Role change: Arsonist

[nopro]

When the Arsonist settings: "Target always dies" and "Victims target dies" are both on it often happens that the arsonist burns himself. The arsonist needs luck to survive his own fire.

Thats why the setting "Victims target dies" should be changed to "players who visit the victim die" (making the victim like a vet for one night).

With the new setting the arsonist cannot accidently burn himself and a douzed doc cannot use his "heal" as a weapon to kill a player.

The Kill/Night would be roughly the same (same when the target does not know if he was douzed).

It would also make sense because the victims house is burning and players who will visit that burning house will die.

[deathworlds]

I approve.

[Cryptonic]

Being able to be hit by his own burn was the risk of having the additional KPN.

Turning everyone into suiciding Veterans on alert can result in an unlimited amount of KPN. That's like an MM targeting multiple people in 1 night, ignoring risk of BG, piercing immunity, while also attacking the person he targets directly.

No thanks

[Slaol]

I like it. Makes infinitely more sense, why the fuck didn't we do this before

ITT: the rare Slaol v Cryptonic

[Cryptonic]

Yea it does make a lot more sense, but half the shit in the game doesn't make sense lol

It's insanely OP lol


Think how many power roles are in a game. usually 13/15 roles visit. If you douse 2-3 people then ignite, that'll probably kill the entire game lol. Especially if more than 1 Arson spawns.

[Cryptonic]

I think that if this is the option, douse HAS TO be informed. Otherwise, it's unfair. If someone reveals they are doused, then at least people have a chance to stay the hell away lol
That balances it some.

[Mikecall]

This change really would make arsonist incredibly op, rather stick with normal arsonist.

[Slaol]

I think that if this is the option, douse HAS TO be informed. Otherwise, it's unfair. If someone reveals they are doused, then at least people have a chance to stay the hell away lol
That balances it some.

Deal no deal

[Slaol]

Yea it does make a lot more sense, but half the shit in the game doesn't make sense lol

It's insanely OP lol


Think how many power roles are in a game. usually 13/15 roles visit. If you douse 2-3 people then ignite, that'll probably kill the entire game lol. Especially if more than 1 Arson spawns.

Im cursed with balancing from a standpoint that thinks Citizen should be in every game

[Cryptonic]

Im cursed with balancing from a standpoint that thinks Citizen should be in every game

Yea cits would make it balanced

[Yukitaka Oni]

I follow Cryptonic idea

[DarknessB]

Agree with Cryptonic on this. The "turn doused people into suiciding Veterans" idea would result in a total wipeout / insane body count most of the time. Personally, I am okay with the Arsonist having some risk of dying at night with the "victim's targets die" and "target always dies" options on. I think that's the inherent trade off -- the "victim's targets die" option can always be turned off by the host if he wants the Arsonist to stand a better chance at night (but at the cost of more burns).

Being able to be hit by his own burn was the risk of having the additional KPN.

Turning everyone into suiciding Veterans on alert can result in an unlimited amount of KPN. That's like an MM targeting multiple people in 1 night, ignoring risk of BG, piercing immunity, while also attacking the person he targets directly.

No thanks

[DarknessB]

That works in FM, but in SC2, many players have zero attention span and regularly role quit even when they get vanilla TPRs like Doctor, Investigator, or Sheriff, much less Citizen. I think it would be interesting to see a hybrid setup -- something in between FM and SC2 in terms of number of TPRs vs. Citizens. It would probably require an in-house group though because many SC2 players flip out whenever they see set role Citizens or roll Citizen.

Im cursed with balancing from a standpoint that thinks Citizen should be in every game

[nopro]

In average a player gets as many visits as he visits other people. The triad gets slighty less visits then the average (because they rarely visit themselfes) and the town slighty more.
It depends on the setup but I guess a player gets about 0,6-0,7 visits each night (Neutral benign + neutral evil + jailor + vigi often stay at home & arsonist+town government + vet + any roleblocked role always stay at home when the arso burns).

While the average Kill/Night would stay the same, it has a chance to burn many more people than average.

[SuperJack]

While the average Kill/Night would stay the same, it has a chance to burn many more people than average.

That. Does contradict itself.

[nopro]

it also has a chance to burn less people then the average.

An example: Current settings: The arso douzed a sheriff + bg → 4 people will die

Suggested setting: The arso douzed a sheriff+bg → between 2-8 players may die

When the target knows he is douzed it is more likely that only 2 or 3 people will die.

[SuperJack]

Leave it as it is, and add electromanic.

[Cryptonic]

it also has a chance to burn less people then the average.

An example: Current settings: The arso douzed a sheriff + bg → 4 people will die

Suggested setting: The arso douzed a sheriff+bg → between 2-14 players may die

When the target knows he is douzed it is more likely that only 2 or 3 people will die.

Fixed for you. Also, that last line is complete speculation lol.
why not just use the best Arsonist settings that give KPN = n-1
anything over 1 KPN is garbage imo

[nopro]

KPN is not n-1. Many of the douzed people will die before the arso can burn them. Recently I had a game were the arso killed 2 people by d5 or d6: A bg and himself.

that 14 people die would be very unlikely: maf must not kill anyone and everyone has to visit the same 2 players.

But you are right: the whole KPN is very speculatively (even with the current settings): His targets may die too early, it is unpredictable who will visit his target, the arso can try to increase the KPN with the suggested setting by douzing people who are more likely to get visited, ...

I think that if this is the option, douse HAS TO be informed.

I agree. This also enables new strategies for scum.

[Cryptonic]

KPN is not n-1. Many of the douzed people will die before the arso can burn them. Recently I had a game were the arso killed 2 people by d5 or d6: A bg and himself.

that 14 people die would be very unlikely: maf must not kill anyone and everyone has to visit the same 2 players.

But you are right: the whole KPN is very speculatively (even with the current settings): His targets may die too early, it is unpredictable who will visit his target, the arso can try to increase the KPN with the suggested setting by douzing people who are more likely to get visited, ...



I agree. This also enables new strategies for scum.

Arsonist KPN is n-1. Just because something can happen to make that different, doesn't mean that's not what his KPN is.
If a SK decides not to kill, or attacks immune people, or attacks someone who dies, his KPN is still 1 lol

[Cryptonic]

ie. It's calculated by Max kills

[Slaol]

Btw, when Recenant originally updated Arsonist he did so with the intention of takig Arsonist from Night-1 to 1 per night.

How it plays out in any given game is up to possibility, but the numbers DR ran told him the update would net Arsonist 1 more Kill Per Game on average

[deathworlds]

Arsonist gets to douse 2 people at night 1?

I think that would even out kpn.

[SuperJack]

Btw, when Recenant originally updated Arsonist he did so with the intention of takig Arsonist from Night-1 to 1 per night.

How it plays out in any given game is up to possibility, but the numbers DR ran told him the update would net Arsonist 1 more Kill Per Game on average

Which is why the arsonist having the possibility of killing himself to make fair yus? I like the arsonist as it is.

[SuperJack]

Arsonist cleans roles/lw with burn?

[Cryptonic]

Arson can burn at end of the day if he survives lynch lol
Then that's 1 KPN lol

[nopro]

Btw, when Recenant originally updated Arsonist he did so with the intention of takig Arsonist from Night-1 to 1 per night.

How it plays out in any given game is up to possibility, but the numbers DR ran told him the update would net Arsonist 1 more Kill Per Game on average

İou are mixing up average KPN and max. KPN - The average KPN is lower. Just play a few games and prefer arso. I doubt you will get a KPN of 1.
But my intend was not to increase KPN, but to make sure that the arso does not need a whole load of luck to not kill himself. Currently arsonist is one of the hardest roles in the game.

[Slaol]

İou are mixing up average KPN and max. KPN - The average KPN is lower. Just play a few games and prefer arso. I doubt you will get a KPN of 1.
But my intend was not to increase KPN, but to make sure that the arso does not need a whole load of luck to not kill himself. Currently arsonist is one of the hardest roles in the game.

Lol.

[SuperJack]

Luck? You just have to pick the right people. And not save all your burns for the last moment. Perhaps you just suck at arsonist.

Your intent was not to incease the KPN? Yet your suggestion does exactly that.

[Cryptonic]

Just turn off the "kills targets target" and you won't kill yourself lol
When that option is on, I specifically target the arsonist over and over so they don't win lol

[Elixir]

This is an interesting thread.

The doused person becoming a burning house vet makes sense thematically but is pretty broken and it will lead to more town wipes then you'd expect. At 3+ douses its pretty much a game wipe according to probability(agreeing with Crypt here)

Additionally it would be difficult to convey this kind of a status quo reversal to the masses of battle net without everyone screaming about bugs for 40 years. (That being said I dont even want to think about the fucking bus driver and witch interactions here)

I dont think it's a good idea to change it in Sc2 Mafia.

Your better option is finding some kind of middle ground setting like where and if an Arsonist doesnt do anything on any given night (whereby they would normally undouse themself) should no undousing be required - prepare 1x Flame Retardant suit or something preventing 1x instance of fire related death like an auto vest. In order to prep it they need a day which slows them down anyway if they really want to be safe.

Though all in all, I dont see too many arsonists killing themselves in the games I played so I'm unsure how widespread the problem is. I'm unsure if we really need to intervene here.

Random idea.