M-FM XXIV Civilization Gamethread - Page 23
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View Poll Results: PLAYER'S CHOICE AWARD!

Voters
9. You may not vote on this poll
  • 4pics1word/Noctiz

    1 11.11%
  • Piano Tiles/Ika

    0 0%
  • Bloons TD/Louiswill

    0 0%
  • Words with Friends/Titus

    2 22.22%
  • SnapChat/Banshis

    0 0%
  • Fall Down/Helios

    0 0%
  • iFunny/xRavenx

    0 0%
  • Candy Crush Saga/Bahkieh

    1 11.11%
  • QuizUp/Fontisian

    0 0%
  • Tapatalk/Gyver

    1 11.11%
  • Cut the Rope/MathBlade

    0 0%
  • Flappy Bird/ThinkLiveLife

    0 0%
  • Instagram/42shadow42

    0 0%
  • Temple Run/Fatalis

    0 0%
  • Angry Birds/Suzanne

    0 0%
  • Clash of Clans/Citrus

    0 0%
  • 2048/Apocist

    0 0%
  • Vine/Nicole

    0 0%
  • Kik/Gerik

    4 44.44%
  • Fruit Ninja/deathworlds

    0 0%
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Results 1,101 to 1,150 of 2203
  1. ISO #1101

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by 4pics1word View Post
    You mean one like yours where I lump all the obvious players together into one of four categories? I can do that.
    This is why I don't think 4pics1word is scum. This reads as a genuine reply to someone he's unaligned with (doesn't share a night chat).

    If this was faked, 4pics1word would be pretty strong at faking interactions/reads in general. I would expect scum with that skillset to be helluva lot more active to use that to his advantage. Verses having a total of 12 posts.

    That doesn't eliminate him from Doomsday, so I really want to see more content/activity, but I'd be very surprised if he were Warmonger

  2. ISO #1102

  3. ISO #1103

  4. ISO #1104

  5. ISO #1105

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Also I draw a desire for a mass role-claim to inexperience. Not a scum tell. No self-respecting scum would propose something that stupid. That point was brought out by Kik yesterday. Along with the argument of "Unless he is doing this on purpose to fool us" which I strongly disagreed with by saying that the "playing dumb" defense comes out as a defense. Not a play style.

    I personally have not read a single FM where a player pretended to be a noob and got their scum win as a result. I suppose I am just kind of an ass hole with a very high standard of what I consider a "Logical point"

  6. ISO #1106

  7. ISO #1107

  8. ISO #1108

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash of Clans View Post
    What do you mean Templar should be killed first? That makes no sense to me...

    Wahaho 23 users viewing this thread. Feel free to log in people :P
    I mean you proposed a list of players and an order that you think they should be lynched/verified in. (I say lynched/verified because that is how I read your tone although your words pretty much said killed)

    My question is why is Templar not only scum in your book- But the #1 scum out of every player in this game currently? What about him deserves this #1 scum award? My reasons for asking should be pretty transparent given my relevant posts so far today.

  9. ISO #1109

  10. ISO #1110

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Birds View Post
    First, hello to all.
    Second, I would like to agree with Cut the Rope's points regarding assumption of roles (Though not taking any out considmoration). We'll have more to go on after Night 1. Also i second your opposition to the waving of certain parts of the body on this forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Birds View Post
    Hello again. I apologize for the lack of much activity here so far.

    Clash of Clans... voting to lynch Candy Crush Saga because you can? So you're just wasting your vote? I can't think of a reason for a peaceseeker to suggest the lynch of a confirmed peaceseeker.. regardless of the knowledge that it would not happen.

    On Day 2 it seems most likely to me that Vine is scum, judging by past posts.

    <vote>Vine</vote>
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Birds View Post
    -vote Vine
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Birds View Post
    So far Clash of Clans and Vine are my top suspects for scrum. Cut the Rope is most likely town. I need to look some more at the others
    All 4 (but really, 3) posts by Angry Birds.

    @Everyone
    Quizup is unaligned with Words with Friends. Or tell me all that interaction second half of D2 was faked.

    Quizup is another player that can only be Doomsday Killer, if not town. Regardless of any other stuff you use to build your read

  11. ISO #1111

  12. ISO #1112

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Flappy Bird View Post
    I mean you proposed a list of players and an order that you think they should be lynched/verified in. (I say lynched/verified because that is how I read your tone although your words pretty much said killed)

    My question is why is Templar not only scum in your book- But the #1 scum out of every player in this game currently? What about him deserves this #1 scum award? My reasons for asking should be pretty transparent given my relevant posts so far today.
    That was an excerpt from my last will, it's what I would have suggested if mafia night killed me.

    That order was not a "#1 scum award", it was how I perceived our lynch order should be if I was dead and no PR actions etc. came to light

  13. ISO #1113

  14. ISO #1114

  15. ISO #1115

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Instagram View Post
    @Clash of Clans
    Oh I didn't think of Disguiser at all.

    I'd like your reads on the rest of the players / your opinion on my reads of them. Part of the reason why I scum-read you is because my gut is telling me I should be able to town-read you (like I did with Snapchat, Quizup, etc.) and yet you're nullish.

  16. ISO #1116

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash of Clans View Post
    Oh I didn't think of Disguiser at all.

    I'd like your reads on the rest of the players / your opinion on my reads of them. Part of the reason why I scum-read you is because my gut is telling me I should be able to town-read you (like I did with Snapchat, Quizup, etc.) and yet you're nullish.
    I have no idea how I'm nullish, I've been nothing but honest with everyone.

  17. ISO #1117

  18. ISO #1118

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash of Clans View Post
    All 4 (but really, 3) posts by Angry Birds.

    @Everyone
    Quizup is unaligned with Words with Friends. Or tell me all that interaction second half of D2 was faked.

    Quizup is another player that can only be Doomsday Killer, if not town. Regardless of any other stuff you use to build your read
    I agree with your thoughts on Quizup. (982, 962, 964, 966, 970, 971, 972, 976, 978, 979, 980, 950, 955, 899 --Unaligned posts as of page 34) I do not read this as busing.

    -vote Angry Birds

    I also agree Angry Birds needs to talk more. Take that as a measure of "I am very open to every idea" and I do recognize that you have been the only other player pressuring lurkers which is shown in post 818. This is not to say I think you are town but I would like to see us work a bit better together. I really want to understand your logic on Templar. Not because I think that Templar is town. But because I want to see your logic on him being scum.

  19. ISO #1119

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Clash of Clans View Post
    That was an excerpt from my last will, it's what I would have suggested if mafia night killed me.

    That order was not a "#1 scum award", it was how I perceived our lynch order should be if I was dead and no PR actions etc. came to light
    The question remains- Why was he first at the time. What did he do or say for you to peg him as scum/most scummy. To be blunt I do not let things go and this is a subject I will drag out.

  20. ISO #1120

  21. ISO #1121

  22. ISO #1122

  23. ISO #1123

  24. ISO #1124

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Flappy Bird View Post
    As I said yesterday I really do not see a reason to hang on to it. But I do see a lot of reason to hold that information once its used..
    I see reasons to hang onto it, for example I didn't have any idea who the warmonger killer would be and as a peaceful he would have wanted to attract a kill.

  25. ISO #1125

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Instagram View Post
    I see reasons to hang onto it, for example I didn't have any idea who the warmonger killer would be and as a peaceful he would have wanted to attract a kill.
    I kind of assume its just you and me burning this late night oil. Is there anything on your mind? I always try to take advantage of a lack of distractions when we could make some kind of progress. And on that note feel free to ask me for my thoughts on anyone or anything.

  26. ISO #1126

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Flappy Bird View Post
    The question remains- Why was he first at the time. What did he do or say for you to peg him as scum/most scummy. To be blunt I do not let things go and this is a subject I will drag out.
    Because of how immemorable he was. Like I think he posted more than Angry Birds, especially at the start of D1, but they pinged in my head as bad posts. And then nothing of measure later on.

    Same kind of thing with Fall Down, but I pinged him as less scummy/more nullish at the time of his posts

    If Angry Birds were scum, I doubt he'd have night killed me as I literally just called him out before day ended.

    I was less sure of 4pics1word because that one post to Words with Friends threw me off with it's nonchalant-ness

    Piano Tiles popped in a few times to say "hey discussion sucks bye,"

    Also I wanted more talkative scum reads to live longer than less talkative by that progression because less talkative should be removed quickly as more talkative can give interactions / prove towninessish

  27. ISO #1127

  28. ISO #1128

  29. ISO #1129

  30. ISO #1130

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Flappy Bird View Post
    @CoC. I hear ya. Thanks for the response.

    You seem to have a pretty solid plan in the works. Do you feel pressure voting will be effective on our lurkers or have we just hit a bad batch of players?
    I wouldn't say bad, but unless every single one of the scum is a hard-core lurker there's players that either don't post or are unable to at the rate a lot of us are going at. Ex: 3 posts by end of D2 is pretty bad

    My only concern right now is that there are more town in the lurking groups than predicted and it's throwing off everyone's attempts to solve the game, as it means someone gets a free-townpass. This is why people need to post more, it's like making a shadowy alley brighter. It's easier to tell whether the faint whispers of a shadow are tree branches or an evil scum sneaking up on people.

    Ridiculous example: Fruit Ninja is actually town gambiting, meaning someone else is researcher, which could domino changes in some reads

  31. ISO #1131

  32. ISO #1132

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    D2 WWF interactions:

    Aligned with
    Me Posts 863, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 872
    Instagram post 582
    2048 post 439
    Clash of Clans 956

    Not aligned with
    4pics1word post 991, 993, 881
    Quizup post 982, 962, 964, 966, 970, 971, 972, 976, 978, 979, 980, 950, 955, 899
    Clash of Clans post 956, 960, 383, 349, 353
    Cut the rope post 919, 689
    Instagram post 729, 644

    I do not believe that WWF and 4pics1word were busing based on the tone of their posts.
    I Really do not believe that Quizup and WWF were busing from the way they went at etch other. Way too much attention there.
    CoC and WWF could have been bussing
    Cut the Rope and WWF had some distinct distancing early on in the day. It almost look intentional. I could consider their interactions busing.
    Interactions with Instagram could be busing.


    My view on interactions is that scum players try not to interact. When they do their interactions are brief and do not draw attention. Its just enough to say later on that "I thought this player was scum, Look at this post where I said so". For whatever reason the town always assumes the scum are much more coordinated than they are. Very little is planned and shit just happens. As such players avoid giving in depth opinions on a player they are aligned with and aversion/hostility is much more likely than budding. Although as Quizup said- A "Chainsaw defense" is a very real thing. Players work together indirectly and jump on the wagon when they see its a lost cause. When they hit heavy its on a player the mob is after. Yesterdays lynch is a prime example of these factors.

    Hopefully this will be useful to someone.

  33. ISO #1133

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Flappy Bird View Post
    D2 WWF interactions:

    Aligned with
    Me Posts 863, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 872
    Instagram post 582
    2048 post 439
    Clash of Clans 956

    Not aligned with
    4pics1word post 991, 993, 881
    Quizup post 982, 962, 964, 966, 970, 971, 972, 976, 978, 979, 980, 950, 955, 899
    Clash of Clans post 956, 960, 383, 349, 353
    Cut the rope post 919, 689
    Instagram post 729, 644

    I do not believe that WWF and 4pics1word were busing based on the tone of their posts.
    I Really do not believe that Quizup and WWF were busing from the way they went at etch other. Way too much attention there.
    CoC and WWF could have been bussing
    Cut the Rope and WWF had some distinct distancing early on in the day. It almost look intentional. I could consider their interactions busing.
    Interactions with Instagram could be busing.


    My view on interactions is that scum players try not to interact. When they do their interactions are brief and do not draw attention. Its just enough to say later on that "I thought this player was scum, Look at this post where I said so". For whatever reason the town always assumes the scum are much more coordinated than they are. Very little is planned and shit just happens. As such players avoid giving in depth opinions on a player they are aligned with and aversion/hostility is much more likely than budding. Although as Quizup said- A "Chainsaw defense" is a very real thing. Players work together indirectly and jump on the wagon when they see its a lost cause. When they hit heavy its on a player the mob is after. Yesterdays lynch is a prime example of these factors.

    Hopefully this will be useful to someone.
    Just a note on analyzing interactions.

    Someone like Words with Friends is pretty confident of their ability to not get lynched -> hence why they post so often (psuedo town leader). In dialog concentrate more on the player talking to Words with Friends (ex: 4pics1word right before D2 ended). Scum Words with Friends can't control the replying player, so you'll get more bang from your buck looking at posts about Words with Friends than posts he made.

    Unless you know how many WIFOM levels he's using of course

  34. ISO #1134

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Warning long ass post

    First and foremost, I would like to apologize for being a bit of a dick to Vine. I did some trolling I usually do when I think I’ve caught scum to pressure them into slipping. I sometimes get a bit hyper and have to remember this is a game.

    Secondly, yes I acknowledge that I was a primary factor towards why the Serial Killer got two kills last night. For that I take responsibility. I was deceived and therefore deceived others. I can understand being angry and upset with me for the results. Looking back with a fresh set of eyes I can see the argument for the Fruit Ninja lynch more clearly. Vine was already on my scumdar and because of it I lead town astray. For the results I am sorry.

    I have been skim reading the thread for small 1-2 sentence posts most of which were Instagram's and I think one from 2048 that I responded to. Other than that I need to catch up on the thread especially anything longer than a few sentences. I did some general avatar examining to see how much Instagram/Quizup were posting but other than that not so much.

    These are the promised detailed scum reads: I currently have two scum reads from the end of day 2. I need to analyze what happened in detail for day 3. I know who died but I need to go deep into their roles etc and catch up on the thread. If anyone has anything in particular that I should look at first to keep conversations going let me know please.

    Now onto a more detailed version of my scum reads. Note: I have removed Clash of Clans from it. My Clash of Clans scum theory relied on Vine being scum. With Vine being a peaceful, some of the posts I was believing made them scum are pro town. This tentatively puts Clash of Clans as null, lean town but I need to read day three to see if I could commit to them being town or not.

    Instagram
    Instagram is a scum read for consistently promising items and not delivering on those promises:
    1) They promised to “investigate” me at the end of day 1. The only thing I’ve seen from Instagram that is remotely close to an argument was a copy paste of posts between myself and Vine saying I’m distancing. If I was distancing from Vine this would imply that I was bussing my partner from day one. Other than that it’s “obvious”. A townie would try to convince others of the argument.
    a. Add in notes from the thread: They mention an item in the last will would demonstrate I’m scum but then don’t say what it is. It looks like another vapid attempt.
    b. Likewise they use the “flip” as justification for why I’m scum. Did they not forget that they mentioned the confirmed scum?
    c. If you have information that can help town and you do not share it, withholding that information is scummy to me. The information that Instagram has I am not even sure exists as I’m town, but the town should be able to see the information to make that determination. I have nothing to hide, so if Instagram has a case bring it.
    2) They are not following their own logic of why the researcher plan is bad. Again, they promised to explain why the researcher plan is bad. Where is the delivery of such a promise?
    a. A good player I know of once said if a player suggests a plan but yet do not back it themselves, can it really be considered a good plan? And why suggest a plan that you yourself would not follow?
    b. This makes me wonder why Fruit Ninja isn’t Instagram’s top lynch today. It seems like they’d rather watch the town descend into chaos and just keep their vote on me for “consistency” rather than actually contribute anything to town.
    3) Their claim of peaceful combined with point 1 is fishy as fuck to me. I have not interacted with Instagram at all at night to my knowledge. (My feedback could be messed up by some shenanigans.} Since both of us together have not interacted, then what information could they have in their last will as a peaceful? This sends all sorts of alarms in my head.
    4) I have yet to see anything detailed from Instagram. (It may be in one of the longer post I’ve yet to read.) Two days without any detail and as much activity as they have had scares me.
    a. This goes back to point 2b. The emptiness of the posts is not all that helpful.
    5) They claim to read my posts and I repeatedly mention my gender and that I am a female. Yet as they continue to post things they cannot bother to get that simple thing right. At this point IMO it is clearly meant to try to antagonize me and I think it is a bit below the belt.
    a. I know this reason is kind of petty but if you are doing something clearly just to tick another person off without justification, it at least goes in the bad play bucket, if not the scum bucket.

    I really like Instagram as scum for the following reasons above.

    Quizup

    Quizup after the flip I think they could be serial killer, scum, or town power in that order. I don't think they could be peaceful though way too much evidence either framing them for something or actually doing something.

    The pro serial killer points are as follows:

    1) During day 1/day 2, when I poke them for arguments and/or reasons why they believe what they believe they disappear and/or don’t provide them and say something like just “trust me”. Their read was right for Vine which I give them credit for, but why couldn’t they tell me anything to back it. I didn’t get a decent explanation from anyone regarding why Vine was town and then having Quizup seemingly sheep onto it is odd. Even furthermore calling out Vine as a potential SK and not mafia either is a backdoor scumtell they know who mafia is or they don’t believe the statement they are making in the first place.

    2) Quizup specifically prodded Instagram about helping out the conversation. This to me looks more like Quizup/Instagram are unaligned or coaching. So both serial killer/scum points but as Instagram is not a town read to me it does not go in town points.
    3) They make a phone post asking to discuss if TapATalk and iFunny are scum. TapATalk dies the next day is this a coincidence? Words with Friends is killed after being a suggested scum read Quizup. Coincidence? It’s like the serial killer is following Quizup’s open scum reads. Once is a coincidence that may be just me overthinking. Twice requires a call out at least. Especially the whole “Prepare to die” thing…That’s pretty scary how accurate that was.
    4) When I was attempting to skim the thread on my phone, I noticed their avatar popping up more often than normal. I need to do more reading still to see if it has content. It’s like they are hot then cold, yes then no. {Katy Perry mood} A serial killer role has to thread the line between being towny enough to not get lynched but scummy enough to not get targeted by the warmongers so they can stay under the radar. By alternating days of usefulness are they trying to achieve this balance?

    The pro scum points are as follows:

    1) Points 1,2,3 of serial killer argument can be applied to being scum, either in part or entirety.
    2) The defense of Instagram with literal versus figurative. There’s not so much substance here. I’m not sure as to what I would be taking out of context and defending someone with an actual reason and not Vine/Clash seems a bit weird. It’s still empty but it is an attempt at a defense which makes me wonder why. What made my suggestion of Instagram being scummy worth an explanation?
    3) TapATalk and iFunny both being targeted by Warmongers. Again Quizup called both these people out specifically. In fact almost everyone called out as scum by Quizup is dying…This is very odd. Either frame job or neon sign. Don’t know which yet.

    The pro town points are as follows:
    1) Day 1 while not posting much they gained a lot of information for town. This benefit is pretty hard to ignore. They also have been posting a lot today maybe to make up for the sudden absence day two I don’t know.
    2) My gut says they are town which goes against this evidence. I’m considering this a townie point because my gut said Vine was scum and look what happened. I don't want to ignore my gut but it could be that my gut says that because they were being nice.

    That being said Quizup is more than likely scum to me.

    Until I read the thread and see where things are

    -vote Instagram

  35. ISO #1135

  36. ISO #1136

  37. ISO #1137

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Like, the investigate point against Instagram? That's the figurative vs. literal thing. They meant they were going to look closely at your posts.

    And your point 1 against me is just wrong. When you asked me for explanations Day 1 (the only time you've asked me for explanations), I gave very detailed ones to help you understand.

    On the Vine one, I got caught up with the idea of taking out the serial killer instead of picking up on the obvious towntells. Bad, I know.

    Oh, and do you seriously think I'd be obvious enough as a serial killer to shoot my openly declared scum reads? Give me a little credit. It's far more likely that one of the dlpers is sheeping me because they trust me reads and want me to look bad.

  38. ISO #1138

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  44. ISO #1144

  45. ISO #1145

  46. ISO #1146

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Instagram
    --- You cannot have me as the top scum read and then blatantly buddy me.
    --- Complimenting my scum reads case when you are the top scum read. ...Will you at least try to explain your behavior? This is so fucking weird. I have no idea what to make of this.
    --- Numerous players have commented that you are likely scum but yet the only defense I can find is that you say you don't look all that scummy TBH...*sigh* Why when most players have a scum read on Instagram since beginning/middle of day 2 are we going for Angry Birds now? I don't get that. I promise to look into it to see if they are scum but between Instagram's sheep I'm really nervous about Angry Birds lynch.

    PLEASE POST WHY THE RESEARCHER CASE IS BAD. IT IS TOMORROW.

    Summary after posting my case against you and your response --- three letters -- WTF.

    Quizup

    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post449829 – 435
    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post449865 -- 471

    Two times I ask for clarification, one is more subtle than the other. If you say someone is town and want me to examine somewhere else. I could have eliminated Vine as a scumspect much sooner and maybe not have pushed so hard if ONE person gave a decent defense of Vine. But instead there was all sorts of agreements when I pointed out bullshit.

    Oh and from day 3 --
    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post450524 --- Posts jokingly about the Doomsday killer being town MVP. Seems to be the same type of humor as scum shoot themselves. Is this a doomsday slip or a backhanded compliment to ones self?

    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post450527 – Is this because they know they are the serial killer?


    Your defense of not being the serial killer is WIFOM? ....Can you try SOMETHING towards a defense? This looks like trying to manipulate my mind versus attempting to explain why this occurred.

    Everyone

    You do NOT say oh so and so is town/scum I'll prove it later. That shit is scummy as fuck and the same reason I don't like Quizup asking me to just trust them. I don't fucking trust anyone's reads/info until explained.

    All

    I got done reading the vote count and it looks like Angry Birds is the top vote getter as of this time. I'll take a look at them in the morning in more detail as well as do a more detailed NK analysis to see from both angles. As much as I don't believe in the WIFOM defense from Quizup it still needs to be explored as a possibility. I had Angry Birds as a null read before day 3. I'm hoping between this and some stuff in day 3 will help. I'm not really liking how quickly this lynched formed when there was some agreement that Fruit Ninja was supposed to be a lynch to be strongly examined today. Something seems off about this.

    Plus having a confirmed scum in Words With Friends will make for some new if then else statements hooray! *Makes a note that if she breaks the game to give an honorable mention to Excel*

    Between that and who was on the Vine lynch I should have some more probabilities too Yay! Probabilities rock! *goes off into her mathy corner*

    For now I'm heading to sleep ya'll. Hopefully I'll have some indepth analysis tomorrow beginning/middle of the day.

  47. ISO #1147

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Because I was too lazy to do this earlier:

    Vine (10 [L-0]): Words with Friends, Cut the Rope, Kik, Quizup, Fruit Ninja, Temple Run, Angry Birds, Candy Crush Saga (Mayor)
    Clash of Clans (1 [L-9]): 2048
    Cut the Rope (1 [L-9]): Vine
    Candy Crush Saga (1 [L-9]): Clash of Clans
    Fruit Ninja (2 [L-8]): Snapchat, Flappy Bird

    This was the other reason why Temple Run pinged me, I totally forgot. Early vote on a town lynch wagon is a big sign of scum going for an easy mislynch. Note Angry Birds logged in just to throw his vote on as well

    Colors are mod-confirmed + researcher claim only

    If Angry Birds appears and gives a few decent posts I'd be willing to lynch Temple Run for not posting at all *hint both of you stop lurking hint*

  48. ISO #1148

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  50. ISO #1150

    Re: M-FM Civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Piano Tiles View Post
    Someone give me an update. I just got home and tired. I'll be up for like a half-hour then I'm going to sleep. Gotta work in the morning.
    Err you're going to get a chance to read some of the thread and post thoughts etc. right? It's going to make the game harder if you don't post or do anything except sheep wagons...

 

 

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