Don't Call Your Roles "Random" Unless you actuall you mean Random.

[Firebringer]

I felt we were getting way off topic on that setup thread discussing this, but I really think this should be done by all hosts future and present. I have no problem with you guys selecting the actual role list that is in the game, but could you be more transparent than saying "Random" when you don't mean it?

A more apt description for what you are doing might be "Selected" or "Picked" or "Chosen". When I was talking to this with SuperJack he thought hosts should call it hidden, but I don't think that really describes what you are doing. Although even that would be better than using "Random".

Random doesn't mean you picked it, that isn't random and no, it isn't semantics. Look up semantics if you don't understand what semantics mean.

I have no problem with hosts doing what they want with their setup for balance sake as long as you tell us about it. For instance Cryptonic mentioned in that thread that he doesn't want 7 Sheriff in a game because of the RNG system. Well here is a few ways to fix that:

1) A weighted system that makes sheriff harder to get. Of course this is disclosed somewhere in setup.
2) Limitations on number of roles possible. You can define that anywhere in the setup probably preferred in role cards.
3) Categories to limit how many of any "type" of role you define in the setup. Obviously shown in the setup.

The reason for this is for anyone who wants to come and play forum mafia who hasn't experienced it before. When a random player who has played arcade mafia comes on here obviously they are going to have a different experience from regular mafia. The thing is that when you aren't telling them things such as That you already decided on exact roles in the game, it looks like the deck is stacked even if you did it to balance it.

Like if you were a neutral poker dealer, you wouldn't stack the deck so that the players would get the cards you chosen, would you? Even if it was for balanced someone feels cheated.

[ika]

No.

[BananaCucho]

tl;dr

No.

+1

[Dagaen]

Umm, the thing is players get their roles at random. It's just the setup that is usually fixed. To correct your poker metaphor: we all know that deck has 52 cards, but we don't who receives which card. Which is exactly what we want.

I guess it's no harm telling that setup is hand-picked, but saying smth like "random" or saying nothing at all prevents using meta against host. And it doesn't really matter for new players as well, because it doesn't ruin anyone's fun, right? Unless someone enjoys overpowered setups:P

So in the end: I guess I can agree with you, but I don't think it's such a big deal.

[Cryptonic]

Why can't you just pretend everything is random?

Also, it is semantics. Semantics is how something is understood by different people. When it comes to Forum Mafia, you should understand random = hidden. Saying random allows us to random if we please, and not when we don't want to. It allows us to fix gay ass setups that result from randoming by fixing roles. Sure, hosts could say "Hidden" instead, and random if they had wanted. But it really doesn't fucking matter as the same thing is happening.

I don't wanna know how you reacted when you were told Santa isn't real.

[Dagaen]

I don't wanna know how you reacted when you were told Santa isn't real.

That's when little Timmy became Bringer of Fire and decided to fight Evil on this world.


Jk man, I respect people with strong ethics But as I said: it's probably lost cause in here.

[Cryptonic]

It's not ethics, though lol. You don't know if it's random or not, that adds to the "randomness" and prevents people from straight up deciphering a setup without destroying a setup.

Example:
I took a balanced Forum mafia game, and added weightings
1:1:3 for Sheriff, Doctor, Citizen.

Now let's see 10 setups:

1.Sheriff
2.Citizen
3.Citizen
4.Citizen
5.Citizen
Result: Town gimped

1.Sheriff
2.Sheriff
3.Doctor
4.Sheriff
5.Sheriff
Result: Mafia gets steamrolled.

1.Citizen
2.Citizen
3.Citizen
4.Doctor
5.Citizen
Result: Town gimped.

1.Doctor
2.Citizen
3.Sheriff
4.Sheriff
5.Citizen
Result: Mafia gimped, near steamroll.

1.Doctor
2.Sheriff
3.Citizen
4.Sheriff
5.Doctor
Result: Mafia gimped, near steamroll.

1.Citizen
2.Citizen
3.Citizen
4.Sheriff
5.Citizen
Result: Town gimped.

1.Citizen
2.Citizen
3.Sheriff
4.Sheriff
5.Citizen
Result: Town gimped by have sheriff CC's.

1.Doctor
2.Citizen
3.Citizen
4.Citizen
5.Sheriff
Result: BALANCED

1.Citizen
2.Doctor
3.Doctor
4.Doctor
5.Citizen
Result: Lol what.

1.Citizen
2.Citizen
3.Citizen
4.Citizen
5.Citizen
Result: Very high chance of town loss.

1.Doctor
2.Citizen
3.Sheriff
4.Citizen
5.Citizen
Result: Balanced.



2/10 times is not enough for me to ever think about randoming my games lol.
And I don't think that you should worry yourself over simple things like the word "random"

[Firebringer]

Why can't you just pretend everything is random?

Also, it is semantics. Semantics is how something is understood by different people. When it comes to Forum Mafia, you should understand random = hidden. Saying random allows us to random if we please, and not when we don't want to. It allows us to fix gay ass setups that result from randoming by fixing roles. Sure, hosts could say "Hidden" instead, and random if they had wanted. But it really doesn't fucking matter as the same thing is happening.

I don't wanna know how you reacted when you were told Santa isn't real.

Nope, I will not drink the Kool aide. I am going to ask every person from now on what they mean by random. If I don't get a answer to my liking, I am not signing up.

What you want is to give hosts the power when they already have all the power and one of their simple tasks that they need to do unbiased is assigning roles and getting the actual role list determined by whatever their setup is allowed. Then obviously manage the games. It is not the same thing happening as when someone picks the roles as when they use a rng system. RNG is unbiased, Selection is.

Someone in skype was telling me when they play FMs that whenever a certain player hosted they always managed to work in a certain role, which wasn't already defined in setup but was shown in possibilities, so there is this other game where players now have to predict what the host is doing which isn't fair to someone who doesn't know the host. You not see the problem with this?


Also I tried to disprove santas existence when I was a child, I was quite happy when I found out he didn't exist.


Also to your weighting system did you not see you can add limitations on roles as defined? Or categories? You have one category and no role limits. Yep, couldn't just put two different categories or do role limits. Nope going to go with an illustration to make my idea look ridiculous.

Here ill help you.

Lets do two role categories. Investigative and Protective, Same number of players.
Investigative
Investigative
Investigative
Protective
Protective
Protective=Citizen and Doctor, Investigative = Sheriff.

OF COURSE IT ISNT BALANCED

[RLVG]

When I make setups, they're entirely random give or take I reroll 3 times just in case I think it would break the game or make it dull, but it's entirely random. Host Meta on me is useless. All players are always first-pick randomised, so there's no favoritism and it's all on the RNG.

Think I've been called out for making some setups way too random sometimes.

The next time I host, that'll be the first time I random purely random first pick.

[ika]

So your complaining about semantics?

Frankly fire, you're going to find that your arguing a cause that has been established already and that you will get no traction.

If you dont want to play cus of what you think more power to you. But host are not going to change cus you dislike a wording or how a host mods.

pedti: RLVG is really the only host that has "true" random

[Cryptonic]

Every Forum Mafia on this site ever has been 100% randomized unless otherwise stated. Believing anything other than this is just a conspiracy theory.


Also, you can do whatever you want when you host a game, but don't push your wants onto other hosts.

[Cryptonic]

pedti: RLVG is really the only host that has "true" random

Even then, we're only taking his word for it ;) He's WIFOMing against host meta

[Firebringer]

Every Forum Mafia on this site ever has been 100% randomized unless otherwise stated. Believing anything other than this is just a conspiracy theory.

Must be the ponies man. They control everything, they are everywhere.

[RLVG]

Even then, we're only taking his word for it ;) He's WIFOMing against host meta

I have a game going on soon, so I'll do an example setup generation with said game setup.
This is how I do it.







Faction 1 has a preset and a random role.
Faction 2 has a preset and a random role.
Neutral Benign is random.
Town has 4 preset and 4 random.

= Eleminate the preset roles

This means 7 slots to random generate.

Faction 1 = SK, MM, HM.
Faction 2 = Arso, Electro.
Neutral Benign = Amne, Jes, Exe, Surv.
Town = Escort, Bus Driver, Doctor, Vigilante, Journalist, Jailor.

3 factions has a single slot, and the Town has 4 slots.
= Make a list of roles with 1X of each non-town, and 4X of each town role.



Written List =

Serial Killer 1
Mass Murderer 1
Hitman 1
Arsonist 2
Electromaniac 2
Amnesiac 3
Jester 3
Executioner 3
Survivor 3
Escort 4
Escort 4
Escort 4
Escort 4
Bus Driver 4
Bus Driver 4
Bus Driver 4
Bus Driver 4
Doctor 4
Doctor 4
Doctor 4
Doctor 4
Vigilante 4
Vigilante 4
Vigilante 4
Vigilante 4
Journalist 4
Journalist 4
Journalist 4
Journalist 4
Jailor 4
Jailor 4
Jailor 4
Jailor 4



Randomly Generated List = (Pick the roles from top to down)


Escort 4
Vigilante 4
Journalist 4
Jailor 4
Doctor 4
Bus Driver 4
Survivor 3
Escort 4
Bus Driver 4
Vigilante 4
Escort 4
Vigilante 4
Doctor 4
Journalist 4
Jailor 4
Mass Murderer 1
Hitman 1
Journalist 4
Doctor 4
Bus Driver 4
Serial Killer 1
Executioner 3
Jester 3
Bus Driver 4
Doctor 4
Amnesiac 3
Vigilante 4
Escort 4
Jailor 4
Journalist 4
Jailor 4
Electromaniac 2
Arsonist 2

[Cryptonic]

1. Jailor 4
2. Vigilante 4
3. Vigilante 4
4. Bus Driver 4
5. Journalist 4
6. Journalist 4
7.Serial Killer 1
8. Arsonist 2
9. Mass Murderer 1
10. Hitman 1
11. Doctor 4
12. Amnesiac 3
13. Bus Driver 4
14. Jailor 4
15. Electromaniac 2
16. Journalist 4
17. Jailor 4
18. Vigilante 4
19. Journalist 4
20. Escort 4
21. Escort 4
22. Jester 3
23. Bus Driver 4
24. Executioner 3
25. Escort 4
26. Doctor 4
27. Escort 4
28. Survivor 3
29. Jailor 4
30. Doctor 4
31. Bus Driver 4
32. Doctor 4
33. Vigilante 4



You'd really allow that above setup? (This was generated with 1 randomization)

Second: (this one is even worse)

1. Vigilante 4
2. Vigilante 4
3. Amnesiac 3
4. Vigilante 4
5. Doctor 4
6. Electromaniac 2
7. Journalist 4
8. Jailor 4
9.Serial Killer 1
10. Bus Driver 4
11. Jailor 4
12. Hitman 1
13. Mass Murderer 1
14. Escort 4
15. Escort 4
16. Arsonist 2
17. Survivor 3
18. Doctor 4
19. Doctor 4
20. Journalist 4
21. Doctor 4
22. Escort 4
23. Vigilante 4
24. Executioner 3
25. Jester 3
26. Jailor 4
27. Journalist 4
28. Journalist 4
29. Bus Driver 4
30. Bus Driver 4
31. Jailor 4
32. Escort 4
33. Bus Driver 4




Third: (lol 3 roleblocks)

1. Amnesiac 3
2. Electromaniac 2
3. Escort 4
4. Escort 4
5. Survivor 3
6. Escort 4
7. Journalist 4
8. Jailor 4
9. Bus Driver 4
10. Hitman 1
11. Vigilante 4
12. Doctor 4
13. Vigilante 4
14. Arsonist 2
15. Bus Driver 4
16. Journalist 4
17.Serial Killer 1
18. Bus Driver 4
19. Journalist 4
20. Jailor 4
21. Doctor 4
22. Jailor 4
23. Executioner 3
24. Bus Driver 4
25. Doctor 4
26. Mass Murderer 1
27. Vigilante 4
28. Jailor 4
29. Jester 3
30. Doctor 4
31. Escort 4
32. Vigilante 4
33. Journalist 4




I have a hard time believing you'd accept any of those three randomizations, RLVG, regardless of what your preset roles are

[ika]

10/10 would play

thats the thing i like abotu RLVG its jsut fuckerys

[MattZed]

Fire, I'm with you in that I prefer the word "random" to mean something actually random for sake of fairness and stopping host Meta. I'd personally feel a little cheated if the role assignments weren't actually completely random. Calling a hidden setup random? I wouldn't feel cheated so much as just a little lied to.

However, the issue here is far overstated. I've been lurking for a while, and I don't recall falsely-promised randomness in recent games.

[Orpz]

First, thank you for creating a separate thread to discuss this issue.

I have no issues with using "Hidden" in lieu of "Random" from now on in my setups. However, I will not be forcing that change on anyone else. I do not find it necessary or persuasive enough to implement.

Hosts do tend to random setups, but what happens when that setup becomes imbalanced? The host would likely change some of the roles or regenerate the setup, both of which results in a "handpicked" roles list. I do not believe they should be penalized for making the game a more balanced and enjoyable experience for everyone.

I can understand that you would feel less trusting of hosts who are not truthful about the randomness of their games. That is unfortunate, but the trust you lose will be replaced by the new trust you have in the balance of their games.

[SuperJack]

FFS FIREBRINGER.

+1 to your ever growing list of terrible ideas.

I'm going to create a completion of them soon. And Frame them.

[BananaCucho]

FFS FIREBRINGER.

+1 to your ever growing list of terrible ideas.

I'm going to create a completion of them soon. And Frame them.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SuperJack again"

[Cryptonic]

It's not a terrible idea, it's just not needed.

I mean, in a game that revolves around lying and deception, can you really trust what a host says

[MattZed]

It's not a terrible idea, it's just not needed.

I mean, in a game that revolves around lying and deception, can you really trust what a host says

There are only certain things a host could even reasonably lie about. For instance, having Millers (or worse, death-Millers) in a game where host didn't say they were possible in the setup is, well, bad.

[Cryptonic]

There are only certain things a host could even reasonably lie about. For instance, having Millers (or worse, death-Millers) in a game where host didn't say they were possible in the setup is, well, bad.

Lol yes, I agree

[Firebringer]

Its not even an idea, its called decency and transparency

Also lol at all the dereps, funny stuff.

I mean, in a game that revolves around lying and deception, can you really trust what a host says

Are you joking? Because that is ridiculous. I expect the host to be unbiased if he calls it "Random". He wants to do his own hand selected roles? Fine, call it "Hidden" or any other name I suggested.

The whole this is a bad idea is so stupid by you SuperJack, want me to pull up a quote on you saying that it should be called "Hidden"? You have contradicted yourself.


I honestly think you guys are trolling me. Like its baffling to me. Is this how Bruno snapped?

[Cryptonic]

How do you know if a game is random'd or not, though?

[Firebringer]

How do you know if a game is random'd or not, though?

I am a detective, I visited them last night.

You are right, I won't know. I heard this was going on and I am asking everyone not to do it. Everyone can read this and ignore it of course and continue doing it or perhaps no one was doing it and I am crazy.

I am not saying put this in as a rule, because it isn't possible to figure out who is actually randoming or who isn't I am saying "Hey guys, this is messed up. Don't do it"

[BananaCucho]

But its not messed up. When a host wants to host a game, they usually want the game to go a certain way that is balanced and fair but that is also fun. Why else would you host a game? No host hosts a game so that they can please the players, they host something fun that they had for an idea and want it to go well and put a lot of time into it hoping it goes as planned.

And yeah you're just arguing semantics and it's silly.

[ika]

And yeah you're just arguing semantics and it's silly.

^that

[Firebringer]

And yeah you're just arguing semantics and it's silly.

Ohh yeah? Well if I am silly. You know what that makes you?

Adorable.


Can I take a picture? I want to have a picture of a troll that is so cute and cuddly as you.

[BananaCucho]

Ohh yeah? Well if I am silly. You know what that makes you?

Adorable.


Can I take a picture? I want to have a picture of a troll that is so cute and cuddly as you.

Have you ever considered that just because people are disagreeing with what you say, that doesn't just make them trolls? Are you that closed minded to the possibility that you're overreacting?

Also, care to counter my point?

[ika]

Ohh yeah? Well if I am silly. You know what that makes you?

Adorable.


Can I take a picture? I want to have a picture of a troll that is so cute and cuddly as you.

hes not saying you yourself is silly, hes saying what you are doing is still. theres a difference there

pedit: god i wish i could rep right now

[Bruno]

butthurt thread

[Orpz]

Reminder to keep discussion civil. I reserve the right to nuke posts from orbit.

[DarknessB]

Knowing both Fire and Banana, let me settle this with some dueling quotes:

Fire, just because Banana doesn't care doesn't mean she doesn't understand.

Banana, trolling is a victimless crime -- like punching someone in the dark.

Have you ever considered that just because people are disagreeing with what you say, that doesn't just make them trolls? Are you that closed minded to the possibility that you're overreacting?

Also, care to counter my point?

[Slaol]

Ive never randomed what roles were in a game. Cryptonic has directly conveyed why thats fucking awful.

Anyone that randoms, and doesnt just random until theyget what theyd have picked if the picked is terrible.

I remember Appley fully randomed once, giving a mafia a Framer when there wasnt a Sheriff. This would have been nice wifom against town if it had been intentional and the setup created ANY fucking scenario for it to cause real confusion. Instead the Consig killed and the Framer wasted a night because he thought the host had felt any feeligs towards the game.

Have you ever played War?

Randoming in FM is terrible when it fails, and nothing but gimmicky when it works ok.

Roles should be randomed only in which players they go to though.

I used "Hidden", or just put the alignment.

[Stealthbomber16]

Reminder to keep discussion civil. I reserve the right to nuke posts from orbit.

Dang it I repped you a few days ago

[Cryptonic]

But its not messed up. When a host wants to host a game, they usually want the game to go a certain way that is balanced and fair but that is also fun. Why else would you host a game? No host hosts a game so that they can please the players, they host something fun that they had for an idea and want it to go well and put a lot of time into it hoping it goes as planned.

Exactly. Otherwise it's a waste of a lot of time.

I think Firebringer's opinion might change after he hosts a few games.

I don't think players need to concern themselves with how the roles are chosen, just that those roles are there and you need to beat the other team. Knowing a few random facts that may or may not occur in a game is shitty logic. No one will ever lynch someone because the host is known to have done something once or twice before. Host meta is crap, and you're not missing out on anything.

Anyone that randoms, and doesnt just random until theyget what theyd have picked if the picked is terrible.

Lol. I have done this so many times. "I'm gonna random this time!!" ..*randomize*..nope..*randomize*..nope..*randomize *..nope..*randomize*..nope..*randomize*..nope..*ra ndomize*..nope..*randomize*..

[BananaCucho]

Knowing both Fire and Banana, let me settle this with some dueling quotes:

Fire, just because Banana doesn't care doesn't mean she doesn't understand.

Banana, trolling is a victimless crime -- like punching someone in the dark.

Why you gotta put the quote on the bottom man?

[DarknessB]

Why you gotta put the quote on the bottom man?

Wow, this is a blast from the past -- we should revive this debate too!

[Quick]

OK, so if I have set roles that I am using, but I don't want the setup to be open, so how would I do that? In my game I used hidden town and hidden mafia because I thought people would understand what I was doing, but apparently there is some amount of controversy over even this.

[Cryptonic]

OK, so if I have set roles that I am using, but I don't want the setup to be open, so how would I do that? In my game I used hidden town and hidden mafia because I thought people would understand what I was doing, but apparently there is some amount of controversy over even this.

Saying Hidden is fine. Hidden can be Random.

Random can be non-random. niggas trying to host meta deserve to be punished, anyway.

[Brendan]

I think every s-fm I ever hosted I randomed the possible roles and players for the roles. The trick is not including useless/detrimental roles if you intend to random and to put them in their own categories so you're never unhappy with the results.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...3-SFM-Insanity
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...M-Manipulation

[Orpz]

Reminder to keep discussion civil. I reserve the right to nuke posts from orbit.

The original precedent :')