Setup Discussion for Starter Game.

[SuperJack]

Hello.

Once again we are starting a new starter game. And I am interested with feedback from the last game. (Both Players, Mentors and Viewers)
Last game used this Matrix6 which some players, for their first game, did not fully grasp how it worked. (This may be related to how well it was explained)
The general summery of how the starter game should be build around is:
- 7 to 9 players
- Simple Power roles
- Mostly Vanilla
- Normal Setup

If no other option is reach it will basically be:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Consort
Mafioso

[DarknessB]

Setup looks good to me. Would be helpful to go over some other rule considerations as well:

1. Last Wills -- Presumably allowed.
2. Posting Requirements -- 5 per day / host's discretion? I would recommend host's discretion to avoid players being able to remain in the game on a technicality even if they are not really participating.
3. Reserves -- We should have at least a couple of reserves lined up in case players choose to / need to be replaced.
4. In-Game Vets -- In the interest of shaking it up and spurring conversation, I would be in favor of say 2 more experienced players in this game, but not super experienced.
5. Mentors -- Can't hurt to allow the new players to have a mentor with whom they can chat with during the game realtime. Sort of like last time, except maybe emphasize that they can use the mentors as much as possible (telling the mentors this too).
6. Day / Night Cycles -- 48/24?

[Unknown1234]

Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game. When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.

Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.

[DarknessB]

My thoughts in blue below:

Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game.
Last time around, a number of players were confused by the matrix. Given this is the first game for many players, the risk of confusing them seems higher than anything else. When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.
7 is too small IMO -- you might very well be looking at 5-2 to start, which would go to 4-2 with a mislynch, 3-2 with a night kill. Don't want a very possible Day 2 LYLO situation for newcomers.

Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.
Again, it's a beginner's game so you'd rather keep it simple and focus on fundamentals of teaching players to scumhunt, etc. We don't want blingy roles in the game because that makes the game more about the TPRs and less about scumhunting. Better players win and lose based on their reads vs. based on night action madness.

[Cryptonic]

5v2 is a fine size for a small game. best for basic imo, 5v2, 72 hr days

[Yukitaka Oni]

I'm a citizen, i know the feel v(o.o(<

[Yukitaka Oni]

I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)

[DarknessB]

I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)

The initial thought had been players with a little bit of experience, but who could benefit from some additional game time -- such as some of our recent newcomers -- Unknown, Mesk, Eggy or some medium experience players who want to practice a little more -- Gyrlander, Funce, AIVION, Mikecall, Secondpassing, etc.

[Cryptonic]

If no other option is reach it will basically be:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Consort
Mafioso

Town would steamroll this

[DarknessB]

Town would steamroll this

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

[SuperJack]

Town would steamroll this

56.8% (44 games) are a town win. (Stealing information from the web)

[SuperJack]

The idea of this thread was if people have any other suggestions for the setup.

And if they dont, I'll stick with that basic one.

[Cryptonic]

56.8% (44 games) are a town win. (Stealing information from the web)

Link me, please.
Every one i've seen is 51:49 for 5v2 (2 less Citizens)

[Cryptonic]

See, look:

https://epicmafia.com/setup/693

[secondpassing]

I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.

[SuperJack]

Link me, please.
Every one i've seen is 51:49 for 5v2 (2 less Citizens)

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

Stolen from Line 2.

Oh, and I'm not argueing that 7 players is bad. I'm just saying that 7v2 isnt town steamroll.

[DarknessB]

I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.

Absolutely not -- strategy is extremely subjective and we should not be endorsing approaches on the role card of all places. We have a Wiki and other sections for practice pointers. Players also have the option of a mentor to get advice on how to play a role. The host should not be attempting to push people into strategies in the game instructions.

[Cryptonic]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

Stolen from Line 2.

Oh, and I'm not argueing that 7 players is bad. I'm just saying that 7v2 isnt town steamroll.

57% is a huge advantage, though. 14% spread

[DarknessB]

57% is a huge advantage, though. 14% spread

Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.

[Cryptonic]

Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.

But newcomers are also not skilled at playing scum, making scum reads easier. I personally think it evens out; def doesn't close a 14 pt spread. but yes, maybe a 5v2 would be hard for town. maybe 6v2 would be decent to try.

[Yukitaka Oni]

/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>

[SuperJack]

But newcomers are also not skilled at playing scum, making scum reads easier. I personally think it evens out; def doesn't close a 14 pt spread. but yes, maybe a 5v2 would be hard for town. maybe 6v2 would be decent to try.

Perhaps. Yes, with Doc he game may not end on night 2.

[Unknown1234]

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.

Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.

[DarknessB]

/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>

Speaking of which, SuperJack, please have a dead chat / observer's chat QT for this game. Don't think there was one last time.

[Cryptonic]

Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.

Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.

Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was

[Unknown1234]

Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was

Last save was swapping detective and sheriff.
Swapping Mafioso instead of consort as well.

I guess that makes sense, just depends how long sheriff stays hidden and who he checks.

[MattZed]

Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

[SuperJack]

Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback

[MattZed]

Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback

I'd agree.

Also BD can't bus self.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Mafia have beguiler? Maybe?

[Unknown1234]

Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over

[MattZed]

The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over

I'm proposing BD as an alternative to Sheriffs or other investigative precisely because it encourages reading people and trying to figure out who to try to run over.

If game ends N1, it's because the town played very well.

[DarknessB]

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

[MattZed]

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

[Cryptonic]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

[Gyrlander]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

HMMM That's a great idea. Maybe the begginers should choose what setup they want to play? (interesting or basic)

[Unknown1234]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

This.

[secondpassing]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

This x3

[powerofdeath]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

Yeah, I remember my first FM, slaol and ika were the hosts of cops and robbers and I remember how very different and unique the roles are, and it got me very hooked.

[SuperJack]

Then I implore someone to bring a game suitable for newbies yet unique and fun.

[MattZed]

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

[Cryptonic]

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

Lmao, not that unique. More Unique roles, Less Unique Mechanics lol

[MattZed]

Lmao, not that unique. More Unique roles, Less Unique Mechanics lol

What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

[Cryptonic]

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Neutral

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Neutral: Amnesiac, Executioner, Jester, Student, Survivor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.

[Cryptonic]

What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

Actress, Strongman, Sleuth, Drug Dealer, Fabricator, Grave Robber, Lawyer, Mortician, Tailor, Traitor, Ventriloquist, Architect, Armorsmith, Blacksmith, Body Double, Bulletproof, Enchantress, Gunsmith, Journalist, Nurse, Professor, Arms Dealer, Ghost, Magician, Ninja, Student, Soul Thief, Devourer, Electromaniac, Hunter, Joker, Killer Agent, Poisoner, Cult Leader, Acolyte, ect

[DarknessB]

Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?

[DarknessB]

This x3

This from the guy who wanted to put a MAYOR in the Beginner's Game. Because clearly, newbie Mayors in games have worked out so well -- FF7 was just a lovely game for the Town...

[DarknessB]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

[DarknessB]

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

Nah, Suicide Still Allowed was better. Or Lynch Fetish.

[Gyrlander]

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

Please.