Setup Discussion for Starter Game.

[SuperJack]

Hello.

Once again we are starting a new starter game. And I am interested with feedback from the last game. (Both Players, Mentors and Viewers)
Last game used this Matrix6 which some players, for their first game, did not fully grasp how it worked. (This may be related to how well it was explained)
The general summery of how the starter game should be build around is:
- 7 to 9 players
- Simple Power roles
- Mostly Vanilla
- Normal Setup

If no other option is reach it will basically be:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Consort
Mafioso

[DarknessB]

Setup looks good to me. Would be helpful to go over some other rule considerations as well:

1. Last Wills -- Presumably allowed.
2. Posting Requirements -- 5 per day / host's discretion? I would recommend host's discretion to avoid players being able to remain in the game on a technicality even if they are not really participating.
3. Reserves -- We should have at least a couple of reserves lined up in case players choose to / need to be replaced.
4. In-Game Vets -- In the interest of shaking it up and spurring conversation, I would be in favor of say 2 more experienced players in this game, but not super experienced.
5. Mentors -- Can't hurt to allow the new players to have a mentor with whom they can chat with during the game realtime. Sort of like last time, except maybe emphasize that they can use the mentors as much as possible (telling the mentors this too).
6. Day / Night Cycles -- 48/24?

[Unknown1234]

Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game. When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.

Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.

[DarknessB]

My thoughts in blue below:

Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game.
Last time around, a number of players were confused by the matrix. Given this is the first game for many players, the risk of confusing them seems higher than anything else. When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.
7 is too small IMO -- you might very well be looking at 5-2 to start, which would go to 4-2 with a mislynch, 3-2 with a night kill. Don't want a very possible Day 2 LYLO situation for newcomers.

Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.
Again, it's a beginner's game so you'd rather keep it simple and focus on fundamentals of teaching players to scumhunt, etc. We don't want blingy roles in the game because that makes the game more about the TPRs and less about scumhunting. Better players win and lose based on their reads vs. based on night action madness.

[Cryptonic]

5v2 is a fine size for a small game. best for basic imo, 5v2, 72 hr days

[Yukitaka Oni]

I'm a citizen, i know the feel v(o.o(<

[Yukitaka Oni]

I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)

[DarknessB]

I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)

The initial thought had been players with a little bit of experience, but who could benefit from some additional game time -- such as some of our recent newcomers -- Unknown, Mesk, Eggy or some medium experience players who want to practice a little more -- Gyrlander, Funce, AIVION, Mikecall, Secondpassing, etc.

[Cryptonic]

If no other option is reach it will basically be:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Consort
Mafioso

Town would steamroll this

[DarknessB]

Town would steamroll this

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

[Unknown1234]

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.

Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.

[Cryptonic]

Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.

Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.

Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was

[Unknown1234]

Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was

Last save was swapping detective and sheriff.
Swapping Mafioso instead of consort as well.

I guess that makes sense, just depends how long sheriff stays hidden and who he checks.

[SuperJack]

Town would steamroll this

56.8% (44 games) are a town win. (Stealing information from the web)

[Cryptonic]

56.8% (44 games) are a town win. (Stealing information from the web)

Link me, please.
Every one i've seen is 51:49 for 5v2 (2 less Citizens)

[SuperJack]

Link me, please.
Every one i've seen is 51:49 for 5v2 (2 less Citizens)

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

Stolen from Line 2.

Oh, and I'm not argueing that 7 players is bad. I'm just saying that 7v2 isnt town steamroll.

[Cryptonic]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

Stolen from Line 2.

Oh, and I'm not argueing that 7 players is bad. I'm just saying that 7v2 isnt town steamroll.

57% is a huge advantage, though. 14% spread

[SuperJack]

The idea of this thread was if people have any other suggestions for the setup.

And if they dont, I'll stick with that basic one.

[Cryptonic]

See, look:

https://epicmafia.com/setup/693

[Quick]

See, look:

https://epicmafia.com/setup/693

Epic mafia is not exactly the gold standard IMO.

[Cryptonic]

Epic mafia is not exactly the gold standard IMO.

Obviously not, but the numbers are fairly accurate when you're working with such a large survey size.

[Quick]

Obviously not, but the numbers are fairly accurate when you're working with such a large survey size.

My point is, if you are going to take from a source where quality is not primary, what is even the point?

[Cryptonic]

My point is, if you are going to take from a source where quality is not primary, what is even the point?

Because both sides are of the same quality. When something has been played that many times, you have such a decent sample that the numbers are accurate regardless of skill level skew of a few hundred games.

[secondpassing]

I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.

[DarknessB]

I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.

Absolutely not -- strategy is extremely subjective and we should not be endorsing approaches on the role card of all places. We have a Wiki and other sections for practice pointers. Players also have the option of a mentor to get advice on how to play a role. The host should not be attempting to push people into strategies in the game instructions.

[Yukitaka Oni]

/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>

[DarknessB]

/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>

Speaking of which, SuperJack, please have a dead chat / observer's chat QT for this game. Don't think there was one last time.

[MattZed]

Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

[Unknown1234]

Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over

[MattZed]

The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over

I'm proposing BD as an alternative to Sheriffs or other investigative precisely because it encourages reading people and trying to figure out who to try to run over.

If game ends N1, it's because the town played very well.

[SuperJack]

Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback

[MattZed]

Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback

I'd agree.

Also BD can't bus self.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Mafia have beguiler? Maybe?

[DarknessB]

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

[MattZed]

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

[DarknessB]

Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?

[MattZed]

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?

"99%" is a fair bit of an exaggeration. For instance, S-FMs 196, 197, and 199 did not have town investigative roles.

[Cryptonic]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

[Gyrlander]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

HMMM That's a great idea. Maybe the begginers should choose what setup they want to play? (interesting or basic)

[Unknown1234]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

This.

[secondpassing]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

This x3

[DarknessB]

This x3

This from the guy who wanted to put a MAYOR in the Beginner's Game. Because clearly, newbie Mayors in games have worked out so well -- FF7 was just a lovely game for the Town...

[powerofdeath]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

Yeah, I remember my first FM, slaol and ika were the hosts of cops and robbers and I remember how very different and unique the roles are, and it got me very hooked.

[DarknessB]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

[Gyrlander]

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

Please.

[SuperJack]

Then I implore someone to bring a game suitable for newbies yet unique and fun.

[Quick]

Then I implore someone to bring a game suitable for newbies yet unique and fun.

Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Mafioso
Mafioso

This setup takes the most skill of What is actually itt IMO.


As an aside:
1) adding an uber complicated setup is not newbie friendly
2) In my experience Mafia have a better chance of winning in a game with beginners.

[DarknessB]

Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Mafioso
Mafioso

This setup takes the most skill of What is actually itt IMO.


As an aside:
1) adding an uber complicated setup is not newbie friendly
2) In my experience Mafia have a better chance of winning in a game with beginners.

This is basically Camp Mafia without the tied lynch mechanic. I agree with Crypt that most newbies would find it excessively flat though and we should strive to be a little more lively in terms of fostering longer term interest in the game. On the other hand, I agree with Quick that the Mafia stand a better shot in beginner games because no one knows how to scumhunt and they are informed. Also, lurkers are often given a pass in beginner games because people aren't confident enough to push them.

[Quick]

This is basically Camp Mafia without the tied lynch mechanic. I agree with Crypt that most newbies would find it excessively flat though and we should strive to be a little more lively in terms of fostering longer term interest in the game. On the other hand, I agree with Quick that the Mafia stand a better shot in beginner games because no one knows how to scumhunt and they are informed. Also, lurkers are often given a pass in beginner games because people aren't confident enough to push them.

I see your point on making the game "interesting" for newbies, but newbies are not going to think "this game didn't have enough PR to be fun for me." On top of that, why add more swing to a mafia game where accurate NA is a bigger deal for a newbie game?

[DarknessB]

I see your point on making the game "interesting" for newbies, but newbies are not going to think "this game didn't have enough PR to be fun for me." On top of that, why add more swing to a mafia game where accurate NA is a bigger deal for a newbie game?

Several newbies from the last beginner's game, namely Unknown and PTB, made that exact point, saying they would have preferred more TPRs in their game, which only had two.