Is this site toxic?

[Quick]

I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed. I am not expecting to get any popularity points from staff or otherwise.

I think this site is an acquired taste. Many people are turned off from this site because it is not intellectually stimulating in a way free of people being trolls. I think many people who would otherwise consider this place home are turned off by the silliness and even offensiveness in some cases. In other words, it doesn't have that same type of appeal that other forum mafia sites have. Conversely to this site, MafiaScum is much more serious in its demeanor as a whole. Ad homs are just not tolerated over there like there are here. In other words, MafiaScum has a much more polite atmosphere. Another difference between here and my homesite, is that at PerC, there is a certain level of respect most members show toward each other. Jokes are not made at others expense. Here, there is so much bashing that it gets pretty tiresome for some people. Also, I don't think as many people take being very good at forum Mafia as seriously here as elsewhere. Though in a way, people are concerned about how they do in a game, it is more done with the outlook of how much fun can they have as opposed to how good of plays can they make. This is seen in the way that here, people seem to be obsessed with fancy play syndrome. Naturally, when this doesn't work out, people get extremely frustrated with that person. this breeds contempts overall and people want to "one up" people in plays they see people make so they invent new ways to do wacky unorthodox plays. the flip side of the coin here is that I notice that there is another group here that really does care about doing things strictly based on logic, often times in a much more unoffensive manner. These people are often looked up to for their good play since they don't make many mistakes. But there is kinda a problem in this as well. In my experience and my general outlook on how to play this game of forum mafia, it is best to play in a "correct" way that also takes into account the actual personality of the people they are playing with. On my homesite, people are very good at reading the player and are less concerned with "correct" or "optimal" play. Then we have on MafiaScum that the best players are generally primarily concerned with good solid logical play. The real difference between these sites though, is that there is a sense of elitism on MafiaScum that is just not seen on PerC.

So what I would like to see from this site? Less ad homs and more comradery not just for the people who are the cool kids. I think creating a more established meta on this site that does not have anything to do with degrading players play would be a good start. I would also like to see more people take a stance more catered to reading the player and not the move itself. It is natural to see this on PerC since it is, afterall, a personality site. The logic bent to this site seems good, not the best, but good. I think there is good reading material on this site on how to play the game well. I think if people try to follow that more hardcore than the competition will get better. Lastly, I would like to see more discussion on what is good play on this site specifically. I realize that every site is different and has their own bent a little bit.

MattZed (and I assume other staff as well) realize that this site is not the best at keeping players who come from other places where forum mafia is played. I think we need to start thinking about how we can get people to not only get here and find this site, but stay here. this is meant for a starting point so that discussion can be discussed openly on how to get people here and keep them. These are just some ideas that I have on how to keep people here, and I realize that these solutions may not be good to implement here. But like I said, I think a really good start to keeping people here is to eliminate ad hom attacks.

[Mateo]

Another difference between here and my homesite, is that at PerC, there is a certain level of respect most members show toward each other.

respect has to be earned

[Gyrlander]

Yeah, overall toxicity has to be reduced, but I'm fine having some insults and things like that on FM's as long as they dont heavily hurt someone's feelings.

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Other FM fórums where you just say something like are you dumb and you get 999 warnings take out much of the fun.

Or, at least, that is my oppinion.

[Yukitaka Oni]

respect has to be earned

maxresdefault.jpg

[Quick]

respect has to be earned

OMG, you're serious.

[Firebringer]

i hate bans on insults in games unless it clearly steps out of the line to become personal.
To call someone bad in play and call them a terrible player or w/e related to game is one thing, to call them horrible human being or some personal out of game stuff is another.

I also hate sites like Mafia Universe who warn you for swearing in a game.
Like that is just terrible.

[SuperJack]

i hate bans on insults in games unless it clearly steps out of the line to become personal.
To call someone bad in play and call them a terrible player or w/e related to game is one thing, to call them horrible human being or some personal out of game stuff is another.

I also hate sites like Mafia Universe who warn you for swearing in a game.
Like that is just terrible.

This ++++++

[Cryptonic]

i hate bans on insults in games unless it clearly steps out of the line to become personal.
To call someone bad in play and call them a terrible player or w/e related to game is one thing, to call them horrible human being or some personal out of game stuff is another.

I also hate sites like Mafia Universe who warn you for swearing in a game.
Like that is just terrible.

Amen brutha

If anyone wants to insult me in FM, I'm OK with it. I mean, Ill probably be an asshole back but I'll still love you after the game ends.

[SuperJack]

Amen brutha

If anyone wants to insult me in FM, I'm OK with it. I mean, Ill probably be an asshole back but I'll still love you after the game ends.

What about outside of FM?

[Quick]

Ad homs are totally unnecessary to the game of forum mafia... I can't believe the response I am getting here.

[Cryptonic]

What about outside of FM?

Then it depends on the intention lol

[Cryptonic]

Ad homs are totally unnecessary to the game of forum mafia... I can't believe the response I am getting here.

All fallacies are unnecessary in FM but players make them non-stop. Just because it's a fallacy doesn't mean it should be banned, just means players as adults should weigh the benefit vs consequences to their win con before posting it. Will it get the person riled up and slip? Will that person shut down and not post? Will the town stop listening to your reads?

[DarknessB]

Ad homs are totally unnecessary to the game of forum mafia... I can't believe the response I am getting here.

The playerbase for much of the FM community is the mod, which is kind of the wild wild west of trolling, spamming, insulting, and ridiculous play. Might explain the dynamic you're observing to some extent. It'd be nice if players could be a little more serious sometimes, but that's just the current mix of personalities.

I think BananaCucho summed it up best in her campaign for purple:

When the mod sends players they're sending game throwers. They're sending cheaters, hackers, and some, I assume, are good people.

[SuperJack]

Ad homs are totally unnecessary to the game of forum mafia... I can't believe the response I am getting here.

please explain Ad homs. I keep thinking you are referring too:

[Cryptonic]

A game of Mafia is much more fun when everyone is being themselves. Players get harder to read, makes day chat more interesting, and the game doesn't look like a bunch of autistic robots talking stats and blanket statements.

[Cryptonic]

Obviously no one condones personal attacks in a thread.
But I'm just saying that IRL most normal people talk to their friends in sarcasm, off hand remarks, and insults.
I bet the people who insult in game, that's just their speech pattern.
It's the people who go overboard just because they are online that are a problem.

[DarknessB]

A game of Mafia is much more fun when everyone is being themselves. Players get harder to read, makes day chat more interesting, and the game doesn't look like a bunch of autistic robots talking stats and blanket statements.

Sure, I want to distinguish between people being themselves (good) and people being useless shitposters / lurkers / AFKers in games (bad). Sadly, some players have a default meta of the latter, which is why many more seasoned players have become frustrated and started playing less. No one is asking for amazing scumhunting accuracy, but basic effort would be nice.

[Quick]

All fallacies are unnecessary in FM but players make them non-stop. Just because it's a fallacy doesn't mean it should be banned, just means players as adults should weigh the benefit vs consequences to their win con before posting it. Will it get the person riled up and slip? Will that person shut down and not post? Will the town stop listening to your reads?

Will that person be offended and/or disgruntled and not want to play here again? I am not talking about playful teasing when it is obvious. I am talking about specifically ad hom fallacy and more importantly, ad hom abuse. The difference between other fallacies and ad hom fallacies is that ad hom fallacies have the power to offend like no other logical fallacy because it is an attack on the person and not the argument. If someone makes a red herring, then that is likely not going to offend someone and because there is no personal attachment to this logical fallacy and it is easier to combat. If a person is mean, insensitive and abusive, not only are people not going to want to play with them, but they will get used to using personal attacks as a playstyle and that does not reflect well on this forums image. I am making an argument that people are not going to want to play on a site that tolerates abuse to someone's character. Almost every other place I have played (I say almost because I don't know for sure) has a rule against ad hom attacks in their rule set. This is a precautionary measure the authorities have figured out that works for keeping people happy on their site. Happy people stay, unhappy people ruin it for everyone else so people leave.

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please explain Ad homs.

https://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

[deathworlds]

I believe that in a game of psychology, wits, and logic; one should be able to use an Ad hom. Shouldn't be used to push a lynch or anything, but it's important to be able to check through the "chink" in the armor so to speak. This a game of how certain people react when given certain roles, it should be important to be able to "prod" certain responses to cross check with previous behavior. It isn't neccesairly the morally correct thing to do, but in my experience, a lot of things in the field of psychology could join the Ad Hom.

tl;dr: The Ad Hom is the neccesary evil.

However, I do agree that there is definitely a limit to what should be allowed, what that limit should be is unclear to me.

[Firebringer]

Quick even MS allows you to insult a players play.
To a certain degree.

They are more liberal with usage of the rules, but thats because its a bigger crowd and not everyone gets it that the other person doesn't really mean it.

I mean if I have a back and forth with most players here they will get it that I don't really mean it, some won't but a most get it. If you feel like someone is going too far you can always just tell them "Hey stop" unless they are huge asshole I think most will respect that on some level and back down at least a bit.

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Mafia is about communication and when you start banning certain ways people communicate you limit the ways in which people play.

I agree with Crypt on the whole point about we aren't robots.

Does that mean we allow all forms of people Ad Hom? No. It depends on intention of the player.

Is the player doing so to actually legitimately hurt you? That isn't okay.
Is the player acting within their role/win con to further it? Yes, than usually okay.

[Cryptonic]

No one here is condoning players insulting other players. Those players do get punished when things go too far.
FYI, Ad Hominem is attacking the person to destroy their argument. It's like negating someone's reads by saying they're an idiot and ignoring the point of their argument. Not that the definition matters, but it just bugs me to see people use it incorrectly. Insulting someone isn't an ad hominem.


You also have to realize that when people are arguing in-game, things can get heated. People can get frustrated and they may insult each other. People shouldn't take these types of things to heart. Have you ever played any competitive sports? We are all human and have natural reactions to competitiveness and frustration.


I firmly believe that people should not be forced to play a specific way, as that takes the fun out of Mafia. Where does the line get drawn? However, I also firmly believe that the community should be self policing; If you don't not like how someone plays the game, you should call them out on it and say that you will no longer play games with them if they are going to act that way. I also believe that a host should be able to exclude specific players from their games in order to get the players they feel will play their game how they want it to be played.

[Cryptonic]

I mean if I have a back and forth with most players here they will get it that I don't really mean it, some won't but a most get it. If you feel like someone is going too far you can always just tell them "Hey stop" unless they are huge asshole I think most will respect that on some level and back down at least a bit.

This x19273891273

If people just told others to stop and that they don't appreciate it, then 99% of the people would stop. And the 1% would get weeded out as the true toxic players. As I said, we are human and we can get upset/frustrated. But we can also feel empathy.


But instead, this is what happens every time:

Player A insults
Player B gets upset
Player B reports post
Player B replies with insults
Player A replies with insults
Player B reports post
Player B replies with more insults
Player A & B both get infracted because the conversation was reported
Player A gets mad @ Player B for reporting
Player B gets mad @ Admin because they think they are completely innocent and should be allowed to respond with hate and go unpunished because they didn't initiate


Where is the logic in these situations? How can you report someone for something, and then carry out the same actions? And I'm not joking, this literally happens 99% of the time someone reports a post in game. Just blows my mind that the people who complain about the toxicity on this site are willing to do it themselves. They don't try to help the situation at all.

[Unknown1234]

I honestly don't get how people are offended by most of the stuff around here. I understand the stuff that gets carried away is wrong but I haven't reported a single post because in reality I'm not that insulted by it.

[Quick]

This x19273891273

If people just told others to stop and that they don't appreciate it, then 99% of the people would stop. And the 1% would get weeded out as the true toxic players. As I said, we are human and we can get upset/frustrated. But we can also feel empathy.


But instead, this is what happens every time:

Player A insults
Player B gets upset
Player B reports post
Player B replies with insults
Player A replies with insults
Player B reports post
Player B replies with more insults
Player A & B both get infracted because the conversation was reported
Player A gets mad @ Player B for reporting
Player B gets mad @ Admin because they think they are completely innocent and should be allowed to respond with hate and go unpunished because they didn't initiate


Where is the logic in these situations? How can you report someone for something, and then carry out the same actions? And I'm not joking, this literally happens 99% of the time someone reports a post in game. Just blows my mind that the people who complain about the toxicity on this site are willing to do it themselves. They don't try to help the situation at all.

FWIW, I have never reported a post. Secondly, its pretty easy to see how to solve the problem ie. take insults off the table for play.

[Cryptonic]

I honestly don't get how people are offended by most of the stuff around here. I understand the stuff that gets carried away is wrong but I haven't reported a single post because in reality I'm not that insulted by it.

Yea, You and I insulted each other pretty consistently d1 in the M-FM. ♥

[MattZed]

My view is that this is a small community and it's best to work on a person-by-person basis. If someone leaves the site because another person isn't making them feel welcome, then that's a problem, and usually there's more than one person bothered by that individual's behavior. The way to keep the site healthy is to deal with these problematic players and make clear to them that they have to clean up their act or get out.

Our site's atmosphere is always going to tend to be trolly. The sc2mafia mod is a home for trolls, and this is our main player draw. But that doesn't mean we don't draw a line; we do. If your conduct could make a reasonable person feel unwelcome to the site, or if it just completely ruins their fun, that's where I step in.

[DarknessB]

My view is that this is a small community and it's best to work on a person-by-person basis. If someone leaves the site because another person isn't making them feel welcome, then that's a problem, and usually there's more than one person bothered by that individual's behavior. The way to keep the site healthy is to deal with these problematic players and make clear to them that they have to clean up their act or get out.

Our site's atmosphere is always going to tend to be trolly. The sc2mafia mod is a home for trolls, and this is our main player draw. But that doesn't mean we don't draw a line; we do. If your conduct could make a reasonable person feel unwelcome to the site, or if it just completely ruins their fun, that's where I step in.

I prefer the #draintheswamp approach personally.

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I honestly don't get how people are offended by most of the stuff around here. I understand the stuff that gets carried away is wrong but I haven't reported a single post because in reality I'm not that insulted by it.

I think part of it is whether insults are good-natured poking vs. stuff that actually offends someone. Staff constantly rail on each other, but we have the chance to work together so they're usually just tiffs that get dealt with eventually. I get how it would be worse if you're only dealing with someone when they're poking at you and don't have a chance to interact in a more pleasant way outside of that. Would be nice to have a more social site outside of games themselves so people don't feel mortally attacked in games if someone scumreads them or is a little bit insulting to them, which can just be the heat of the battle.

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This x19273891273

If people just told others to stop and that they don't appreciate it, then 99% of the people would stop. And the 1% would get weeded out as the true toxic players. As I said, we are human and we can get upset/frustrated. But we can also feel empathy.


But instead, this is what happens every time:

Player A insults
Player B gets upset
Player B reports post
Player B replies with insults
Player A replies with insults
Player B reports post
Player B replies with more insults
Player A & B both get infracted because the conversation was reported
Player A gets mad @ Player B for reporting
Player B gets mad @ Admin because they think they are completely innocent and should be allowed to respond with hate and go unpunished because they didn't initiate


Where is the logic in these situations? How can you report someone for something, and then carry out the same actions? And I'm not joking, this literally happens 99% of the time someone reports a post in game. Just blows my mind that the people who complain about the toxicity on this site are willing to do it themselves. They don't try to help the situation at all.

Heh, it's pretty much the equivalent of mediating squabbles between kindergarteners sometimes. There's such a thing as moral high ground and you lose that as soon as you start doing the same thing that you're complaining the other person is doing.

[Cryptonic]

FWIW, I have never reported a post. Secondly, its pretty easy to see how to solve the problem ie. take insults off the table for play.

Yes, true, you never have. I've also never really seen you involved in any in-game drama.

The hard part with removing insults is, where do we draw the line?

Crappy players make plays like that. For one, it lacks subtlety. it doesn't really throw anyone off because it is so obvious as a fancy play. That why no one did that. Ofc based on some of the things I have see on this forum I can't rule that out I suppose. I have a naturally bent toward playing straightforward though.

Is this an insult? It's stating that a player is crappy based on their playstyle.

Tell me unknown, what the flying fuck do you know about my town game?

Should we consider this toxic and instigating? It encourages players to respond with hostility.

The whole point of me asking for a Doc claim is to eliminate WIFOM. How the hell do you not see that?

Should we consider the loaded question @ the end of the post, which infers someone is stupid, as an insult?

Uhg. Really? I have to explain this? Ok, I will walk you though it.

And this is also condescending and inferring that someone is so stupid that you're shocked you have to explain it.



I mean, personally I don't think there is a problem with the way you are posting. But they definitely do help harbor the toxic environment you are posting against. I don't think it's appropriate to think it's OK to be condescending to players, and then get upset if they insult you. Being condescending is insulting.

And just to say, I'm not trying to single you out. I'm just using you as an example because you've openly posted against the toxicity of the games. There are other users I would've way rather used for examples than you, but I know they would've taken it as an insult and this thread would just be full of drama if I did that. Sorry if you are taking offense to me using these quotes, I am just using them to prove my point. It is nothing against you as a player, because, tbh, it's a similar playstyle to mine and most other users.

[BananaCucho]

I honestly don't get how people are offended by most of the stuff around here. I understand the stuff that gets carried away is wrong but I haven't reported a single post because in reality I'm not that insulted by it.

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We must seize the means of production comrades!! Topple the oligarchy!!!

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We will show the admins that we reject their fascist ways and we will bring down their corruption and a new sc2mafia will be born from the ashes!!

[Firebringer]

But instead, this is what happens every time:

Player A insults
Player B gets upset
Player B reports post
Player B replies with insults
Player A replies with insults
Player B reports post
Player B replies with more insults
Player A & B both get infracted because the conversation was reported
Player A gets mad @ Player B for reporting
Player B gets mad @ Admin because they think they are completely innocent and should be allowed to respond with hate and go unpunished because they didn't initiate


Where is the logic in these situations? How can you report someone for something, and then carry out the same actions? And I'm not joking, this literally happens 99% of the time someone reports a post in game. Just blows my mind that the people who complain about the toxicity on this site are willing to do it themselves. They don't try to help the situation at all.

lol I think i have been guilty of this at one point.

Probably involving Banana

[Cryptonic]

lol I think i have been guilty of this at one point.

Probably involving Banana

I probably have been guilty of it outside of FM. Not sure if I've ever reported a non-rule breaking Forum Mafia post.

[BananaCucho]

This x19273891273

If people just told others to stop and that they don't appreciate it, then 99% of the people would stop. And the 1% would get weeded out as the true toxic players. As I said, we are human and we can get upset/frustrated. But we can also feel empathy.


But instead, this is what happens every time:

Player A insults
Player B gets upset
Player B reports post
Player B replies with insults
Player A replies with insults
Player B reports post
Player B replies with more insults
Player A & B both get infracted because the conversation was reported
Player A gets mad @ Player B for reporting
Player B gets mad @ Admin because they think they are completely innocent and should be allowed to respond with hate and go unpunished because they didn't initiate


Where is the logic in these situations? How can you report someone for something, and then carry out the same actions? And I'm not joking, this literally happens 99% of the time someone reports a post in game. Just blows my mind that the people who complain about the toxicity on this site are willing to do it themselves. They don't try to help the situation at all.

Once you get a taste of the poison its addictive and hard to reject. Has to be a group effort IMO.

[SilverWolf]

When myself and ika stopped posting here for a few months, part of it was RL stuff but a big part of it was because of toxic BS. You want to swear in a game, say I'm making a dumb play or acting like an idiot with a playstyle thing, that's no big deal. You call me retarded and autistic and similar shit, I have better things to do with my time.

Quick-I disagree ms didn't insult people. I saw that in games all the time as well as trolling and shit play. Lurking was a huge problem. What they did right was post game, people would discuss the game and what others can do to make better plays and improve. I'd like to see more of that here.

[Quick]

Yes, true, you never have. I've also never really seen you involved in any in-game drama.

The hard part with removing insults is, where do we draw the line?

I think drawing the line is something that requires knowing the intent of the person. I still think that some things should still not be said, even if the intent to hurt someone was not there. After all, some people are simply sociopaths.

Is this an insult? It's stating that a player is crappy based on their playstyle.

No one did that though, so I was not actually insulting anyone's play. I made a comment saying some people on this site are prone to fancy play syndrome, yes, but I did not point out specific examples and didn't name names.

Should we consider this toxic and instigating? It encourages players to respond with hostility.

This is a case where I was using colorful language to give a more dramatic effect. I didn't insult Unknown. I was raising the question of does unknown really know how I play as Town. It is colorful language, yes. But the actual message is not insulting.

Should we consider the loaded question @ the end of the post, which infers someone is stupid, as an insult?

That would be one way to look at it. Another would be that I was frustrated and wanted more info on how I could explain it so people could understand.

And this is also condescending and inferring that someone is so stupid that you're shocked you have to explain it.

It doesn't necessitate that I think they are stupid. All it means is that I am surprised people don't understand what I am saying. I have this problem a lot actually, so when I am put in a heightened state of stress, I typically get more bothered by people not knowing where I am coming from.

I mean, personally I don't think there is a problem with the way you are posting. But they definitely do help harbor the toxic environment you are posting against. I don't think it's appropriate to think it's OK to be condescending to players, and then get upset if they insult you. Being condescending is insulting.

I was not being condescending in the slightest. Everything I said there was 100% genuine. I was not trying to knock anyone. Obviously, I also am someone who needs to work on my presentation to make sure I am not offending anyone because I can see what you are saying here.

And just to say, I'm not trying to single you out. I'm just using you as an example because you've openly posted against the toxicity of the games. There are other users I would've way rather used for examples than you, but I know they would've taken it as an insult and this thread would just be full of drama if I did that. Sorry if you are taking offense to me using these quotes, I am just using them to prove my point. It is nothing against you as a player, because, tbh, it's a similar playstyle to mine and most other users.

No, I see your point. I know what you are thinking. The way you present info can be harmful if taken the wrong way and so where do we determine what is ok to say and what is not. Granted, I think you kinda twisted the meaning of what I said, but tbh, it might have been deserved on my end.

[BananaCucho]

Guys just like in game, if you post wall posts nobody reads them 👎

[DarknessB]

Guys just like in game, if you post wall posts nobody reads them 

Not even if Mexico pays for them? Agreed though that somewhat more digestible bites are helpful. People either seem to err on the side of posting one-line choppy stuff that doesn't provide much value, or posting absolute tomes that are too difficult to read through. Need to shoot for that happy medium.

[Cryptonic]

I honestly think if everyone was cordial in games, I would think everyone is scum and never get town reads.
The thought scares me

[DarknessB]

I honestly think if everyone was cordial in games, I would think everyone is scum and never get town reads.
The thought scares me

That's true -- in FM games, excessively nice people can be suspicious in the sense of trying to curry your favor through flattery or behavior rather than substance / reads. That tends to be an effective strategy against the more overactive players, at least. Whereas, someone who is willing to get into the muck seems more invested at some level and is more likely Town in my head. Far easier to be lazy scum (since you know the answers) vs. lazy Town (if you're doing this, you're an asshole, lol).

[Sino]

I honestly think if everyone was cordial in games, I would think everyone is scum and never get town reads.
The thought scares me

Indeed

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...132#post647132

How to scare Cryptonic : be nice with him.

[MasterNinja]

When the forums almost resembles the sc2mafia arcade, its getting pretty serious.

[yzb25]

In regards to the influence of the mod, I think people are missing out an important element - The mod is a game where you have a bazzillion different rules and possible combinations and scenarios and stuff, and there's surprisingly little focus on reads beyond "statistical trends in speech". It's also quite difficult to influence your own winrate on the mod, due to its chaotic nature, beyond being vaguely sure you'll probably win 2/3s of your games with a certain strategy or w/e, and there's loads of shitty games where you die n1 or w/e besides. In short, to enjoy a game like the mod, it's probably because you care more about seeing interesting / entertaining scenarios - shitpost banter and ridiculous roleclaims just to see what happens, or ridiculous rng and cute logic-trains/plans. This is captured in SotDs.

In short, the mod strongly attracts players prone to "fancy play syndrome". I think the impact the fundamental nature of the mod has on this community is being a little underestimated, as it may very well be a direct cause for the forum's culture lol.

[DarknessB]

In regards to the influence of the mod, I think people are missing out an important element - The mod is a game where you have a bazzillion different rules and possible combinations and scenarios and stuff, and there's surprisingly little focus on reads beyond "statistical trends in speech". It's also quite difficult to influence your own winrate on the mod, due to its chaotic nature, beyond being vaguely sure you'll probably win 2/3s of your games with a certain strategy or w/e, and there's loads of shitty games where you die n1 or w/e besides. In short, to enjoy a game like the mod, it's probably because you care more about seeing interesting / entertaining scenarios - shitpost banter and ridiculous roleclaims just to see what happens, or ridiculous rng and cute logic-trains/plans. This is captured in SotDs.

In short, the mod strongly attracts players prone to "fancy play syndrome". I think the impact the fundamental nature of the mod has on this community is being a little underestimated, as it may very well be a direct cause for the forum's culture lol.

The mod could be played far more like FM if people went for Citizen-heavy setups and longer days to discuss. That's not what most mod players want though -- they tend to want TPR fests where every Town role has some reasonably strong night ability or else it'd be boring to them. Essentially, the mod encourages a short attention span, "speed mafia" type of play which is largely dependent on the results of night actions, whereas FM requires far more reflection and analysis (since you actually have to read people based on what they say). There's a reason the whole spamming of "X IS MAFIA" doesn't tend to go over that well in FM.

[PowersThatBe]

MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.

and he was.

[DarknessB]

MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.MATT ZED IS MAFIA.

and he was.

Wow, I didn't realize PTB was actually an NU smurf? I guess you learn something new every day...

[Sino]

The mod could be played far more like FM if people went for Citizen-heavy setups and longer days to discuss. That's not what most mod players want though -- they tend to want TPR fests where every Town role has some reasonably strong night ability or else it'd be boring to them. Essentially, the mod encourages a short attention span, "speed mafia" type of play which is largely dependent on the results of night actions, whereas FM requires far more reflection and analysis (since you actually have to read people based on what they say). There's a reason the whole spamming of "X IS MAFIA" doesn't tend to go over that well in FM.

I don't agree DB, even if the players wanted to play the mod like a FM game, there is just not enough time for it to be played that way, you can't read anyone when there's only 2-3 minutes a day, and imagine the spamming it would be in the chat. No way someone could find one precise information there.

It's just a platform problem.

[Gyrlander]

I don't agree DB, even if the players wanted to play the mod like a FM game, there is just not enough time for it to be played that way, you can't read anyone when there's only 2-3 minutes a day, and imagine the spamming it would be in the chat. No way someone could find one precise information there.

It's just a platform problem.

New update: Days last 1 hour.

[yzb25]

The mod could be played far more like FM if people went for Citizen-heavy setups and longer days to discuss. That's not what most mod players want though -- they tend to want TPR fests where every Town role has some reasonably strong night ability or else it'd be boring to them. Essentially, the mod encourages a short attention span, "speed mafia" type of play which is largely dependent on the results of night actions, whereas FM requires far more reflection and analysis (since you actually have to read people based on what they say). There's a reason the whole spamming of "X IS MAFIA" doesn't tend to go over that well in FM.

Sensing lots of bigotry towards our moddigrants in this post. This website was founded by moddigrants, I have you know.

Hardliners like you are the reason quotas to get more people of mod-based-heritage into positions of power are blocked.

[DarknessB]

I don't agree DB, even if the players wanted to play the mod like a FM game, there is just not enough time for it to be played that way, you can't read anyone when there's only 2-3 minutes a day, and imagine the spamming it would be in the chat. No way someone could find one precise information there.

It's just a platform problem.

Pretty sure you can extend the day to some insanely high number of minutes per day cycle. Forget off-hand, but it'd be something like 6 to 10 minutes (or longer) so you could actually have a decent discussion if people wanted to. It really has to do with the patience and pace of the players. The issue then would be that most players don't want to play a 2 hour Mafia game in a row on the SC2 client. And sure, there would be issues with spamming, but that's the case with the mod already and with FM sometimes.

- - - Updated - - -

Sensing lots of bigotry towards are moddigrants in this post. This website was founded by moddigrants, I have you know.

Hardliners like you are the reason quotas to get more people of mod-based-heritage into positions of power are blocked.

Let me refer you to my candidate for purple, @BananaCucho , who expressed the problem very accurately and succinctly:

When the mod sends players they're sending game throwers. They're sending cheaters, hackers, and some, I assume, are good people.

[Cryptonic]

Pretty sure you can extend the day to some insanely high number of minutes per day cycle. Forget off-hand, but it'd be something like 6 to 10 minutes (or longer) so you could actually have a decent discussion if people wanted to. It really has to do with the patience and pace of the players. The issue then would be that most players don't want to play a 2 hour Mafia game in a row on the SC2 client. And sure, there would be issues with spamming, but that's the case with the mod already and with FM sometimes.

I'd be willing to redownload SC2 (my windows started acting shit on update, had to reinstall and lost it ) and play in a game with like 5-6 minute long days and 2-3 minute long nights, in-house.

[DarknessB]

I'd be willing to redownload SC2 (my windows started acting shit on update, had to reinstall and lost it ) and play in a game with like 5-6 minute long days and 2-3 minute long nights, in-house.

I think an in-house game with a group of people from the forum (or those who are going into the game knowing there will be long days, mostly citizens, etc.) would be fun. It'd need to be in-house though because people would need to approach it with the mindset of scumhunting through text vs. night actions. Would be a fun idea for someone to organize. @SuperJack ?