S-FM: Tales from the Holt of thorns: The Wrath of Lady Death

[Thornholt]

Introduction

Spoiler : Intro :

Next to the town of Wold
Was a highground woodland
From this forest was told
To be a spirit of high demand

One day, the town of Wold
Was out of tributes to be given
And so, this spirit of old
Let her wrath awaken

Amongst the townfolk, she chose at random
For a body to be taken
Now none would fathom
Where she was hidden

During the day she touched people
Who would take part in her game
At night they would assemble
One of them, she'd light aflame

In town, a cult was born
They worshipped the spirit of fire
Through methods most dire
To town an spirit, they were a thorn

Yet, there also was another
To town and cult, a great danger
All he wanted, was to kill the Lady
Little did he know, she'd only take his body

Roles list

Town

• Detective
• Healer
• Crier
• Priest
• Citizen
• Citizen
• Citizen
• Citizen

Cult

• Tailor
• Roleblocker
• Cult Member

Lady Death

Widower

Rolecards

Spoiler : Town Roles :

Detective

Every night, you can stalk someone to see who they visit.

Explanation: The Detective can target someone at night to know who they visit.
Specification: Special feedback is given when targetting someone who was touched by Lady Death. Lady Death will not be seen as following anyone.

Healer

Every night, you can visit someone to save them from death.

Explanation: The Healer can target someone at night to save them from dying, with the exception of lady death touches.
Specification: Cannot heal a lady death touch.

Crier

"Latest news for all", you shout from your stall
"The rooster broke its neck from a fall"
But who'll listen to your news
If none can wake from cuckoos
So you took on waking people at dawn
By shouting the talk of the town

Explanation: At night, the Crier can write an article that will be told anonymously at the start of the next day.
Specification: Article must be sent to GM through PM.

Priest

Every night, the priest tends to someone's sins by inviting them to share with him their thoughts.

Explanation: Every night, the priest targets someone who will be cleansed of the Lady Death's touch (if they were touched). The priest will also notice weird behaviors (Cult member, Widower and Lady Death's targets).
Specification: The priest is immune to Lady Death's Touch.

Citizen

You're just a lonely citizen in a town filled with weird events. Why do you still live here?

Explanation: The Citizen cannot take any special action.
Specification: Nothing of note.

Spoiler : Cult :

Cult Member

You're part of the worshippers of the fire spirit.

Explanation: At night you share a chat with the other Cult Members and can decide with your partners on a single kill.
Specification: Nothing of note.

Tailor

You're part of the worshippers of the fire spirit. You can tailor a target at night to have them show up as a different role when they die.

Explanation: At night you share a chat with the other Cult Members and can decide with your partners on a single kill. You can target someone a night to disguise them in a role of your choice, 3 uses.
Specification: Nothing of note.

Roleblocker

You're part of the worshippers of the fire spirit. At night you can roleblock someone.

Explanation: At night you share a chat with the other Cult Members and can decide with your partners on a single kill. You can roleblock a target at night.
Specification: Nothing of note.

Spoiler : Other Roles :

Lady Death

In Wold's wold you laid asleep
Kept dormant by powers unknown
Tributes served as the upkeep
But Wold now had naught but stone
And so you woke, ready to reap
Their fates thread your hands, ready to be sown

Explanation: During the day, Lady Death can touch between 3 and 5 players. At night, one of these players will die at random. Can target self, but is removed from possible deaths. Is immune to cult night kill.
Specification: The list of touches is given at night. It can't be lower than 3 or higher than 5. The action is obligatory.

Widower

That night, she got up from bed
You thought she was off to the water shed
Come morning, you thought she had left
"Why? Oh Why!?", you cry
"She was the pearl of my eye!"
You rampaged for the commiter of your heart's theft
Only to find the woman you wed
Laid on the ground in the pool she bled

Explanation: You are given one night kill. If you kill your target, you turn into a survivor. If not, you turn into a jester.
Specification: Nothing of note.

Jester

You failed, you failed, you failed
Oh the dispair you may feel
Now that your wife is dead
You're nothing but death's meal

Explanation: You failed to kill your target, your goal is now to be lynched by town.
Specification: Nothing of note.

Survivor

You did it, you avenged her
Now beware of the living
For they may be willing
To take your life as a barter

Explanation: You killed your target, now survive till the end. You have a vest with 3 uses.
Specification: Nothing of note.

Win Condition

Town: Kill Lady Death and all Cult Members.

Cult: Kill Lady Death and all Town.

Lady Death: Kill all Town and Cult Members.

Widower: Your target is Lady Death. Accomplish your second role's win condition.


Order of Operation

• Lady Death touches
• Roleblocker
• PR actions
• Night Kills
• Crier

Possible Feedback

Detective
*You lost track of your target at some point through the night.* (Target was touched)
*Your target visited [PLAYER NAME].*

Priest
*Your target looked disturbed last night, but your presence seemed to calm it.* (Target was touched)
*Your target looked disturbed last night, but you couldn't find out why.* (Target is cult, widower, jester or survivor AND wasn't touched)

Healer
*Your target was attacked and you managed to save it.* (Target attacked by cult or widower and saved)
*Your target was attacked, but didn't need your help after all.* (Target was attacked by cult and survived throught the use of a vest)
*Your target was killed, there's nothing you could do to save it.* (Target was killed by Lady Death touch)

Lady Death
*Yesterday you touched [PLAYER NAMES], [PLAYER NAME] was the one who ended up dying.*

Others
*Yesterday night was most common
Filled with naught, but weird assumption.* (Nothing happened)
*Last night was a night to remember
You blacked out, memory's naught but blur.* (You were touched)

Mechanics/Rules

Game start on Day 1 with a lynch.
Days are 48 hours long.
Nights are 24 hours long.
Be punctual about night actions. Missing even one is grounds for replacement. You can mention not wishing to act.
Roles are revealed upon death.
Lynch requirements are posted at the start of each day. A basic 51% will be used.
No communications outside of game.
No editing posts.
Images and videos are not allowed.

EDIT 1: Changed detective action, Changed investigator role for healer.
EDIT 2: Big edit, Widower role rewritten. Added Jester and Survivor rolecards. Added Roleblocker and Tailor to cult. Added a Possible Feedback section. Added some options to lady death action.
EDIT 3: Feedbacks updated. Final Edit?
EDIT 4: Final edit, Lady Death now immune to cult kill and cannot be detected by priest.
EDIT 5: Allowed Lady Death to change her action, it doesn't affect gameplay and doesn't give her any sort of advantage anyway.
EDIT 6: Small update to OoO, I hadn't changed it according to previous changes.

[Thornholt]

There we go, most of it is down, I still need to write up some flavour text, but that doesn't affect the setup in any ways. Any thoughts?

[Orpz]

I like the theme a lot. One thing though, the solo killers don't seem to have any sort of protection against other night kills. Except for Lady Death, who is immune to the Widower. Is this intended?

[Kat-chan]

I think town is weak at some point maybe I would add a blocking role to the town. I mean in a 13 player game 3mafias/scums/cult members are just enough but there are other 2 killing party so that would make it 3 kills per night. I think town really needs some power up! But I really like the idea!

[Thornholt]

I like the theme a lot. One thing though, the solo killers don't seem to have any sort of protection against other night kills. Except for Lady Death, who is immune to the Widower. Is this intended?

Yes it's intended, since there are 3 kills per night, it balances the whole thing for town. Lady Death dies to widower who then becomes Lady Death again.

@Kat-chan, there are 8 towns, and priest sort of protects them. IMO it's balanced enough as they mostly keep their majority

@Orpz, what's your take on the balance?

[Kat-chan]

I mean it's your game so do as you wish, I will join if I have time buuuuut I don't think it's balanced at all (but then again I might be used to something different)

[Thornholt]

Should I add a bodyguard perhaps? Kills cult members/widower who attacks target, but also dies. Can't affect LD targets

[Kat-chan]

Yeah I think that's a good compromise but I mean if you like it that way then keep it I don't want to ruin your game

[Thornholt]

Yeah I think that's a good compromise but I mean if you like it that way then keep it I don't want to ruin your game

I think bodyguard would be a fair addition.

[Kat-chan]

I think bodyguard would be a fair addition.

Yeah I agree

[Stealthbomber16]

Love the theme.

I think Priest may be a tad overpowered.

[Sen]

Would it be possible to change the text color for the Cult and Lady Death?
I don't know if it's me getting old, but they are hard to read with the dark background of the site.

[Thornholt]

Would it be possible to change the text color for the Cult and Lady Death?
I don't know if it's me getting old, but they are hard to read with the dark background of the site.

Will do

[Thornholt]

Love the theme.

I think Priest may be a tad overpowered.

Partially, but that just gives town the buff of invest they need. Lady death will always show as a citizen to ivestigative roles and even when killed by widower. The only one who can truly have a chance to detect her is the priest, but even then it needs a lot of confirming with town and logical thinkig as well xD. I still haven't got a chance to work on my setup as I'm not on my pc

[Thornholt]

Here you go bud, Colors changed for easier viewing.

[Thornholt]

I like the theme a lot. One thing though, the solo killers don't seem to have any sort of protection against other night kills. Except for Lady Death, who is immune to the Widower. Is this intended?

How far am I in the acknowledgment queue?

[Orpz]

What do you mean by Lady Death's touched assembling? Do they get a night chat?


In my opinion, Town is way too strong. Every power role is super buffed except Crier, and the scums don't really have a way to hide since there's no deception and the only roles that they can viably claim is Citizen. I'd take down the investigation power several notches, and then maybe add a healer to counteract the several kills.

The Town's relatively low numbers isn't as big of a nerfing factor considering how likely it is for scum to cross-fire. They are simply too powerful and can force out several scums on day 2.

[Thornholt]

What do you mean by Lady Death's touched assembling? Do they get a night chat?


In my opinion, Town is way too strong. Every power role is super buffed except Crier, and the scums don't really have a way to hide since there's no deception and the only roles that they can viably claim is Citizen. I'd take down the investigation power several notches, and then maybe add a healer to counteract the several kills.

The Town's relatively low numbers isn't as big of a nerfing factor considering how likely it is for scum to cross-fire. They are simply too powerful and can force out several scums on day 2.

At first I thought as much, but no they don,t get a chat. They just visit each other and one of them dies. Detective would get info on losing sight of his target if said target was touched by lady death.

EDIT 1: Changed detective action, Changed investigator role for healer

Applied changes, what does it say? It's nice to finally have someone thinking town is OP rater than scum.

[Orpz]

Awesome. Town's strong, but their strength is pretty in-line versus the scums now.

Mafia however, is falling behind. None of them are power roles, which hurts their ability to disrupt or deceive Town/Lady Death. A good addition, IMO, is the addition of a Godfather-like role with immunities. This will cause them to have a better chance against Town investigation and Neutral kills. It's up to you to add more Mafia power roles, but in 13-player games most hosts have 2-3 Mafia power roles for a 3-man Mafia.

[Thornholt]

Awesome. Town's strong, but their strength is pretty in-line versus the scums now.

Mafia however, is falling behind. None of them are power roles, which hurts their ability to disrupt or deceive Town/Lady Death. A good addition, IMO, is the addition of a Godfather-like role with immunities. This will cause them to have a better chance against Town investigation and Neutral kills. It's up to you to add more Mafia power roles, but in 13-player games most hosts have 2-3 Mafia power roles for a 3-man Mafia.

Huum, true... I don'twant to add too much though, what if I add an immune and a rolebocker? Lady death touch can't be roleblocked and pierces immunity though.

[MattZed]

Does Widower need to win as Lady Death to win, or do they just need to kill her and then they can just troll around?

Suggestion: Switch the Cult and Widower colors to reflect how factions are usually colored.

What does Lady Death do if there aren't 3 people to touch?

Wait, when does Lady Death touch people? (I'm wondering especially for how the Priest can stop her touch)

What is the detective's "special feedback"?

Holy shit 3 KPN. Town can lynch scum every day and still lose.

[Thornholt]

Does Widower need to win as Lady Death to win, or do they just need to kill her and then they can just troll around?
He can win twice... if that's acceptable

Suggestion: Switch the Cult and Widower colors to reflect how factions are usually colored.
will do

What does Lady Death do if there aren't 3 people to touch?
huuum, that means she'd survive a night 3v1. making the day 2v1. at that point, if she survives the day, she wins by default. so that would be a tie situation, thx.

Wait, when does Lady Death touch people? (I'm wondering especially for how the Priest can stop her touch)

Specification: The list of touches is given at night and cannot be changed once given.

The priest will act as a healer, but specific to Lady death touch.

What is the detective's "special feedback"?

Detective would get info on losing sight of his target if said target was touched by lady death.

I'l change the rolecard about the cult feedback too, that one doesn't apply.

Holy shit 3 KPN. Town can lynch scum every day and still lose.

Yup, but according to Orpz, it,s fair. And the way I see it, it's fair too. I may only add a roleblocker to the cult faction, depending on how orpz sees the balance.

[MattZed]

Can Lady Death's random kill hit someone who was already going to die that night? (IE: The cult target)

The 3 KPN is still a little odd; we've had multiple-scum games with 2 KPN all the time, but 3 means that a town mislynch could turn day 2 into 4v3v1v1, which puts town already in the minority.

Does Widower need to be alive to win

Suggestion: Tweak Widower role; they seem to have the easiest wincon, having to kill one person and having a night kill to help do it. To solve a lot of my concerns, perhaps make the Widower an executioner who doesn't know who Lady Death is, but needs to get them lynched. If Lady Death dies at night, then they become a survivor. Possibly give them a night action that helps check for Lady Death.

[Orpz]

Yup, but according to Orpz, it,s fair. And the way I see it, it's fair too. I may only add a roleblocker to the cult faction, depending on how orpz sees the balance.

:P I was gonna address the KPN issue later. One subject at a time!

Huum, true... I don'twant to add too much though, what if I add an immune and a rolebocker? Lady death touch can't be roleblocked and pierces immunity though.

That sounds good. I'm not sure if Lady Death's attack should pierce immunity though, since Mafia needs to be able to have some resistance against her.

[MattZed]

That sounds good. I'm not sure if Lady Death's attack should pierce immunity though, since Mafia needs to be able to have some resistance against her.

But how does she kill them?

I think one detective-immune and one roleblocker should do fine. If you like making your games *fun,* instead of one of those add a tailor, possibly one that also learns the target's true role.

[Thornholt]

Can Lady Death's random kill hit someone who was already going to die that night? (IE: The cult target)
yes

The 3 KPN is still a little odd; we've had multiple-scum games with 2 KPN all the time, but 3 means that a town mislynch could turn day 2 into 4v3v1v1, which puts town already in the minority.
well, not every game has to be the same

Does Widower need to be alive to win
Nope, oncce he killed lady death, he has 1 win, but keeps playing for a second one with the new role
Suggestion: Tweak Widower role; they seem to have the easiest wincon, having to kill one person and having a night kill to help do it. To solve a lot of my concerns, perhaps make the Widower an executioner who doesn't know who Lady Death is, but needs to get them lynched. If Lady Death dies at night, then they become a survivor. Possibly give them a night action that helps check for Lady Death.

. . . that kinda kills the whole idea of the role continuing...

[Thornholt]

But how does she kill them?

I think one detective-immune and one roleblocker should do fine. If you like making your games *fun,* instead of one of those add a tailor, possibly one that also learns the target's true role.

she gives a list of targets, one of them just dies at random... not sure what your question is

what's the tailor role?

[DarknessB]

In honor of MattZed's S-FM titled to this effect, is suicide allowed?

[Thornholt]

In honor of MattZed's S-FM titled to this effect, is suicide allowed?

huum... no

[MattZed]

. . . that kinda kills the whole idea of the role continuing...

Certainly, not every setup has to be the same, but in a 13-player game, 3 KPN is a problem. It makes the game highly dependent on night kills to the point that N1/N2 could be the deciding phases of the game, which goes against the idea of mafia being discussion-based. Town itself is rather strong due to their confirmed power roles, but if the three N1 kills all hit town, their chances of winning go way down.

The easy solution is just to remove a KPN somewhere. How you go about that it up to you. I suggested the Widower because they also had some other things that concerned me: the "can win twice" thing is odd, (Orpz would have to rule on it) and their wincon is too easy; to be a fair game, they should only win around 33% of the time.

she gives a list of targets, one of them just dies at random... not sure what your question is

what's the tailor role?

I was talking to Orpz there; the problem with an immune cultist is that it makes it really hard for Lady Death to kill the cult, when really she should have the same win odds they do.

Tailor is a role that changes what someone appears as upon death. (and possibly to investigation, if you want to make it stronger) It could work well in a setup like this because there are four confirmed town power roles who, if they are about to be lynched, could just claim their role and be safe.

[Thornholt]

Certainly, not every setup has to be the same, but in a 13-player game, 3 KPN is a problem. It makes the game highly dependent on night kills to the point that N1/N2 could be the deciding phases of the game, which goes against the idea of mafia being discussion-based. Town itself is rather strong due to their confirmed power roles, but if the three N1 kills all hit town, their chances of winning go way down.

The easy solution is just to remove a KPN somewhere. How you go about that it up to you. I suggested the Widower because they also had some other things that concerned me: the "can win twice" thing is odd, (Orpz would have to rule on it) and their wincon is too easy; to be a fair game, they should only win around 33% of the time.


I was talking to Orpz there; the problem with an immune cultist is that it makes it really hard for Lady Death to kill the cult, when really she should have the same win odds they do.

Tailor is a role that changes what someone appears as upon death. (and possibly to investigation, if you want to make it stronger) It could work well in a setup like this because there are four confirmed town power roles who, if they are about to be lynched, could just claim their role and be safe.

ok, so changing widower (sk) for an exec.. and switching 2 cult members to a roleblock and tailor roles. Would that make it better? I'll have to tweak my flavour text a bit XD

[MattZed]

ok, so changing widower (sk) for an exec.. and switching 2 cult members to a roleblock and tailor roles. Would that make it better? I'll have to tweak my flavour text a bit XD

That would do a lot for balance. You'll have to decide where in the OoO the Tailor goes. (if he's before kills, cult can tailor someone and then kill them, but if he's after, then they have to wait)

Suggestion:Buff Lady Death a little; she should have the same win chance as the cult, but she doesn't have a backup anymore if she dies. Perhaps a 1-use vest and detection immunity.

[Thornholt]

That would do a lot for balance. You'll have to decide where in the OoO the Tailor goes. (if he's before kills, cult can tailor someone and then kill them, but if he's after, then they have to wait)

Suggestion:Buff Lady Death a little; she should have the same win chance as the cult, but she doesn't have a backup anymore if she dies. Perhaps a 1-use vest and detection immunity.

she already has detection immunity. She appears as citizen to investigator roles. She already can't be roleblocked. I guess a 1-use avoid your own curse (vest) could be added if necessary. I'll make the changes once I get home.

Would you care to look at my other game while at it?

[secondpassing]

I'm getting ideas already.

Can lady death self target?

Also, a widower is a male widow.

[Thornholt]

I'm getting ideas already.

Can lady death self target?

Also, a widower is a male widow.

no she can't

No shit sherlock, I didn't call it that for no reason, read the flavour text XD.

[secondpassing]

no she can't

No shit sherlock, I didn't call it that for no reason, read the flavour text XD.

But but he undergoes a sex change?

[secondpassing]

Widower - LADY death

[Thornholt]

Widower - LADY death

lady death is a spirit who took someone's body.

[Thornholt]

BIG EDIT!!!! SETUP READY FOR REVIEW... Probably good to go this time. Please give me your output on the changes. I believe everything's in order this time around.

[Orpz]

Can Mafia power roles use their abilities and night kill in the same night?
What feedback does Priest get if his target is Town but isn't touched?
If you're going to have a list of possible feedbacks in the setup, make sure you include ALL possible feedbacks, including Lady Death, Roleblocker, etc.

[Thornholt]

Can Mafia power roles use their abilities and night kill in the same night?
What feedback does Priest get if his target is Town but isn't touched?
If you're going to have a list of possible feedbacks in the setup, make sure you include ALL possible feedbacks, including Lady Death, Roleblocker, etc.

Alright I'll work on the list.

How's the rest though?

[Thornholt]

NEED ADVICE!!!
I am currently writing possible feedbacks and would like to know what roles, if any, should leave no feedback in your opinions. Also I'm thinking of perhaps making some feedbacks be the same for some roles as an alternative (ex. lady touch/RB, Healer/Priest)

thx in advance

[MattZed]

NEED ADVICE!!!
I am currently writing possible feedbacks and would like to know what roles, if any, should leave no feedback in your opinions. Also I'm thinking of perhaps making some feedbacks be the same for some roles as an alternative (ex. lady touch/RB, Healer/Priest)

thx in advance

IMO all of the roles should leave no feedback. Some might suggest roleblocker should leave feedback, but this has the problem of anyone being roleblocked can be semi-confirmed as non-cult.

[Thornholt]

I was already leaving RB and tailor with no FB. LD touch is gonna leave feedback. And I was thinking of having priest and healer give feedback with healer receiving none.

How would that sound like?

[Thornholt]

EDIT 3: Feedbacks updated. Final Edit?

I believe setup is ready for approval. Did I miss anything?

[Orpz]

Approved

You can post signups when you're ready; be sure to read the hosting guides! If you have any questions, you can PM me for help.

[MattZed]

Lady Death's job is still a little too hard; she has no teammates, someone trying to kill her, and has one town role that is immune to her. Suggestion: Make her immune to the cultist's night kill, have the priest not detect her, and make it so she can kill the priest. Otherwise, all it takes is the priest or cultists to target her and she loses.

Alternative suggestion: Make her wincon easier, such as surviving long enough to see herself kill 3 people, or make it to the final 3/4.

[Orpz]

Actually, yes, you need to give Lady Death a buff. Detection Immunity is not enough. It was fine before when Widower was a potential ally and Mafia was weak, but now that those have changed, Lady Death needs something too. Mattzed's suggestions are good.

[Thornholt]

Gave Lady Death immunity to cult night kill. Is everything good or should I change some wincons too?

[MattZed]

Gave Lady Death immunity to cult night kill. Is everything good or should I change some wincons too?

I still think she should be immune to priest detection and be able to kill him.

Everything else about the setup looks perfectly fine. It's just an issue of buffing Lady Death to make sure that, even though she's playing solo, she has a fair chance and winning.