S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

-vote Yukitaka Oni

[Quick]

Wait. How come you're not voting?

Reads please.

He can't vote because his Group is chosen.

[RLVG]

-vote Yukitaka Oni

FAKE VOTE IS FAKE

[secondpassing]

I am banned from voting.

Reads then? I know you're cucked because it "doesnt matter" but make something up that I can think about.

[SuperJack]

-vote Yukitaka Oni

bold it. that helps

[JealousTL]

I'm not following DUCK, I am defending Yukitaka whilst pointing out that it is odd that DUCK is voting for Kovath. There could be multiple reasons DUCK could be following Kovath as neut/scum.
I'm saying my town read on Yukitaka-san > suspicion on DUCK

I see. I already explained why I think your town read on Yukitaka is bad; hopefully I will be proven right soon. At least this makes sense to me, somewhat. What did you think of DUCK defending Yukitaka from the start of the game, more or less, in conjunction with all of this?

[RLVG]

Reads then? I know you're cucked because it "doesnt matter" but make something up that I can think about.

I already shared my reads, so I'll do an abridged version.

1. Yuki
2. Kovath
3. Never Unlucky
4. Gingerape.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

bold it. that helps

Seriously? that obvious?

-vote Yukitaka Oni Ducksucks

[Calix]

Of course we do.

Gah, I don't know what to do. Maybe Kovath is better because people were ignoring him more than they were ignoring Yuki but if that's the case then why the sudden train on him? But then Yuki's being defended a lot by players and if he's town then one or more might be white-knighting (or scum defending scum) so his flip is more informative but then I think he's more likely to be town than Kovath but neither of them are even in the fucking thread.

-vote Kovath

Shot in the dark here. I don't trust at all.

[Never Unlucky]

Gingerape has at least done something productive and has been responsive to their situation (albeit saying weird things).

Meanwhile Yuki refuses to contribute anything, doesn't answer questions, acts secretively, disparages others, and is just impossible to understand sometimes. Refusing to contribute anything + acting secretively are the main reasons I have for a scumlean; the rest are just bonus reasons that are more player-oriented than alignment-oriented.

Overall, I find Yuki to be the best choice out of the 5.

Out of the two I see Yuki more likely to be scum. Constant incobsistances and I can't see him being town. Dispute my love for him.

Out of the two? Why do you disregard me, RLVG and Kovath?

I can buy this logic, if not necessarily the scumreads. I do feel Gingerape is getting wagoned because of a single post and the fallout from it, mostly because one person found it suspicious. That seems very weak to me.

You're right, only "slips" don't happen often. Being nitpicky on 1 post seems exaggerated, but I think it's justified.

[SuperJack]

-unvote

0-o

[Titus]

Wow this is a shit storm

[secondpassing]

I see. I already explained why I think your town read on Yukitaka is bad; hopefully I will be proven right soon. At least this makes sense to me, somewhat. What did you think of DUCK defending Yukitaka from the start of the game, more or less, in conjunction with all of this?

Not going to think about that right now. Do you think Kovath is scum? Do you think Never Unlucky is scum?

Will there be a time when I can figure out where you stand on things? Will you ever post a read wall? Will you let me know who you would like to push come day 2?

[SuperJack]

AH FA FACKS SAKE I DONT GOT A FUCKING FRICKIN GLUE OMG

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

AH FA FACKS SAKE I DONT GOT A FUCKING FRICKIN GLUE OMG

If you love me you will put your vote on kovath. Think of the children.

[Quick]

Because of all the replacements, would you consider a day extension? @Quick

Day will be extended to 10 PM CST.

• 00

• 00

• 00

• 00

DAYS HOURS MINUTES SECONDS

[RLVG]

THREE MINUTES ASSHOLES, the unvote and spread of trains is forcing a No Lynch.

Yukitaka Oni (3 [L-3]):
Titus, Klingoncelt, JealousTL

---

Kovath (3 [L-3]):
secondpassing, PLZLEAVEDUCKK, Calix

[Calix]

AH FA FACKS SAKE I DONT GOT A FUCKING FRICKIN GLUE OMG

I CAN RELATE SO HARD RIGHT NOW.

LIKE AM I ACCIDENTALLY DEFENDING SCUM? AM I PICKING THE WRONG TRAIN? AM I JUST WORRYING OVER TWO FUCKING TOWN PLAYERS?

WHO KNOWS

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

[unvoteduckduckgooseduckduckgoose[/unvote]

[RLVG]

Day will be extended to 10 PM CST.

Cool, that's a relief!
More players can check in.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

-unvote

[Titus]

Ok, we got 4 hours, so I can be intelligent

-vote unvote

[Klingoncelt]

I'll vote Yuki or Ginger.

[JealousTL]

Not going to think about that right now. Do you think Kovath is scum? Do you think Never Unlucky is scum?

Will there be a time when I can figure out where you stand on things? Will you ever post a read wall? Will you let me know who you would like to push come day 2?

I don't think Kovath is scum. I don't think NU is scum.

Yes - I have answered every one of your questions, you can see all the reads you've requested. Yes - most likely after N1. I would like to pressure DUCK, as much as this seems like it would be an unpleasant task.

[RLVG]

Ok, we got 4 hours, so I can be intelligent

-vote unvote

Three and a half hours actually, but that's no excuse to be unintelligent up to this point.

[Calix]

Question. How do people feel about RLVG? He's the G3 player that's been talked about the least so if anyone strongly town-reads/ scum-reads him, I'd like to hear it now.

[secondpassing]

Day will be extended to 10 PM CST.

[Countdown Timers Cannot be Quoted from Other Posts]

THE HOST MASTER HAS SAVED US.
What happens in a tie vote for phase 2?

[Quick]

THE HOST MASTER HAS SAVED US.
What happens in a tie vote for phase 2?

Votes must be a majority to have effect.

[RLVG]

Question. How do people feel about RLVG? He's the G3 player that's been talked about the least so if anyone strongly town-reads/ scum-reads him, I'd like to hear it now.

From what I see it's agreed upon that I'm a townlean so that's probably a reason I'm not being talked about.

Limelight, action!

I'll be off in about half an hour though for sleep, so don't expect me to be around by end time.

[secondpassing]

That means I can actually vote my scum read.

-vote Never Unlucky

SuperJack, are you caught up btw?

[Titus]

Question. How do people feel about RLVG? He's the G3 player that's been talked about the least so if anyone strongly town-reads/ scum-reads him, I'd like to hear it now.

Strong tonal townread.

Rlvg jealous Calix all town

NU might be scum

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Question. How do people feel about RLVG? He's the G3 player that's been talked about the least so if anyone strongly town-reads/ scum-reads him, I'd like to hear it now.

He is likely town. His initial tunneling on me was NAI, but he was focusing on all of the wrong aspects IMO. He was trying to discredit the setup rather than someone like Ginger who was finding how I work into the setup. While this initially leaned scummy the way he has constantly attacked and joked against me, I believe he is town tunneling RLVG. I guess mafia can make trolly jokes, but I think he has been good about trying to find out my alignment, even if I do not agree with his conclusion or how he got to his conclusion.

I do not want to see a lynch on rlvg today, but feel free to discuss if you think I am wrong.

[JealousTL]

Question. How do people feel about RLVG? He's the G3 player that's been talked about the least so if anyone strongly town-reads/ scum-reads him, I'd like to hear it now.

I will need to look back on things in more detail, particularly the RLVG vs. NU vs. Kovath, but I recall my feeling from this discussion and from his stance on DUCK to be townlean. I would say that between the three of them, the most likely to be scum might be Kovath, but this is a weak read. My feeling that it was a TvTvT is stronger.

[Never Unlucky]

Everyone get your votes on Ginger, NOW.

You sound like me... This never works.

Spoiler : Not really game-related :

NU is mostly a tone/ meta read which I feel is different from his scum game.

Let me know what you conclude before I comment on the rest.

I’m curious. What are my scum and town metas like?

SJ’s theory – I don’t think it’s a valid one because RLVG and Kovath have stated that they don’t like this mechanic, I know I am town, Ginger claimed cit, and Yuki claimed a PR (?).

All I have time to post before EoD.

[JealousTL]

Also, I was kinda banking on this being the cut off point for D1 so I was pushing back some of the work I had to do; now I have to do it and miss the majority of the last three hours -___- I will try to come back a ~30 minutes prior to cut-off and catch up and see if I want to change my vote.

[Calix]

From what I see it's agreed upon that I'm a townlean so that's probably a reason I'm not being talked about.

Limelight, action!

I'll be off in about half an hour though for sleep, so don't expect me to be around by end time.

Yeah, I thought as much and I agree with said reads, but I find it odd that few people have discussed you compared to the other G3 players. I would have thought that scum would try throwing shade on a town read so either they don't want to risk the backlash from doing that or you're scum, but this line of thought assumes that most of the scum are active.

Also I'm paranoid because I can see town motivation in everyone but Kovath but even that doesn't make me feel convinced.

[Never Unlucky]

All I have time to post before EoD.

Nevermind, saw the update. Catching up.

[Titus]

Yeah, I thought as much and I agree with said reads, but I find it odd that few people have discussed you compared to the other G3 players. I would have thought that scum would try throwing shade on a town read so either they don't want to risk the backlash from doing that or you're scum, but this line of thought assumes that most of the scum are active.

Also I'm paranoid because I can see town motivation in everyone but Kovath but even that doesn't make me feel convinced.

Has NU called me out?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Glad we got an extension to twiddle our thumbs.

Anyway I will ISO Kovath + one of the others in a few minutes. ( probably NU)

In the meantime, since we were so close to day end does anyone find anything interesting about the votes, such as how we were about to sleep over lynching yuki?

Ill be back in a bit.

[Never Unlucky]

@Calix , which do you prefer? You have my vote.

Thought Spruance had been replaced, zzz.

Klingon, will you do Yuki?

I can, yes.

Why the fuck are you asking someone who you haven’t stated you town-read who they are willing to vote?

Why do you agree with this (potential) buddying without having second thoughts?

I called out on Ginger being a Citizen who wants to take a shot during night and was confirmed right in my assumption.
Probably an anti-town thing of me to do, but I rather not see a gambit turn into a ML.

It would be anti-town if you were actively role-fishing; it isn't what you've done. You pointed out something that was ~obvious.

We'll see.

Let's all go to jealous wants then?

You seem to be fine with sheeping anyone as long as there's a lynch. Scummy af.
Not a fan of this slot content-wise nor action-wise.

I was voting Yuki at the beginning of this phase. I moved my vote because Titus thought she saw Gingerape scumslip, and I sheeped Titus.

So there.

Oh, and you're a Traitor, so...

You're dropping a bomb of an allegation on Duck, and are not backing it up with anything.

You admit to sheeping Titus, WHY ARE YOU SHEEPING TITUS? In my eyes Titus hasn't done anything worthy of being sheeped even less so after she says not being up-to-date.
I don't know what to make of this Titus-KC interaction. It's an unhealthy and scummy one, but it's too obvious to be one...

Great, he just used the word retarded which basically tells me never to listen to him. Fun.

If people thought like you, no one would be listening anyone.

[Klingoncelt]

You're dropping a bomb of an allegation on Duck, and are not backing it up with anything.

You admit to sheeping Titus, WHY ARE YOU SHEEPING TITUS? In my eyes Titus hasn't done anything worthy of being sheeped even less so after she says not being up-to-date.
I don't know what to make of this Titus-KC interaction. It's an unhealthy and scummy one, but it's too obvious to be one...


If people thought like you, no one would be listening anyone.

You need to ISO me, I've explained my read on Duck pretty clearly.

Are you his Scumbuddy?

[Titus]

Yeah, why are you just calling me out now Nu?

Figuring out who people vote is a good tool for later.

[Kovath]

Thank god, we have 2 more hours lol.

I still stand by NU as my scumread in the group, going to go over his recent posts again.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Random thoughts on Kovath. Feel free to comment/disagree/discuss. (testing the spoiler mechanic, might fuck it up)

[spoiler]

Why were you originally planning to vote your own group?

Your one-game experience with Yuki was IM, wasn't it? How can you judge "day 2 player" off that?
What made you change your mind about RLVG?
Also, Calix is correct and I am currently out-of-town in a tournament. I will try my best but nowhere close to my normal activity levels. I'll be present for several-hour intervals around days.

Kovath opened with his typical not town, awkward questioning and bouncing. He is busy, however that does not change that his question was one that made him look like he was asking questions. Kovath usually asks more thought provoking and complex questions as town.
His second post is more of the same line of questioning. He knows for a fact my one game experience with Yuki was IM, and knows I either am lying or made an error. This seems very non-confrontational posing it as a question rather than trying to pressure me hard for an early inconsistency.

The setup has nothing at all about a scum N0 chat (unless it's a hidden mechanic in which case... fk me lol). So, this exchange strikes me as strange because Duck first suggests N0 coordination as what would probably be the case if he was mafia and had pre-planned this. Assuming that Duck has fully read through the setup, why wouldn't Duck immediately rule out that possibility for him as mafia in either his original post or after Calix brought it up? Or at least make some comment about it to reinforce his point that he wasn't lying in his claim?
Drunk Duck might be the explanation for this, however, and I don't think he was lying about being drunk lol. The primary no-lynch perspective otherwise I might see for this would be that he is approaching this game as town and thus brushes past it because then he would 'know' that he was town, but I am unsure whether he is able to so strongly believe it. All that said, there will probably be better lynches than Duck today.

Kind of like this post from Kovath. The whole “fk me lol”, is something he does when he does in regular relaxed conversations. If he was scum and out of town, and worrying about a tournament, HE WOULD NOT BE RELAXED. Scum can do this, but given his situation it feels town.

I'm not townreading him off his pushing because it was a push against the PL thing but for other reasons. See #309, basically little scum motivation in the push now that Duck's reversed his position + very easy for Mafia to have conformed with a "let's leave Duck alone" position like you and others have taken.
Duck is the unique outlier in regards to reads because of his claim. He's either Mafia and lying or literally a blank slate with no alignment. I'd rather read him tomorrow, and his not getting lynched reinforces that.
I like that you bring it up too, are you going to take it any further or just leave it hanging there?

Kovath seems to be working up to his town play after his weak opening. His posts have been progressively getting better. His reasoning for town reading RLVG is not one I agree with, but one I can understand.
Not wanting to read me until tomorrow is correct, but I wonder why he just brushes off the first part. If I am mafia and lying, or an unknown role, it is mechanically better to lynch me right away.

I want to know what changed from here to here, perhaps I missed something but I do want to hear it again anyways.

This is either Kovath being flat out lazy, or scum and trying to fake contribute again (Kovath post 472 for reference to the quotes).
Never Unlucky initially did not want to vote group 2 for reasons he mentioned, and then posts what changed his mind to thinking group 2 would be a viable target to lynch in. Kovath’s trying to make a connection and ask for a reasoning that is stated in the post. The post was also literally two lines, so how could he have missed the reasoning?

I do not like NU. His heavier posts read as very non-confrontational to me - I seriously doubt that he is finding it so difficult to scumread anyone and it really doesn't come off as natural; Town should have no compunctions or hesitations about making conclusions, yet I remember for instance that thing about town tone vs. IIoA -> null read, a large number of nulls.
His recent reads list on our group:
Not sure where the shift happened in regards to Gingerape. Part of it may just be due to lack of content (ex. the read on me) but I don't get a sense of conviction from this. Also, why was my townread reasoning unnatural and what does it mean, "something Unknown would say"?
He does a decent amount of busywork, asking players to give or explain their reads, though it feels a bit opportunistic to me (ex. response to RLVG comment about taking a small vacation). However, this was something I also read off him in IC when he was town so meh.
Basically despite his high volume of commenting and posting, a closer look at his comments and posts do not make me think he is really driving things or taking strong stances.

He dislikes NU for being non-confrontational yet I see the same in his interactions with me.


Hmm the rest of his posts seem to be him arguing with NU. I am not sure a busy Kovath as mafia spends the last several posts he has arguing with the second most town read player in Group 3.
I feel that Kovath opened the game terribly, but then stepped up his game, and finally regressed. This indicates to me that his trip is affecting his consistency and that his lack of play (the lazy quote for example) is due to time constraints and being preoccupied. When he has time he has made good posts, I am assuming these were at less hectic times in the day.
I believe it would have been an error to lynch Kovath, but not as egregious as lynching Yuki. If I am alive tomorrow I should be able to determine Kovath’s alignment for certainty.
[/spoiler]

[secondpassing]

Spoiler : Apparently a lot is going on but... :

I hope DUCKK learns to use the spoiler. You can do it!
As for your post on Kovath, I like it, in general. Are you going to voting Never Unlucky then I presume?

Host prolonging the day made everyone go away~
Come back~

[Yukitaka Oni]

I'll wait for that explanation then.



POE is a valid way of playing the game. Not sure I entirely agree on the trust point. A solid point is a solid point regardless of someone's reputation and if a scummy player comes in with a string of logical, well-founded points against another player, said points would be influential regardless. However I get that people can ignore valid posts if they're tunneling or something. (SP can attest to this re: Politico)

Well usually I would have ISOed each player but I thought that the day period was 48 hours so I was going to do that tomorrow morning. And now I only have a few hours to skim-read each player and go off my initial impressions which I'm not confident in at all.

I'm also doing several things at once right now so I might just switch to Ginger because of the Traitor thing that keeps cropping up and then reread overnight so that I can get my shit together with reads. I'm a complete mess right now with those.

Kovath is just like me, answering people question not directly to him, basically just want to get attention for being contributed like me. But he give no information about his thought around everyone like me so I disagree with the vote. Seem like Kovath want to avoid conflict like me today

[Yukitaka Oni]

THREE MINUTES ASSHOLES, the unvote and spread of trains is forcing a No Lynch.

Yukitaka Oni (3 [L-3]):
Titus, Klingoncelt, JealousTL

---

Kovath (3 [L-3]):
secondpassing, PLZLEAVEDUCKK, Calix

Chill bro, you really are on fire for a lynch train, not your style bro.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Apparently he softed TPR. Not sure if that's even true though.

While that isn't a factor in why I haven't voted for him, that's not BWCS in my eyes.

It's started with C and it end with N

[Kovath]

Define "as he does".

The town tone here cannot be unseen. Also being willing to be lynched instead of her good friend (How noble and cute ^^) is TOWN AF. Scum would feel the need to survive and push for someone else which looks more like Kovath's play.

Why is willing to be lynched instead of a friend town AF? This could definitely use more fleshing out, but as I'm reading it now it's being used mainly in order to flip the lynch onto me. A potential counterpoint is why he would do this instead of trying to push through an easier mislynch on Gingerape (as it was a pretty strong train at the time), but it could be part of leaving ML potential (i.e on me) in the future. It also could be confirmation bias running off of his earlier townpoints for Ginger for tone (weighed against the IIoA and such arg he was making), but either way this point needs more explanation because it's not compelling to me.

Also in what ways am I trying to survive and push for someone else? Gingerape's situation is explained by the fact that GA + Yuki were / are the main trains.

I think everyone is having this issue this game; there really isn't anyone standing out (Other than Duck), so Ginger not having strong S-R doesn't worry me yet. I'd be more worried if this behavior happened in later days.

...No?

Why the fuck are you asking someone who you haven’t stated you town-read who they are willing to vote?

Why do you agree with this (potential) buddying without having second thoughts?

I see a lot of these points / questions pressing issues or saying that something is scummy AF but where are the consequent scumreads? Instead there's the thing above about how "everyone is having difficulty with scumreads."

It would be anti-town if you were actively role-fishing; it isn't what you've done. You pointed out something that was ~obvious.

I don't understand the point of this comment and it feels like commenting for the sake of it. Could be town honestly stating this but could also be trying to establish some rapport with RLVG.

You seem to be fine with sheeping anyone as long as there's a lynch. Scummy af.
Not a fan of this slot content-wise nor action-wise.

Sheeping NAI, blah blah blah. You're not a fan of the slot, gonna take it anywhere further?

A lot of these questions are either probing or pressing things, I remember many comments about things being "scummy af" but there's just so much reluctance to actually make a scumread, the attempts I've seen like the reads list are so washy and nuanced that it's like, again, he's reluctantly reading someone as scum because there are no other options, not because he actually thinks so.

Also, wtf is with this idolatry of Calix lol

[Yukitaka Oni]

Spoiler : Apparently a lot is going on but... :

I hope DUCKK learns to use the spoiler. You can do it!
As for your post on Kovath, I like it, in general. Are you going to voting Never Unlucky then I presume?

Host prolonging the day made everyone go away~
Come back~

It's funny isn't? Both vote on me can find no other reason than being null even there are other null. It's called (Hater) for a reason. Sheeping and shit-voting. I laugh when it's happen like that to me every game