S-FM 200: Mafia Wars II

[Unknown1234]

Can someone point to me or quote, who and what role the supposed town super powers claimed?

We had Duck claim Beguiler that's it.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

-vote Kovath

Only reason this vote isn't shit is because I understand you.

[Logically Insane]

Eh? Duck's the only person who has claimed so far.

Ok I misread then. I just woke up, I guess I'll sift through. So don't mind my lurking for a bit.

[Sino]

Only reason this vote isn't shit is because I understand you.

Okay, so a shit vote is a vote you don't understand.

How about you try to understand votes instead of making lazy comments ?

[Borderline Crazy Dealers]

Only reason this vote isn't shit is because I understand you.

Does your l33t WIFOM9000 strategy involve impersonating Titus?

Do you not agree with the Kovath train? If so, why?

[Unknown1234]

Does your l33t WIFOM9000 strategy involve impersonating Titus?

Do you not agree with the Kovath train? If so, why?

If there was a Titus impersonation Kovath woulda slipped like 10 billion times already

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Okay, so a shit vote is a vote you don't understand.

How about you try to understand votes instead of making lazy comments ?

1) I have never played with you.

2) your vote isn't going to get any fucking traction when you just vote for someone with no reason given.

3) G4slight is far from the optimal lynch at this point.


In conclusion: Its a shitty vote that goes nowhere and I have no idea what you were thinking making a naked vote.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Does your l33t WIFOM9000 strategy involve impersonating Titus?

Do you not agree with the Kovath train? If so, why?

I don't agree on the Kovath train.. at all. Kovaths last few posts have been solid. I think Unknown is just misguided town.

[Sino]

1) I have never played with you.

2) your vote isn't going to get any fucking traction when you just vote for someone with no reason given.

3) G4slight is far from the optimal lynch at this point.


In conclusion: Its a shitty vote that goes nowhere and I have no idea what you were thinking making a naked vote.

1) So what ?

2) I gave my reason, please read the game

3) I want him to give me his reason for saying what he said, we still have 23+ hours, why are you talking about a lynch ?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Does your l33t WIFOM9000 strategy involve impersonating Titus?

Do you not agree with the Kovath train? If so, why?

No idea wtf this means.

[Kovath]

I'm pushing it because it's the oddest thing you did during the RVS stage part of the game and we (DB and BC also) thought it wasn't something that could be justified even with the explanations provided.

If you're trying to start conversations, then why would you NOT push? Why wait for something else to happen? If that's your best lead at that moment in time, why would you choose NOT to pursue it? This doesn't sound like a townie mindset at all.

Not sure why you mentioned pre-flips either.

Honestly, I cannot really comment on the meta because you are clearly aware of it and can manipulate it as you see fit. It's also very difficult to actually get anything alignment-indicative when you keep bringing up meta, making me think this is a deliberate attempt on your part to explain yourself in further detail.

Yes, I find you to be scummy in general and I never get why people town-read you. (in previous games) This time, my usual suspicions are only being reinforced as opposed to countered.

You are being so lazy with your scum reads. You say you have 'potential reservations' on Unknown? What would those be? I see no progression with the Unknown read which makes it come across as insincere. I don't think you're trying here.

How the hell are Gaslight and Voss similar in your eyes?

Explain your Kenshin read in more depth, please. What makes you doubt he is scum? Why do you suspect it's playstyle?

You only call one of your "No Lynch" suspects townie. Everyone else is "too useful" or "DOESN'T seem like scum". I'm not sure how strong this point is, but your wording of "no lynch" over "town reads" strikes me as unusual as well.

I do not at all like what Kenshin has done this game, but that massive "I'm ignoring you" and the huge troll-face image is similar vibe like I got from SP's "I'm straight-up ignoring these two players) in Music. When I read over this player's post, it feels way too overt to be scum- That's why I'm reading atm as shitty but trying townie. In terms of playstyle disagreement, I am extremely not in tune with the playstyle of the Quick part of Kenshin (see Day 1 Sandbox). I am not using meta comparisons between play in those two games to make alignment judgments, but was pointing out a conditioner for my read in a potential inherent scummy bias I have in making the read I am as I feel it's not useful to town.

Gaslight and Voss are not similar in their reads and playstyle, it was mainly about the first two sentences in my G4slight read which was about not having enough to read town or scum motivation. I would obviously like production to pick up soon from both slots.

My choice of No-Lynch as my term was a very deliberate one, as things I used to consider strong town tells like logic and moving the discussion along, I am much less strong on now. I simply make the distinction that I would prefer not to lynch such an individual on the day, which has the same functional purpose.

I'm looking back through my posts, I thought I had talked a bit about reservations on Unknown... odd, I guess I didn't (maybe I was thinking about Kenshin). Either way, I do think Unknown has been trying this game. I am looking back through his posts (mainly the recent ones, tbh) and can see some town perspective- it is not a town perspective I particularly like, but I acknowledge that it could be there. For example, pushing hard on read justification- if he was scum then it'd be really foolish to keep doing that even after getting answers. I perceive this more as town who isn't seeing rather than scum, as scum would have risk of being pinged or discredited for that kind of behavior. It is a read that is still evolving, though I do not find this possibility of town perspective to outweigh my earlier pings of his play, which is why I am still scumreading him. Shifty is the far stronger one.

As for Duck / Shifty, yeah, I admit I was potentially a bit inconsistent. I reiterate that I just didn't see enough to push it any harder, didn't see any particularly adverse reaction from Duck. My explanation afterwards is for why I didn't look to bring it back up again later.

[Borderline Crazy Dealers]

I don't agree on the Kovath train.. at all. Kovaths last few posts have been solid. I think Unknown is just misguided town.

Give examples of how they have been solid.

What did you make of his reads?

[Sino]

1) I have never played with you.

2) your vote isn't going to get any fucking traction when you just vote for someone with no reason given.

3) G4slight is far from the optimal lynch at this point.


In conclusion: Its a shitty vote that goes nowhere and I have no idea what you were thinking making a naked vote.

Btw, speaking of my vote, so would you always place your vote on a wagon ?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

1) So what ?

2) I gave my reason, please read the game

3) I want him to give me his reason for saying what he said, we still have 23+ hours, why are you talking about a lynch ?

I will look for your case on G4, but I am going off of what G4 has posted and his posts are not shit. You can ask someone what they were talking about without placing a vote, right? IMO, you vote who you want to lynch if it is a serious vote.

[Unknown1234]

@Kovath why have you randomly flipped your opinion on me since you thought you had stuff on me that you didn't?

[Logically Insane]

@God Emperor Trudeau , I am currently town reading your slot for Eggys wall post (or one of them), could you please return the favor?

You wanted GET to just town read you?

[Unknown1234]

You wanted GET to just town read you?

OMG

[Sino]

I will look for your case on G4, but I am going off of what G4 has posted and his posts are not shit. You can ask someone what they were talking about without placing a vote, right? IMO, you vote who you want to lynch if it is a serious vote.

Right, you can, but votes are also meant to apply pressure, not only to lynch IMO

[Kovath]

@Kovath why have you randomly flipped your opinion on me since you thought you had stuff on me that you didn't?

When did I flip my opinion on you?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Give examples of how they have been solid.

What did you make of his reads?

Whether I agreed with his reads or not is of no consequence as you have stated that just because you don't agree with the reads someone gives doesn't mean I can't see the thought process behind them. Kovath very clearly has been very upfront about their thought process the entire game. Could he be faking it? I suppose, but there are way more efficient ways to play scum.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Right, you can, but votes are also meant to apply pressure, not only to lynch IMO

Right, I agree, but a naked vote adds exactly 0 pressure.

[Borderline Crazy Dealers]

I do not at all like what Kenshin has done this game, but that massive "I'm ignoring you" and the huge troll-face image is similar vibe like I got from SP's "I'm straight-up ignoring these two players) in Music. When I read over this player's post, it feels way too overt to be scum- That's why I'm reading atm as shitty but trying townie. In terms of playstyle disagreement, I am extremely not in tune with the playstyle of the Quick part of Kenshin (see Day 1 Sandbox). I am not using meta comparisons between play in those two games to make alignment judgments, but was pointing out a conditioner for my read in a potential inherent scummy bias I have in making the read I am as I feel it's not useful to town.

Gaslight and Voss are not similar in their reads and playstyle, it was mainly about the first two sentences in my G4slight read which was about not having enough to read town or scum motivation. I would obviously like production to pick up soon from both slots.

My choice of No-Lynch as my term was a very deliberate one, as things I used to consider strong town tells like logic and moving the discussion along, I am much less strong on now. I simply make the distinction that I would prefer not to lynch such an individual on the day, which has the same functional purpose.

I'm looking back through my posts, I thought I had talked a bit about reservations on Unknown... odd, I guess I didn't (maybe I was thinking about Kenshin). Either way, I do think Unknown has been trying this game. I am looking back through his posts (mainly the recent ones, tbh) and can see some town perspective- it is not a town perspective I particularly like, but I acknowledge that it could be there. For example, pushing hard on read justification- if he was scum then it'd be really foolish to keep doing that even after getting answers. I perceive this more as town who isn't seeing rather than scum, as scum would have risk of being pinged or discredited for that kind of behavior. It is a read that is still evolving, though I do not find this possibility of town perspective to outweigh my earlier pings of his play, which is why I am still scumreading him. Shifty is the far stronger one.

As for Duck / Shifty, yeah, I admit I was potentially a bit inconsistent. I reiterate that I just didn't see enough to push it any harder, didn't see any particularly adverse reaction from Duck. My explanation afterwards is for why I didn't look to bring it back up again later.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're using meta. lol

Anything in particular that makes you think Quick ISN'T just daring scum?

I'm of the opinion that you can get a read from a few posts. Now that you have the bigger picture with everyone having posted (and most having voted), you can go through and place them.

I gathered it was deliberate. Does that apply to your unwillingness to say that many players are town? (in a game with 10 of them)

Mate, the problem is that you don't EXPLAIN anything like, ever. Not until someone holds your hand and prods you for such contributions. This is why I am struggling to take you seriously - you are clearly capable of high-level contributions yet you fail to provide them until your neck is on the line.

Why do you conflate high effort with a townie alignment? Given that scum are perfectly capable of scum-hunting in this setup and would put in effort for that reason, this is an extremely flawed metric for reading players.

Your description of Unknown can also apply to you, can it not? Much like I am with you, you are using his earlier posts to explain why you are scum-reading him now. What makes these two situations different in your eyes.

I like how you actually admit that you are inconsistent.

[G4slight]

There is a difference between disagreeing and defending. Did I once say that Shifty wasn't evil? No. I said I didn't disagree with THAT logic, that doesn't mean i disagree with the overall opinion on Shifty

Saying that some action is not an action that scum would perform implies that the individual in question is not scum.

I also said that it's possible that they would, just unlikely for them to. Anyone could do anything at any point of the game, you have to look at it through both perspectives

I think Kovath's explanation here sums it up for me, which leads me to believe Unknown deflecting for Shifty means he knows their alignment, also that last post by unknown just seems really forced and convoluted. So basically "anyone can do anything at any time and nothing is alignment indicative. I know thats a bit of hyperbole, but you can see how dangerous of a door that is to leave open.

Btw, we have yet to hear from Rurouni Kenshin and Fatalis.

I also don't like how G4slight has posted once and vanished, what's the point of posting in that case ?

I was busy, said I was going to be out, and said so.

Disclaimer: these reads might as well be null - I'm not very good at reading players, especially during day 1.

Leaning town:
Logically Insane
Borderline Crazy Dealers
Sino

Null:
Everyone else -inactives

Leaning scum:
SexyDuck
God Emperor Trudeau

Thanks for the well thought information

22 pages really sucks, anybody can just give me summary instead

You gotta read and develop your own opinions. If you use other people's summary you can easily back out of it later.

Why not.

Leaning town:
Logically Insane
Provides a reasonable amount of high quality posts, brings up new points and angles, his play seems genuine so town lean for now.

Borderline Crazy Dealers
Most active player, few shitposts, adds alot to discussion which is commendable. Probably my strongest town read considering activity, and all around post quality.

Sino
Joins the game late, start posting questions, actively scumhunts, refrains from shitposting, pro-town play overall.

Null:
Everyone else -inactives

Leaning scum:
SexyDuck
Shitposter, so called "leads" are basically nothing, in my eyes try-harding to get town cred with no real substance.

God Emperor Trudeau
Seems like he wants to give the impression that he's active and wants to pro-town play, although he adds nothing to the discussion. Doesn't seem genuine.


Null: everyone else (excluding inactives) for clarification.

This is better, however I don't have duck as scum for the spam, I still have that slot at null. Sino, I'm leaning scum on as the questions seem kinda forced, and an easy way to hide as scum.

-vote logically insane

I am a beguiler. I am at no risk for dieing or being moled tonight by claiming unless I hide in the wrong house.

I think I have a good idea who the other regular TPR is.

-DucK

Uhh okay, everyone else has already excoriated you for this so I'll refrain, but this is probably the most anti-town play you could of made with if this is true.

rationale is all 3 votes on me are my mafia reads, and they are reading a TPR as mafia, and I do not agree with their other scum reads. I am fine claiming since unless we no lynch I can not be directly targeted and killed unless they guess which house I go to.

If the godfather and consigliere out we have three confirmed? towns and can narrow down a lynch that is most likely successful.

-DucK

So basically you've solved the game? How would anyone be able to pick out you being a TPR based on your post quality and content up to this point? It seems super egotistical and gotcha-y this line of thinking isn't very helpful if you are just going to tunnel based on that fact. Also asking for the GF and consign to reveal is super reckless.

I claimed because all 3 of my mafia reads are voting me and I cant be punished at night for it.

Yeah they can narrow down our confirmed roles by 1 slot, but if it means moving town in a better direction, I think it is more important to get a HIT day 1 then it is to have a higher chance of our confirmed roles not die at night.

-DucK

Your in no way confirmed, since the possibilities of tailors etc. However I do prefer to err in caution, so unless something develops from pages 31 on I won't be voting you.

OK, I got to page 7 (20ppp) and I have decided that since I have 3 games to catch up in I will not prolly be catching up in any of them.

So far, what I read is that kovath is town for pretty much no reason.

For that reason:

-vote Kovath

Seems solid enough

Going to update my opinion on Kovath now:

Overall feeling, i feel like Kovath has good judgement, but sometimes lacks in the explanation.



When your looking into someone and seeing why they would do something as scum, it is also important to look at why they would this as town. I have always defended people (QT is an exception) it is normally how i play. If i town read someone, or if i feel like an opinion isn't directed in the right place, i am going to ask. The fact Sino and Kovath decided to group up and say that "he is defending people, he must be scum" is not something i can agree with. You also say "for his behaviour this game that i scum read him" and i know what your going to say if i ask you to specify: "I already said my opinion". I feel like your opinion is just lacking sometimes, and really needs to be commented on more. About the Shifty thing, i cannot see a good reason to relate this situation to Sandbox, it does not have any connection other then a "potential slip" made by Shifty.



Let me say something here. Which do you think is more scummy, staying to one opinion all game? Or switching your opinion to what suits you. I am not going to keep the same opinion all game, that is ridiculous. I feel like you have an idea in your head that i am always going to be scummy every single game. So @Kovath , let me ask you this. Is there a comparison to how i played in QT and how i played here? If no, how have i played differently? if Yes, why would you think that i am scum this game, even though you also scum read me last game and you thought i was town. When i am town, it is VERY obvious because i am very big on opinions and mine changes a lot.



This is a good town perspective, and i am glad that you commented here. Duck is very reckless, and i have seen him on my team as both scum and as town. How he plays is very different as town then as scum. When he is scum, he usually has one idea and sticks with it. When he is town he usually floats around and changes his mind a ton. I think that him claiming is very similar to his play in QT, mostly reckless at times. In my opinion, Scum Duck would not claim a role so soon because it really leaves him into a dead end if caught lying otherwise.



Once again, it just feels like your mind is set on me. I think that a normal town would be open to changing an opinion on his reads, but you seem set on me. (Correct me if i'm wrong) I also do not agree with my shit posts, but i have said this enough and i don't want to cause a fight.

I wasn't aware of your "defending meta" however I'm still not a fan. I do like the perceived tone I got from reading this, you seemed like a townie explaining your case, versus squirming.

One thing i don't like about this slot is that he makes assumptions based on what # the player was before beginning the game. Certainly this is flawed, it is just the order of who joined into the game. The vote however is not a good sign. IN reality, leaving a policy vote and leaving for a heavy period of time is not something that can be considered pro-town. I know this is G4's only post, so i figured i would comment on it. Not seeing it happening, but if Sino ended up getting voted this would be a HUGE problem.

That is it for G4

You've played with me before and I've stated why I vote for #11 it's my traditional start of game vote.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

You wanted GET to just town read you?

Thank God someone questioned me on this.

[Borderline Crazy Dealers]

Whether I agreed with his reads or not is of no consequence as you have stated that just because you don't agree with the reads someone gives doesn't mean I can't see the thought process behind them. Kovath very clearly has been very upfront about their thought process the entire game. Could he be faking it? I suppose, but there are way more efficient ways to play scum.

I wasn't talking about wherever you agreed with them. I found them sloppy and I was wondering if you thought the same.

I cannot bring myself to agree with the highlighted part.

[Sino]

Sino, I'm leaning scum on as the questions seem kinda forced, and an easy way to hide as scum.

Again, HOW are my questions forced ?

[Sino]

Thank God someone questioned me on this.

I'm pretty sure someone else questioned that before

[Unknown1234]

Kovath just flipped me from scum to town and then said he didn't. Am I reading this wrong?

[Borderline Crazy Dealers]

Kovath just flipped me from scum to town and then said he didn't. Am I reading this wrong?

Quote the relevant parts so that we can see where you're coming from.

[G4slight]

This, i want G4 to answer this question

I think your questions are easy places to hide and act like you are actually doing something. I don't think they are effectual and your lack of insightful followup makes them feel hollow. I'm sorry if I missed a lot of things. I'm rushing to catch up as soon as possible. I'll be out for a couple hours and then will continue.

[Unknown1234]

I do not at all like what Kenshin has done this game, but that massive "I'm ignoring you" and the huge troll-face image is similar vibe like I got from SP's "I'm straight-up ignoring these two players) in Music. When I read over this player's post, it feels way too overt to be scum- That's why I'm reading atm as shitty but trying townie. In terms of playstyle disagreement, I am extremely not in tune with the playstyle of the Quick part of Kenshin (see Day 1 Sandbox). I am not using meta comparisons between play in those two games to make alignment judgments, but was pointing out a conditioner for my read in a potential inherent scummy bias I have in making the read I am as I feel it's not useful to town.

Gaslight and Voss are not similar in their reads and playstyle, it was mainly about the first two sentences in my G4slight read which was about not having enough to read town or scum motivation. I would obviously like production to pick up soon from both slots.

My choice of No-Lynch as my term was a very deliberate one, as things I used to consider strong town tells like logic and moving the discussion along, I am much less strong on now. I simply make the distinction that I would prefer not to lynch such an individual on the day, which has the same functional purpose.

I'm looking back through my posts, I thought I had talked a bit about reservations on Unknown... odd, I guess I didn't (maybe I was thinking about Kenshin). Either way, I do think Unknown has been trying this game. I am looking back through his posts (mainly the recent ones, tbh) and can see some town perspective- it is not a town perspective I particularly like, but I acknowledge that it could be there. For example, pushing hard on read justification- if he was scum then it'd be really foolish to keep doing that even after getting answers. I perceive this more as town who isn't seeing rather than scum, as scum would have risk of being pinged or discredited for that kind of behavior. It is a read that is still evolving, though I do not find this possibility of town perspective to outweigh my earlier pings of his play, which is why I am still scumreading him. Shifty is the far stronger one.

As for Duck / Shifty, yeah, I admit I was potentially a bit inconsistent. I reiterate that I just didn't see enough to push it any harder, didn't see any particularly adverse reaction from Duck. My explanation afterwards is for why I didn't look to bring it back up again later.

The entire 4th block. Sorry I quoted entire thing I'm on my phone.

[G4slight]

Again, HOW are my questions forced ?

They don't seem to help further the game at this stage imo. They also seem like an easy place for scum to hide behind

[Logically Insane]

Thank God someone questioned me on this.

Well?

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I'm pretty sure someone else questioned that before

You are correct. I'm glad you picked up on that. I am looking for consistency and LI passes the test. Your observation is noted and given some other things you have said, I'm willing to give both of you a town read.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Well?

That is the point.

[Unknown1234]

They don't seem to help further the game at this stage imo. They also seem like an easy place for scum to hide behind

I agree. Your questions are so general and doesn't further conversation such as: "how do you feel about me" still feels like it's a way you can get ways to make you look more town.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

They don't seem to help further the game at this stage imo. They also seem like an easy place for scum to hide behind

Unknow is just like this as Town in my experience. I think Unknown would have a pretty terrible scum game because their meta would be so much different.

[Sino]

I think your questions are easy places to hide and act like you are actually doing something. I don't think they are effectual and your lack of insightful followup makes them feel hollow. I'm sorry if I missed a lot of things. I'm rushing to catch up as soon as possible. I'll be out for a couple hours and then will continue.

And do you really think i wouldn't ask them if you didn'tvote me during RVS ?

[Borderline Crazy Dealers]

I agree. Your questions are so general and doesn't further conversation such as: "how do you feel about me" still feels like it's a way you can get ways to make you look more town.

Look at World of Music.

His questions were generic and vague as well, were they not?

[Unknown1234]

Look at World of Music.

His questions were generic and vague as well, were they not?

Mm, fair point. I'm not reading him scum, but it certainly doesn't help him. That's what got him killed in WOM

[Logically Insane]

Look at World of Music.

His questions were generic and vague as well, were they not?

What is your read list currently?

[Logically Insane]

Mm, fair point. I'm not reading him scum, but it certainly doesn't help him. That's what got him killed in WOM

what is your read list currently.

[Logically Insane]

And do you really think i wouldn't ask them if you didn'tvote me during RVS ?

What currently do you have as scum/town reads?

[Logically Insane]

Unknow is just like this as Town in my experience. I think Unknown would have a pretty terrible scum game because their meta would be so much different.

Ok if some of us passed the test, who else are you town reading? Who are you scum reading? Why?

[Sino]

Mm, fair point. I'm not reading him scum, but it certainly doesn't help him. That's what got him killed in WOM

Well, as long as i don't get lynched halfway through the day again....

[SexyDucK]

PTB RETIRED FROM STAFF WE ARE ALL SAVED HORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYY

drinks on the duckinator lets celebrate. I was going to sodoku him, but now I dont yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Unknown1234]

what is your read list currently.

My reads list, unless prepared, is usually forced. But here is my opinion that could change:

Town:
BCD
Logically
Duck
Rurounai

Null:
Sino
Voss
POD
G4

Scum:
Kovath
Shifty
GET

[Borderline Crazy Dealers]

What is your read list currently?

Town: Gaslight, Logically Insane, Fatalis
Town lean: Duck, Voss, Sino, Unknown, POD
Scum lean: Kenshin, GET
Scum: Kovath, Shifty

This is not in any particular order.

[Unknown1234]

Add Fatalis to null.

[Logically Insane]

PTB RETIRED FROM STAFF WE ARE ALL SAVED HORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYY

drinks on the duckinator lets celebrate. I was going to sodoku him, but now I dont yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Reads list?