S-FM 208: Black Flag Nightless

[DarknessB]

Even the people who "scum-read you" (Eggy in particular, somewhat Iced) didn't want to vote you. They can argue they scum-read you, but did nothing. You are their queen.

Eggy mildly scumread Calix, it seems. Iced only did because Calix pushed him after Iced blamed her for not pressuring him to switch his Day 1 vote from SP to TDL. Iced's scumread of Calix was more reactionary IMO.

[Unknown1234]

You also deliberately defended NU so that people would make the NU/Calix association and think he was even more scummy. Otherwise, there was definitely enough rope to hang NU, especially by Day 3.

As of day 3 though, the only town that wanted to continue that was Eggy. Me and Iced didn't want to, and Spruance is Spruance.

[Calix]

Even the people who "scum-read you" (Eggy in particular, somewhat Iced) didn't want to vote you. They can argue they scum-read you, but did nothing. You are their queen.

It's because everyone is terrible at making any kind of legitimate case against me. I can run circles around half the "logic" being used and you have no chance of using meta arguments against me.

"But you were TOO aggressive - " - Nope, not a thing. I actually used to be far more aggressive than I have been the past few months (something that happened when I started revising for my exams and which I kept doing afterwards); my Day 3 play was comparatively tame.

[DarknessB]

It's because everyone is terrible at making any kind of legitimate case against me. I can run circles around half the "logic" being used and you have no chance of using meta arguments against me.

"But you were TOO aggressive - " - Nope, not a thing. I actually used to be far more aggressive than I have been the past few months (something that happened when I started revising for my exams and which I kept doing afterwards); my Day 3 play was comparatively tame.

People are afraid of making a scum case against you because you will defend yourself fearsomely and most people are too lazy to sit there and have a multi quote post war with you. This was an endemic problem during the entire game -- what happened to ISOs / detailed reads guys? Everything was fly by night and it showed in terms of the lack of thought out pushes.

[Unknown1234]

People are afraid of making a scum case against you because you will defend yourself fearsomely and most people are too lazy to sit there and have a multi quote post war with you. This was an endemic problem during the entire game -- what happened to ISOs / detailed reads guys? Everything was fly by night and it showed in terms of the lack of thought out pushes.

My head injury was kind of a issue for me. I was trying to avoid it mostly this game because it was really hard to make sense out of stuff.

[Unknown1234]

Nobody even has a backed up town-read of you either. I think it's just a Calix thing.

[DarknessB]

Nobody even has a backed up town-read of you either. I think it's just a Calix thing.

I think there are a number of reasons for this including volume (Calix posts so much that it would take a long time to ISO her or put together a detailed read on her), laziness (Calix comes off like she's contributing regardless of alignment so people prefer to spend their time analyzing elsewhere), and playstyle (some people don't spend too much time on their Townreads vs. their scumreads -- that tends to be an off-site strategy though and one that I've expressed my concerns with).

Giving a blind Townread (or scumread) to anyone is a bad idea though, as evident by this game. People honestly do the same thing with Spruance who was never seriously pushed or read this game just because of his playstyle. That is going to come back to bite people in the ass unless it changes -- just wait until Spruance rolls scum and gets the same free pass. Reminds me of Camp Mafia and the Yuki / ika slot which ended up being scum, but was ignored in terms of "too scummy / beginner / AFK to be scum". Terrible logic.

[Eggy]

How about no.

I was instrumental in helping town turn on each other as well with my tunneling on SP (thus getting a town lynched while leaving Kovath open as a ML option the next day) and getting Unknown mislynched on Day 3. Unknown was the only player who was even remotely clued in about what the scum were up to - good thing I didn't even have to make a 'case' against him...

Speaking of which, Day 3 was a bloody pain in the arse especially when my scum buddies were eating bonbons in a flooded basement while I was trying not to get my arse lynched because "lul RNG".

Saying that "Calix could have lurked" makes zero sense when that would have gotten me auto-lynched for "going against my meta"



4 Mafia in a 10/ 11 player game...are you mad?

Being scum in a marathon game is draining. Maybe it was just the fact that I couldn't solo it as scum, but I don't know wherever I'd want to do it again.

The only thing I agree with here is lurking would have been against your meta. If you were replaced with someone else who lurks as their meta we still would have lost. You were literally the only scum that was close to being lynched. Its a massive problem on this site that people who have a meta of not contributing get a free pass when they are scum.

[Eggy]

Those subtle maneuvers of hers ;)

LOOOOL yea wtf if NU didnt have the ultimate blind faith in calix things would have been different. I think she did the same things when he changed his vote from SP EOD now I know what to look for from scum calix. I was stupid though I should have kept my vote on calix instead of unknown.

[DarknessB]

The only thing I agree with here is lurking would have been against your meta. If you were replaced with someone else who lurks as their meta we still would have lost. You were literally the only scum that was close to being lynched. Its a massive problem on this site that people who have a meta of not contributing get a free pass when they are scum.

I agree -- Town need to police themselves because we don't have a large enough community where those types of players can be prevented from playing in games. For all the talk about policy lynching, it rarely happens, if ever. It's equal opportunity between Town and Scum, to be fair -- Mesk lurked this game in part due to RL issues, Spruance lurked heavily because he's Spruance, TDL and Kovath lurked because of RL issues, etc. That's one scum lurker and two Town lurkers (really 3 players, but 2 slots). IC was just as bad, if not wrose, with Gyrlander (literally posting crap on troll threads instead of playing our game), Simple Joy (very little posting perhaps due to schedules), Spruance (borderline), RLVG (computer issues), MattZed (replaced to collect the win essentially), etc.

It's not going to get better until / unless those players are called out and heavily pressured or lynched for their play. The problem, of course, is how balanced setups are and whether the Town can afford a policy lynch or not. In this type of a game, there was ample room for one, but the Town went for the insanely scummy SP instead of Spruance or Mesk, neither who had said much to that point in the game.

[Calix]

LOOOOL yea wtf if NU didnt have the ultimate blind faith in calix things would have been different. I think she did the same things when he changed his vote from SP EOD now I know what to look for from scum calix. I was stupid though I should have kept my vote on calix instead of unknown.

Break a leg. I'm going to fuck around with how I play for the next few games so anyone trying to meta-pleb me is going to have a hard time

Question. Why the fuck did nobody try to policy-lynch Mesk/ Spruance? Town had FOUR mislynches.

[DarknessB]

Break a leg. I'm going to fuck around with how I play for the next few games so anyone trying to meta-pleb me is going to have a hard time

Question. Why the fuck did nobody try to policy-lynch Mesk/ Spruance? Town had FOUR mislynches.

That really surprised me too. Yes, SP was acting scummy but Spurance and Mesk basically didn't show up -- Spruance very minimally, but it got worse as the game progressed. If nothing else, get rid of the slots that aren't doing anything if you have no solid scumreads. SP made sense but Kovath / TDL didn't particularly given Kovath not having time to play the game.

[Eggy]

Even the people who "scum-read you" (Eggy in particular, somewhat Iced) didn't want to vote you. They can argue they scum-read you, but did nothing. You are their queen.

I scum read her for all the wrong reasons, I didnt have a case on her I was using mainly pre-flip that she was NUs scum buddy but really she was just using NUs faith in her to guide him into the wrong decisions, Calix your a bad friend :P NU deserves better ;). Something I should work on is not tunneling I dont do it very often but I was so sure that NU was scum I didnt even pay attention to anyone else. So I didnt even really bother doing any real scum hunting. I still think if we had lynched NU way ealier I would have got my head out of my ass and found some real scum.

[deathworlds]

Mafiya chat

[Eggy]

I agree -- Town need to police themselves because we don't have a large enough community where those types of players can be prevented from playing in games. For all the talk about policy lynching, it rarely happens, if ever. It's equal opportunity between Town and Scum, to be fair -- Mesk lurked this game in part due to RL issues, Spruance lurked heavily because he's Spruance, TDL and Kovath lurked because of RL issues, etc. That's one scum lurker and two Town lurkers (really 3 players, but 2 slots). IC was just as bad, if not wrose, with Gyrlander (literally posting crap on troll threads instead of playing our game), Simple Joy (very little posting perhaps due to schedules), Spruance (borderline), RLVG (computer issues), MattZed (replaced to collect the win essentially), etc.

It's not going to get better until / unless those players are called out and heavily pressured or lynched for their play. The problem, of course, is how balanced setups are and whether the Town can afford a policy lynch or not. In this type of a game, there was ample room for one, but the Town went for the insanely scummy SP instead of Spruance or Mesk, neither who had said much to that point in the game.

I really didnt find SP scummy at all. from what i've seen on this site erratic behavior and strange logic is more indicative of being town than scum. scum is usually more careful with what they say.

[DarknessB]

I scum read her for all the wrong reasons, I didnt have a case on her I was using mainly pre-flip that she was NUs scum buddy but really she was just using NUs faith in her to guide him into the wrong decisions, Calix your a bad friend :P NU deserves better ;). Something I should work on is not tunneling I dont do it very often but I was so sure that NU was scum I didnt even pay attention to anyone else. So I didnt even really bother doing any real scum hunting. I still think if we had lynched NU way ealier I would have got my head out of my ass and found some real scum.

Calix was able to play on the fact that NU was such a divisive player in this game by buddying him as opposed to jumping on his train after Day 2. Since Calix is so hard to lynch generally, her buddying NU basically meant that everyone would be even more suspicious of NU/Calix as a scumteam. That, of anything, was her best manipulation in this game -- being able to play the meta against players like that. We played on the fact that everyone had such strong feelings against NU -- that's why we wanted him to survive into the end-game because we knew it would keep everyone from focusing elsewhere.

[Eggy]

Break a leg. I'm going to fuck around with how I play for the next few games so anyone trying to meta-pleb me is going to have a hard time

Question. Why the fuck did nobody try to policy-lynch Mesk/ Spruance? Town had FOUR mislynches.

The only thing I can say is after seeing NU doing the same thing to SP that he did to Funce the game before I was so positive he was scum that I was not really willing to vote anyone else.

[DarknessB]

I really didnt find SP scummy at all. from what i've seen on this site erratic behavior and strange logic is more indicative of being town than scum. scum is usually more careful with what they say.

Sure, but SP being bizarre is NAI in terms of SP. Other players acting like that would be obvious scum in terms of the self-centered play, emphasis on survival vs. scumhunting, and scumreading everyone who accused him. I think the issue there was that SP's playstyle is very odd vs. his play not being scummy.

I even pointed this out during Day 1 in terms of SP's tendency to adopt a "strategy of the day", which I dubbed "soup of the day" playstyle.

[Eggy]

Calix was able to play on the fact that NU was such a divisive player in this game by buddying him as opposed to jumping on his train after Day 2. Since Calix is so hard to lynch generally, her buddying NU basically meant that everyone would be even more suspicious of NU/Calix as a scumteam. That, of anything, was her best manipulation in this game -- being able to play the meta against players like that. We played on the fact that everyone had such strong feelings against NU -- that's why we wanted him to survive into the end-game because we knew it would keep everyone from focusing elsewhere.

Yea thats why I wanted him dead even if he was town which is what I said and explained D3, he initially agreed to it but backed out latter which made me even more convinced he was scum. I think at that ppoint it was in towns benefit for him to die. But even then I doubt I would have voted calix once he flipped town

[Never Unlucky]

LOOOOL yea wtf if NU didnt have the ultimate blind faith in calix things would have been different. I think she did the same things when he changed his vote from SP EOD now I know what to look for from scum calix. I was stupid though I should have kept my vote on calix instead of unknown.

You did a similar thing with Mesk, lol.

I scum read her for all the wrong reasons, I didnt have a case on her I was using mainly pre-flip that she was NUs scum buddy but really she was just using NUs faith in her to guide him into the wrong decisions, Calix your a bad friend :P NU deserves better ;). Something I should work on is not tunneling I dont do it very often but I was so sure that NU was scum I didnt even pay attention to anyone else. So I didnt even really bother doing any real scum hunting. I still think if we had lynched NU way ealier I would have got my head out of my ass and found some real scum.

Yeah, she used me like a sock; she used me to get the dirty work done for her then threw me away when I started crumbling down.
I felt ashamed and sort of betrayed when it was confirmed that she was a Goon. I can't blame her though. She played to her win condition.

[Eggy]

Sure, but SP being bizarre is NAI in terms of SP. Other players acting like that would be obvious scum in terms of the self-centered play, emphasis on survival vs. scumhunting, and scumreading everyone who accused him. I think the issue there was that SP's playstyle is very odd vs. his play not being scummy.

I even pointed this out during Day 1 in terms of SP's tendency to adopt a "strategy of the day", which I dubbed "soup of the day" playstyle.

Yes I agree 100% if you or calix were playing like that I would not doubt for a second you would be the first lynch but I didnt remember ever playing with SP and I just came out of the begginer game where the only people really using logic was me and mesk and we were both scum. Mino was only town player who exibited pro town behavior

[Eggy]

You did a similar thing with Mesk, lol.


Yeah, she used me like a sock; she used me to get the dirty work done for her then threw me away when I started crumbling down.
I felt ashamed and sort of betrayed when it was confirmed that she was a Goon. I can't blame her though. She played to her win condition.

Your right Im heart broken :/. I did just play as her scum buddy thought and she was a lot more active and seemed to care more so I decided to read her off of recent meta which didnt work out well. I think we both learned that friendship is not a good way to establish reads in this game.

I cant blame you either buddy I would probably have done the same thing in your situation but now we have both learned our lesson and it wont happen again I bet. She is pretty manipulative though I would feel hurt

[Eggy]

@Unknown1234 Sorry for being an asshole. I did scum read you but I think its mostly because of your IRL issues. I found your play different from IC but in the end it was the same thing Calix painting you as scum and people sheeping it. I actually scum read you since D1 I think maybe D2 but spruance just showed up and threw a vote on you for no reason other than "yes master Calix". I find spruance literally impossible to read.3

[DarknessB]

Yea thats why I wanted him dead even if he was town which is what I said and explained D3, he initially agreed to it but backed out latter which made me even more convinced he was scum. I think at that ppoint it was in towns benefit for him to die. But even then I doubt I would have voted calix once he flipped town

Yup, same reason we wanted him alive, lol -- because we knew it would drive people nuts and distract the Town. I agree that the flipflopping by him hurt his credibility a lot this game -- just as much when he would always change his vote toward EOD, which made it seems like he was trying to avoid responsibility for the lynch that he had created. That's also why we were pushing on the Iced or Unknown lynch -- because we figured the Town would have had a much better shot with the NU cloud gone in LYLO.

[DarknessB]

You did a similar thing with Mesk, lol.


Yeah, she used me like a sock; she used me to get the dirty work done for her then threw me away when I started crumbling down.
I felt ashamed and sort of betrayed when it was confirmed that she was a Goon. I can't blame her though. She played to her win condition.

Yes, that's how pocketing Town members works at Mafia. No one threw you away -- we let you survive into LYLO because you were being a disruption and throwing the Town off. No offense, but the betrayal thing is dumb -- it's a game and you get assigned a random role. That's why you should automatically read a slot based on the player. As you say, Calix played to her wincon just like you did. It's not supposed to be personal. In fact, you should have been more offended if Calix tried to take it easy on you because you are friends with her.

[DarknessB]

Yes I agree 100% if you or calix were playing like that I would not doubt for a second you would be the first lynch but I didnt remember ever playing with SP and I just came out of the begginer game where the only people really using logic was me and mesk and we were both scum. Mino was only town player who exibited pro town behavior

In that sense, I feel like it was very fair / logical of the Town to lynch SP. I.e. we shouldn't give players a pass for being scummy too often because that means if / when SP rolls scum and is acting like that, it wouldn't be smart to ignore that behavior just because he's SP. Same is true of Spruance, for example -- I'd rather be critical of him versus saying "oh, it's just Spruance" because that will come back to screw us over one day.

This is basically the critique of meta reads in a nutshell. They have a place, but they shouldn't be the sole reason you think someone is Mafia or Town.

[Calix]

@Unknown1234 Sorry for being an asshole. I did scum read you but I think its mostly because of your IRL issues. I found your play different from IC but in the end it was the same thing Calix painting you as scum and people sheeping it. I actually scum read you since D1 I think maybe D2 but spruance just showed up and threw a vote on you for no reason other than "yes master Calix". I find spruance literally impossible to read.3

Did I even make a decent case on Unknown? I never reread his posts so I just accused him based on 'gut' and then twisted his responses so that people would scum-read him, honestly.

Yes, that's how pocketing Town members works at Mafia. No one threw you away -- we let you survive into LYLO because you were being a disruption and throwing the Town off. No offense, but the betrayal thing is dumb -- it's a game and you get assigned a random role. That's why you should automatically read a slot based on the player. As you say, Calix played to her wincon just like you did. It's not supposed to be personal. In fact, you should have been more offended if Calix tried to take it easy on you because you are friends with her.

I am glad that Eggy/ NU are learning something about being overly trusting of other players.

NU blindly town-reading me is 100% something that I would take advantage of if it meant that I had a better chance at winning. It was why we never tried to lynch Eggy either - he was town-reading Mesk so that would be one less town vote that could be used against her.

[DarknessB]

Did I even make a decent case on Unknown? I never reread his posts so I just accused him based on 'gut' and then twisted his responses so that people would scum-read him, honestly.



I am glad that Eggy/ NU are learning something about being overly trusting of other players.

NU blindly town-reading me is 100% something that I would take advantage of if it meant that I had a better chance at winning. It was why we never tried to lynch Eggy either - he was town-reading Mesk so that would be one less town vote that could be used against her.

Agreed -- we were lucky that Mesk and Calix rolled scum with Eggy townreading Mesk strongly and NU townreading Calix strongly. That contributed to us having a much easier time keeping them both safe and was part of the reason we didn't push either Eggy or NU that much vs. other players.

[MattZed]

Game has been added to the ladder!