LvP Achievement!

[Firebringer]

We have a MvP achievement. It is now time for a new achievement:

LVP

The meaning of it:
The meaning if you can't tell obviously is Least Valuable Player. The polar opposite of MVP.

How to get it:
The most important is that it is awarded like the MVP achievement, by in game admin/mod.

In order to get it though you will need win the LVP contest and for that, here is the Criteria for it:

• You must submit replays of a player you think was the least valuable to the team.
• This player cannot be you. [This is not intended for you throwing games or playing bad]
• The player you submit cannot be actually intentionally gamethrowing, he must just be playing badly
• If a player submits you as the LVP you cannot submit another replay for someone else in the same contest round
• Only one replay per person per round

Rewards:
Winner of the LVP get:
2000 in game points
LVP in game achievement

Clarification:
The Winner of this Achievement is the person who FOUND the LVP not the actual LVP himself/herself.

I nominate myself as judge for all LvP contests.


This idea was previously given to me by DarknessB, all complaints on how bad it is should go to him.

[deathworlds]

The LVP in game achievement sounds fun.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I post my save here or this achievement is still a suggestion?

[Firebringer]

I post my save here or this achievement is still a suggestion?

Just a suggestion right now, hold on to those replays though.
I have high hopes for this to be implemented

[Orpz]

I don't want to promote bullying on the site. I know it's in good fun, but I can see this going 0 to 100 real quick

[Firebringer]

I don't want to promote bullying on the site. I know it's in good fun, but I can see this going 0 to 100 real quick

We could always make it anonymous, (well not really since we can go in the replays and see who it is)

When submitting players just give out: In game name, Role, and a basic summary of what the LvP Nominee did to earn the achievement.

[BananaCucho]

I think Orpz is right. This sounds like something that could take a bad game that a player might want to move on from, glorify it, and then alienate that player. Mafia needs more players to stay long term, not less

[DarknessB]

I see your point. Perhaps submitted descriptions would only list the player's in-game name, as opposed to the player's account name. The hope would be to highlight the player's actions as opposed to the name of the player. I doubt people would take the time to sift through 10+ replays to identify the nominated players themselves -- seems like very inefficient trolling, in terms of the time required and compared to actually playing in games. Ideally, this achievement would be more of a "blooper reel" contest as opposed to focusing on the players themselves.

I don't want to promote bullying on the site. I know it's in good fun, but I can see this going 0 to 100 real quick

[BananaCucho]

I see your point. Perhaps submitted descriptions would only list the player's in-game name, as opposed to the player's account name. The hope would be to highlight the player's actions as opposed to the name of the player. I doubt people would take the time to sift through 10+ replays to identify the nominated players themselves -- seems like very inefficient trolling, in terms of the time required and compared to actually playing in games. Ideally, this achievement would be more of a "blooper reel" contest as opposed to focusing on the players themselves.

I know more than one mafia player that loves to sift through countless replays as a hobby. One in particular is a bully indeed.

The idea sounds fun, but as a blooper thread where people mention silly situations they have been in. Giving out achievements for putting others down is pretty rude.

[Firebringer]

If you really want to avoid the potential for bullying all together we could do this:

-Players all submit the replays and give their descriptions through a pm to me (or whoever is the judge)
-I post here telling you how who has submitted me games and what role the player was and brief description of game.
-When a winner is selected I edit the replay to hide all mentions of the real players ID, and just give focus on game. This means only After the setup is finished and right after its announced winner is all that shows. [This then gets posted to youtube]

No one is singled out, and it allows us to have fun.

[SparkNuts]

I think it would be pretty funny if I had such a bad game it won this. Maybe the time I accidentally jailed and executed the dragon head as interr.

[Orpz]

I agree with BananaCucho that you should only be able to submit yourself for LVP. That way, you willingly subject yourself to embarrassment. Prizes can still stand for those brave enough to roast themselves.

[Firebringer]

I agree with BananaCucho that you should only be able to submit yourself for LVP. That way, you willingly subject yourself to embarrassment. Prizes can still stand for those brave enough to roast themselves.

I would like to do it that way, but I have huge potential problems with that.

If you have an achievement that expressly tells you that you are playing badly, then that potentially causes players to submit replays of themselves tanking a game on purpose, but acting as if you are trying the whole time. In order for that achievement

In essence, it encourages gamethrowing, which isn't the purpose of this.

DarknessB gave me a good example of potential harm:

dude, I'm going to lynch 4 town as marhsall
and then 4 town
next day
whoops
wow, I suck
not a gamethrow b/c I was trying

[SparkNuts]

Yeah I think its much better to not be able to put your own replays.

[SuperJack]

It's fun as a nice topic to talk about.

But an achievement for it, and a competition for it is just a terrible idea. and no right way to make it work.

[Firebringer]

It's fun as a nice topic to talk about.

But an achievement for it, and a competition for it is just a terrible idea. and no right way to make it work.

Elaborate on how it is a bad idea.

If its a nice topic, couldn't we transition for it to be in game achievement? We have several threads on the forums for players having bad play

"Stupidest Reason you got lynched" "NOOB OF THE DAY" I don't see how this couldn't be a fun addition to the game.

I see how the whole "bullying" could be a issue, but as I suggested how to make it truly anonymous what issue is there then?

[SuperJack]

Because you can't give a player the achievement and the points without looking like a bully.

Su're, if you really are desperate have a competition on the forum to find the worst play, go ahead. But for this sort of thing to be edited into the game is just wrong.

[Firebringer]

Because you can't give a player the achievement and the points without looking like a bully.

Su're, if you really are desperate have a competition on the forum to find the worst play, go ahead. But for this sort of thing to be edited into the game is just wrong.

So anonymous submissions, anonymous replays when shown to the public, the players names are never mentioned at all. That equals bullying?

By that logic all the threads we have that talk about how people made bad plays (which again there is a dozen) is bullying.

[SuperJack]

What Staff do. And what community members do, is judged differently.

[Firebringer]

What Staff do. And what community members do, is judged differently.

I see your point on this.

However I don't even think this is bullying at all, so w/e. We won't see eye to eye on this.

[Damus_Graves]

This could lead to bullying and I can guarantee that there will be people who rag on the submissions in a negative way. If we existed in a perfect world this idea would definitely work without a problem. The issue is that we do not live in such a place. I can think if a few members who wouldn't hesitate on a chance to rag on someone who submits themselves to this competition. Now, personally, I cannot agree to subject someone else to that potential flaming.

An example of what I'm saying is Archangel and Bruno speaking out against Clan Fl0w and their ambitions here.

[Firebringer]

This could lead to bullying and I can guarantee that there will be people who rag on the submissions in a negative way. If we existed in a perfect world this idea would definitely work without a problem. The issue is that we do not live in such a place. I can think if a few members who wouldn't hesitate on a chance to rag on someone who submits themselves to this competition. Now, personally, I cannot agree to subject someone else to that potential flaming.

An example of what I'm saying is Archangel and Bruno speaking out against Clan Fl0w and their ambitions here.

Damus, I think you misunderstand the OP. The suggestion is one player submits a replay of a person they think is the LVP the person who submitted it would gain the achievement if they won.

I said how you could make this completely anonymous so that no one is singled out in game for their horrible play (No player ID shown in a edited format)

I don't see how this is bullying at all.

[SuperJack]

So, you want to to reward people, for something they didn't do/achieve. That does not make sense.

[Firebringer]

So, you want to to reward people, for something they didn't do/achieve. That does not make sense.

Theres plenty of achievements in the game you can get by doing absolutely nothing.

[DarknessB]

Didn't the MVP contest give a Nomination achievement to the person submitting the winning report though? From that post:

SC2 Mafia MVP Corner

Nominating a MVP
Have you seen another person play the game so well they have a chance in winning MVP ?
You can now Nominate another player.
And if you Nominate a winning player, you win:

-1000 Points
-Nomination Achievement in game

So, you want to to reward people, for something they didn't do/achieve. That does not make sense.

[SuperJack]

And it was neverimplemented for said reason ^^

[SparkNuts]

People are too sensitive now

[yzb25]

People are too sensitive now

Yeah, I mean, even putting to one side the anonymous editing, does it really matter if a few people on the internet take the time to mock you for how bad in a game you once were at some point in the past? (bearing in mind we all started out bad at a game?) I mean, I don't wanna be too sticks-and-stones but, if someone decides to make it their imperative to troll you on the internet, you can always just block them. Starcraft 2 isn't really an ideal platform for cyber-bullying.

Anyway, I don't wanna be judgmental, but if your ego is so fragile that it can be damaged by people on the internet mocking your performance in a game, then those mockers are the least of your problem. I think we need to step back for a moment and think about, realistically, how many people will actually care about this in the long term.

[DarknessB]

That's how I see it as well. Some men (and women) just want to watch the world burn, and that's going to happen regardless of whether there's an LVP contest or not. In addition, there are a number of mechanisms to shut down harassment including blocking the person on Starcraft and forum staff removing harassing posts.

On your second point, the Internet / online gaming is full of trolls and angry people. I think it's an important life skill to learn how to deal with these irritating types. At least on the Internet, there's a block button -- you don't get that option in real life (family, school, work, etc.) so it's to everyone's advantage not to let mockery get to you. The more you respond / react, the more they have succeeded anyway -- trolls get very bored and usually give up when they don't get a reaction.

Yeah, I mean, even putting to one side the anonymous editing, does it really matter if a few people on the internet take the time to mock you for how bad in a game you once were at some point in the past? (bearing in mind we all started out bad at a game?) I mean, I don't wanna be too sticks-and-stones but, if someone decides to make it their imperative to troll you on the internet, you can always just block them. Starcraft 2 isn't really an ideal platform for cyber-bullying.

Anyway, I don't wanna be judgmental, but if your ego is so fragile that it can be damaged by people on the internet mocking your performance in a game, then those mockers are the least of your problem. I think we need to step back for a moment and think about, realistically, how many people will actually care about this in the long term.

[Damus_Graves]

Damus, I think you misunderstand the OP. The suggestion is one player submits a replay of a person they think is the LVP the person who submitted it would gain the achievement if they won.

I said how you could make this completely anonymous so that no one is singled out in game for their horrible play (No player ID shown in a edited format)

I don't see how this is bullying at all.

I would be much more persuaded to support this idea if it were done via PM system with a thread log for record keeping. No In-game Achievements.
The other Issue is that this might cause players to intentionally do badly to get this award.

[BananaCucho]

You guys can sit here and preach your ideals all you want - it doesn't change the fact that an idea like this could A - alienate players (this community needs to expand, not shrink any more), and 2 - promote game throwing (a friend could throw so his buddy could get it)

[Damus_Graves]

You guys can sit here and preach your ideals all you want - it doesn't change the fact that an idea like this could A - alienate players (this community needs to expand, not shrink any more), and 2 - promote game throwing (a friend could throw so his buddy could get it)

I already said that.

[DarknessB]

I throw in the towel -- you guys win in my mind. Fire might feel differently though, of course.

That said, let me just point out that Banana's logic could stifle any change to the game, no matter how good the idea is, because the logic is completely subjective in nature (don't alienate people and don't encourage game-throwing). Take the recent MVP contest for example:

1. Players who didn't win the MVP achievement could feel alienated that they were not picked and have no other way of getting the achievement until the next time the contest is run. Should Mafia really be making more achievements that can't be acquired via in-game conduct? Doesn't seem very fair to those who aren't using / aren't aware of the forums, or those who just didn't happen to get picked for the award. Also, we're talking about an achievement that is based on the subjective opinion of a judge vs. objective player actions. That seems ripe for disputes over which player's performance was in fact better. Definite alienation right there at least for some.

2. Moreover, parties of players could collude to make one player's performance look really good and submit the replay for the MVP contest. Potential encouragement of game-throwing right there (for the other players helping the nominee), especially with an otherwise unattainable achievement on the line.

Obviously, these points are completely subjective and strained, but you could easily come up with arguments against any recent change or proposal in the same way. Anything has the potential to alienate someone and most things with a reward associated could encourage game-throwing (so that others can get the reward). I just think the arguments aren't a particularly good reason to scrap the idea, but there seems to be enough people concerned that I understand if it doesn't proceed further.

I already said that.

[thedougler]

There's already a fairly active Noob of The Day thread going on which is similar to Firebringer's idea, but does not provide a points incentive to bully players or intentionally have your friends play poorly.

[Damus_Graves]

I would be much more persuaded to support this idea if it were done via PM system with a thread log for record keeping. No In-game Achievements.

To be clear. I did say that this change could persuade my support. >>

[BananaCucho]

I already said that.

I was agreeing with you.

And darkness there's a difference between alienating players by glorifying and drawing attention to how horrible they are at a game (they might be new and still learning) vs a player being upset that he didn't get picked for MVP. Players that post on the forum and willingly submit a replay to be judged against other replays are more likely to stay around and submit another replay. Players in this LVP contest would be submitted for poor recognition without even asking for it.

[DarknessB]

Sure, those arguments re: MVP were intended more as a thought exercise than a legitimate criticism of the MVP content -- any change or contest can potentially offend someone (it's totally subjective) and anything with a reward associated with it can potentially encourage game-throwing. My point had less to do with the MVP contest vs. the slippery slope of using "potential alienation" as an argument to quash potential ideas.

I was agreeing with you.

And darkness there's a difference between alienating players by glorifying and drawing attention to how horrible they are at a game (they might be new and still learning) vs a player being upset that he didn't get picked for MVP. Players that post on the forum and willingly submit a replay to be judged against other replays are more likely to stay around and submit another replay. Players in this LVP contest would be submitted for poor recognition without even asking for it.

[BananaCucho]

Except the slippery slope is a logical fallacy, not a way to prove a point.

[DarknessB]

I'm actually enjoying the logic sparring even if it's a bit off topic. I'd counter with fallacy fallacy -- i.e. even if slippery slope is a logical fallacy, it doesn't mean the conclusion in question (that we shouldn't discount ideas just because they might alienate people) is itself wrong. Also, the argument that just because people MIGHT be picked on --> people WILL be picked on is an appeal to probability. Especially with safeguards including everything being PMed to the judge, and no account names on the uploaded copy of the game, people aren't going to know who the LVP player actually was.

Anyway, I think the logical argument is more fun than the actual idea at this point, which we both agree isn't likely to be implemented.

Except the slippery slope is a logical fallacy, not a way to prove a point.

[BananaCucho]

Anyway, I think the logical argument is more fun than the actual idea at this point, which we both agree isn't likely to be implemented.

You sick bastard

[Firebringer]

Just want to bump this.

I think Super has a point that giving someone points for what someone else did doesn't seem totally fair.

I would still like to see this still as an achievement for player finding the LvP without giving away any points to the winner though.

Any support if we do that?

This would also help monitor bank hackers again like MvP does. I can keep a log of everyone who has earned the achievement to help find people who hack their bank for it.

[Bruno]

whats the point if mvp already does it

[Firebringer]

whats the point if mvp already does it

Because we aren't keeping the tightest record of MvP unfortunately right now.

#Spoiler

[Yukitaka Oni]

There's already a fairly active Noob of The Day thread going on which is similar to Firebringer's idea, but does not provide a points incentive to bully players or intentionally have your friends play poorly.

My thread v)o.o)>! (Notd) noob of the day

[Bruno]

Because we aren't keeping the tightest record of MvP unfortunately right now.

#Spoiler

wooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[BananaCucho]

Just want to bump this.

I think Super has a point that giving someone points for what someone else did doesn't seem totally fair.

I would still like to see this still as an achievement for player finding the LvP without giving away any points to the winner though.

Any support if we do that?

This would also help monitor bank hackers again like MvP does. I can keep a log of everyone who has earned the achievement to help find people who hack their bank for it.

Thank you, Firebringer, for teaching kids everywhere a valuable lesson: If things don't go your way, just keep complaining until your dreams come true.

[Firebringer]

Thank you, Firebringer, for teaching kids everywhere a valuable lesson: If things don't go your way, just keep complaining until your dreams come true.

How em I complaining? I am just giving ideas. And adjusting it based on feedback.

I have given reasons why I think this would be a fun addition to the game, I have heard why it shouldn't be in the game.

I disagree with all the reasons it shouldn't.

None of which are complaining. Can you point out where I am complaining?

[Bruno]

I think Super has a point that giving someone points for what someone else did doesn't seem totally fair.

good point

i move the notion that points are no longer automatically distributed at the end of every match, but rather a player submits a replay to here for review so admins may give out points according to in game performance

r u a vig who never shot once but town won? 2 bad u didnt get points cause u didnt participate

mayor who never had to reveal? NO POINTS

seems solid to me

[BananaCucho]

How em I complaining? I am just giving ideas. And adjusting it based on feedback.

I have given reasons why I think this would be a fun addition to the game, I have heard why it shouldn't be in the game.

I disagree with all the reasons it shouldn't.

None of which are complaining. Can you point out where I am complaining?

Its a quote lol

[SuperJack]

As part of the sc2mafia game? No. Lvp is not for that.

If anything it's for the forum. Something to have a chit chat about and sharing each others stories.

And the list of mvps that have been handed out is known. And tracked.

And. What bananacucho said is an accurate description of what your post is.