New FM role: Diplomat

[vornksr]

Thanks everyone for your comments on my idea for incorporating geography as an FM game mechanic. They were really helpful; I'm still working out some details for it, but hopefully you'll be seeing the end result when my turn to host comes around.

In the meantime, I'd like to toss another half-baked role out there. I know it's got some (perhaps fatal) flaws, so I'm hoping someone can fix it for me.

Role: Diplomat

Description: A visiting ambassador from a neighboring nation that wishes to establish ties with one of the local leading families of crime.

Alignment: Neutral

Win Condition: Survive until one mafia faction wins the game

Abilities: Can read both mafia night chats and post in them anonymously.

The basic idea is that mafia factions haven't yet won a game of FM. By having a diplomat who can help coordinate their actions, their chances could be greatly improved.

I foresee two major problems with this:

1) At some point, he'll have to chose one mafia over the other. At that point, he'll have every reason to betray the identities of that mafia, either to his chosen faction or to the town at large.

2) If the player selected to be the diplomat isn't very good, he could be more of a liability than an asset: if he accidentally drops clues in the day chat, he could end up revealing all of both mafias.


For problem #1, I can imagine a few solutions. One might go like this: once the diplomat decides which faction he wants to win with, he submits that choice to the moderator and "leaves the town" (i.e. dies, without having a chance to leave a last will). Presumably this would be accompanied by a prohibition on revealing mafia names in night chat.

I can't think of a good solution to #2, though. If you were on the mafia, would you think the risk was worth it? Is there anything that could be done to avoid the problem? The role is supposed to be a buff for the mafia, so if this is insurmountable it kills the whole purpose.

Thoughts?

[Ambient]

My humble thoughts. Feel free to rip apart

After the Diplomat has an accord with the Mafia he is siding with and submits its decision he signs a non-disclosure agreement with the other mafia faction. From then on he is forbidden to reveal the names of the other mafia team. (Optional) From this point he may receive +1 life against the non-allied mafia. The Diplomat should remain in the town, and attempt to use his influence to help steer the town away from suspected mafia.

Staying in town would also allow him to be...
1. Killed by Vigilantes that suspect foul play.
2. Killed by SK (& variants)
3. Witched Killers (ext..)

Possible objectives
Primary objective: Survive to see your Alliance win
Secondary Objective: Survive to see the secondary mafia team lynched

[Pedobear]

I think Ambient's suggestions are alright but heres a major balance suggestion:

The diplomat can only post six lines of chat per night, or for X amount of seconds he can talk with the:
Masons
Mafia
Cultist
OR
His alliance untill the night ends.

This prevents misuse of the role such as spamming, game throwing(per night, maybe? :P), and many other issues I don't want to get into right now.

[FalseTruth]

Great suggestion Vorn. I don't like the idea of an agreement of suicide in exchange for roles, though.

There is also another problem with this role that it shares with the Student and a little with the Amnesiac. The problem of, "The Snowball Effect".

Suppose 1 mafia member dies early from one of the teams. This will make the Diplomat feel like siding with the other mafia immediately. As things get bad for 1 mafia, it will only get worse because of the diplomat. The Snowball Effect will amplify the effect of one small mistake or unlucky night action.

We need to figure out some way to incentivize the Diplomat choosing to side with the losing mafia. That would be more beneficial for balance. After we solve this concern, I think it may also solve your concern of one mafia knowing all of the other mafia.

[Pedobear]

Great suggestion Vorn. I don't like the idea of an agreement of suicide in exchange for roles, though.

There is also another problem with this role that it shares with the Student and a little with the Amnesiac. The problem of, "The Snowball Effect".
Suppose 1 mafia dies early from one of the teams. This will make the Diplomat feel like siding with the other mafia immediately. As things get bad for 1 mafia, it will only get worse because of the diplomat. The Snowball Effect will amplify the effect of one small mistake or unlucky night action.

We need to figure out some way to make the Diplomat side with the losing mafia. That would be more beneficial for balance. After we solve this concern, I think it may also solve your concern of one mafia knowing all of the other mafia.

Diplomat can easily side w/ the losing mafia by communicating w/ them during the night and explaining to them that he/she is gonna help them & not to kill him & to defend him if put to trial or accused of conspiracy.

[FalseTruth]

/didn't read anything FalseTruth wrote.

He has no motive to side with the losing mafia. There needs to be a motive, or he will just pick the mafia that has the most members.

[Ambient]

Perhaps a time frame? An alliance must be forged before day X.

Perhaps make the primary objective: To assist weaker Mafia Team (at time of alliance) achieve victory.

[FalseTruth]

I propose this:

Win Condition: Wins when there are only Mafia members alive (regardless of which faction they are in).

He will never have to chose, and then revealing other mafia of either team is disadvantageous to him because he wants ALL mafia alive.

[Pedobear]

Perhaps a time frame? An alliance must be forged before day X.

Perhaps make the primary objective: To assist weaker Mafia Team (at time of alliance) achieve victory.

Would be to complicated to implant to the game, especially w/ the script size limit.

[Ambient]

Perhaps a time frame? An alliance must be forged before day X.

Perhaps make the primary objective: To assist weaker Mafia Team (at time of alliance) achieve victory.

Would be to complicated to implant to the game, especially w/ the script size limit.

Psst... This is for Forum Mafia. I agree with FalseTruth as well. That would be the cleanest way for this role to operate.

[Luna]

I like the theme, there's so many different ways it could be implemented though that we just need to strike a balance.

If you stick with the notion of 'siding' with a family then consider letting the Diplomat see both chats, but be unable to speak in them (I don't know if you'd be able to make both mafia chats only show anonymous posts to him so he doesn't actually know who the Mafia are). On the 3rd night the Diplomat's boss back home is getting impatient, needing a local network established to move contraband through the area with their blessing. On the 3rd night, at the latest, the Diplomat has to pick one family to 'introduce' himself to and establish an alliance - from then on he can only see and post in that family night chat. If he has to know the identity of the other family then some form of policed non-disclosure would be messy but necessary. Any Mafia win counts as his win. If one Mafia family kills a member of the Mafia at night, the Diplomat will automatically side with the family that *didn't* do the killing; he recognises that this is a purely internal affair that needs to be sorted out so there's no excuse to help the Town at all, but he also recognises that a war between families is bad for business, so he takes the side of the family that has been wronged to discourage this. This is still a fairly messy solution I admit, just trying to work with this allegiance idea.

The other possible solution is to not make him take a side at all. Let him alternate between night chats - one night he speaks to family 'x', next night family 'y', etc., and he can act as the go-between. The Mafia don't have to try to work together in any way, or trust him, but a good Diplomat will do all he can to make sure there's a Mafia win. He'll know the identities of both sets of families, letting him subtly help all the Mafia during the day by diverting attention away from them. By the end of the game if both families are still in it then his main objective is to make sure they don't make any mistakes which might let the Town win - while this could easily involve jumping on the side of the Mafia which has 4 people alive instead of just 1, there might be an angle he should take which involved taking the possibly weaker side because it's comprised of Mafia which are much less likely to be lynched. I dunno, there's lots of considerations to take into account.

I'd just like to steer clear away from a role which acts like a Mafia 'reserve', plugging in the gaps for the family which has a death first. If anything I think this role's original theme leaned closer to, say, EpicMafia's 'Mastermind' role, although of course a role that works WITH the Mafia not against it (though if he is a corrupt diplomat representing other criminal organizations then there could be some ulterior motives floating about...)

[Ambient]

Well the stakes are also much higher for him surviving if he publicly advocates for ANY mafia member. So when he speaks will require a delicate touch if this role was implemented.

I don't believe he would act as any sort of 'reserve' aside from the power of the vote. He can never kill, he can never become mafia. Unless he was a hidden role (which may be the only way for him to successfully operate).. He would have to be nearly silent on mafia activities during the day or risk being discovered.

[Pedobear]

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Is all I see. Anyways, I do like the concept and the portion of the role, needs some balance imo though. +1

[jaczac]

I like the theme, there's so many different ways it could be implemented though that we just need to strike a balance.

If you stick with the notion of 'siding' with a family then consider letting the Diplomat see both chats, but be unable to speak in them (I don't know if you'd be able to make both mafia chats only show anonymous posts to him so he doesn't actually know who the Mafia are). On the 3rd night the Diplomat's boss back home is getting impatient, needing a local network established to move contraband through the area with their blessing. On the 3rd night, at the latest, the Diplomat has to pick one family to 'introduce' himself to and establish an alliance - from then on he can only see and post in that family night chat. If he has to know the identity of the other family then some form of policed non-disclosure would be messy but necessary. Any Mafia win counts as his win. If one Mafia family kills a member of the Mafia at night, the Diplomat will automatically side with the family that *didn't* do the killing; he recognises that this is a purely internal affair that needs to be sorted out so there's no excuse to help the Town at all, but he also recognises that a war between families is bad for business, so he takes the side of the family that has been wronged to discourage this. This is still a fairly messy solution I admit, just trying to work with this allegiance idea.

The other possible solution is to not make him take a side at all. Let him alternate between night chats - one night he speaks to family 'x', next night family 'y', etc., and he can act as the go-between. The Mafia don't have to try to work together in any way, or trust him, but a good Diplomat will do all he can to make sure there's a Mafia win. He'll know the identities of both sets of families, letting him subtly help all the Mafia during the day by diverting attention away from them. By the end of the game if both families are still in it then his main objective is to make sure they don't make any mistakes which might let the Town win - while this could easily involve jumping on the side of the Mafia which has 4 people alive instead of just 1, there might be an angle he should take which involved taking the possibly weaker side because it's comprised of Mafia which are much less likely to be lynched. I dunno, there's lots of considerations to take into account.

I'd just like to steer clear away from a role which acts like a Mafia 'reserve', plugging in the gaps for the family which has a death first. If anything I think this role's original theme leaned closer to, say, EpicMafia's 'Mastermind' role, although of course a role that works WITH the Mafia not against it (though if he is a corrupt diplomat representing other criminal organizations then there could be some ulterior motives floating about...)

I think the thing youre suggestion, the "switching" sides is alot like the politician.

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

Instead of being forced by part of what the role requires to win or play, how about the moderators tell and talk to the Diplomat about the current situations and mainly have it work on his good sportsmanship or so. All of it by the player's and moderators' discretion and choice.

[TheJackofSpades]

The easiest way of solving this problem is for there to be an action pm of some kind to declare what mafia you are officially siding with, granting you the ability to know their identities in night chat. Until then you would see both mafia chats as anonymous. Whether or not this is possible in a forum setting, I do not know.

[vornksr]

Making the night chats anonymous would probably involve registering accounts such as "Red Mafia 1," "Orange Mafia 3" and so on, and requiring them to post in the night forums using those accounts. The individual mafia members would be told who their compatriots are via PM.

Would that make the mafia more or less vulnerable to Yayap-style stalking?


(SAS, as for your suggestion, I'm not entirely against it--I'm ok with thinking about mafia as something a little bit closer to an RP with a GM than a purely rule-based game, but I'm not sure if everybody is ok with that perspective. It could work for the diplomat as long as a troll doesn't end up in the role.)

[Ambient]

More vulnerable. If the user has to sign-in to different accounts, especially 'mafia' named accounts.. it would not be difficult to narrow down options.