Host/Moderator Responsibility And Threats

[ThePaladin]

Host's discretion, like anything else. You can't have a bright line rule here given every situation will be different.

This is more in reference if this became site-wide although we should probably focus on whether or not we should currently before getting into the small specifics.

[DarknessB]

This is more in reference if this became site-wide although we should probably focus on whether or not we should currently before getting into the small specifics.

Even it becomes sitewide, hosts have to interpret the rule in the first instance. MZ and Orpz don't typically get involved until after the host hashes out what the immediate impact to the game is. Their role is more supplementary discipline, if any.

[BananaCucho]

That's good and all but what about new players who haven't played before and we don't have information on playstyle.
What if old players who traditionally don't follow this decide to try it?

The point of this thread is about

*State of Site
*How To Remedy Behavoir that is considered distasteful
*What qualifies within freedom of speech and its boundaries
*Whether Action Or Inaction against this behavior Should Be Standardized or Up To Host
*Helping Hosts Setup Rules

How many players are ruining games over and over in this manner?

One. Complain all you want about other players lacking logic, judgment, lurking, trolling, or whatever your complaint may be, there is mo other player like the one in question. I've never considered x, y, or z player to be perma banned from my games. Just the one dick sucker.

[ThePaladin]

How many players are ruining games over and over in this manner?

One. Complain all you want about other players lacking logic, judgment, lurking, trolling, or whatever your complaint may be, there is mo other player like the one in question. I've never considered x, y, or z player to be perma banned from my games. Just the one dick sucker.

Actually no.

We used to have a player named frog who famously left the site(I think)
after he threatened to gamethrow after people chose not to follow his strictly dominant strategy.

Note: May be wrong in that he didn't threaten to, just stated that other players were gamethrowing and thought it was terrible.


The point is we have approximately 4 games running at a time.
A player can usually only play 2 games with the attention needed.
See

But lurking as a behavoir is very different from gamethrowing as a behavoir or in this case threatening to, or the like.
There are reasons why sites have rules and not just if you don't like guy x cause of his behavoir don't play with him.
There's a difference between being someone who is playing the game against how it was intended/balanced/etc. versus someone's playstyle within those rules.

Why do we say you aren't allowed to look at people's cards in card games instead of just saying if thats a person behavoir don't play with them.

[BananaCucho]

Actually no.

We used to have a player named frog who famously left the site(I think)
after he threatened to gamethrow after people chose not to follow his strictly dominant strategy.

The point is we have approximately 4 games running at a time.
A player can usually only play 2 games with the attention needed.
See

But lurking as a behavoir is very different from gamethrowing as a behavoir or in this case threatening to, or the like.

Frog was accusing Sen and other of gamethrowing and then OGC'd. Different story, he should have known he was out of line and was punished accordingly.

[DarknessB]

Actually no.

We used to have a player named frog who famously left the site(I think)
after he threatened to gamethrow after people chose not to follow his strictly dominant strategy.

The point is we have approximately 4 games running at a time.
A player can usually only play 2 games with the attention needed.
See

But lurking as a behavoir is very different from gamethrowing as a behavoir or in this case threatening to, or the like.

Yes, that situation resolved itself with the player choosing to leave the community so it is no longer an issue. That player also had a meltdown in that particular instance, which spanned two games going on at the same time. He was not pushing the boundaries of the rules in every game he played and in fact, he had a long history of playing cleanly in games here. Not quite the same IMO.

[ThePaladin]

Yes, that situation resolved itself with the player choosing to leave the community so it is no longer an issue. That player also had a meltdown in that particular instance, which spanned two games going on at the same time. He was not pushing the boundaries of the rules in every game he played and in fact, he had a long history of playing cleanly in games here. Not quite the same IMO.

I was using it as an example to him saying it was only one player, he's just fist guy to come to mind.

[DarknessB]

I was using it as an example to him saying it was only one player, he's just fist guy to come to mind.

Banana's point is fair though -- practically everyone else / everyone else active right now seems to understand the concept of not pushing the boundaries of the rules, as opposed to almost seeking out loopholes and ways to exploit games which have a negative effect on the community.

[DarknessB]

Candidly, we don't have a large enough FM community to allow for blacklists or hosts refusing signs like they do in other communities like Mafiascum. That's why it's more of an issue of making sure we have the right rules in place.

[ThePaladin]

Banana's point is fair though -- practically everyone else / everyone else active right now seems to understand the concept of not pushing the boundaries of the rules, as opposed to almost seeking out loopholes and ways to exploit games which have a negative effect on the community.

Let's say if we were at a casino and there were only 2 poker tables.
One guy always looked at other player's cards at one and no one did at the other and it's allowed at this casino.
So you usually go to the other, now the another player either new or a person who decided to copy this behavior does it at the other table.
Now where do you go or do you go ask the casino about whether this should be allowed or not and hope that change it?

The point is, as this site grows we are going to have new players, but for the most part we can only have about 4 games going at a time. A player can play about 2 games with the needed amount of attention as well. If we only had one player that means you can feesibly only play 2 of the setups which aren't exactly of your choosing because a player has a behavoir which is extremely distasteful.
If one didn't want to play with a player because of lurking, you can still manage to play with that player and it won't change the game outcome too much by that player's behavoir. However the same does not apply for threats to gamethrow because of the severity of the dillema it causes.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Candidly, we don't have a large enough FM community to allow for blacklists or hosts refusing signs like they do in other communities like Mafiascum. That's why it's more of an issue of making sure we have the right rules in place.

Nah it is cool, if my play style is ruining games for other people on the website I won't sign up and ruin the games for them. The goal was to push town in the correct direction (away from kovath), and not try to ruin the game for others. I specifically asked mattzed about it because he was the host and one of the main FM people on the website. My play in qt 3.14 was seen as against the rules despite not specifically stated, so I thought I was fine since I specifically asked about it this time.

[ThePaladin]

The dillema of a person saying.
I'm investigative and i'll reveal the 3 best town tpr's right now is much different from a lesser behavoir such as shitposting,lurking,etc.

If he's bluffing and you don't follow you are screwed.
If he's not bluffing and you don't follow you're okay.
And it's not like you can just lynch the guy cause of lw's or posting it right b4 he get's lynched.

[ThePaladin]

Nah it is cool, if my play style is ruining games for other people on the website I won't sign up and ruin the games for them. The goal was to push town in the correct direction (away from kovath), and not try to ruin the game for others. I specifically asked mattzed about it because he was the host and one of the main FM people on the website. My play in qt 3.14 was seen as against the rules despite not specifically stated, so I thought I was fine since I specifically asked about it this time.

I would assume that threatening to gamethrow isn't exactly normal behavoir? (I hope)

But this thread may be a response to seeing your play but it isn't the first time that we have seen threats to gamethrow.
Think of it as a breaking point. Outside of threatening to gamethrow, although your behavoir wasn't recommended( in hindsight, I can see how your beguiler claim would make lots of sense as a super-tpr), you are still a fine player.

[BananaCucho]

Nah it is cool, if my play style is ruining games for other people on the website I won't sign up and ruin the games for them. The goal was to push town in the correct direction (away from kovath), and not try to ruin the game for others. I specifically asked mattzed about it because he was the host and one of the main FM people on the website. My play in qt 3.14 was seen as against the rules despite not specifically stated, so I thought I was fine since I specifically asked about it this time.

Eat a dick, asshole.

[Brendan]

I can't see how the example is relevant. Although I don't oppose the proposed rule, I am of the opinion that it is unnecessary. We should preserve the freedom of speech in mafia, if a player threatens to game-throw, it may be a valid scum tactic. In the case of a confirmed town threatening to game-throw (obviously some people are pertaining to SexyDucK's play in the last S-FM), its up to the other players as to how they want to react. Keep in mind that the act of game-throwing is still not allowed. Keep in mind that said confirmed town may be using the tactic in an effort to win the game.

this

[ThePaladin]

this

It's the equivalent of playing poker and saying, if you don't fold right here, I am going to grab my chips and run away so you can't collect on the bet for the round -- it's your choice! Even if you didn't mean it, I'm pretty sure you're getting thrown out of the casino at that point.

Do you feel that these 2 behavoir coorelate?

and if so why is it allowed in one and not the other?

[Brendan]

Do you feel that these 2 behavoir coorelate?

and if so why is it allowed in one and not the other?

No.
If you want to play differently because someone threatened to game throw that's playing into part of the player threatening to gamethrow's strategy. If they were to actually game throw they wouldn't be able to play another game on this site. idgi

[DarknessB]

No.
If you want to play differently because someone threatened to game throw that's playing into part of the player threatening to gamethrow's strategy. If they were to actually game throw they wouldn't be able to play another game on this site. idgi

This behavior wouldn't be allowed in any other competitive type of game or sport. If you threaten to flip over the board if a player in a chess game moves his Queen to a certain space, you are getting disqualified from the match without further discussion. It's incredibly poor sportsmanship and shows disrespect to your fellow competitors to make your adherence to the rules of the game conditional.

[ThePaladin]

No.
If you want to play differently because someone threatened to game throw that's playing into part of the player threatening to gamethrow's strategy. If they were to actually game throw they wouldn't be able to play another game on this site. idgi

Then what is the point of it even being allowed. This thing is allowed but if you actually do what you said it's punishable...?
Why not just make both disallowed?

How are the 2 examples different?
If the poker player didn't fold and the threatener countinued to play then he still gets kicked out of the casino.
If the mafia player didn't follow through his demands and the threatener countinued to play he still __________

[ThePaladin]

I'd like to see a player in the COPA America or UEFA Euro Cups try to threaten taking the ball and running off field with it if his teamates or the other team didn't do a certain play. Love to see how that turns out. As long as he didn't follow through he wouldn't be carded i'm sure. /s

[Quick]

No.
If you want to play differently because someone threatened to game throw that's playing into part of the player threatening to gamethrow's strategy. If they were to actually game throw they wouldn't be able to play another game on this site. idgi

This needs to be a site wide observation.. if there is any doubt that stating you will game throw if X does or does not happen is nothing but a bluff, then it should be perfectly clear that that is the case. People are very invested in the games they are involved in and as such, they do not want to sacrifice the game in question however short sighted that perspective may be. This should be explained to new players and players who will start playing on this site in the future who will never prolly even see this thread.

[DarknessB]

I'd like to see a player in the COPA America or Euro Cups try to threaten taking the ball and running off field with it if his teamates or the other team didn't do a certain play. Love to see how that turns out. As long as he didn't follow through he wouldn't be carded i'm sure. /s

Yes, there's an offense that deals with this in soccer / football called "unsporting behavior" -- as in, the referee can give you a red card for any conduct that violates the "spirit of the game". Pretty sure the player in question would get a red card and tossed out.

[ThePaladin]

This needs to be a site wide observation.. if there is any doubt that stating you will game throw if X does or does not happen is nothing but a bluff, then it should be perfectly clear that that is the case. People are very invested in the games they are involved in and as such, they do not want to sacrifice the game in question however short sighted that perspective may be. This should be explained to new players and players who will start playing on this site in the future who will never prolly even see this thread.

But at that point why would should we even allow the threat? especially since it's not allowed under the equivalent in any other game?

I feel like we aren't solving the problem at the root that way.

Why don't we allow players to say I'm going to murder you brutally with a sickle if you don't unvote or vote guy X in games? Clearly it's understood the person won't follow through more-so than the former.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Yes, there's an offense that deals with this in soccer / football called "unsporting behavior" -- as in, the referee can give you a red card for any conduct that violates the "spirit of the game". Pretty sure the player in question would get a red card and tossed out.

Except soccer is not a game of deception. In this case the threat was used for a player to get another player to vote with them to win the game, and not to lose the game. How is it any different than a vigilante saying, vote with me or I will shoot you in the night?

[DarknessB]

Here's what some of us seem to be missing -- merely because Mafia is a game of deception doesn't mean there shouldn't be SOME ground rules. The deception is within the construct of playing as your role and to your role's win condition. We have restrictions on plenty of other types of conduct like excessive personal attacks, OGC, revealing host communications, etc. Why should this be any different?

[ThePaladin]

Except soccer is not a game of deception. In this case the threat was used for a player to get another player to vote with them to win the game, and not to lose the game. How is it any different than a vigilante saying, vote with me or I will shoot you in the night?

Technically you can argue every game is a game of deception. Hey you can fake like you are going to kick one way but kick the other.

Also see Chess and Poker Examples (both are games of deception,especially poker.)

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Technically you can argue every game is a game of deception. Hey you can fake like you are going to kick one way but kick the other.

Also see Chess and Poker Examples (both are games of deception,especially poker.)

I mean I guess, the chess and poker examples do not really hold up though.

[DarknessB]

Except soccer is not a game of deception. In this case the threat was used for a player to get another player to vote with them to win the game, and not to lose the game. How is it any different than a vigilante saying, vote with me or I will shoot you in the night?

A game of deception still has some rules. Threatening to ruin the game is breaking the four walls of the game. If it's a game of deception, why do we have OGC rules or personal attack rules or quoting host communications / role card rules? Anything should go if we're dealing with deception, right?

[ThePaladin]

I mean I guess, the chess and poker examples do not really hold up though.

Threatening to take your chips and leave the table while a round is playing is equivalent.

Chinese Checkers has multiple people. You could gamethrow and knock another player out of the game. You can also threaten this behavoir
Both of which are disallowed.

[BananaCucho]

Idk why anyone continues to argue with PLZLEAVEDICKK. It's obvious he will not yield.

He offered to leave, let him leave. Just ignore him until he does. Continuing to argue with him gives him a reason to stick around.

[ThePaladin]

But at that point why would should we even allow the threat? especially since it's not allowed under the equivalent in any other game?

I feel like we aren't solving the problem at the root that way.

Why don't we allow players to say I'm going to murder you brutally with a sickle if you don't unvote or vote guy X in games? Clearly it's understood the person won't follow through more-so than the former.

Also I want to reiterate this.

This should be considered on the same level as threatening to gamethrow correct?

[BananaCucho]

For the record, this is my last game on this website, but I love both you and kovath. The others that I know before this game, can go fuck themselves. (except mesk because she said she wouldnt be on tongith)

Problem solved. Thread can be closed now.

[ThePaladin]

Problem solved. Thread can be closed now.

I will reiterate again and hopefully the last time.

Although This thread was made out of what happened in the last game.

It has been a problem that occurs in a noticable amount of games not exclusive to One player.

Also this is in general(not specific to Mafia Wars II, but certainly as a response to it).

[BananaCucho]

I will reiterate again and hopefully the last time.

Although This thread was made out of what happened in the last game.

It has been a problem that occurs in a noticable amount of games not exclusive to One player.

Also this is in general(not specific to Mafia Wars II, but certainly as a response to it).

Naw, most postgame rants are about lurking or shitposting, not threatening to gamethrow. This thread is 100% about one user. You just don't want to come out and say it because you fear the ban hammer.

[ThePaladin]

Naw, most postgame rants are about lurking or shitposting, not threatening to gamethrow. This thread is 100% about one user. You just don't want to come out and say it because you fear the ban hammer.

A=Why would I fear being banned?
B=We've had this problem occur before although that was b4 i took my hiatus(first game since I came back btw)
C=Did I say most? no. I said a noticable amount.
This is also about the future of the site and how to deal with this behavoir and if it should be stated for any new players coming it or to disuade old players from using this.

[BananaCucho]

A=Why would I fear being banned?
B=We've had this problem occur before although that was b4 i took my hiatus(first game since I came back btw)
C=Did I say most? no. I said a noticable amount.
This is also about the future of the site and how to deal with this behavoir and if it should be stated for any new players coming it or to disuade old players from using this.

Name all of the S-FMs where this has been a problem, and the offender. Then we'll see how "noticeable" this really is.

[ThePaladin]

Name all of the S-FMs where this has been a problem, and the offender. Then we'll see how "noticeable" this really is.

I do not care to read through all the old s-fm's I played b4 my 5 month hiatus.

Also, I do not see how active this is as relevant to having a discussion.

Let's say theres an alien who comes and abducts people every 4 years, but we could make a rule that would stop the alien from doing it.
It's not a large amount but we should still make the rule.

[BananaCucho]

I do not care to read through all the old s-fm's I played b4 my 5 month hiatus.

Also, I do not see how active this is as relevant to having a discussion.

Let's say theres an alien who comes and abducts people every 4 years, but we could make a rule that would stop the alien from doing it.
It's not a large amount but we should still make the rule.

Right, because there is only one person causing this problem.

If you state something as fact you have to back it up

This thread was about Dick, who is leaving. Thread over.

[ThePaladin]

Right, because there is only one person causing this problem.

If you state something as fact you have to back it up

This thread was about Dick, who is leaving. Thread over.

If you do not wish to comment on the issue with the thread, why are you?
Do you find coming into areas and saying why are you talking about this cause you shouldn't helpful?

Also frog threatened to gamethrow in toadette's game if sen wasn't lynched.
he was punished cause he wasn't going to play to win and stuff like OGC, but the point still applies.

It's happened b4. I am sorry that I do not wish to read through a minimum of 3000pages to find examples.
I am sure someone else can vouch for it happening before in other cases.

Also you are ignoring the possibility of new players.

[BananaCucho]

If you do not wish to comment on the issue with the thread, why are you?
Do you find coming into areas and saying why are you talking about this cause you shouldn't helpful?

Also frog threatened to gamethrow in toadette's game if sen wasn't lynched.
he was punished cause he wasn't going to play to win and stuff like OGC, but the point still applies.

It's happened b4. I am sorry that I do not wish to read through a minimum of 3000pages to find examples.
I am sure someone else can vouch for it happening before in other cases.

Also you are ignoring the possibility of new players.

You are exaggerating a problem that dies not exist and it is pointless.

If you want to continue this circlejerk of analogies about soccer and chess and sex and whatever, be my guest, but its a waste of energy because this is a one off case about one player.

At least be honest about it though. This thread is about Dick. Plain and simple.

[DarknessB]

If you do not wish to comment on the issue with the thread, why are you?
Do you find coming into areas and saying why are you talking about this cause you shouldn't helpful?

Also frog threatened to gamethrow in toadette's game if sen wasn't lynched.
he was punished cause he wasn't going to play to win and stuff like OGC, but the point still applies.

It's happened b4. I am sorry that I do not wish to read through a minimum of 3000pages to find examples.
I am sure someone else can vouch for it happening before in other cases.

Also you are ignoring the possibility of new players.

Yes, Banana is totally unsympathetic to the plight of Toadette. Seriously, Banana -- WTF?

[Calix]

Yes, Banana is totally unsympathetic to the plight of Toadette. Seriously, Banana -- WTF?

Should we tell him?

[DarknessB]

Should we tell him?

Paladin, have you ever seen the critically acclaimed movie Ace Ventura: Pet Detective? You might say that Banana and Ray Finkle have something in common...

[ThePaladin]

Paladin, have you ever seen the critically acclaimed movie Ace Ventura: Pet Detective? You might say that Banana and Ray Finkle have something in common...

Unfortuantely, No. I never really and still don't watch very many movies

[Calix]

Unfortuantely, No. I never really and still don't watch very many movies

BananaCucho = Toadette

lol

[ThePaladin]

BananaCucho = Toadette

lol

THE POINT STILL APPLIES DAMMIT

[Toadette]

BananaCucho = Toadette

lol

Why do people keep saying this when its not true!!

[BananaCucho]

Why do people keep saying this when its not true!!

Cats out of the bag, love

[DarknessB]

Why do people keep saying this when its not true!!

If it's not true, explain this:

[ThePaladin]

I'm going to murder you all brutally with a sickle....