S-FM 220: Empire

[MattZed]

....I waited 7 hours....for this....
So disappointed

You can post some thoughts of your own. We're both here now and can have a discussion.

[Mesk514]

Meh... bare with me this is all coming from me on my phone high as fuck at almost 5am
.
.
.
.
.
.
SINO GOT ROASTED

[Calix]

Great, but what exactly are your reads? I see a bunch of waffling and talk about lynches but very few definitive stances on the players here.

I am never lynching Unknown and I am extremely skeptical that you consider him your strongest scum-read despite everything. That train is also not happening today so I disapprove of you splitting the trains.

Please state your order of lynch preference out of RLVG, Mesk, Sino, deathworlds with reasoning as these are the current trains. I want reads, not "this player is shitty and thus can die first" posts.

Productivity is not a town tell, otherwise I'd be confirmed town every game. Thus I find your SP/ Sino reads to be weak.

I also second Mesk that this was a rather disappointing post if you were summing up 600 posts.

Thoughts on the posts since I was last here:

RLVG and Mesk are by far the weakest links here. Mesk is basically entirely fluff and one-line un-expanded points, while RLVG spent most of his time doing setup spec while having not read the setup correctly. I consider both of these acceptable lynches if we cannot come to a consensus on scum.

SW seems to be continuously missing my point about why I scumread SJ, and I really don't know how to make it more clear that I scumread him for being shallow. I was only bringing up the point about him leaving because Calix kept asking.

On SJ, he's probably my next person to try a deep read on. I didn't like what I saw from him initially, but I'm open to the idea that we simply have clashing playstyles and he's just coming at things from a completely different angle and being maligned for things that don't really matter, much like Sino was.

Calix has made it very clear that she scumreads Sino for almost every vote being a vote back on someone who had voted him, and perhaps a general attitude of defensiveness. While I'm not going to deny that these are fine reasons to read a person in general, for this instance I feel they miss the broader picture of Sino's agenda; Sino has definitely been pro-town through his productive directing of discussion. Sure, scum can be pro-town as well, but I would expect scum to be "pro-town with a hidden agenda," something like trying to discredit someone via fairly logical but subtly overstated attacks. I really just don't see Sino as doing anything other than calling out misreps. At worst, Sino's agenda is to survive, which could be weakly scum-indicative, but he's certainly not the easily-agitated scum Calix is painting him as.

I don't like Calix's read, but I don't scumread her for it for the time being. Calix is employing perfectly valid tells, and while I'd normally suspect her as scum for being a bit overbearing in these and not seeing the nuance or looking in to why someone might be town, I've been burned before. My gut is that this is Tracer all over again, and until I give Calix another pass, she's at worst neut to me, and definitely on my "would not lynch" list.

DW's posts have not phased me. Neither have ika's. Both, at this point, are rather null to me.

I like SP's turnaround from his opening posts, at least at a glance. He's certainly being productive, and probably more maligned than he deserves.

yzb just bothers me on a gut level. Focuses on points others have already repeated and that are mostly irrelevant. For now, an acceptable lynch, but I would put him after the players I've already listed.

[Mesk514]

no but in all serious, I'm kind of disappointed... it kinda seemed like your reads were "the best lynch for today are the people who didn't do what everyone was expecting"
Which basically means we're still on the topic of policy lynching
Then you kinda cruised on by ika and dw... "their shit didn't phase me"... but you found a needle in a haystack with an unknown read

[Calix]

no but in all serious, I'm kind of disappointed... it kinda seemed like your reads were "the best lynch for today are the people who didn't do what everyone was expecting"
Which basically means we're still on the topic of policy lynching
Then you kinda cruised on by ika and dw... "their shit didn't phase me"... but you found a needle in a haystack with an unknown read

What do you mean with the part about Unknown? Do you agree with it or what?

[Mesk514]

What do you mean with the part about Unknown? Do you agree with it or what?

I don't agree with it. What I'm trying to say is I feel like mattzed stuck his hand way far up his ass and pulled out that unknown read

[MattZed]

Great, but what exactly are your reads? I see a bunch of waffling and talk about lynches but very few definitive stances on the players here.

I am never lynching Unknown and I am extremely skeptical that you consider him your strongest scum-read despite everything. That train is also not happening today so I disapprove of you splitting the trains.

Please state your order of lynch preference out of RLVG, Mesk, Sino, deathworlds with reasoning as these are the current trains. I want reads, not "this player is shitty and thus can die first" posts.

Productivity is not a town tell, otherwise I'd be confirmed town every game. Thus I find your SP/ Sino reads to be weak.

I also second Mesk that this was a rather disappointing post if you were summing up 600 posts.

The fact that you and Unknown seem to really like each bothers me immensely. Not in the "I think you are buddying" sort of way, but in the "my scumreads and townleads getting along is never a good sign." Unknown goes for basically nothing except for cheap shots backed up with 0 analysis of actual posts. Sure, that's more of a playstyle critique than necessarily an alignment insight, but it's bad play that's pinged me several times and it has so far served to hurt town. I've seen him do better, so the explanation that he's unconfident scum trying to appear helpful but not wanting to say much just can't get out of my head. Although, as for outright scummy play, he was casting shade on Sino right around the time Sino got that nonsensically-fast train, (which I would prefer you see incorporate somehow into your read of him) and is in general falling into siding against those that seem generally unpopular.

Sino is an absolute no-lynch from me and currently my strongest townread, largely as a result of being my deepest read.

Mesk, and RLVG, with not a strong preference between RLVG and Mesk. Mesk and RLVG for being basically useless.

My eyes literally gloss over whenever I read a DW post. tbh, gonna ISO him right now.

[Calix]

I don't agree with it. What I'm trying to say is I feel like mattzed stuck his hand way far up his ass and pulled out that unknown read

Alright, that makes more sense.

[MattZed]

no but in all serious, I'm kind of disappointed... it kinda seemed like your reads were "the best lynch for today are the people who didn't do what everyone was expecting"
Which basically means we're still on the topic of policy lynching
Then you kinda cruised on by ika and dw... "their shit didn't phase me"... but you found a needle in a haystack with an unknown read

Reading Sino's posts again included a lot of reading Unknown's posts again, because they had a lot of interaction. And in that interaction, strongly disliked Unknown's posts, partially on a play level and partially on a "this looks very much like TvS where Unknown is the S" level. My stronger reads go in the direction of the posts I've read the most thoroughly, which right now have included Unknown's posts.

[Calix]

The fact that you and Unknown seem to really like each bothers me immensely. Not in the "I think you are buddying" sort of way, but in the "my scumreads and townleads getting along is never a good sign." Unknown goes for basically nothing except for cheap shots backed up with 0 analysis of actual posts. Sure, that's more of a playstyle critique than necessarily an alignment insight, but it's bad play that's pinged me several times and it has so far served to hurt town. I've seen him do better, so the explanation that he's unconfident scum trying to appear helpful but not wanting to say much just can't get out of my head. Although, as for outright scummy play, he was casting shade on Sino right around the time Sino got that nonsensically-fast train, (which I would prefer you see incorporate somehow into your read of him) and is in general falling into siding against those that seem generally unpopular.

Sino is an absolute no-lynch from me and currently my strongest townread, largely as a result of being my deepest read.

Mesk, and RLVG, with not a strong preference between RLVG and Mesk. Mesk and RLVG for being basically useless.

My eyes literally gloss over whenever I read a DW post. tbh, gonna ISO him right now.

It's called mind-melding, which is something I've had with SW too. Strong indicator that they are of the same alignment as myself.

You are criticising how he posts, not what he posts.

"Underwhelming" is a poor indicator of alignment.

If I recall correctly, Sino was voted by SW, Unknown, SP and myself. The only one who I dislike there is SP as the other two are strong town-reads. Thus I have concluded that the fast train was a result of multiple players picking up on Sino's extremely scum-motivated play.

The reason that I unvoted secondpassing earlier was because of the lack of a pure train.

Useless isn't a read

I can't wait to experience what it's like to take drugs by reading your DW ISO. I'll be waiting ;)

[Mesk514]

I can't wait to experience what it's like to take drugs by reading your DW ISO. I'll be waiting ;)

Sorry my dear, but you've already been experiencing the effects of cocaine... you've been waiting for it to hit but to be honest you've already hit your climax a long time ago... it's not gonna get better.. that's why they call it chasing the dragon

[Sino]

If I recall correctly, Sino was voted by SW, Unknown, SP and myself. The only one who I dislike there is SP as the other two are strong town-reads. Thus I have concluded that the fast train was a result of multiple players picking up on Sino's extremely scum-motivated play.

If i recall correctly SJ, and deathworlds also joined at some point, althought it seemed like deathworlds just wrote my name by mistake.

Reading Sino's posts again included a lot of reading Unknown's posts again, because they had a lot of interaction. And in that interaction, strongly disliked Unknown's posts, partially on a play level and partially on a "this looks very much like TvS where Unknown is the S" level. My stronger reads go in the direction of the posts I've read the most thoroughly, which right now have included Unknown's posts.

My read on Unknown is more gut than anything, but, as i said, all those "i like" and "i don't like" posts coming from him was basically how he played in Fringe, he even forgot things back then.

Also are you completely caught up ? I said things that should weaken your town read on me, namely the "not denying i'm scum" part, you called up SJ for doing the exact same thing if i remember correctly.

[Calix]

If i recall correctly SJ, and deathworlds also joined at some point, althought it seemed like deathworlds just wrote my name by mistake.



My read on Unknown is more gut than anything, but, as i said, all those "i like" and "i don't like" posts coming from him was basically how he played in Fringe, he even forgot things back then.

Also are you completely caught up ? I said things that should weaken your town read on me, namely the "not denying i'm scum" part, you called up SJ for doing the exact same thing if i remember correctly.

Thanks for proving my point, I guess, since I town-read SJ as well.

DW's vote doesn't count as he meant to vote for SP.

So let's see.

You are an extremely scummy player.

Almost every single person who has ever voted for you is a town-read.

Despite your reams of scummy behaviour, you have plenty of questionable players defending you for shoddy reasons which don't show town motivation.

If you were town, this would be less likely because the scum would be all for me attacking and trying to mislynch you as I am also town.

(see Mesk who everyone is fine attacking based on shit-tier reasoning, yet people are hesitant to vote for you)

Since that isn't the case, this is a decent indicator of scum.

[MattZed]

It's called mind-melding, which is something I've had with SW too. Strong indicator that they are of the same alignment as myself.

You are criticising how he posts, not what he posts.

"Underwhelming" is a poor indicator of alignment.

If I recall correctly, Sino was voted by SW, Unknown, SP and myself. The only one who I dislike there is SP as the other two are strong town-reads. Thus I have concluded that the fast train was a result of multiple players picking up on Sino's extremely scum-motivated play.

The reason that I unvoted secondpassing earlier was because of the lack of a pure train.

Useless isn't a read

I can't wait to experience what it's like to take drugs by reading your DW ISO. I'll be waiting ;)

I'm just going to say "eh" on mind melding. Sure, it can be a decent indicator of alignment, but I wouldn't swear by it, especially given the tendency of competent scum on this site to strongly prefer pocketing.

I criticized what he left our of his posts (analysis and evidence to support his claims) and the agenda that appears behind it. Yes, I dislike his posting style so far, but I also find it scum indicative to repeatedly misrep someone with one-liners.

I never characterized something as "underwhelming"?

Sure, you can townread the people on Sino's train, (you're missing my vote, FWIW) but you should also be baking in some chance that your reads are off and that there could be more scum on the train than your reads suggest. And even if it is an all-town train, it was a train caused on someone who was defended by no one at the time. Scum don't have to hop on a train; they can sit back and let it happen. It's an under-considered possibility for you.

Useless isn't an alignment read, no, but it's an accurate assessment of the slots and my opinions on them.

[MattZed]

Also are you completely caught up ? I said things that should weaken your town read on me, namely the "not denying i'm scum" part, you called up SJ for doing the exact same thing if i remember correctly.

I've read, but not necessarily thoroughly, the posts since I disappeared. I didn't notice a post where you didn't deny being scum, but if you'd do me the favor of quoting it now?

[Calix]

I'm just going to say "eh" on mind melding. Sure, it can be a decent indicator of alignment, but I wouldn't swear by it, especially given the tendency of competent scum on this site to strongly prefer pocketing.

I criticized what he left our of his posts (analysis and evidence to support his claims) and the agenda that appears behind it. Yes, I dislike his posting style so far, but I also find it scum indicative to repeatedly misrep someone with one-liners.

I never characterized something as "underwhelming"?

Sure, you can townread the people on Sino's train, (you're missing my vote, FWIW) but you should also be baking in some chance that your reads are off and that there could be more scum on the train than your reads suggest. And even if it is an all-town train, it was a train caused on someone who was defended by no one at the time. Scum don't have to hop on a train; they can sit back and let it happen. It's an under-considered possibility for you.

Useless isn't an alignment read, no, but it's an accurate assessment of the slots and my opinions on them.

If someone posts a thing that you agree with before you post it, that's a legit mind meld.

You said that Unknown 'could do better' or what have you, which implies that he's under-performing.

I have given more detailed thoughts on the Sino train.

I think that the difference in how Sino is treated vs Mesk is telling. Perhaps you should consider that he is an important scum role who the scum don't wish to lose, my dear.

[MattZed]

If someone posts a thing that you agree with before you post it, that's a legit mind meld.

You said that Unknown 'could do better' or what have you, which implies that he's under-performing.

I have given more detailed thoughts on the Sino train.

I think that the difference in how Sino is treated vs Mesk is telling. Perhaps you should consider that he is an important scum role who the scum don't wish to lose, my dear.

I'm not opposed to the idea that Mesk is getting shat on for her occasionally caustic playstyle because it's an easy claim to hide behind as scum, but I don't see where you're coming from on Sino. Who is treating Sino well or giving emphatic townreads on him other than me?

[Sino]

I've read, but not necessarily thoroughly, the posts since I disappeared. I didn't notice a post where you didn't deny being scum, but if you'd do me the favor of quoting it now?

I was referring to my interaction with Calix before logging off yesterday :

I'm a cat and you're an obese mouse with nine tails.

What can I say when you don't even deny that you're scummy as shit?

I'm not denying my play was horrible, at least i know what i need to look at to improve as a player.

But my earlier comment was just sarcasm.

I've missed being sarcastic with you Calix, it's even funnier when you're ready to do anything to lynch me ;)

See, this is the most compelling argument to save your hide that you've made so far

You've already learned that OMGUSing five times as scum is a horrible move that will make everyone suspect you.

You've also learned to state a scum-read on a player first BEFORE voting for them.

Makes sense to keep you around to lynch D2 to see what other tips on How To Scum you pick up before your team inevitably gets curb-stomped.

Heh heh.

Babysteps dear ;)

The best part is that you're agreeing that you're scum.

Hilarious.

Can people wake up and vote for the player who is literally agreeing with the scum-reads on him? lol

He's not Mikecall.

What did Mikecall do ?

I don't see how that's a bad thing since lynching him confirms that he's scum.

How many people agreed they're scum as of now ? You, Mesk, Unknown, the guy MZ was pushing (SJ iirc) and now me

Mainly this, i feel like this interaction ressembles the one you've had with SJ earlier, something you would call me out on.

[MattZed]

Let's consider two things.

First, it was a reaction test. I threatened a turbo lynch, but I did not do one.
Second: would a scum turbo lynch?

Want to flag this while going through the DW ISO. Here, SP claims that offering the possibility of an easy lynch on Sino was a "reaction test," but also suggests scum wouldn't actually "turbo lynch." (which I presume means hammer prematurely) Why would SP bother reaction testing if he didn't think it would actually work on scum?

[Calix]

I'm not opposed to the idea that Mesk is getting shat on for her occasionally caustic playstyle because it's an easy claim to hide behind as scum, but I don't see where you're coming from on Sino. Who is treating Sino well or giving emphatic townreads on him other than me?

Did you skip over #508 where I pointed out DW's extremely dodgy progression on Sino where he low-key defends Sino and talks on his behalf without trying to look like he's doing that? lol

secondpassing had him as his strongest town-read (seems to be weakened now but it still exists)

ika town-reads him.

yzb defended him as well.

Unknown seems to have changed his mind based on meta.

Are you even trying here or are you just looking for excuses? Because that was a really dumb question.

[Sino]

Did you skip over #508 where I pointed out DW's extremely dodgy progression on Sino where he low-key defends Sino and talks on his behalf without trying to look like he's doing that? lol

secondpassing had him as his strongest town-read (seems to be weakened now but it still exists)

ika town-reads him.

yzb defended him as well.

Unknown seems to have changed his mind based on meta.

Are you even trying here or are you just looking for excuses? Because that was a really dumb question.

So you have one strong town read townreading me, and you didn't even mention that in this post :

It's called mind-melding, which is something I've had with SW too. Strong indicator that they are of the same alignment as myself.

You are criticising how he posts, not what he posts.

"Underwhelming" is a poor indicator of alignment.

If I recall correctly, Sino was voted by SW, Unknown, SP and myself. The only one who I dislike there is SP as the other two are strong town-reads. Thus I have concluded that the fast train was a result of multiple players picking up on Sino's extremely scum-motivated play.

The reason that I unvoted secondpassing earlier was because of the lack of a pure train.

Useless isn't a read

I can't wait to experience what it's like to take drugs by reading your DW ISO. I'll be waiting ;)

Yes, Unknown voted me but it looks like he's changed his mind now.

[Calix]

So you have one strong town read townreading me, and you didn't even mention that in this post :



Yes, Unknown voted me but it looks like he's changed his mind now.

Does this sound like Sino scum-reads me?

Because it sure doesn't to me since all he does is discredit, discredit, discredit!

Read this post. Actually look at what he's trying to do here.

All he cares about is trying to get me to unvote him.

[MattZed]

I was referring to my interaction with Calix before logging off yesterday :

Mainly this, i feel like this interaction ressembles the one you've had with SJ earlier, something you would call me out on.

Yeah, I just don't read that as failing to deny being scum. The closest thing is where you say "Babysteps dear," but in context that appears to be referring to improving your play, not necessarily improving your scumplay in particular.

But sure, there is the fact that you're not yelling "OMG GUYS I'M NOT SCUM" from the top of your lungs. But this understanding misses the subtlety of what I didn't like about SP:

For starters, SP used the joke during their opener and then dropped off. For hours, that was all I had to read them on, and it was bad. (I'd still need to look into what they've done since, like the validity of those readwalls) But moreover, the idea that he'd joke about being scum as scum fit what had been otherwise going on with his slot: he bumped a train up to L-2 without reasoning, (which was actually probably over-reacted to for being only L-2, but that's a matter for when I finish the DW ISO) in fact encouraging scummy behavior. And then by not denying that he could be the one scum role that can truly afford to make such plays, (or not refuting why that suggestion could fit) he was being brazenly anti-town.

And that's the main point that stuck to me: he was brazen about it. You made a coy joke in response to what was clearly you and Calix not agreeing. SP, on the other hand, gave nothing to establish his disagreement with the suggestion, and in response to further follow-ups he refused to provide more insight.

Context matters.

[MattZed]

Did you skip over #508 where I pointed out DW's extremely dodgy progression on Sino where he low-key defends Sino and talks on his behalf without trying to look like he's doing that? lol

secondpassing had him as his strongest town-read (seems to be weakened now but it still exists)

ika town-reads him.

yzb defended him as well.

Unknown seems to have changed his mind based on meta.

Are you even trying here or are you just looking for excuses? Because that was a really dumb question.

These are mostly after the posts I looked closely at, but my point is that you're arguing that Mesk has been much more maligned than Sino, and I simply don't see the evidence for it.

Case in point: Sino currently has more votes.

[MattZed]

Does this sound like Sino scum-reads me?

Because it sure doesn't to me since all he does is discredit, discredit, discredit!

Read this post. Actually look at what he's trying to do here.

All he cares about is trying to get me to unvote him.

So you feel that, if Sino were town, he should be scumreading you based on his other statements? Your argument is then that he's being fake (for concealing a true read on you) and defensive, (from being cordial to those voting him) and from this you draw your scumread, yes?

Checking to make sure I understand where you're going with this.

[Sino]

Yeah, I just don't read that as failing to deny being scum. The closest thing is where you say "Babysteps dear," but in context that appears to be referring to improving your play, not necessarily improving your scumplay in particular.

But sure, there is the fact that you're not yelling "OMG GUYS I'M NOT SCUM" from the top of your lungs. But this understanding misses the subtlety of what I didn't like about SP:

For starters, SP used the joke during their opener and then dropped off. For hours, that was all I had to read them on, and it was bad. (I'd still need to look into what they've done since, like the validity of those readwalls) But moreover, the idea that he'd joke about being scum as scum fit what had been otherwise going on with his slot: he bumped a train up to L-2 without reasoning, (which was actually probably over-reacted to for being only L-2, but that's a matter for when I finish the DW ISO) in fact encouraging scummy behavior. And then by not denying that he could be the one scum role that can truly afford to make such plays, (or not refuting why that suggestion could fit) he was being brazenly anti-town.

And that's the main point that stuck to me: he was brazen about it. You made a coy joke in response to what was clearly you and Calix not agreeing. SP, on the other hand, gave nothing to establish his disagreement with the suggestion, and in response to further follow-ups he refused to provide more insight.

Context matters.

Indeed, but if i remember correctly, correct me if i'm wrong, you also had this interaction with SuperJack earlier in the game.

[Calix]

These are mostly after the posts I looked closely at, but my point is that you're arguing that Mesk has been much more maligned than Sino, and I simply don't see the evidence for it.

Case in point: Sino currently has more votes.

Case in point: Mesk's train is considerably shittier. Nobody has brought a single point for how Mesk is acting in a scum-motivated manner.

RLVG's case boils down to "she uses WIFOM, burn the witch!"

I've pointed out how wishy-washy DW's read on Mesk is and how his points suck.

Sino also 'scum-reads' her although his reasoning is insanely biased because EMERGERD IT'S MESK.

Everyone else has her at null or "wouldn't mind policy lynching"

The only ones actually town-reading her are the SW/ Unknown/ Calix trio.

So I disagree.

[Calix]

So you feel that, if Sino were town, he should be scumreading you based on his other statements? Your argument is then that he's being fake (for concealing a true read on you) and defensive, (from being cordial to those voting him) and from this you draw your scumread, yes?

Checking to make sure I understand where you're going with this.

My point was that Sino claims to be scum-reading me, yet he doesn't treat me like a scum-read at all. This suggests that he's lying about scum-reading me because he is scum bullshitting it.

I would like to submit his stated reasoning for scum-reading me as evidence of this. I find it hard to believe that someone scum-reads me based on a comment made about the Neutral; participating in the chat; not pushing Mesk to participate.

If you're referring to his pattern of overly reactive play (five OMGUS incidences!) then that is also a large factor.

[MattZed]

Indeed, but if i remember correctly, correct me if i'm wrong, you also had this interaction with SuperJack earlier in the game.

This was relatively early, but I don't see how that's relevant?

Case in point: Mesk's train is considerably shittier. Nobody has brought a single point for how Mesk is acting in a scum-motivated manner.

RLVG's case boils down to "she uses WIFOM, burn the witch!"

I've pointed out how wishy-washy DW's read on Mesk is and how his points suck.

Sino also 'scum-reads' her although his reasoning is insanely biased because EMERGERD IT'S MESK.

Everyone else has her at null or "wouldn't mind policy lynching"

The only ones actually town-reading her are the SW/ Unknown/ Calix trio.

So I disagree.

Even if we're arguing who has more townreads, it's just the case that Sino is the more polarizing candidate, having both more town and scumreaders. Which is completely fair given Sino's significantly higher number of substantive posts.

Mesk still isn't magically getting votes without defenders. Her defenders, especially you, respond in proportion to how strongly their feel their townread is being threatened.

My point was that Sino claims to be scum-reading me, yet he doesn't treat me like a scum-read at all. This suggests that he's lying about scum-reading me because he is scum bullshitting it.

I would like to submit his stated reasoning for scum-reading me as evidence of this. I find it hard to believe that someone scum-reads me based on a comment made about the Neutral; participating in the chat; not pushing Mesk to participate.

If you're referring to his pattern of overly reactive play (five OMGUS incidences!) then that is also a large factor.

But how do you know it's not merely Sino's style to prod at his scumreads to make them look foolish and illogical rather than going straight on trying to start a train on them? Conditioning on Sino being town, diffusing you is certainly the smarter move than outright going after you today, given that won't happen and would in fact just look like another OMGUS.

(I will concede that in general being nice to your scumreads is mildly scum-indicative)

I am still modestly bothered by Sino not posting much in the way of his own reads, though.

[Sino]

This was relatively early, but I don't see how that's relevant?

I feel like these interactions look alike.

I am still modestly bothered by Sino not posting much in the way of his own reads, though.

I really don't understand what you're saying here.

[Calix]

This was relatively early, but I don't see how that's relevant?


Even if we're arguing who has more townreads, it's just the case that Sino is the more polarizing candidate, having both more town and scumreaders. Which is completely fair given Sino's significantly higher number of substantive posts.

Mesk still isn't magically getting votes without defenders. Her defenders, especially you, respond in proportion to how strongly their feel their townread is being threatened.


But how do you know it's not merely Sino's style to prod at his scumreads to make them look foolish and illogical rather than going straight on trying to start a train on them? Conditioning on Sino being town, diffusing you is certainly the smarter move than outright going after you today, given that won't happen and would in fact just look like another OMGUS.

(I will concede that in general being nice to your scumreads is mildly scum-indicative)

I am still modestly bothered by Sino not posting much in the way of his own reads, though.

Uh yes, I am defending her. What of it? Why would I say "oh I'm defending Mesk, so the scum might be defending her" which is what you're implying here???

Because I've read other games that Sino was in and he's never been this scummy. Funnily enough, he's also never rolled scum before. Gee golly I wonder if this is related!

He's ALREADY OMGUS'd me on several occasions. His first vote was after I voted for him (this is okay by itself given the context) but then he unvotes after I admit I made a mistake, completely drops the scum-read and ONLY picks it back up again after I vote for him again.

It is insanely obvious. I am astounded that people are seeing this and thinking "hm yes this is very town behaviour"

[MattZed]

I really don't understand what you're saying here.

You aren't pushing for us to fry anyone you scumread, and that bothers me.

Uh yes, I am defending her. What of it? Why would I say "oh I'm defending Mesk, so the scum might be defending her" which is what you're implying here???

Because I've read other games that Sino was in and he's never been this scummy. Funnily enough, he's also never rolled scum before. Gee golly I wonder if this is related!

He's ALREADY OMGUS'd me on several occasions. His first vote was after I voted for him (this is okay by itself given the context) but then he unvotes after I admit I made a mistake, completely drops the scum-read and ONLY picks it back up again after I vote for him again.

It is insanely obvious. I am astounded that people are seeing this and thinking "hm yes this is very town behaviour"

No, I'm not implying you're scum for defending Mesk. My point is that Mesk is being well-defended in a manner similar to how Sino is being defended, so I don't follow your point about the difference between the Mesk and Sino trains.

A huge degree of the "obviousness" of Sino being scum for you comes from a meta read, that he simply doesn't play town like this. I am not experienced with Sino's play, so if you want to argue that he's playing much more coy than before, you'll need to illustrate how.

I don't see the problem with him unvoting after you unvote him. If he scumread you for misrepping him, why wouldn't he unvote you for admitting it was a misrep? I don't follow.

[Unknown1234]

Matt your entire read on me is that I'm either underperforming, lack reasoning or you don't like my posting style. I find it hard to believe that you haven't seen any reasoning from me so that quite bothers me.

Also, given I was the only read you didn't have earlier and now I'm your strongest read is very interesting.

[Sino]

You aren't pushing for us to fry anyone you scumread, and that bothers me.

You're already in an argument with one of my scumreads, i'm not gonna interrupt you, either way it's productive.

[Calix]

A huge degree of the "obviousness" of Sino being scum for you comes from a meta read, that he simply doesn't play town like this. I am not experienced with Sino's play, so if you want to argue that he's playing much more coy than before, you'll need to illustrate how.

Uh no, he's playing in an extremely scum-motivated manner as I've explained 50675097 times. His meta is just the cherry on the cake, not the entire fucking cake.

Go and read S-FM Lazy.

Observe the HUGE difference in how he's playing.

Vote Sino.

This would make my life so much easier.

I don't see the problem with him unvoting after you unvote him. If he scumread you for misrepping him, why wouldn't he unvote you for admitting it was a misrep? I don't follow.

That's an oversimplification of my argument since you completely missed the part where he doesn't bother pushing me at all until I vote for him again. And then he responds to that by voting me after I vote him first. AKA he does that two times and it forms a pattern of reactive play.

Not a fan of that.

[Calix]

You're already in an argument with one of my scumreads, i'm not gonna interrupt you, either way it's productive.

"I will let someone who isn't on my scum team do the work so that he bears the brunt of Calix's responses and not me."

That's what I just read.

[RLVG]

Let's be honest here.

My performance is lackluster as fuck. I didn't even properly read the setup correctly which made me a good argument magnet lol.



What I find scummy however, is players willing to scumread me based on that alone with not a single thought of a dumb-tell of that if the player didn't read the role correctly, the likeliness of being that role is dramatically decreased. Call it the biasis of "if you're X role, know everything about X".
The opposite is also true, acting like you don't know it 100% to make it look like you're not it - but not a single call out on that either.
Funny thing? Players are also willing to policy me for those reasons, without thinking the dumb-tell throughly.

Not only that, what the hell, I'm townread by my lackluster performance and not for the right reasons, like what is going on.
Are you seriously saying I'm town based on me being inactive? I'm not lurking, but legitimately inactive because of FUCKING CHRISTMAS. It's NAI.

Congratulations! You've just inversed read meta.





Calix has been playing the "You're not a professional" card in this game, calling out everyone for a half-arsed argument and not doing the game correctly, as opposed to supporting it by fixing things OR debunk it by actual material as to why it's not working.
She called me out on me calling out on Mesk with the "cried wolf", saying that it's NAI. What she's not doing though, is support or debunk the fact that this isn't traditional townplay and that there's an unecessary amount of WIFOM involved for someone claiming as Citizen and publicly expressing how town they are and even using their own meta. I call that anti-game and also scummy for using self-concious self-meta in advantage of the situation.

Because of this, Calix get the feel of that she might not have the entire town's interest - but not in a direct scum position either, biasing a read with a lean-neutral. I don't necessarily read her as a scum yet though, but neutral is something I can keep at heart for now.

Mesk for reasons mentioned, will also remain voted.
Are you seriously going to let a Citizen pull out WIFOM shit like this? Mesk even said (from what I remember) "If I don't claim Citizen, I'm scum", and "When I claim Citizen, I'm actually Citizen or TPR" - extremely self-concious and forced. They're attempting to create a meta for free towncred in a shitty way.
That's where my "boy who cried wolf" counter comes in, there's a point when it's too forced and I don't believe them as well.



SuperJack has been somewhat fencesitting. Stating random stuff that doesn't quite add to the game, some fluff such as "why don't you vote yourself", votes MattZed for reason of trying too hard and there's not much more to actually say in that argument, and simply asks people to do stuff for them.
I don't see a town motivated player and one who attempts to be neutral so that they can sway an opinion later, only moving on to the low hanging fruits.



Secondpassing has a questionable townread on me, I can't fathom as to why the presented reasons are legitimate reasons of townreading a player such as myself. For this, Secondpassing receives an unique ???-Lean.



Also, to fuck this game up : I'm a Citizen with no special abilities, and I'm not a leader. A random pleb. I can't add much to the game at all other than be part of discussion, which I have somewhat failed on - and I'm being townread on that.

[Sino]

"I will let someone who isn't on my scum team do the work so that he bears the brunt of Calix's responses and not me."

That's what I just read.

We get it, you scumread me, you're always gonna read what best suits you anyways.

[Calix]

@Unknown1234 it would be really nice if you switched your vote to deathworlds/ Sino. Not really feeling a RLVG lynch today with those two around.

Same applies for MZ. I still don't know his thoughts on DW.

[Calix]

We get it, you scumread me, you're always gonna read what best suits you anyways.

That wasn't a stretch. You literally said that you were letting MZ argue with me instead of arguing with me yourself.

[Unknown1234]

That claim though.

-vote Deathworlds

[MattZed]

Matt your entire read on me is that I'm either underperforming, lack reasoning or you don't like my posting style. I find it hard to believe that you haven't seen any reasoning from me so that quite bothers me.

Also, given I was the only read you didn't have earlier and now I'm your strongest read is very interesting.

If you're caught up, then you'd know I read you more closely because I was ISO'ing Sino, and you had a lot of interaction with him the first 200 posts of the game. You're my strongest scumread by virtue of the fact that you're the scummiest of the people I've bothered to read more deeply.

You may feel you've been giving reasons, but you really haven't, at least in the early game. A lot of posts were along the lines of "I feel such-and-such" without explaining where you got such-and-such feeling from. And wtf was with the misrepping of Sino?

Yes, you are underperforming for the S-FM champion and I don't like your playstyle. BUT THIS IS NOT WHY I AM VOTING YOU. (although I would hope that even if you're town my vote would encourage you to be more thorough)

My vote is because you used a plethora of "I feel" one-liners to cast doubt without actually having to make an argument.

I stand by my read and my vote.

[RLVG]

fact that you're the scummiest of the people I've bothered to read more deeply.

Probably pulling a strawman, but doesn't this make it extremely biased as there's several players you have a lacking read on?

[Sino]

That wasn't a stretch. You literally said that you were letting MZ argue with me instead of arguing with me yourself.

I've tried to argue with you, and i'm also considering the possibility of you convincing MZ to vote me, as i said, either way it's productive.

Let's be honest here.

My performance is lackluster as fuck. I didn't even properly read the setup correctly which made me a good argument magnet lol.



What I find scummy however, is players willing to scumread me based on that alone with not a single thought of a dumb-tell of that if the player didn't read the role correctly, the likeliness of being that role is dramatically decreased. Call it the biasis of "if you're X role, know everything about X".
The opposite is also true, acting like you don't know it 100% to make it look like you're not it - but not a single call out on that either.
Funny thing? Players are also willing to policy me for those reasons, without thinking the dumb-tell throughly.

Not only that, what the hell, I'm townread by my lackluster performance and not for the right reasons, like what is going on.
Are you seriously saying I'm town based on me being inactive? I'm not lurking, but legitimately inactive because of FUCKING CHRISTMAS. It's NAI.

Congratulations! You've just inversed read meta.





Calix has been playing the "You're not a professional" card in this game, calling out everyone for a half-arsed argument and not doing the game correctly, as opposed to supporting it by fixing things OR debunk it by actual material as to why it's not working.
She called me out on me calling out on Mesk with the "cried wolf", saying that it's NAI. What she's not doing though, is support or debunk the fact that this isn't traditional townplay and that there's an unecessary amount of WIFOM involved for someone claiming as Citizen and publicly expressing how town they are and even using their own meta. I call that anti-game and also scummy for using self-concious self-meta in advantage of the situation.

Because of this, Calix get the feel of that she might not have the entire town's interest - but not in a direct scum position either, biasing a read with a lean-neutral. I don't necessarily read her as a scum yet though, but neutral is something I can keep at heart for now.

Mesk for reasons mentioned, will also remain voted.
Are you seriously going to let a Citizen pull out WIFOM shit like this? Mesk even said (from what I remember) "If I don't claim Citizen, I'm scum", and "When I claim Citizen, I'm actually Citizen or TPR" - extremely self-concious and forced. They're attempting to create a meta for free towncred in a shitty way.
That's where my "boy who cried wolf" counter comes in, there's a point when it's too forced and I don't believe them as well.



SuperJack has been somewhat fencesitting. Stating random stuff that doesn't quite add to the game, some fluff such as "why don't you vote yourself", votes MattZed for reason of trying too hard and there's not much more to actually say in that argument, and simply asks people to do stuff for them.
I don't see a town motivated player and one who attempts to be neutral so that they can sway an opinion later, only moving on to the low hanging fruits.



Secondpassing has a questionable townread on me, I can't fathom as to why the presented reasons are legitimate reasons of townreading a player such as myself. For this, Secondpassing receives an unique ???-Lean.



Also, to fuck this game up : I'm a Citizen with no special abilities, and I'm not a leader. A random pleb. I can't add much to the game at all other than be part of discussion, which I have somewhat failed on - and I'm being townread on that.

Now that's interesting, why do you feel the need to claim right away when you only have one vote on you ?

[Unknown1234]

You fail to provide examples of how I miss repoed Sino. I would actually like to see you explain this.

I know when you call me out for saying "I feel" is just an easy attack on how I type directly and not to how it's scummy or in any relation to my scum play. That's pretty sad.

I don't know why you say I haven't made thoughts still. Just because I haven't made long wall posts with a summary of my thoughts does not make then any weaker or stronger. Other people have found them.

[Calix]

What I find scummy however, is players willing to scumread me based on that alone with not a single thought of a dumb-tell of that if the player didn't read the role correctly, the likeliness of being that role is dramatically decreased. Call it the biasis of "if you're X role, know everything about X".
The opposite is also true, acting like you don't know it 100% to make it look like you're not it - but not a single call out on that either.
Funny thing? Players are also willing to policy me for those reasons, without thinking the dumb-tell throughly.

Not only that, what the hell, I'm townread by my lackluster performance and not for the right reasons, like what is going on.
Are you seriously saying I'm town based on me being inactive? I'm not lurking, but legitimately inactive because of FUCKING CHRISTMAS. It's NAI.

On the one hand, you sound extremely reactive here since you're largely noting how people are treating you and using that to form reads.

However, noting the weird-ass town-reads on yourself is actually pretty townie.

Calix has been playing the "You're not a professional" card in this game, calling out everyone for a half-arsed argument and not doing the game correctly, as opposed to supporting it by fixing things OR debunk it by actual material as to why it's not working.
She called me out on me calling out on Mesk with the "cried wolf", saying that it's NAI. What she's not doing though, is support or debunk the fact that this isn't traditional townplay and that there's an unecessary amount of WIFOM involved for someone claiming as Citizen and publicly expressing how town they are and even using their own meta. I call that anti-game and also scummy for using self-concious self-meta in advantage of the situation.

Because of this, Calix get the feel of that she might not have the entire town's interest - but not in a direct scum position either, biasing a read with a lean-neutral. I don't necessarily read her as a scum yet though, but neutral is something I can keep at heart for now.

Unconventional town play =/= scum play.

Your main point is that Mesk is claiming to use a truth tell which she claims to only do as town. That's not scummy, just angle-shooting. You're disliking Mesk for the wrong reasons, lol.

I don't really know what your argument against me is so I can't refute it.

SuperJack has been somewhat fencesitting. Stating random stuff that doesn't quite add to the game, some fluff such as "why don't you vote yourself", votes MattZed for reason of trying too hard and there's not much more to actually say in that argument, and simply asks people to do stuff for them.
I don't see a town motivated player and one who attempts to be neutral so that they can sway an opinion later, only moving on to the low hanging fruits.

Not a terrible point. That meaning that I can see how you would reach this conclusion.

Why did you feel the need to claim? You're not in immediate danger of being lynched. I don't think it's a scum tell FWIW but it's still pretty odd timing.

[MattZed]

You're already in an argument with one of my scumreads, i'm not gonna interrupt you, either way it's productive.

"I will let someone who isn't on my scum team do the work so that he bears the brunt of Calix's responses and not me."

That's what I just read.

We get it, you scumread me, you're always gonna read what best suits you anyways.

Sino, my read on you is perpetually weakening because Calix is making fair points against you that you're only strengthening. I don't scumread Calix, nor am I really exposing why someone should or could scumread her. If you have an argument to make, you need to be making it yourself.

@Unknown1234 it would be really nice if you switched your vote to deathworlds/ Sino. Not really feeling a RLVG lynch today with those two around.

Same applies for MZ. I still don't know his thoughts on DW.

I am most of the way through the DW iso. Nothing strong, but a lot of moments of sheer irrationality that I can't help but thinking are forced. I can accept his train for now with a mild scumlean. Sino, as I just said, is weaking but still in the townlean/townread direction.

-vote deathworlds

[Unknown1234]

Probably pulling a strawman, but doesn't this make it extremely biased as there's several players you have a lacking read on?

You aren't wrong. If you checked his previous reads you'll see I'm the only one he didn't read.

[MattZed]

Probably pulling a strawman, but doesn't this make it extremely biased as there's several players you have a lacking read on?

I'm not arguing that Unknown is the scummiest player in the room. I simply found him to be the best choice of my vote at the time.

[Unknown1234]

Actually, that's really convenient how earlier you said you had no read on me because nothing stuck out to you. Now all of a sudden you're saying that at the beginning was when I played the weakest. Are you saying you weren't reading the thread at all then?