Framer Issues

[Lysergic]

Does anyone else find the Framer to be a terrible role to get as Mafia?

What I mean by this is that the Framer is one of the few roles in the game (the only other that comes to mind is Witch) that has no "alternative" on the town side. If investigated, the Framer will ALWAYS be a Framer, and CANNOT lie about it. He cannot even feign being framed since he shows up with a unique message (same with the witch).

Take this example:
A game starts. The Mafia carefully plans their game, discovering the Sheriff, killing or blocking the Doctors guarding him, and then killing the Sheriff. There is an unknown Investigator left. After losing a member (or two, depending on Mafia size), the Mafia is cut down to a role with deniability (Mafioso can claim Vig, GF can claim Survivor or Citizen depending on settings, Consort can claim investigator) and the Framer. By luck, the Investigator finds the Framer and confronts him.

All remaining town will lynch the Framer. There is absolutely no defense that the Framer can use. No matter what, he immediately dies upon being discovered, with no lie able to help him hide.

It just seems horribly underpowered. Framer and Witch are the ONLY roles that don't have deniability in the face of an investigation. Even with deniability, most accused get lynched by a bloodthirsty and frightened town. But as Framer, you are almost guaranteed to die from the start of the game.

Anyone else think this sucks? I personally hate getting Framer ALMOST as much as I hate getting Doctor (Doctor isn't OP, I just hate it - Framer is OP, AND I hate it).

Anyways, for consideration, I think DR should pick a role being added in the upcoming patch and give them the same investigated description as the Framer (good with his hands, I believe?). That is all.

EDIT:
Oh, I just realized, Spy and Mason both are unique Investigator descriptions, but do not suffer from the same problem since they are town roles. However, Spy seems like a good target for a change to be the "opposite" of Framer.

[Membrax]

That's true, reminds me of the arsonist before bus driver was added. You had basically 2 "luck-check" each night: 1) not being killed 2) not being investigated ;D

I agree Spy could be the opposite of Framer as they both "move about a place in a sneaky or stealthy fashion".

[Dark.Revenant]

Spy collides with Blackmailer.

In any case, in the upcoming update the Framer is getting a default-on option to be immune to detection like the Godfather.

[Lysergic]

Perfect DR; solves the issue completely.

Now if only we could get people to NOT leave games when they get Citizen, all my problems with Mafia detection would be solved. xDD

[Zack]

I've had several games now with citizens on EU, included in my setup in random town. Surprisingly there weren't as many citizen rage quits as I thought there would be. Some people even claimed my setup was OP for Town :P

[Goonswarm]

Spy collides with Blackmailer.

In any case, in the upcoming update the Framer is getting a default-on option to be immune to detection like the Godfather.

GL to survivors after this, anyone coming up as not susp surv/jester/civ will be instalynched.

[Dark.Revenant]

Actually, Survivor and Witch now share investigator descriptions. Citizen is the only legit not-suspicious role.

[Zack]

That is going to screw survivors over, lol... But I guess if Framer gets immune to detect then... Yeah, Survivors in general are going to be lynched left and right no matter what you do. Increase points for Survivors if they make it to the end I say, by alot - points depend on their number of vests as such that with 1-2 vests they will get more than citizen, something like SK/Arson level of points. I'm serious, dead serious.