Several Suggestions

[Aion]

1. Vigilant: Change so, that he starts defensive. When a killer comes to him at night, he can shoo the attacker away, but loses a bullet charge (per attacker). No one will die. In the first night, he can only be in this mode. Then, from second night on, he can choose to switch to offensive mode and go kill like normal, but cannot switch to defensive mode anymore.
I think, this could at least reduce the problem of rampant vigilants randomly killing the sole sheriff in first night, and make the role a bit more intelligent and interesting.
Adding to this, maybe vests for citizens and survivors could be always active and only used up when attacked (with a bit more charges), so vigilants are not just the citizens with an option to switch vest for arms.

2. Escort: He works exactly like the mafia consort, but hasn't the advantage of knowing his faction members from start. Following this, townies in general have to work more for finding out the roles of the players, but can't just give out their clues as they will likely become a target. The problem then is, that randomly blocking could hit a killer, which means 1 less kill, but as likely get a doctor or bodyguard, which can mean 1 more kill, but the escort doesnt know what happened because of his doing. If the game went on, he can give a possible clue by blocking someone, maybe resulting in 1 less kill this night. But just having one less kill can have many causes, like vests, doctors, immunities, waiting killers and even additional blocks. Mostly, escorts just add to more cluelessness, and can be easily misused by mafia to get a townie lynched. In EU games at least, escorts are disliked, not as much as citizens, but still there are players in every other game leaving when they get this role.
I think giving the escort and consort a target information, which is is more useful for towns side, could even out the disadvantage. My suggestion would be giving the information, which player the escorts / consorts target wanted to visit this night.

3. Arsonist: I don't really know how successfull arsonists are in general, but in my opinion they could need a slight buff. My suggestion would be giving the arsonist a 1 charge direct kill ability like vigilant, so he can evade a critical situation for one time.
At using this ability he does neither douze or incinerate douzed targets at this night.

4. Godfather/Mafioso: A mafioso is powerless, when the godfather can kill without mafia. A godfather is powerless, when he can't kill without mafia and there isn't any mafioso. To give mafiosos a bit more power to their role, my suggestion would be:
- Give mafiosos the bodyguard function, which is locked with the godfather as the target
- Remove godfather invulnerability and mafioso killing ability
- Mafiosos replace the godfather first, then consiglieres, then the other mafia roles
- Every mafia faction has a godfather as default

5. Serial killer: Make them retreat from bodyguards and defending mafiosos to avoid death, as they only have knives and are more cautious as a 1 member faction

[wightsnow]

1. really, not how vigil, citi, or survivor should work. If the vigil gets targeted early, and he says something, 1 killing power might target him to make him waste bullets before he can shoot. Citizen and survivor are supposed to choose when they're immune or there's no gamble. Could you imagine a survivor with 4 vests not having to choose when to use them. The only time he wouldn't win is when he gets lynched or burned.

2. So it's either invest with roleblock or sheriff with roleblock. That's pretty overpowered.

3. Meh, he can kill in batches and people don't always know there is an arsonist to begin with since he doesn't kill early. In a lot of ways, he's stronger than sk.

4. Not everything is a power role, that is a good thing. The body guard function would work against the mafia for a number of reasons. If someone targeted the GF, rather than being immune and not dying, the mafia lose 1 member (not something they can generally afford, which is why the Body Guard is so strong). Also, if the person attacking was trying to help town and had any experience, would just state in their last will who they are attacking, making it so the mafia lose both the mafioso and the GF. 2 for 1 is not very balanced for the mafia.

5. You're telling me the guy who wants to kill everyone is cautious? If you want something like that, enable the sk to be immune at night. It can suck as SK to hit a body guard, but it can also suck to be investigated the first day as mafia or evil neutrals. There's a lot of random things that can happen to all roles every night. Just part of the game.

[Aion]

1. Well in your example then, the vigilant did prevent a random kill, which is in most cases in favor of town, and so useful. The basic idea is just locking the vigilants killing power for the first night, so i came to this mode idea.
Citizen: Gambling for the power to prevent a townie kill for one time, waste or dieing without having done anything useful isn't a role power many people are crazy about. I think a lasting vest would make at least make the citizen a less frustrating role.

2. I nowhere can see, where my suggestion would make the escort info as powerful as the sheriffs oder investigators info. Can you give me an example?

3. To kill several people, the arsonist always needs more time than the other killing roles. He doesn't know which roles he douzed. The only advantage he has over sk is ignoring invulerabilites. I don't see him stronger than sk.

4. Powerless roles aren't a good thing, especially not in the smaller factions. Same would be, if any mafia member is targeted, only he would die with the attacker alive. My suggestion would make the mafia slightly more vulnerable, but also gives them the power to kill an attacker at night (except sk with next suggestion). In your 2. example, which would only fit for vigilant, he needs a clue for who is the godfather, write a last will and have a spare bullet left. This could be problematic, but is in my opinion an uncommon situation.
-> Additional suggestion: Only give sheriffs and investigators the last will function and automate it to include all previous collected infos. These can be partially voided, so for example the knife users aren't given out to the mafia.

5. Don't bullshit me. Yes, the guy who wants to kill everyone all alone to win the game, must be the most cautious of all. Immunity at night doesn't save him from bodyguards (and mafiosos in above suggestion).

[wightsnow]

1. Yea, but it destroys the meta of vigil. He blocked a kill (which isn't vigils role) and he lost one of his potential kills (which diminishes his main role). People need to learn to play smarter, it's little different than most roles using their powers really poorly. It makes citizen a mindless role, and survivor completely mindless afk mode. Citizens would just flock to whoever claims sheriff during the day and just be there to soak shots at night, basically making the mafia take 50% longer to kill town. Makes investigator and sheriff overpowered because they have ridiculous time to investigate before feeling pressured to reveal.

Also, having the vests on makes the vigil much less worried about randomly shooting, because if it wasn't mafia, they might not die anyways (especially with your suggested change to mafioso).

2. If escort got information, she would get information about a person's role like the sheriff or investigator and on top of that would be able to role block. Turning them into super sheriffs and investigators.

3. I've already listed what advantages the arsonist has over sk; if you don't feel like addressing them, not my loss.

4. So basically you want to completely change out almost all the roles work, so that mafiosos will feel slightly more useful. No, that's a terrible idea. Only allowing sheriff or investigator to have last will is also really, really bad. Also, most sk's help the town with last will saying who GF is if they die.

The mafioso has a niche already. It's to allow the mafia to kill without GF or without GF having the option to kill without mafioso or to weak the mafia a little when player numbers are low.

5. Actually, immunity at night can. You can turn off the option of body guard going through immunity.

[Aion]

;D

Vigilant: When he doesn't block the kill (which in my suggestion only works for himself), he loses the rest of his potential kills anyway, as he's dead.

Citizen: Isn't your example about what citizens are doing already? My suggestion would give them the chance to at least always fulfil this function, as it is pretty much their sole role power.

Survivor: Hell, then just 2 vests. It is a mindless afk role anyway.

Escort: Did you read my suggestion at all? It only gives him the info who his target wanted to visit this night (like coroner on corpses), if the escort didn't block him to do so. It can also be another type of info, the escort just needs something to not stay the cluelessness in person.

Arsonist: I did. Killing in batches is slower then direct killing and he doesn't know which roles are marked for death. The sk is faster and knows the roles then instantly. And he can also pause to kill if needed. Do you mean that arsonist is better when randomed?

Godfather/Mafioso: I don't know how you come on completely changing. My suggestion is replacing the godfather invulnerability with the mafiosos bodyguard function, and of course it then needs some changes to make it round.
And as i wrote in starting post, mafiosos are just passive until the godfather is lynched. If the mafioso then becomes the godfather, he gets the killing power he would have without my suggestion.

Last will: That's really news to me, never crossed an sk helping the town in this way. I still think this is a valid suggestion, as only the investigating roles are using this function meaningful and those of other roles are pretty much only spam.

Serial Killer: Nice to know, thanks. This makes my suggestion then obsolete.


Comments and ideas of additional forum posters available?

[wightsnow]

Vigil: It's not his role to block a kill. His role is to be a killer for the town. The town already has enough kill blockers.

Citizen: You don't understand what I meant. That would make it so not only did the mafia take a night to not kill a power role, but also that they didn't even low the number of votes the town gets. It makes it so sheriffs and investigators would have time to investigate practically everyone. Completely unfair for Mafia.

Survivor: If you're playing it mindless afk mode now, the town should be lynching you because you could be GF pretending to be survivor.

Escort: I misread it. It's not as powerful as I thought, but if the town starts revealing roles and there's a couple docs or body guards, this info would destroy the mafia even faster. Probably unbalanced in higher level play.

Arsonist: If you look at the best and worst case scenarios for sk and arsonist, they are identical except the arsonist gets 1 less kill. Given that the in between area is worse for arsonist. Killing in batches is technically slower, but much stronger. I fear a mafia that could kill in batches. Also, arsonist attacks can ignore immunity and healing. Yes, I think arsonist is much stronger than sk if randomed.

Godfather/Mafioso: The body guard function is terrible for mafia. It could lead to 2 getting killed instead of the GF maybe just claiming he survived because he's survivor. If the mafioso because GF, then he would also become immune to detection, depending on settings. If not, it basically sounds like you're nerfing the GF into being a mafioso, then making all mafiosos bodyguards. Bodyguard is a bad role for mafia.

Last will: This would make it so escort wouldn't be able to tell who they blocked, bus driver couldn't tell who they switched, doc couldn't tell who they healed, body guard couldn't tell who they protected........... All of that is important information for the town, not to mention most town also put things like who they think is mafia based on how the game is going. It sounds like you're saying everyone is far too stupid to know what's going on unless they're an investigating role.

[Lysergic]

Last will: That's really news to me, never crossed an sk helping the town in this way. I still think this is a valid suggestion, as only the investigating roles are using this function meaningful and those of other roles are pretty much only spam.

So far, everything you've suggested in this thread shows VERY little understanding for how many of the roles are SUPPOSED to work. You're basically saying that EVERY role that has ANY weakness should be changed so that ALL roles are UBER. This ruins the game. However, the Last Will comment shows a PARTICULARLY large lack of understanding.

Examples of last wills that are MEANINGFUL, that come from NON-INVESTIGATIVE roles, and that HAVE TO BE TYPED MANUALLY by the player:

Spy: "Mafia Night 3: 'hey oj, kill jim' 'blue is sheriff' 'frame bobby, and kill sheriff' 'invest is teal, and is checking Joe Schmoe - frame him instead' 'town fails so hard lololol' "

Escort: "Blocking Jimmy Bob tonight, 2nd time - only Mafia killed yesterday. If only 1 person dies, Jimmy Bob is Serial Killer."

Vigilante: "Tried to kill Jimmy Bob twice; immune both times. Jimmy Bob is Godfather"

Bus Driver: "Switching Blarg with Blig. Sheriff, if you check Blarg and he is Mafia, it is actually Blig."

Mason: "Susan is the other Mason - do not lynch her."

Serial Killer: "Mafia probs killed me; I attacked Joe, and he didn't die. Probably Godfather. Have fun, town."

Witch: "Controlled Joe, aimed at orange Day 1; orange was silenced. Joe is Blackmailer."

But yeah, Last Wills are TOTALLY useless if they don't come directly from Sheriff or Investigator. We should automate everything and disable chat while we're at it, so that none of those other pathetic roles interfere with the useful power roles.

[Zack]

Ignoring everything else here, the automatic vest for Survivor and Citizen actually makes sense in my opinion. Except, if such a thing is implemented, then Survivor should have no more than 2 vests max, with 1 being the default option. Citizen can have only 1, no more - and will not retain the vest if he turns into a Mason (see upcoming Mason Leader).

[Aion]

Vigilant: He doesn't lose his role as the town killer (how ironic). It's just delayed as a possible solution for the problem of random killing townies in first nights, which happens often. And the blocking part only works for himself with bullet charges until he choses to get offensive.

Citizen: No need to exaggerate. I also read that the power of the citizen lies in votes, which all roles have. The improved vest would at least retain him this power for longer time. He still will be a not so much liked role.

Escort: Hm, i don't understand your example clearly. Can you work out the details a bit, please?

Arsonist: Well, the role's power then lies in the eyes / hands of the beholder. I myself can't make out much of the arsonist and have never seen an arsonist win either. (Coming night immunity could change this though)

Godfather/Mafioso: Ok, convinced with bodyguard being harmful for mafia, though your example is rather specific to a vigilant, who would always have to write in last will who he's going to shoot.
Mafioso still needs something to do while the godfather is killing, in my opinion.

So far, everything you've suggested in this thread shows VERY little understanding for how many of the roles are SUPPOSED to work. You're basically saying that EVERY role that has ANY weakness should be changed so that ALL roles are UBER. This ruins the game. However, the Last Will comment shows a PARTICULARLY large lack of understanding.

OMGTROLLOLOL one SUGGESTION SHITTIER than the OTHER. Because of YOU, it's ALREADY RAINING SHI.. Ok, serious again.

Maybe i used words like useless / powerless too often and meant it more like that some roles need a bigger amount of skill than others to help their faction, sometimes much bigger.
Well then, you both convinced me off my last will suggestion. Though your last will examples are very rare to see (even spy example, as always at least one mafia player points out the no name rule and try to trick him), they are indeed welcome to town.

[wightsnow]

Vigil: It diminishes his role as killer in favor of blocking kills. That's not the point of the vigilante.

Citizen: I'm not exaggerating, that makes it so either the mafia gets really lucky and doesn't hit a town being healed or that a vest, or they get screwed for the first few nights.

Escort: The escort can block people, see that they weren't visiting anyone so therefore weren't mafia. They can share that info with the town and give the sheriff and investigator a more directed search.

Arsonist: I have seen the arsonist win, and many times of it coming down to the arsonist being a coinflip at the end.

Mafioso: Not really, the niche for mafioso is a role that is weaker so you can balance the game with fewer people playing, or give the bodyguard something to do if GF is immune and body guard doesn't have immunity piercing.

Last will: If you don't see that commonly with last will, you have been playing with exclusively newb pubs.

[Clawtrocity]

Vigilante - Power role
Escort - Could get lucky on first block and win the game. Most powerful role in the game.
Arsonist - Turn off Sheriff detect and turn on kill through immunities and heals and he's golden.
GF with Double mafioso is the only thing that stops escort from being the single most OP role in the game. I actually like playing mafia with 3 mafioso. It's a lot more dangerous, but that's the fun in mafia. As long as town isn't decked then usually it's not too bad. Mafioso is there to be the most basic mafia just like citizen is there to be the most basic town role. Buffing the Mafioso would mean we would have to give citizens more vests or make citizens bodyguards for sheriffs automattically. It's not worth the trouble.

Dark is constantly updating the game and releasing new roles to both factions and even adding more neutrals. The game will balance itself out more and more. This game is like an infant let it grow before you start telling it that it's a disappointment for not going to become a surgeon or cause it isn't going to Harvard.

[Lysergic]

OMGTROLLOLOL one SUGGESTION SHITTIER than the OTHER. Because of YOU, it's ALREADY RAINING SHI.. Ok, serious again.

Maybe i used words like useless / powerless too often and meant it more like that some roles need a bigger amount of skill than others to help their faction, sometimes much bigger.
Well then, you both convinced me off my last will suggestion. Though your last will examples are very rare to see (even spy example, as always at least one mafia player points out the no name rule and try to trick him), they are indeed welcome to town.

If you seriously think I'm "trolling" by saying that these are bad suggestions that would overpower the roles in question, I really have nothing more to say in this topic.

And if you REALLY haven't seen those as examples of Last Wills, then you truly are playing with all noobs. Start using the Mafia channel for matchmaking.

LAST NIGHT I was playing as Godfather. The first night of the game, the Witch controlled me and killed himself by accident, but left a last will saying who he was controlling. Instant giveaway for who the Godfather is, all thanks to Last Will. Play with better players and you will see how good EVERY ROLE can be.

[Goonswarm]

1. Vigilant: Change so, that he starts defensive. When a killer comes to him at night, he can shoo the attacker away, but loses a bullet charge (per attacker). No one will die. In the first night, he can only be in this mode. Then, from second night on, he can choose to switch to offensive mode and go kill like normal, but cannot switch to defensive mode anymore.
I think, this could at least reduce the problem of rampant vigilants randomly killing the sole sheriff in first night, and make the role a bit more intelligent and interesting.
Adding to this, maybe vests for citizens and survivors could be always active and only used up when attacked (with a bit more charges), so vigilants are not just the citizens with an option to switch vest for arms.

2. Escort: He works exactly like the mafia consort, but hasn't the advantage of knowing his faction members from start. Following this, townies in general have to work more for finding out the roles of the players, but can't just give out their clues as they will likely become a target. The problem then is, that randomly blocking could hit a killer, which means 1 less kill, but as likely get a doctor or bodyguard, which can mean 1 more kill, but the escort doesnt know what happened because of his doing. If the game went on, he can give a possible clue by blocking someone, maybe resulting in 1 less kill this night. But just having one less kill can have many causes, like vests, doctors, immunities, waiting killers and even additional blocks. Mostly, escorts just add to more cluelessness, and can be easily misused by mafia to get a townie lynched. In EU games at least, escorts are disliked, not as much as citizens, but still there are players in every other game leaving when they get this role.
I think giving the escort and consort a target information, which is is more useful for towns side, could even out the disadvantage. My suggestion would be giving the information, which player the escorts / consorts target wanted to visit this night.

3. Arsonist: I don't really know how successfull arsonists are in general, but in my opinion they could need a slight buff. My suggestion would be giving the arsonist a 1 charge direct kill ability like vigilant, so he can evade a critical situation for one time.
At using this ability he does neither douze or incinerate douzed targets at this night.

4. Godfather/Mafioso: A mafioso is powerless, when the godfather can kill without mafia. A godfather is powerless, when he can't kill without mafia and there isn't any mafioso. To give mafiosos a bit more power to their role, my suggestion would be:
- Give mafiosos the bodyguard function, which is locked with the godfather as the target
- Remove godfather invulnerability and mafioso killing ability
- Mafiosos replace the godfather first, then consiglieres, then the other mafia roles
- Every mafia faction has a godfather as default

5. Serial killer: Make them retreat from bodyguards and defending mafiosos to avoid death, as they only have knives and are more cautious as a 1 member faction

1. Outstanding Idea
2. Too complicated, imo escort is fine as is with SK kill RB option on. Forces escorts to think before blocking.
3. Arson has his place, when people start getting used to the BD role he will be great. I make sheriffs unable to detect arson and make them kill through invuln/healing to compensate.
4. Great idea, I made a thread about how I thought a similar mechanic should work but I like the bodyguard for mafia mechanic even more.
5. SK's are a great kill by any BG, this should not be touched.

[wightsnow]

4. Great idea, I made a thread about how I thought a similar mechanic should work but I like the bodyguard for mafia mechanic even more.

I'm pretty sure it would end up getting 2 mafia killed instead of just 1. If the person who gets blocked by the mafioso leaves a last will, the GF is pretty screwed.

[Aion]

Thanks for support. I will write something more ;D in a few days as i am currently in final professional examinations and caring for switching to my next life phase.