Land of the free?

[Helz]

This is a little bit of info on what the government can do.

-Police can examine the contents of your smart phone without a warrant
The supreme court is reviewing two such cases (United States v. Wurie and Riley v. California). This is how it works. Police can search for evidence that could be destroyed by you and weapons without a warrant. They use this excuse to go through phones throwing your fourth amendment rights out the window. Unfortunately in the review they are not talking about the constitution at all. Their all focused on privacy instead of property rights. If these cases swing the wrong way just expect your phone to be subject to inspection any time a cop wants it.

-Local law enforcement as well as most government agency's can access your emails, social media message and cloud documents without a warrant.
Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA) permits this and quite a bit more.

-You can be held indefinitely in a military facility without charges
In the National Defense Authorization Act you could find yourself with no rights what so ever due to other peoples actions in a group you are associated with. Section 1021 expresses that nobody is exempt regardless of their citizenship. The act is interpreted as something that can happen by a presidential action but doesn't require it to be.

-The president can kill you without a charge, trial or evidence
This one is fun. 2001's Authorization for the Use of Military Force authorizes the president to pretty much have you executed. Will it happen? Probably not. That would be political suicide. But it is in his power. The DoJ White Paper explains how in very vague terms. https://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/se...hite_Paper.pdf
Whats really disturbing about this is that the process of deciding who gets killed is top-secret and even congress has no idea how it works.

-The FBI, NSA, and CIA can turn on your cell phones cameras and microphone or your computers web cam with no warrant.
There are a couple acts that allow this. I doubt this one is news to anyone.

I could probably go on and on with this stuff. If people want to know more I will dig it up. Pretty scary to know how few rights you actually have.

[AppleyNO]

At least our 3rd amendment rights are being respected.

[Helz]

I just wish they would leave my 2nd amendment rights alone..

[AppleyNO]

I just wish they would leave my 2nd amendment rights alone..

Oh no, now you can't own a full auto machine gun!!

[Apocist]

The 2nd amendment at the time was the ability to bear arms against your own tyrant government. The goal was not to demilitarize the populace or the government could roam free and do what it wants.

[kyle1234513]

solution - dont own phones. get a desktop pc without a web cam.

and as far as what they can do, we the people gave them that power in exchange for safety, and if at any point we value privacy more than the safety they offer we have the power (maybe not willingness) but the power to take that away from them and say no.

so im happy with all the seemingly fruitless laws that exist.

[Orpz]

solution - dont own phones. get a desktop pc without a web cam.

and as far as what they can do, we the people gave them that power in exchange for safety, and if at any point we value privacy more than the safety they offer we have the power (maybe not willingness) but the power to take that away from them and say no.

so im happy with all the seemingly fruitless laws that exist.

Is that you, Circlejerk? How would you feel if all of your PM's on this site were being read by someone? We give them power and money in exchange for safety and services; not our rights. The people and bureaucrats themselves would never have consented if we weren't given a guarantee of our rights, hence the amendments to the Constitution.

[Helz]

The point of this topic was how regularly our constitutional rights are totally thrown away. Maybe I should give better examples.

Btw- I can still own a full auto machine gun and in Texas I do not even need a permit if it is fixed placement and hand cranked : )

[sc2reboot]

So, I am a combat vet. I served in regular US ARMY, deployed as 13B 2006-2007 in Korengal, Afghanistan. I am a Christian, and as a veteran I have always justified my stand on liberty for all based on what I enlisted for, what people died for, what I risked my life for. After looking back on my time overseas and stateside, the good actions I took and the lives I saved, the hope I instilled in the hearts of many who were consistently held at literal gunpoint to due what another person said because they lacked worldly defense, all of it could have been done without ever enlisting at all.

Don't get me wrong, the men who died and the men who risk their lives all fight and die for their beliefs, but not all die in this way. An American flag doesn't make me just, Christ makes me good. A group of colonist write a big fuck you paper to England, and were supposed to pretend that makes us free. The constitution doesn't make us free, WE make us free. Government has proven time and time again that man is just corrupt, and I am not just talking about USA. It is EVERYWHERE, and the golden calf that is the constitution needs to be burned. If you REALLY want your freedom, then you already have it. Stop hiding behind a piece of paper, or complaining about the tyranny of the political branches.

Sorry if this upsets some of you vets, but it was the last string I had to let go of. Being an American veteran doesn't make me a bonafide hero, my actions did, and only to the people I could be a hero to. I bow before no man, only to God, and if this world chooses to persecute me because I know I am free instead of believe I have to fight to be free, then so be it.

[kyle1234513]

Is that you, Circlejerk? How would you feel if all of your PM's on this site were being read by someone? We give them power and money in exchange for safety and services; not our rights. The people and bureaucrats themselves would never have consented if we weren't given a guarantee of our rights, hence the amendments to the Constitution.

would not care. they can come in and toss my place, so long as they put everything back in my place and i wouldn't care, i give them that right to do it. our "rights" as you put them, are just inconveniences, not life altering events. congrats, some NSA agent read my PM's my texts, and my emails, and now hes going to ignore it because he found nothing at all. he wont ever go to some media site and say hey, this guy has XYZ secrets and he likes to do blah blah blah. they just dont do that, the people that we pick to do that job are trusted to do what they were meant to, find serial killers, terrorists, and bombers.

[Orpz]

would not care. they can come in and toss my place, so long as they put everything back in my place and i wouldn't care, i give them that right to do it. our "rights" as you put them, are just inconveniences, not life altering events. congrats, some NSA agent read my PM's my texts, and my emails, and now hes going to ignore it because he found nothing at all. he wont ever go to some media site and say hey, this guy has XYZ secrets and he likes to do blah blah blah. they just dont do that, the people that we pick to do that job are trusted to do what they were meant to, find serial killers, terrorists, and bombers.

The right to privacy isn't about hiding a wrong, it's about dignity and respect as a human being. How do you feel when you show your friend a picture on the phone and they flip through all your pictures? I agree that searches to find murderers are beneficial, but searches should only be carried out if consented to, or warranted, or strong probable cause.
Sure, they found nothing wrong on you. But you don't control the definition of wrong.

[kyle1234513]

The right to privacy isn't about hiding a wrong, it's about dignity and respect as a human being. How do you feel when you show your friend a picture on the phone and they flip through all your pictures? I agree that searches to find murderers are beneficial, but searches should only be carried out if consented to, or warranted, or strong probable cause.
Sure, they found nothing wrong on you. But you don't control the definition of wrong.

they wouldn't have searched through my stuff without reason. the way the law is worded is to give them the power if a super important moment comes along where they need it, they have it, they just dont search through some middle aged mans browsing history for the fun of it. and any pictures i have that are private i take with any camera i have printed and put in a photo album, (it gives it a certain effect) and anything thats just funny or a friendly thing is what i keep on my phone. nothing im not prepared to share at any time.

and as far as whats right and wrong, the majority has the power to change it if they want it, currently, the majority of the people believe that this is whats important and necessary to make the nation better, if it truly was upsetting the masses there would be far more rioting, petitions being made, and protesting by the people.

[Helz]

they wouldn't have searched through my stuff without reason. the way the law is worded is to give them the power if a super important moment comes along where they need it, they have it, they just dont search through some middle aged mans browsing history for the fun of it. and any pictures i have that are private i take with any camera i have printed and put in a photo album, (it gives it a certain effect) and anything thats just funny or a friendly thing is what i keep on my phone. nothing im not prepared to share at any time.

and as far as whats right and wrong, the majority has the power to change it if they want it, currently, the majority of the people believe that this is whats important and necessary to make the nation better, if it truly was upsetting the masses there would be far more rioting, petitions being made, and protesting by the people.

Someday a guy you gave power will abuse that power for personal whims. I bet I could be a cop in a few months if I wanted to. Maybe I pull you over and flip through your phone for nudies of your girlfriend and thats ok. Because there is a tiny chance you could be a terrorist.

[oops_ur_dead]

Oh no, now you can't own a full auto machine gun!!

You haven't been able to since 1986. Recent proposed bans are centered around "assault weapons", which are not the same as assault rifles (which are already banned) and is largely a made-up term meaning "scary looking rifle".

solution - dont own phones. get a desktop pc without a web cam.

and as far as what they can do, we the people gave them that power in exchange for safety, and if at any point we value privacy more than the safety they offer we have the power (maybe not willingness) but the power to take that away from them and say no.

so im happy with all the seemingly fruitless laws that exist.

You mind PMing me all your text messages and Facebook conversations? I won't do anything bad with them, I promise.

Even without that, keep in mind that nobody lives an innocent life. If the government knows everything about you, they also know all the crimes you've inevitably committed, and if they ever want you out of the picture they don't even have to resort to shady measures, they can just use the information they found to get you arrested and locked up. Nobody would ever question it, because as far as anyone can tell you just happened to be the one unlucky/stupid enough to get caught. It's fully possible that this is already happening, and we wouldn't even be able to tell. We just have to wait for the Snowden leaks to be fully released to see.

[Admiral]

Oh no, now you can't own a full auto machine gun!!

Don't tell me you drink the ghost gun kool-aid...

[AppleyNO]

Is a robot scanning your e-mails and text spying?

[Helz]

According to the ATF definition of machine gun is having more than one round fire every time the trigger is engaged. As such, a hand cranked Gatling gun fires only one round when the 'trigger' is engaged. So you can have hand cranked machine guns no problem.

Also you can take any AR and get a bump stock (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE). Essentially this turns your AR into a full auto machine gun. Add a drum mag and its just as good as a belt fed machine gun.

Neither of these require so much as a permit. And if you are a bum you could always just use your belt loop and fire your gun full auto that way. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD213VW6WjY)

Theres also part of your gun that you can file down to make it full auto which is undetectable unless they go ripping your trigger housing apart.

Finally you can go with the "Home made fire arm". If your gun is over (I think its 80)% composite and you build it from parts its considered a home made fire arm. No gun laws at all apply to these (Federally) so you can make it anything you want. They are legal to make and own but not to sell.

All gun laws do is make it a pain in the ass to have fun. They really do not restrict what you can own so much as how you go about it. On top of that criminals do not obey laws so passing said laws just restricts law abiding citizens ability to defend themselves. I could have every felony in the world right now and jump on Texas Gun Trader, make a few phone calls, and have pretty much any gun I want by the end of the day with zero paperwork.

[Cryptonic]

I think that if USA citizens have the right to bear arms, anybody should be able to be drafted into active combat at any time if they own a gun. Afterall, it does say citizen's are allowed to bear arms because a militia is nessecary to the security of the state... I mean, having a massive military only apparently can't manage to do it.

But anyways, I think it's pretty ridiculous that cops can check phones. But I really don't care about gov't having access to all my information. I don't have anything to hide, and it's not like the examine every single piece of information out there. I'm fairly certain all they use the information for is a paper trail after a key piece of information is found...

Like:

Omg, this guy was buying material to make bombs. Let's go through all the material we have on him and every single person he's been in contact with in his life. Then they follow the lead and find out what they want to know.

[Lazers]

Reminder that this exists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

[Admiral]

@ Cryptonic: We have the whole selective service thing. Most males are supposed to be registered with it at I believe 18?

Also, our volunteer Army is actually too big right now. You can probably google both selective service and Army manpower cuts for better details right now ad I am on my phone.

[Cryptonic]

@ Cryptonic: We have the whole selective service thing. Most males are supposed to be registered with it at I believe 18?

Also, our volunteer Army is actually too big right now. You can probably google both selective service and Army manpower cuts for better details right now ad I am on my phone.

Damn, selective service sucks lol Didn't know about that.

I was kind of exaggerating the situation in my post because it annoys me how everyone always complains about their right to bear arms being taken away, while the amendment already seems pretty much void because a militia isn't required for national security anymore.

[Bruno]

Is that you, Circlejerk? How would you feel if all of your PM's on this site were being read by someone? We give them power and money in exchange for safety and services; not our rights. The people and bureaucrats themselves would never have consented if we weren't given a guarantee of our rights, hence the amendments to the Constitution.

They already read PMs.

Also, who gives a shit if someone watches you on webcam or listens to your microphone lol

THEY HEAR ME BEATIN MEAT O LAWD

Technically the United States isn't even a democracY anymore.

[AppleyNO]

@ Cryptonic: We have the whole selective service thing. Most males are supposed to be registered with it at I believe 18?

Also, our volunteer Army is actually too big right now. You can probably google both selective service and Army manpower cuts for better details right now ad I am on my phone.

Every male between 18 and 25 have to register with the selective service. If we call up a draft, the amount of people we need will be randomed out of every 18 to 25 year old.

The age ranges change as time goes on.

[Helz]

the amendment already seems pretty much void because a militia isn't required for national security anymore.

I disagree. Our government is all about checks and balances. The ability for the people to create a militia is a safeguard against enslavement to the government. If the political system breaks and the next Hitler comes into power the peoples ability to form a militia ensures protection. When the government takes that away it is saying "You do not need to protect yourself from me". Checks and balances are what protects the poor from the rich. Those with power will always strive to attain more power and it is the powerless who pay for that power.


"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.
If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both." -Benjamin Franklin

[Orpz]

They already read PMs.

Also, who gives a shit if someone watches you on webcam or listens to your microphone lol

THEY HEAR ME BEATIN MEAT O LAWD

Technically the United States isn't even a democracY anymore.

I care more about the fact that they're listening in, not what they're listening to. Especially if it's my personal property, then I should have a right to feel safe and have privacy as a citizen. If it's because they really suspect me of something, I don't see why they can't get a warrant with probable cause and then search me legally.

[oops_ur_dead]

I don't have anything to hide

But you do! I'm sure you've tried illegal drugs at some point in your life. Maybe you've even done something like shared a blunt with a friend. Now the government can charge you with possession and distribution of illegal drugs. Sure, sharing 1g of weed with your buddy isn't really much to convict a person on, but who says it has to be 1g? After all, if we know the government is spying on us, then who's going to question what they collect? 1g can easily become 10g, and then you've got a case.

Now, of course you can't do this for everyone or you'd be locking everyone up. But that just makes it even more dangerous. One day an automated system is looking through your Facebook messages and notes that you've been far too critical of the current government in power. Can't have that, not only will your vote against the government hurt them but your conversations can promote the same kinds of ideas to other people. So they look through and, fair enough, find evidence of you texting a friend about selling a small amount of weed a short while ago to him as a quick favour. They use this as a basis for a warrant, search through your house, find more weed and charge you with intent to distribute, and lock you up for 10 years. Nobody would ever find out why you were the one arrested and not the countless other people who have done the same, they'd just assume you were careless while the rest weren't. In fact, this could easily be happening today, and none of us would ever know. This can happen with other things, of course, not just illegal drugs. Pirating software/music is another easy one to convict people on, or at least ruin their lives to the point that nothing else becomes relevant.

And before you dismiss this as paranoid conspiracy theories, just remember that not only 2 years ago the idea that the governments were looking through all our emails and online profiles was thought to be on the edge of insanity. It's difficult to say to what lengths our governments are willing to go to to protect their interests.

[Apocist]

But you do! I'm sure you've tried illegal drugs at some point in your life. Maybe you've even done something like shared a blunt with a friend. Now the government can charge you with possession and distribution of illegal drugs. Sure, sharing 1g of weed with your buddy isn't really much to convict a person on, but who says it has to be 1g? After all, if we know the government is spying on us, then who's going to question what they collect? 1g can easily become 10g, and then you've got a case.

Now, of course you can't do this for everyone or you'd be locking everyone up. But that just makes it even more dangerous. One day an automated system is looking through your Facebook messages and notes that you've been far too critical of the current government in power. Can't have that, not only will your vote against the government hurt them but your conversations can promote the same kinds of ideas to other people. So they look through and, fair enough, find evidence of you texting a friend about selling a small amount of weed a short while ago to him as a quick favour. They use this as a basis for a warrant, search through your house, find more weed and charge you with intent to distribute, and lock you up for 10 years. Nobody would ever find out why you were the one arrested and not the countless other people who have done the same, they'd just assume you were careless while the rest weren't. In fact, this could easily be happening today, and none of us would ever know. This can happen with other things, of course, not just illegal drugs. Pirating software/music is another easy one to convict people on, or at least ruin their lives to the point that nothing else becomes relevant.

And before you dismiss this as paranoid conspiracy theories, just remember that not only 2 years ago the idea that the governments were looking through all our emails and online profiles was thought to be on the edge of insanity. It's difficult to say to what lengths our governments are willing to go to to protect their interests.

It is actually not legal to use new information taken into possession by the authorities to convict someone UNLESS there was a prior warrant to obtain information for suspicion of said crime.

Currently dealing with a court case on such a event and the authorities found evidence of a separate issue. The courts seem to be unable to use the evidence because there was no warrant for it.

Loopholes can be nice

[oops_ur_dead]

It is actually not legal to use new information taken into possession by the authorities to convict someone UNLESS there was a prior warrant to obtain information for suspicion of said crime.

Neither is mass surveillance like this but it's being done anyway.

[Helz]

It is actually not legal to use new information taken into possession by the authorities to convict someone UNLESS there was a prior warrant to obtain information for suspicion of said crime.

Currently dealing with a court case on such a event and the authorities found evidence of a separate issue. The courts seem to be unable to use the evidence because there was no warrant for it.

Loopholes can be nice

I would love a reference there. I hope what you are saying exists on a federal level but I doubt it. I really should just spend 10 mins of my precious time and post more references of civil rights violations.. Im just going to Yolo this and blame it on the alcohol.

[Nick]

would not care. they can come in and toss my place, so long as they put everything back in my place and i wouldn't care, i give them that right to do it. our "rights" as you put them, are just inconveniences, not life altering events. congrats, some NSA agent read my PM's my texts, and my emails, and now hes going to ignore it because he found nothing at all. he wont ever go to some media site and say hey, this guy has XYZ secrets and he likes to do blah blah blah. they just dont do that, the people that we pick to do that job are trusted to do what they were meant to, find serial killers, terrorists, and bombers.

1. Holding views against state-sanctioned policies? They know! Kiss your well-deserved government job/promotion good bye.
2. I hope you don't end up as porn material for some agents.
3. Company secrets? Not anymore!

Then again spying is really useful for:

1. Blackmailing foreign leaders
2. Undermining international negotiations
3. Barring entry of "anti-American" foreigners
4. Information theft, espionage and sabotage
5. Identify dissenters to nip revolution at the bud

Spying is essential for national security! East Germany Stasi should be emulated.