new role i thought of.

[Ace]

I tried to ask it in 'answer hall', but I did not get a reaction. I would like to ask one of the mods if they could implent it. Or atleast what they think of it.
So if anyone knows how to contact them or what you think of this new role, then please enlighten me ^^.




'It sometimes frustrating that you know you will be lynched. You just know you cannot talk your way out of it or you have noobs in the game and random-voters.
Wouldn't it be nice then, if there was still a chance. Still some hope that you won't be lynched.

My idea for new role comes from one of my favourite movies:
Devil's advocate.


So the new role is called devil's advocate.
And his ability is that he can check once (or maybe this can be customized up to 3 times) the votes during a trial and switch them.
So if 3 people voted innocent and 6 voted guilty. It will be changed to 6 innocent and 3 guilty voters. Or vice versa.
This could be a nice dynamic I think. I have asked some friends and random players and they liked it the idea of it.

I just don't know if devil's advocate should be neutral, town, triad or maffia. Don't know what would be the most fun or balanced choice. But still the idea of such
a mechanism can be fun and lead to dynamic trials and conversations.


Thanks in advance. "

[Ganondorf]

This can't be a role because lynching is the one way the town can control their destiny. This role would take that away, and lynching would become way more difficult than needed because people would be paranoid (at least with a jester, it's simply a matter of "are they a jester or not?"). Also, there would be no balanced way to implement this.

[Ace]

Not true at all.

It can help the game against noobs and randomvoters.
This devils' advocate can be a town people. Who can actually save a sherrif or something. And ofc he can only do it once or something. So it would be that much of impact.
How many times hasn't lynching people actually brought doom to a town?

[Hypersniper]

NOOOOOOOOOO OP

[Ace]

seriously come with arguments or improvements

I bet you would have said jailor is op aswell if it wasn't in game already

[louiswill]

You have a good amount of experience already.

Thus, if you free a great pressure because it is obvious you are lying at your point of view.

I have past that phrase already, though the phenomenon constantly occurs.

Remember, no one can Lie out of teeth freely, unless the one itself can not identify what is truth.

In most mafia game, mafia suppose to talk their own way out about 3 times in order to win.


To be honest, so far, all voting manipulating roles are turned down. I like this role idea.

[kyle1234513]

this shouldnt be added because games dont last long enough and changing even a single vote outcome can have a massive effect on the game, ie 3v4 (this is frequent occurrence, i estimate maybe 1 in 10 games this happens), change it once, you guarantee that the scum will win.

you would need a much larger and longer lasting game for this to be an ok role.

because generally games last 5 or 6 days, with no lynch on the first day, and the last day heavily favoring one team already. so that leaves 3 or 4 crucial lynch days, changing one of those massively alters the end result, in addition mayor reveals on stand, everyone votes innocent, mayor dies.....

[Helz]

The idea sounds fun as hell but I don't know how viable it is

[Damus_Graves]

No. This is my opinion.

As a Town Player I am already counting down the days till majority is changed from the control of town to the control of scum or other oppositions. Comparing this to the numerous leavers, trolls, afkers, skypers, hackers, fail sheriffs, the abundance of mafia roles, the possibility of a cult, the constant kill pressures, and then trying to convince a lobby full of people to vote one way or another things get quickly out of hand if something winds up going wrong. Adding in a role that can switch up a lynch vote, the one thing town truly needs to be effective in every single scenario, makes for not only a frustrated player but a resentful one.

"Why the actual fuck would this bullshit mods put in this absolutely ridiculous role? Seriously after crier, and Marshall, and the oppressive second mafia this shit happens to the game? Screw that I'm never playing this shit game again."

I can easily see this reaction occurring much more often with a role like this. No matter what side this role is placed on the only person that comes out on top is the player who gets the role itself, and even then with the probability that he gets flamed hard makes it a lose in my book. This does not make for a good role addition.

The effort is commendable but the finalized results are just lacking in to many areas to effectively give this role its time in the spotlight. When you want to make a role to be put into a game that shines when players plan together you gotta consider how it effects the roles already in the game, the player base itself, and the mechanics/core of the game as well. In Mafia it is all about the team-play and cooperation. There really isn't a lot of room for lone wolves or solo operatives and that is primarily what a role like this would be. I suggest going back to the drawing board with these things in mind and maybe trying out something new later on.

Does this help out at all?

[Ace]

Hmm interesting. Well that can simply be avoided by allignment and goal of the devil's advovate.

For example think about a this scenario:
a neutral role called the devil's advocate with the goal of saving 1 innocent from being lynched (aka survivor, jester or town).
This can help the town and even prevent a scenario where the town has to be effective in every single scenario.
Now the town can make a mistake without getting into a state where cult or mafia have a bigger vote in the voting (bcs they are less divided and bcs they only like down by 1 in respect to town).

So yeah it is way too early imo to dismiss this role. We haven't even stated his allignment nor his goal. Just his name and power ;-).

'Don't fear change. Change is progress. Don't be the one that prevents us from having internet'

[Gyver]

I would argue that it is simply too much power in 1 role. You are basically giving someone complete control over at least a single lynch. No one should have that power. Even the mayor only gets 2 extra votes.

I would think that to be fair this role should only be able to change one persons vote per day.

Maybe this:
Choose another player at night. The next day, that player will be forced to vote the way you vote.

Someone should probably be informed of vote manipulation. Either the whole town being informed that X players vote was not his own. Or that player himself being told that his vote was overridden by the devils advocate.


If implemented that way I might actually support it as a mafia role. Even then though it might be too powerful. It would turn a 3 town vs 2 mafia day, into a mafia majority day.

[NotCurator]

This role sounds like a really interesting addition. I definitely think it could be added just because it sounds like a really cool role.

Just add it as a possibility for custom saves and let people mess around with it, you don't have to add it to the sotp or anything. This also gives people the possibility to see how balanced it is.

I imagine it could be balanced if it weren't included in any of the random categories, so you don't have to costantly suspect if there is a Devil's Advocate, you know if there's one in the setup.
If that still doesn't suit you, you could try making it alligned to town, so there's no way the mafia can save the godfather or anything like that.

No hurt in trying what sounds like a cool dynamic.

[Helz]

I agree with Gyber. His logic is very sound.

I wouldn't mind seeing something of this nature in a S-FM if anyone is up to it though.

[louiswill]

I agree with Gyber. His logic is very sound.

I wouldn't mind seeing something of this nature in a S-FM if anyone is up to it though.

Right, but you probably have do design and host your own.

Unfortunately, a lot of fun roles in a same game may require special mechanic to balance their powers.

----------

If you ask me how to balance this idea, I would make it side with town, give it a new name so it is more town friendly.

I do not think it is more OP as a town, because it is as blind as other none-investigators.

And if you make everyone vote as you want on a critical trial,

you lose to chance to find out scums.----A Lot of people find scums more from vote log rather than investigative roles.

A Messed up voting system will only damage town,

As a shitty mayor can easily wreck whole game for town.

[Citrus]

Right, but you probably have do design and host your own.

Unfortunately, a lot of fun roles in a same game may require special mechanic to balance their powers.

----------

If you ask me how to balance this idea, I would make it side with town, give it a new name so it is more town friendly.

I do not think it is more OP as a town, because it is as blind as other none-investigators.

And if you make everyone vote as you want on a critical trial,

you lose to chance to find out scums.----A Lot of people find scums more from vote log rather than investigative roles.

A Messed up voting system will only damage town,

As a shitty mayor can easily wreck whole game for town.

I'd also add, it'd end up working as a free confirmed town once you use it, at the least

[louiswill]

I'd also add, it'd end up working as a free confirmed town once you use it, at the least

Definitely if town want to know who messed themselves up, lol.

Come to think of it, the role's ability is about reversing a lynch vote ratio,

it is a town then it will be only useful in 3 cases:

1. Lynch a Suspect

2. Save a Town

3. Anti-Cheaters


Exclude 3 from discussion because it is....oh well, I think you all understand.

1 and 2,

First one require highly precised identification for the user.

Second one require a less precised identification for the user.

Suppose a game run 8 days, with 10 times votings, and this ability is allowed for once only.

For 1,
@user need to find criminals before investigators/sheriffs
@user has to be sure that the criminal will slip away from the trial

For 2,
@user need to trust a town before mafia kill it
@user has to be sure this town gonna get lynched.

Both cases imply a huge backfire chances in first 4 days, when good people are still alive and voting responsibly.

In the middle of game, there are critical voting which will decide which side retain majority.

This is when this role is most useful but also if it backfires, OWNed.

due to the direct effect that let town down,

but more, a messed up critical voting will causing distrust

At the last part of a game,

It definitly gonna work out when Mafia number>= town number,

which actually the town is pretty much 80% in graveyard beyond save

except if they had a killer role left, oh and jailor can not kill if there is a lynch, LOL.

I don't think it is that OP anyway.--plus if there is one of this role, there will be less sheriff, veteran, jailor, invest....etc.

You can always throw this role in town government to prevent mayor shows up.

Mayor is the one really has full control. This role will have trouble to even make trial happens.

[Ace]

@gyber
I don't think it will be too powerful. You talk about it being more powerful than Mayor.
But don't forget Mayor has power to put someone for trial. This devil's advocate only has power to save someone on a trial.

So Mayor has more power, because the 'extra votes' he has means always directly being put up for trial and being put up for trial means many times being lynched. Mayor has kinda the power to decide who will get killed. Devil's advocate only has power to save someone that is either guilty or innocent (depending to who the advocate belongs to) that was decided by other to be lynched.
If hope you get what I mean.

But sure you could always change the power of the advocate and balance it. I still think he should have the power to swap all votes but maybe you are right and 1 or 2 votes should be the maximum amount he should be able to swap.

@louiswil
I do think you make a good case.
Maybe the advocate should have the ability to when he uses his ability to see what people vote so he knows what effect the swap will have. I even thought about him seeing the role of the person and the votes that have been given, but I think that would be too powerful.

I think it really depends on who he is alligned to. If he belongs to mafia then maybe he shouldn't have power to see what people voted, because he knows who the mafia roles are and who they belong 2. So if his godfather is put up on trial then if he could also see the votes, he would be bit too strong. Then he would know if he should swap and would always be able to save the godfather.

But if advocate belongs to town he should be able to see what people voted so he can know what effect his swap will have (will it save or kill the person). Of course he can only see what people vote if he activates his ability.


What about this:
-he belongs to town and can see what people voted if he activates his ability. So he knows if he should swap or not and what the effect will have. And we could then implement that if he activates his ability to see what people voted. He will have used up his powers even if he didn't use that moment to swap. He may not have used the swap then because the outcome was in line with his judgement. But that will still make him unable to use his ability again. Just like veteran can't use his stay up ability again even if he didn't kill anyone with it. Role name: advocate
-Then when he becomes a cult his name will become devil's advocate and he will have same ability but he will loose the ability to also see what people voted. So then if a fellow cult is put up for trial he doesn't know if the swap will save him, but rather kill him.

[Cryptonic]

What's the point of the role? How does it win?

How does altering votes help it achieve it's win condition?

[Ace]

Like I said earlier it depends on his allignment.
If he belongs to town: town should survive and with his ability he can help achieving that goal
same goes for he belongs to mafia or triad.

But if he is a neutral character then you could think of this condition:
Prevent an innocent person from being lynched or prevent guilty person from being lynched.

Just like the jester or executioner it can be that easy.

[Cryptonic]

I don't think this works as either a Mafia nor a Town role.
If it's a town role, it's either going to go against what the majority of town wants. If it stays alive long enough to change all Mafia guiltys to innocent, then the Mafia can just revote.

If it's a mafia role, then it'll just be extremely OP and cause everyone not on their team to die.

If it's a neutral, I don't think making someone inno & guilty is hard, I mean just use your ability twice and you win? Seems kind of easy.

How would a role like this change how people play the game?


edit: I can see a role like this working as a Neutral, it will just require a lot of changes to make it compatible and enjoyable to play. It needs to have some sort of impact on how people act during the game. Also, I don't think this role should ever be able to see who voted for what. It should just have an ability that swaps the votes. The role should never be able to know the outcome before using the ability.

[Ace]

I do appreciate that you react and give your opinion. But please could you read the previous posts first.
Because many of the things you say, will not happen with this role.

For example this point of you:
'If it stays alive long enough to change all Mafia guiltys to innocent, then the Mafia can just revote.

If it's a mafia role, then it'll just be extremely OP and cause everyone not on their team to die.'

We already stated that this advocate can only use his ability limit times. Like maybe even only just 1 time. Just like a Mayor can't use his ability the whole time.

[Cryptonic]

I do appreciate that you react and give your opinion. But please could you read the previous posts first.
Because many of the things you say, will not happen with this role.

For example this point of you:
'If it stays alive long enough to change all Mafia guiltys to innocent, then the Mafia can just revote.

If it's a mafia role, then it'll just be extremely OP and cause everyone not on their team to die.'

We already stated that this advocate can only use his ability limit times. Like maybe even only just 1 time. Just like a Mayor can't use his ability the whole time.

I know. What I'm saying has nothing to do with how many times it can be used. Mafia being able to control lynches when they don't have majority = Extremely OP, even if it's just a one time ability. Town being able to swap votes is only useful if Mafia has a majority, but by that point, the ability is useless for town and will just get in the way, regardless of how many times it can use it's ability.

[Gyver]

I believe this role cannot be a town role because it takes away the day power of every other town. If the mayor is stupid, the rest of the town can still outvote him.

I also believe this role cannot be neutral benign. Meaning he has to side with mafia or other neut evils/killers. If he needs to get a town saved then what makes him different than a town. If he needs to get a town lynched, he is just a powered up executioner. If he has to get a bad guy lynched how is he any different than town. The only option is to save a bad guy from a lynch. Next, if he only has a one shot ability, if he guesses wrong on if someone is a bad guy he lost. He can not win because he can not flip a vote again in the future. No other role has the chance to lose when they use their ability. If he can use his ability more than once he absolutely destroys town day time power.

Also, even if it can only be used once, you are taking an entire day lynch away from the town. Unavoidable.

[louiswill]

I believe this role cannot be a town role because it takes away the day power of every other town. If the mayor is stupid, the rest of the town can still outvote him.

I also believe this role cannot be neutral benign. Meaning he has to side with mafia or other neut evils/killers. If he needs to get a town saved then what makes him different than a town. If he needs to get a town lynched, he is just a powered up executioner. If he has to get a bad guy lynched how is he any different than town. The only option is to save a bad guy from a lynch. Next, if he only has a one shot ability, if he guesses wrong on if someone is a bad guy he lost. He can not win because he can not flip a vote again in the future. No other role has the chance to lose when they use their ability. If he can use his ability more than once he absolutely destroys town day time power.

Also, even if it can only be used once, you are taking an entire day lynch away from the town. Unavoidable.

I support this role to be town for same reason, it screws town.

If it is in anyother faction, it will still screw town.

Therefore, this role has to be town to make its damage to town the least.

If you ask me how does this role help town then?

Well, prevent day 1 lynch from executioneer?LoL

[Helz]

This role could only be town. Anything else is broken. As stated by many people in many ways the mechanic is just too powerful to be a part of the SC game.

[louiswill]

I do hope PO host a Small Forum Mafia to see how terrific it could be though.