S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[Never Unlucky]

Tried to force a 1v1.

I did, I challenged you to a chess game, but you declined the invitation. ;_;

[Firebringer]

If tonight, group 3 still being killed, then there are 2 mafia in group 3, don't you think? (If never unlucky flip scum)
If group 1-2 killed then the scum change the target.

How does this even work?

[Firebringer]

There is no town motivation for voting now and risk having the day end early. It does NOTHING because we all know he's scum so scum will just bus him.

Nice evasion of SIMPLY UNVOTING LOL

This is an easy idea to push for "We can use all the time we have".

Why the fuck would ANY town fake-claim Neighbour? If there's an actual Neighbour in the game then NU forces them to counter-claim.

No way is that town-motivated when you could just claim your REAL role.

That assumes you know theres an actual neighbor, which I think is a unlikely role to actually put in the game, but regardless. If theres a red check on him he is lying or the person who checked him is lying simple PoE.

[Yukitaka Oni]

How does this even work?

What do scum gain from killing in a group with empty mafia? (If never unlucky is the only scum in my group)?

[Firebringer]

There is no town motivation for voting now and risk having the day end early. It does NOTHING because we all know he's scum so scum will just bus him.

Nice evasion of SIMPLY UNVOTING LOL

What do scum gain from killing in a group with empty mafia? (If never unlucky is the only scum in my group)?

I have no idea hw these groups work, so I am going to go with WIFOM.
The answer to all questions of why scum do shit.

[Unknown1234]

I have no idea hw these groups work, so I am going to go with WIFOM.
The answer to all questions of why scum do shit.

@Firebringer are you Slayer/SuperJack?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

@Unknown1234 he is superjack's slot yes.
@Firebringer there are 3 groups of 5 players. First 24 hours of a day we vote on a group, the selected group are the only 5 players that can be lynched that day.

Mafia wins by obtaining majority in any group. When there are no more mafia in a group, the remaining towns become confirmed and put into the other groups.

Based on a lot of context you were not here for we are almost 100% sure that group 3 is 1 scum who is red checked, and slipped meaning the others in group 3 are all confirmed town. ( will be for certain after NU is lynched).

the night kill will be on titus or a confirmed town tonight. That is unless there is somehow a second scum in group 3 in which case I better save the day. Not sure who would be a second scum in group 3 though, so we should be gucci.

Also, I agree that there is no chance of a friendly neighbor even being rng'ed into the game as it is a terribly designed role.

[Never Unlucky]

I told you, Duck. Quick said that the roles were handpicked, not RNG'ed.

[Quick]

I told you, Duck. Quick said that the roles were handpicked, not RNG'ed.

If I might clarify,

I knew the roles I was going to use for the game. Roles assigned to players were in fact RNGed. Groups were RNGed as well.

[Titus]

@NU, You were realistically dead the moment I had a guilty on you. The job is not to win at that point but to do as much damage to town and leave the least amount of associative trails.

Can we wrap this up and not no lynch because of derpism? We have last wills here.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

We would make a really good commercial for effective time use.

-vote Never Unlucky

[Calix]

I was under the impression that town would like, comment on my giant wall-post where I pick out NU's comments on the other players since it's pretty stupid to just burn the time NOW when we have confirmed scum in the arena? Apparently not.

I can vote before I go to sleep. (~2-3 hours before EOD)

[secondpassing]

I was under the impression that town would like, comment on my giant wall-post where I pick out NU's comments on the other players since it's pretty stupid to just burn the time NOW when we have confirmed scum in the arena? Apparently not.

I can vote before I go to sleep. (~2-3 hours before EOD)

Same, but it's kinda long and I said "I'll go analyze it!" but I put it off and went to bed.

I can vote at EoD. I can vote now too.

[secondpassing]

I was under the impression that town would like, comment on my giant wall-post where I pick out NU's comments on the other players since it's pretty stupid to just burn the time NOW when we have confirmed scum in the arena? Apparently not.

I can vote before I go to sleep. (~2-3 hours before EOD)

Thoughts on G1 players Calix? I'll go reformat your ISO to something useful in a bit.

[Calix]

Same, but it's kinda long and I said "I'll go analyze it!" but I put it off and went to bed.

I can vote at EoD. I can vote now too.

Well you're Spruance, right? NU was pretty hostile about your slot, characterising his 'push' (for lack of a better word right now) as 'frustration at Spruance's poor play' and discrediting your slot and saying "if we vote G2 then we're voting for a PL of Spruance/ Slayer" so I'm pretty sure you're town by association.

He also said "and maybe Jealous" in brackets when suggesting policy-lynches so that might be relevant also.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I was under the impression that town would like, comment on my giant wall-post where I pick out NU's comments on the other players since it's pretty stupid to just burn the time NOW when we have confirmed scum in the arena? Apparently not.

I can vote before I go to sleep. (~2-3 hours before EOD)

Well I think an even bigger issue was/is the lack of group 1 interactions rather than NU's posts. It is certainly worth reviewing, but given his bussing nature, I think getting interactions with group 1 players is the key to finishing the game.


ALso do people remember when I siad that the yuki/duck/titus/secondpassing world was all town. yeah fuck you.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I should clarify, the fuck you was at the world, not at the player I was quoting.

[Calix]

Thoughts on G1 players Calix? I'll go reformat your ISO to something useful in a bit.

Klingoncelt definitely needs to be looked at. NU had some (somewhat hostile and unimpressed) interactions with her slot and she was against that weird group block thing around Titus as well.

Unknown is also suspicious. He hasn't DONE anything yet and he's hard as fuck to read under normal circumstances.

I don't remember anything that Shapelog's done but NU 'null scum-read' him and made some snide comments about Shapelog on one or two occasions. Might be town.

Eggy seems like a town from what little he's done so far and Titus is all but confirmed.

[Calix]

Well I think an even bigger issue was/is the lack of group 1 interactions rather than NU's posts. It is certainly worth reviewing, but given his bussing nature, I think getting interactions with group 1 players is the key to finishing the game.


ALso do people remember when I siad that the yuki/duck/titus/secondpassing world was all town. yeah fuck you.

I think he would bus/ buddy his partners in equal measure, it just depends on HOW he was doing it.

I should clarify, the fuck you was at the world, not at the player I was quoting.

Uh excuse you, I'm offended. My lawyer will be in touch.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Klingoncelt definitely needs to be looked at. NU had some (somewhat hostile and unimpressed) interactions with her slot and she was against that weird group block thing around Titus as well.

Unknown is also suspicious. He hasn't DONE anything yet and he's hard as fuck to read under normal circumstances.

I don't remember anything that Shapelog's done but NU 'null scum-read' him and made some snide comments about Shapelog on one or two occasions. Might be town.

Eggy seems like a town from what little he's done so far and Titus is all but confirmed.

eggy was mod confirmed as town by accident.

[Calix]

eggy was mod confirmed as town by accident.

Oh?

I can't disagree with that then. Even better.

[Quick]

eggy was mod confirmed as town by accident.

I don't think he was.

[secondpassing]

I don't think he was.

Should have said "he wasn't". (sorry for picking on you)

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I don't think he was.

We will discuss it post game.

[Yukitaka Oni]

6 hours left. I can't re-join within 6 hours

-vote Never Unlucky

[Eggy]

Im mod confirmed? nice lol idk how tht happened. probably gnna NKd when my group gets voted anyway Im just posting so I dont get replaced.

[Eggy]

should I hammer NU I wont be back in the next 6 hours most likely?

[Eggy]

I think im just gonna do it

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

@Eggy feel free to hammer if you want.

[Eggy]

-vote Never Unlucky

[The Godfather]

Never Unlucky has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Never Unlucky (6 [L-0]): Titus, Unknown1234, PLZLEAVEDUCKK, Klingoncelt, Yukitaka Oni, Eggy

[Quick]

@Never Unlucky HAS BEEN LYNCHED! THEY WERE:

MAFIA GOON!

NEW GROUPS WILL BE GIVEN AT SOD 3!

MAFIA MUST NK FROM GROUP 3

2. @JealousTL
3. @MattZed Replaced by Unknown1234
4. @Gingerape
5. @Alles_Paletti Replaced by Eggy
6. @Yukitaka Oni
7. @Shapelog
9. @Spruance Replaced by secondpassing
10. @Slayer Replaced by SuperJack
11. @Titus
12. @PLZLEAVEDUCKK
13. @Calix
14. @Kovath
15. @Klingoncelt

SOD 3:

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[Quick]

NIGHT ACTIONS HAVE BEEN LOCKED IN!

[Quick]

@Kovath
Kovath HAS BEEN NIGHT KILLED! THEY WERE:

Friendly Neighbor

I told secondpassing N1 and Duck N2.

As for players: I'm too lazy to do super extensive reads right now, but I would like to caution the player base about blindly trusting Calix. When I worked through her ISO, a lot of her posts struck me as strange for her, aloof, conveying a detached, analytical air; a number of comments that didn't seem to really drive the conversation forward imo. For instance, a number of her initial posts considered meta in general and specific metas as well (for example #165 is where she provided a somewhat self-deprecating perception of her own meta), yet I saw very little alignment reads or the like offered alongside them to help solve the game. She was simply throwing out the information (which was something she did later as well when summarizing NU's ISO... to which she then commented on, #1362: "I was under the impression that town would like, comment on my giant wall-post where I pick out NU's comments on the other players since it's pretty stupid to just burn the time NOW when we have confirmed scum in the arena? Apparently not." Asking everyone else to do the work, eh?)

Despite voting for me and thinking that I was the only person in G3 with no town motivation on D1, she did very little actual hard pushing, being extremely wishy-washy on pursuing that read (even though you have to lynch among the group and she wasn't scumreading anyone else.. perhaps to keep mislynches open too?). She offered my own inactivity as an excuse for me - which is kinda fair because it was true, yet this strikes me as an unusual overall pattern; for example, consider #156 where she says, "Nah, I usually like to lead and be in charge. I am actually being less vocal/ demanding than usual (due to not wanting to clog the thread and make it hard for people to catch up, RL commitments, etc) - it's just how I operate." It's as if she is offering excuses for deviations from her play, and her lack of commitment to pushing scumreads, though not overall scummy in and of itself, is very similar to the approach NU was pushing in the chat. [Read the remainder of #165 for an example of comments I thought weren't really driving forward the discussion in a game-solving manner]

Even that initial exchange where she pressed Yuki on his odd opening didn't feel as strong as it should have been. Even later in #278 she calls it a "quasi-push".

In #235, she kinda questioningly (a semi-red flag for me) asked NU about his null-read on Gingerape, a read that was pretty weird overall. Yet NU provides an explanation that, when I reread it, feels very shaky to me considering the original point NU said ("Not liking Ginger atm, null-read), yet Calix simply says, "I accept this explanation" and moves on. (#515 was a bit more about her reads on the G3 at the time; she reads NU as town for not seeming to be trying to skate by or something). In general, she was really lazy on reading NU off tone / meta, knowing that NU had only one scum game on the record, his first one, and that he would easily shift his playstyle away from that, while other players like myself and Duck who dug into him were able to ID suspicious spots in NU's play. (Plus NU's blind faith in Calix, which in this case could be either him sucking up to a Town!lix or using his usual pattern of behavior to townread his partner with no suspicion).

#768 was just fking weird, btw. I dunno where that one came from.

My post #798 or whatever with a (somewhat) better and more fleshed out edition of my case on NU was replied to this way by Calix:

"Him kissing my arse to the high heavens is not alignment-indicative as he does it outside of the game also, but the rest of the case comes across as reasoned although I'm not sure wherever I would follow it now."

...Ok, so you comment on the last part where I said that he had this weird idolatry of Calix, say the rest of my case "comes across as reasoned", and then conclude "not sure wherever I would follow it now." If my case is reasoned, YOU WORK THROUGH IT. YOU THINK ABOUT IT AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT, and think about your own POV. Duck for example did this by looking at NU (not super sure on Duck either btw but I think he's town) at the end of the day. Scum ping.

"Man, it's coming down to 40 minutes left and the lack of discussion continues despite us having three more fucking hours? I can't shake off the feeling that the scum just don't give a fuck because we're lynching among townies here and thus they're lurking it out or just aren't here."

We got this several times already, what's the need to keep repeating it? This is either whining in general or - trying to push the impression that the scum are afk and lurking (when perhaps... they actually aren't?)

Finally, #868 was the epitome of awkward: "Also I feel that I've been way more obvious as town and even I was pushed/ scum-read at points so why does RLVG get this weird pass?" Do I even need to comment on this post? (Plus she'd been kinda scumreading or whatever it was off my initial townread on RLVG which was, by itself, not scummy, but seems very odd with this RLVG's flip).

In regards to the NU / Jealous discussion in D2: She was kinda content to sit back and comment, for example on my posts explaining logic she would say, "Wow actually good points made by Kovath!" or whatever that post was. Casual way to seem involved while also casting subtle shade on me.

finally, #1369 about NU's associations: "I think he would bus/ buddy his partners in equal measure, it just depends on HOW he was doing it." Ok, got anything to share about what you think about those associations then? #1368 was really weak in that sense.

[Last thing - she was really quick to jump onto my point about Unknown casting an early vote "Nice evasion of SIMPLY UNVOTING LOL" but simply didn't push it any farther - a trend this game).

Also I'm not the biggest fan of her tone either, her jokes and reactions to things just seem a bit unnatural, too subdued in some places and too extreme in others. It's inconsistent. Hard to explain further, would advise skimming through the ISO yourself.

I rest my case, please seriously look at Calix today because I feel she is being extremely scummy. Much like NU, she's not trying to push the game forward. I may not have done a great job in explicitly filling out the scum motivation and scum narratives that I've brought together from all these points, but I think it should be self-evident with some careful though as to why scum!Calix would do these things in a way compelling enough to deserve consideration.

Good luck my townie friends. Your Friendly Neighbor, out.

GROUP 1	GROUP 2
@Unknown1234 @Titus @secondpassing @Shapelog @JealousTL @Eggy	@PLZLEAVEDUCKK @Firebringer @Yukitaka Oni @Gingerape @Klingoncelt @Calix

End of DP: I: Day 3:

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DAYS HOURS MINUTES SECONDS

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

The whole reason I signed up for this game was to play with Kovath.

One of you fuckers killed him, and I am going to policy lynch you in the next game I play with you when I find out who it was.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

-vote group 2

[secondpassing]

I can't get to it right now, but over the night I've been stewing over Calix and what she is.

Fact 1. She lied. Not about her role or anything, but kinda like how I lied about my nationality.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I can't get to it right now, but over the night I've been stewing over Calix and what she is.

Fact 1. She lied. Not about her role or anything, but kinda like how I lied about my nationality.

calix/klingon/jealoustl

bag em and tag em? Meh maybe replace one of the two from group 2 with Firebringer.

All but one of the limited posters are in group 1 which hopefully we will get more out of them in time. I think whether or not we look to lynch calix today, we end up on group 2.

I originally read Firebringer's slot as mafia by POE, so that is a good place to look
I have noticed odd behavior about calix, like I mentioned with the fake interaction with Firebringer, and the odd misreps against me
Klingon's hard defense of NU, and overall play
ginger-confirmed
yuki-confirmed
me- I should be around to answer anything about my reads.

[secondpassing]

I haven't read Kovath's will yet. I'll get to it later today.

1. Oddly unreasonable. Even though she had no clue of who to lynch on Day 1. She refused to lynch NU. If she had these people at "null" why the preference to not sheep my read or bring it down?

2a. Misplaced focus. Her posts regarding group selection (especially at a time when yuki/gingerape were looked at to be lynches) was highly analyzed, but when it came to lynch targets (see above), she suddenly had no opinion. She went for the low hanging fruit.

2b. She did a basically random ISO on NU. Why do an ISO on NU? Why not do an ISO on JealousTL, or better yet, on a player not looked at as much? I find her opinions on the matter quite weak. Side note: I had to copy pasta that thing into Google docs to edit that sucker. I'll post what I find later. Or not. I can't say there's much trustworthy stuff in there.

3. Not of the collective. I expect people not to get this one but bear with me. During the time that Quick allowed for an extension, she posted that ISO. It lacked analysis so IIOA.

She also did not go along and let herself chat with us. (yes the thread was derailed) Why not? She needs to maintain her appearance of towniess.

4. Gut. My favorite... Which I will decide when I look into Her posts in more detail for: word choice, tone AND mood, syntax.

5. Uh I forgot what goes here. Probably that fact that she lied about never rolling scum recently? I just want to hear what she says about this one XD.

[Titus]

I have IRL, so I am not delaying results. Shapelog targeted Kovath.

-vote Group 1

[Titus]

Jealous likely spewed town by choice of killer.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I have IRL, so I am not delaying results. Shapelog targeted Kovath.

-vote Group 1

I don't agree with lynching within group 1 today even if it is a red check. Does leaving the red check alive really matter at this point? You being night immune is more important.

[Calix]

Fuck's sake. I'll have to respond to that giant wallpost in the morning but changing how I play =/= scum-tell, zzz.

I can't get to it right now, but over the night I've been stewing over Calix and what she is.

Fact 1. She lied. Not about her role or anything, but kinda like how I lied about my nationality.

What?

Jealous likely spewed town by choice of killer.

How do you mean?

[Yukitaka Oni]

-vote group 2

-vote Group 2

King,calix,or maybe you plzduck but.....hey. At least we narrow down 1/2 scum right?

[Titus]

If jealous is confscum, why wouldn't they send him to kill?

@Duck, disagree. But scumhunting good so, *shrug*

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

town has auto btw.

[Calix]

If jealous is confscum, why wouldn't they send him to kill?

@Duck, disagree. But scumhunting good so, *shrug*

Fair point.

GROUP 1	GROUP 2
@Unknown1234 @Titus @secondpassing @Shapelog @JealousTL @Eggy	@PLZLEAVEDUCKK @Firebringer @Yukitaka Oni @Gingerape @Klingoncelt @Calix

So assuming Titus/ Jealous/ Eggy are all town, G1 seems like it'll be the best option for a lynch. If Shapelog is the only G1 scum then we can't lose and if not then we know that SP/ Unknown have to be Traitor.

Bodyguard would 100% be on Titus tonight so that's not a concern. Scum are unlikely to risk that because a dead Bodyguard confirms another townie. (even if by death)

-vote Group 1

And correct me if I'm wrong but Yuki/ Ginger are also confirmed. So FB/ Duck/ Klingoncelt = POE pool. Let me know if I missed anyone but game seems mostly wrapped up FMPOV.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Town has 8 confirmed members, just lynch shapelog and speed it up.

-vote group 1

[Yukitaka Oni]

I prefer king then calix first lol. Gotta love boiling train......full of blood....good'old big boss goes nuclear....

[Yukitaka Oni]

Fair point.

GROUP 1	GROUP 2
@Unknown1234 @Titus @secondpassing @Shapelog @JealousTL @Eggy	@PLZLEAVEDUCKK @Firebringer @Yukitaka Oni @Gingerape @Klingoncelt @Calix

So assuming Titus/ Jealous/ Eggy are all town, G1 seems like it'll be the best option for a lynch. If Shapelog is the only G1 scum then we can't lose and if not then we know that SP/ Unknown have to be Traitor.

Bodyguard would 100% be on Titus tonight so that's not a concern. Scum are unlikely to risk that because a dead Bodyguard confirms another townie. (even if by death)

-vote Group 1

And correct me if I'm wrong but Yuki/ Ginger are also confirmed. So FB/ Duck/ Klingoncelt = POE pool. Let me know if I missed anyone but game seems mostly wrapped up FMPOV.

One people just move from group 2 to group 1, give a little bit attention to him......(remind)

-unvote