Setup Discussion for Starter Game.

[DarknessB]

I see your point on making the game "interesting" for newbies, but newbies are not going to think "this game didn't have enough PR to be fun for me." On top of that, why add more swing to a mafia game where accurate NA is a bigger deal for a newbie game?

Several newbies from the last beginner's game, namely Unknown and PTB, made that exact point, saying they would have preferred more TPRs in their game, which only had two.

[Cryptonic]

Cryptonic, I still think your favourite 7-player setup is a better option. I would not risk skewing the odds of a Town: Mafia win too much in one direction.

If this setup was used, I don't agree with having a Neutral involved for a first game, given that it means the Mafia can also scum-hunt and thus takes away a part of scum-hunting. (the fact that Mafia are informed and Town are not)

Makes the game too swingy for my liking.

I like Quick's setup but I do not think that even the "veterans" on this site know what the optimal strategies for that kind of game are, so giving it to new mod players would be a nightmare.

Guess I might use it for the Vanilla S-FM queue though.

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.

[Quick]

Because both sides are of the same quality. When something has been played that many times, you have such a decent sample that the numbers are accurate regardless of skill level skew of a few hundred games.

This argument could just go back and forth because we are considering different things. I'll just say one more time that just because on some other site somewhere that they have some semblance of balance is not a correlation coefficient for what we can expect here.

[MattZed]

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.

I worry that 3v7 would be a little too scumsided. There's also the matter that I think SJ is aiming more for 7-9 players. Perhaps 2v6 or 2v7?

[DarknessB]

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

[Quick]

Several newbies from the last beginner's game, namely Unknown and PTB, made that exact point, saying they would have preferred more TPRs in their game, which only had two.

Yes, I see your point. Just asking if you are talking about Unknown or Unknown1234 because PTB is not an average player.

I would, however, like to make a suggestion for newbie games which is to have a sort of mentor or coach that can help the newbs along the way during the game.

[MattZed]

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.

[DarknessB]

Yes, I see your point. Just asking if you are talking about Unknown or Unknown1234 because PTB is not an average player.

I would, however, like to make a suggestion for newbie games which is to have a sort of mentor or coach that can help the newbs along the way during the game.

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

[Cryptonic]

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.

[Cryptonic]

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing

[DarknessB]

The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.

Understood -- I would just suggest that our veterans often aren't good at dealing with that WIFOM, much less newcomers, so it might be a little cruel to them in a first game.

[DarknessB]

That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing

Just depends on the mentors in question and how invested they are in helping new players. I was very active as a mentor in the first game and treated it like I was playing the game in terms of how I followed what was going on. I think we have enough overactive players (Calix, etc.) that we could make the mentor system work -- just needs clearer expectations on the role.

[DarknessB]

None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

[Cryptonic]

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.

[DarknessB]

Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.

I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.

[Calix]

I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.

[MattZed]

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: @PowersThatBe , how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?

[Quick]

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

Right, I can see how that would be a problem. Possibly better to get people who are passionate about the game rather than necessarily the best players?

[Calix]

I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.

This is referring to the roles that can change alignment flips.

[Cryptonic]

I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.

It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?

[Calix]

Mafia Wars reference.

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him

[Unknown1234]

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him

Um.

[DarknessB]

We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: @PowersThatBe , how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?

PTB was insanely overactive in that game -- he's not indicative of the average starting player. It's a beginner's game, MZ, not Illuminati. We want them not to be traumatized to the point that they never return. Let them trust the damn graveyard.

[MattZed]

Um.

The Drug Dealer in that S-FM... didn't quite work as it does in usual FMs.

[Calix]

MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.

[DarknessB]

It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?

Oh, the Watermeloann Drug Dealer was different than a normal one. When you got drugged, you couldn't use certain letters and if you did, you got modkilled, lol. Toadette fell into the trap and MZ cheated his way around it with find-replace on every post before submitting it.

[DarknessB]

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him

For everyone's reference -- roleblocked by FB, recruited by Yuki, and the scum didn't attack (WIFOM trolling), so everyone was on my ass d2 thinking I was the attacking scum member. Gotta love dying because of a unfortunate convergence of three different night actions.

[Quick]

After thinking about this while talking it out itt I think the right course of action is to add few, read: few PR that you can't use in the mod and have those be most if not all the PR in the game.

[MattZed]

MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.

It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask @Unknown1234 or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.

[DarknessB]

It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask @Unknown1234 or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.

Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.

[MattZed]

Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.

I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input before assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."

[Calix]

I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input before assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."

I would not say that Tailors or the like are common enough on our site to be a possibility in a beginner's setup.

Given it's already a game about paranoia, adding them in just seems excessive. As stated earlier, the possibility screws too much with Town's ability to trust the information that the Host gives them in the day post.

As Crypt mentioned, Actress/ Drug Dealer can create discussion. However, Tailor just creates chaos.

[Cryptonic]

If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have

[Calix]

If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have

Actress would cover the potentials that 1-use Tailor would do.

Tailoring a Town can be countered with Last Wills.

Having a Tailor suit Mafia seems redundant when you already have Actress. (a self-tailoring Mafia role) Tailor just makes the Mafia stronger because they have more flexibility.

Any positive benefits that Tailor would add to discussion are already covered by Actress.

[Unknown1234]

Not sure all the complicated roles would work, but I think a citizen game could potentially bore the new comers. So I would say having unique roles might be more interesting, the only issue would be balancing the setup

[Yukitaka Oni]

Not sure all the complicated roles would work, but I think a citizen game could potentially bore the new comers. So I would say having unique roles might be more interesting, the only issue would be balancing the setup

Change the name of citizen into another name but the power remain the same

[Unknown1234]

Change the name of citizen into another name but the power remain the same

How about Mayor?

[Quick]

If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have

I don't think that would be TOO bad. I guess it would depend what other/how many other PR were in the game. I mean Taylor with a combination with a few others depending on what they were could be pretty bad.

[Quick]

After thinking about this while talking it out itt I think the right course of action is to add few, read: few PR that you can't use in the mod and have those be most if not all the PR in the game.

To expand on this I don't think a list of 20 PR that could potentially be in the game is not appropriate. Maybe like 2-3 extra.

[Yukitaka Oni]

How about Mayor?

Just like Koopalitic or other game, the name only make the game more exciting. The power of role stay the same

[BananaCucho]

Tailor is the worst role that has been invented and should not exist

But what do I know I'm just a banana

[Cryptonic]

Tailor is the worst role that has been invented and should not exist

But what do I know I'm just a banana

Why

[BananaCucho]

Why

It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.

[Quick]

Actress, Strongman, Sleuth, Drug Dealer, Fabricator, Grave Robber, Lawyer, Mortician, Tailor, Traitor, Ventriloquist, Architect, Armorsmith, Blacksmith, Body Double, Bulletproof, Enchantress, Gunsmith, Journalist, Nurse, Professor, Arms Dealer, Ghost, Magician, Ninja, Student, Soul Thief, Devourer, Electromaniac, Hunter, Joker, Killer Agent, Poisoner, Cult Leader, Acolyte, ect

Triad.

[DarknessB]

It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.

Someone paste this explanation in the next time someone tries to run with a Tailor in a setup.

[Quick]

It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.

You make a good point, however, you must consider that Scum must be about their wits if they want to come up with a plausible role that that player could be. With games with mass claim it could be pretty difficult to say for example tailor a Sheriff as Doc.

[Kovath]

You make a good point, however, you must consider that Scum must be about their wits if they want to come up with a plausible role that that player could be. With games with mass claim it could be pretty difficult to say for example tailor a Sheriff as Doc.

Not especially. All you need to do is tailor a flip as the opposite alignment and some relatively reasonable role in order to scramble the minds of town.

[Quick]

Not especially. All you need to do is tailor a flip as the opposite alignment and some relatively reasonable role in order to scramble the minds of town.

Kinda? But for the latter that can depend on how good the players are in the game. What I am trying to say is that a sloppy Tailor could be disastrous for the scum.

[BananaCucho]

Kinda? But for the latter that can depend on how good the players are in the game. What I am trying to say is that a sloppy Tailor could be disastrous for the scum.

Any sloppy player can be disastrous to their team regardless of the role. The action is most likely discussed by the whole team in a night chat anyway. The role itself is still op regardless of the skill of who holds it

[Quick]

Any sloppy player can be disastrous to their team regardless of the role. The action is most likely discussed by the whole team in a night chat anyway. The role itself is still op regardless of the skill of who holds it

You argue I do not account for any player to be a detriment in this game. I'd argue if that's the case all things being equal, that the setup and to consider ALL the roles in the setup is what you may not be accounting for in your argument. Tailor by itself in the hands of scum is OP, no argument from me there. But to say it can't work in any setup is a bit much. You might as well throw away any negative utility Town role to not be valid. To take this to an extreme, why have PR at all?