Calling all mods. Interesting information a foot.

[maccabbe]

After punishing a player, influencing his ability to play a game more than a watchlist, for no punishable reason, Raptorblaze decides it is a good idea to close the thread prematurely. Why?

[Mateo]

this seems like something for cj not maf discussion

[maccabbe]

This seems like something for mafia player reports, not mafia discussion or cj. However I do not want Raptorblaze to be punished, I would like him to admit to a mistake so it doesn't happen again.

[Raptorblaze]

This seems like something for mafia player reports, not mafia discussion or cj. However I do not want Raptorblaze to be punished, I would like him to admit to a mistake so it doesn't happen again.

Except it isn't a mistake and no other staff thus far have voiced any disagreement (I said exactly what I was doing in mod chat when it happened so they'd be aware). As he stated this kind of stuff belongs in CJ as that is our designated section for moderator dissent (as long as you keep it above a personal attack) so I'm moving it there.

You're free to report it, I'll even post the replay for you again.

[kyle1234513]

now, the question here is this, does deleting ones bank delete their achievments?

also I know that if you erase your win/loss record that can not be restored either....

[Raptorblaze]

now, the question here is this, does deleting ones bank delete their achievments?

also I know that if you erase your win/loss record that can not be restored either....

Actually Dark Rev can restore all of that. We just reserve it for specific cases.

[maccabbe]

So it has been ruled that it is valid to take points "on rare occasions, to make a point to players about their behavior. On the condition the points are returned shortly." Since this appears to extend to cases such as this I'm quitting sc2mafia.

[Mugy]

So it has been ruled that it is valid to take points "on rare occasions, to make a point to players about their behavior. On the condition the points are returned shortly." Since this appears to extend to cases such as this I'm quitting sc2mafia.

Ego overwhelming.

[Raptorblaze]

So it has been ruled that it is valid to take points "on rare occasions, to make a point to players about their behavior. On the condition the points are returned shortly." Since this appears to extend to cases such as this I'm quitting sc2mafia.

Except that the original actions in that replay don't fit the policy anymore.

[Slaol]

The situation was an uncommon one, and one that our punishment for was exceedingly vague on before this instance. Our policy has been tweaked to reflect this need for clarification. Raptorblaze was not wrong in his decision to act, just the way we previously used our system was less than perfect. We hope to resolve the issue with Firestorm, as well as others that seem bothered by the situation.

[Shadowstrike2]

As far as I can tell the original posts were deleted. (If I'm wrong I'm sorry for what I'm about to say in advance.)

In my opinion. The fact that you chose to abuse your mod powers by essentially banning a player from the game because he did not understand something that happened was disgraceful and not something I'd expect of someone in your position. The fact that is actually an acceptable policy and has approval by other moderators amazes and saddens me greatly. He clearly did not deserve this. Just because there is a key on the kitchen table to the padlocked fridge and the retarded kid is too stupid to figure it out or understand what he needs to do to get to his proverbial piece of cake that everyone else gets because he has trouble following instructions is in my opinion a fair and accurate metaphor to this. You are the equivalent of parents on this site and in as such have several different types of responsibility.

1: To have enough self control not to hand out individualized punishments for exceptionally minor offenses. (If there is even an offense in question which is highly debatable.)
2: To apply the rules of the game fairly and equally.
3: To support a tolerant level headed community.

You lost your cool and have essentially banned this person from the game because he did not understand what you did and said something to you about it. It doesn't matter if this was your intent or not. At the rate hes going he is banned because hes not tech savvy enough to understand your instructions is still you performing a ban for no good reason.

Furthermore and even more shocking is the fact that the original posts seem to be removed. Posts that detailed your explanation of what you did and why you felt it was justified. On top of that moving this to a sub-forum which is sequestered from the rest of the site on the basis that "this seems like something for cj not maf discussion" when this directly impacts game related punishments and rule applications in the game of mafia and is about someone no longer being able to play the game in question seems like a very weak argument as to why this belongs here.

I honestly believe your intentions for deleting and removing have more to do with the fact that you don't want this turning into a public spectacle as it honestly should.

As to my 3 points I believe none of these have been proven in the deleted posts and this continuing discussion. There are people who deserve the kind of punishment that was given to this player much more than the player in question. I'd rather see this kind of thing applied to some of the trolls that 1/3 of the games I play.

Is there truly no mod on this site that understands and agrees with what I'm saying?

[Damus_Graves]

As far as I can tell the original posts were deleted. (If I'm wrong I'm sorry for what I'm about to say in advance.)
They were deleted because the thread was not fit for mafia discussion.

In my opinion. The fact that you chose to abuse your mod powers by essentially banning a player from the game because he did not understand something that happened was disgraceful and not something I'd expect of someone in your position. The fact that is actually an acceptable policy and has approval by other moderators amazes and saddens me greatly. He clearly did not deserve this. Just because there is a key on the kitchen table to the padlocked fridge and the retarded kid is too stupid to figure it out or understand what he needs to do to get to his proverbial piece of cake that everyone else gets because he has trouble following instructions is in my opinion a fair and accurate metaphor to this. You are the equivalent of parents on this site and in as such have several different types of responsibility.
The point here was not that he didn't understand what was going on. It was the fact that he was ruining the game by focusing the dicussion and forcing lynches based on an accusation of skype cheating. From what I understand Firestorm literally screwed over any chance at a reasonable day with his push to lynch someone based on information that he had access too and was explained about several times. The game was hurt by this action and actions were taken due to it happening. There is a difference between not understanding something and raging about it. When you rage about something it takes away from everything else that is far more important. Going with your point about the "retard kid" is that even a retard kid understands, with enough explanation, about how a key and door works. Here he obviously begins to understand what is going on and he continues to hurt the game with his continued rage about nonexistant "skype cheating" and "Free points."

1: To have enough self control not to hand out individualized punishments for exceptionally minor offenses. (If there is even an offense in question which is highly debatable.)
2: To apply the rules of the game fairly and equally.
3: To support a tolerant level headed community.

You lost your cool and have essentially banned this person from the game because he did not understand what you did and said something to you about it. It doesn't matter if this was your intent or not. At the rate hes going he is banned because hes not tech savvy enough to understand your instructions is still you performing a ban for no good reason.

Furthermore and even more shocking is the fact that the original posts seem to be removed. Posts that detailed your explanation of what you did and why you felt it was justified. On top of that moving this to a sub-forum which is sequestered from the rest of the site on the basis that "this seems like something for cj not maf discussion" when this directly impacts game related punishments and rule applications in the game of mafia and is about someone no longer being able to play the game in question seems like a very weak argument as to why this belongs here.
I deleted the posts and the thread because it was not a discussion about the game. It was a discussion about a staff members course of actions and their validity. There was only a thin reference to the game itself and that was not enough of a thing to keep it in that particular subforum. This portion of the points you bring up had nothing to do with Rap at all as it was I who preformed the actions.

I honestly believe your intentions for deleting and removing have more to do with the fact that you don't want this turning into a public spectacle as it honestly should.

Again. It was not Rap. It was myself

As to my 3 points I believe none of these have been proven in the deleted posts and this continuing discussion. There are people who deserve the kind of punishment that was given to this player much more than the player in question. I'd rather see this kind of thing applied to some of the trolls that 1/3 of the games I play.

Is there truly no mod on this site that understands and agrees with what I'm saying?

I can easily bring back up those posts and relay them here. But under no circumstance is this thread to derail into a flame fest and no this will never be allowed within mafia discussion.

[Shadowstrike2]

Why delete the posts to begin with? That seems shady. Assuming I was a mod: If the option was between moving and deleting and if I had no intention of attempting to cover up or hide the fact that wrong doing had been admitted why not have simply moved the whole thread here so the conversation could continue.

As far as I can tell our report format states that no action is to be taken against trolls including watch-listing. He felt his points (No pun intended) were valid and there was no attempt to troll whatsoever in my opinion. So under that context what happened is still an abuse of powers and your duties as a moderator.

""Crime": Trolling
Trolling is acting like an idiot for the pursuit of hilarity, or otherwise screwing with people in a manner that does not ruin the game.
Severity: None
Yep, that's right, nothing will happen to regular trolls."

At worst this is what he did. Even that is debatable due to the fact that he felt he had a legitimate argument. Maybe he should have taken this up with you after the game but that isn't really relevant either in my opinion.

If I truly suspected skypers i'd probably try and get them killed too. Game integrity first, who wins second. I also don't remember mentioning raptorblaze at all? Truly I was foggy on who did what till I saw your reply. The point was it was done at all.

As for mafia discussion being an inappropriate forum for this I strongly disagree and here is why.

A. Everything that is being discussed took place in a game of mafia.
B. It affects how players will be punished for their actions in a game of mafia as well as policy of punishments in a game of mafia.
C. This also explains different moderator powers that can be used during a game of mafia.

I see nothing about this that is not mafia.

By you bringing up raptorblaze near the end the implication I get is that your saying Raptor did not bother removing them so he was not trying to cover anything up. That point if it was implied or not is refuted in the facts that...

1. Your all probably friends and have each others backs in a situation like this.
2. A moderator doing something questionable with his powers puts a bad light on all of you not just him.

I'd believe the only reasonable course of action to turn this into anything over than a coverup of moderator abuse is to bring back the posts verbatim of all that was said in the order it was said.

Your last words on this not turning into a flame fest seemed designed to help foreshadow you claiming this is turning into a flame-fest so you have "legitimate" cause to write this off as that and close it since its continued existence makes the moderators involved and moderators in general look bad.

I can just see it now. "Hey raptor bro! Why you admit that in public forum!? We gotta deal with this!"

[Shadowstrike2]

RaptorBlaze: "The only "damage" is his points which I told him I'd restore and saved the replay to guarantee he could get. The kicking from games is something he's doing to himself.

I'm closing the thread because it's just me repeating myself over and over again and people ignoring it. It's not mod abuse and he gets his point restore as soon as he posts asking for it, like I originally told him. The kicking is something he is 100% doing to himself since he was told exactly how to remove it and refuses to do so."

The fact that he has to go through this process at all is the mod abuse. Honestly even if he had
been full of shit it could honestly be seen as a legit strategy. With some of the shit I've seen (I havent even been playing for a long time...) this would fit right in. There is no punishable offense to warrant a punishment of any kind.

Also I just talked to firestorm. Walk me through instructions to give him so he can get his points restored. Lets get this fixed and over with so its a dead horse and I won't feel the need to beat at it anymore.

Edit: Also in my opinion hes owed an apology.

Edit 2: Elixar "So like I throw someone in prison and tell them exactly how to get out.

Rather than getting out they just yell a lot; hit the bars and shit into his own hand and throw it at me.

And it's my fault if his sheer retardation keeps him in the cell?

Christ."

Point is he never should have been in prison to begin with. Thanks for the down rep.

[Mateo]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...nt-restoration

NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP

[Shadowstrike2]

The first flame was had. Thanks.

[Mateo]

ur welcome

[TheDarkestLight]

Stop the rage...

Let this video give you insight to a happy life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H0xPWAtaa8

If we're all happy we won't need to rage.

[Shadowstrike2]

i'm lighting the peace pipe right now

[maccabbe]

Ego overwhelming.

I just don't want to play a game where mods feel it is fair to use their powers to punish players for something other than breaking rules.

[Shadowstrike2]

Maccabe: "I just don't want to play a game where mods feel it is fair to use their powers to punish players for something other than breaking rules."

Oh i think there behavior is terrible on this. But at least its a fixable issue. Even if the mod who did it should be the one clamoring to clean up his own mess. Light a peace pipe and let it go. We all have bad days.

At least this is clearly not a common occurance.

[Dagaen]

Wow, after seeing replay I am SHOCKED! WTF???

I thought this guys was spamming all the time, calling your names, or be total jerk, but he wasn't! He just played normally and reacted with righteous rage when he saw someone receiving free points. Now we require everybody to know how this works? Not everybody looks at this site, there is nothing in help menu, his lack of knowledge is PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED.

The thing hurts me the most: He didn't destroy gameplay at any point, because he played Mafia. His rage looked righteous, as he shuns hackers and corruption. He succesfully lynched Raptor, telling that "corrupt bitches has to die". This isn't even offensive when compared to usual Mafia conversations. Another few quotes from him: "anyone who gives free points is cheating" , "excuse me Mr. Admin...with respect.. but it said that Error was giving out free points", "how else should act with justice?", "how giving out free points justified?". He was concerned about possible cheaters in game, he was polite toward admin and Raptor gave him 10000000000 points. SRSLY?????

Also he wasn't even mad on dead chat. He asked Raptor why did he fucked with his score and why is it necessary to go through all this process. Now we are making good people suffer for no reason?

And btw, you know what site first appears when you type "mafia bank file" or "sc2mafia bank file" in google? Hacking site. Yay for encouraging!

Before I saw it I thought that sure, this sounds like mistake, but Raptor has a ton of cases, he is bound to make some. But now...I don't know. This really looks like mod abuse.

I really encourage all mods to watch this rep.

[Raptorblaze]

Wow, after seeing replay I am SHOCKED! WTF???

I thought this guys was spamming all the time, calling your names, or be total jerk, but he wasn't! He just played normally and reacted with righteous rage when he saw someone receiving free points. Now we require everybody to know how this works? Not everybody looks at this site, there is nothing in help menu, his lack of knowledge is PERFECTLY JUSTIFIED.

The thing hurts me the most: He didn't destroy gameplay at any point, because he played Mafia. His rage looked righteous, as he shuns hackers and corruption. He succesfully lynched Raptor, telling that "corrupt bitches has to die". This isn't even offensive when compared to usual Mafia conversations. Another few quotes from him: "anyone who gives free points is cheating" , "excuse me Mr. Admin...with respect.. but it said that Error was giving out free points", "how else should act with justice?", "how giving out free points justified?". He was concerned about possible cheaters in game, he was polite toward admin and Raptor gave him 10000000000 points. SRSLY?????

Also he wasn't even mad on dead chat. He asked Raptor why did he fucked with his score and why is it necessary to go through all this process. Now we are making good people suffer for no reason?

And btw, you know what site first appears when you type "mafia bank file" or "sc2mafia bank file" in google? Hacking site. Yay for encouraging!

Before I saw it I thought that sure, this sounds like mistake, but Raptor has a ton of cases, he is bound to make some. But now...I don't know. This really looks like mod abuse.

I really encourage all mods to watch this rep.

It wasn't abuse, it was a vague area of policy. We've clarified the policy (and excluded this specific instance). Also I wouldn't call screaming that we were selling points after I tell him it was a restore due to a computer failure "righteous rage" I like how you're ignoring that he was raging AFTER I explained why I gave the guy points.

[Raptorblaze]

Maccabe: "I just don't want to play a game where mods feel it is fair to use their powers to punish players for something other than breaking rules."

Oh i think there behavior is terrible on this. But at least its a fixable issue. Even if the mod who did it should be the one clamoring to clean up his own mess. Light a peace pipe and let it go. We all have bad days.

At least this is clearly not a common occurance.

I changed policy that was set long before I joined so it wouldn't happen again, not sure what else you expect me to do. I'm not apologizing because I simply followed the policy I was trained on and used bank modification as a behavioral corrective measure. We changed it to exclude actually banning people by setting their points super high when it's just a behavioral issue, and restricted it to only taking points and then returning them shortly (implying prior to game end) because it's sometimes used to blackmail chronic leavers into not leaving games.

[Damus_Graves]

Ok. Stop using the deletion of the thread as some obscure justification for your entire point. Its bullshit and utterly wrong. I have already stated who, myself, erased the thread and why it was done. That issue is now closed so do not bring it up again. Beating a dead horse only makes you a jerk.
You can continue discussing this all you want just stop trying to make Rap look bad by using my actions as justification.

[Dagaen]

Well, at least something good came from it. Thank you Raptorblaze, good to have my faith in staff restored

Also few ideas:

Make point restore a private command, so it can't be visible for anyone and/or maybe add in help menu little tip how to have your points restored. These are small changes but will help to farther prevent such situations. Not everybody has to know what even is "point restore", that's why I said that his rage was justified.

[Raptorblaze]

Well, at least something good came from it. Thank you Raptorblaze, good to have my faith in staff restored

Also few ideas:

Make point restore a private command, so it can't be visible for anyone and/or maybe add in help menu little tip how to have your points restored. These are small changes but will help to farther prevent such situations. Not everybody has to know what even is "point restore", that's why I said that his rage was justified.

You have no idea how many times I've asked for it not to post that stupid message for everyone. Even worse, it tells them exactly which player did it so they can immediately all target him, which is why I -prefer veteran at the beginning of that replay. The only people who need to see the message are the admin (for confirmation they typed it right) and the receiver. The tooltip is also a good suggestion, unfortunately we can't update the map at all until oops returns due to a glitch with the banlist.

[kyle1234513]

in my opinion.....

this all occurred in game,
nothing rulebreaking occurred
he did not ask for points
so.........

in my opinion this is widely unfair to the player. regardless of just or not.
you force him to visit the website, you force him to make an account, you force him several days of waiting and being unable to play the game at all, you force him to go out of his way.

all because of an unwanted conversation in game.
last time I checked I have the ability to -mute # in all situations I deem trollzy or flat out stupid in game.

[Admiral]

Apparently Raptorblaze is my dad here?

[Lysergic]

I'm actually inclined to agree that the "punishment" was excessive since no actual rule violation seems to have occurred. Rap was trying to make a point to the player in question, and went overboard on it.

However, there is no permanent damage, other than a few days of inconvenience.

I'm a bit baffled by this outrage. I mean, "I'm quitting sc2maf forever" and shit like that? Really?

Do you want me to draw and quarter Raptorblaze over this? Or maybe we should boot him off the admin team after YEARS of good service to the site after a SINGLE case where he went overboard trying to make a point?

Like, seriously, what are people expecting by turning this into a huge deal?

Here's a solution that isn't retarded:

1. Write up guidelines for how to act in this situation in the future

2. Contact the player in question and tell them how to get their points restored to normal without changing their other achievements and whatnot

3. Have a conversation about ways we can implement changes to the game itself so that this doesn't happen again.

Oh wait, all three of those things have happened.

So outside of getting a posse together to lynch Rap or whatever other extreme bullshit people seem to want out of this, I feel like we're done here.

[Lysergic]

Also, shadowstrike, there's a quote button. It looks like this:

[Raptorblaze]

I'm actually inclined to agree that the "punishment" was excessive since no actual rule violation seems to have occurred. Rap was trying to make a point to the player in question, and went overboard on it.

However, there is no permanent damage, other than a few days of inconvenience.

I'm a bit baffled by this outrage. I mean, "I'm quitting sc2maf forever" and shit like that? Really?

Do you want me to draw and quarter Raptorblaze over this? Or maybe we should boot him off the admin team after YEARS of good service to the site after a SINGLE case where he went overboard trying to make a point?

Like, seriously, what are people expecting by turning this into a huge deal?

Here's a solution that isn't retarded:

1. Write up guidelines for how to act in this situation in the future

2. Contact the player in question and tell them how to get their points restored to normal without changing their other achievements and whatnot

3. Have a conversation about ways we can implement changes to the game itself so that this doesn't happen again.

Oh wait, all three of those things have happened.

So outside of getting a posse together to lynch Rap or whatever other extreme bullshit people seem to want out of this, I feel like we're done here.

Maccabbe quit because I sent him a copy of the policy guidelines.

[Mateo]

the way i see it, raptor spent a great deal of time explaining the situation, and it fell on deaf ears. so rather than continue explaining it, he tried to show him what the deal was. maybe it was a bad call but im sure it made sense at the time, and i did not see anything malicious in his actions. since it was a vague policy open to interpretation, i dont see how it could be construed as mod abuse.

[Gerik]

I'm actually inclined to agree that the "punishment" was excessive since no actual rule violation seems to have occurred. Rap was trying to make a point to the player in question, and went overboard on it.

However, there is no permanent damage, other than a few days of inconvenience.

I'm a bit baffled by this outrage. I mean, "I'm quitting sc2maf forever" and shit like that? Really?

Do you want me to draw and quarter Raptorblaze over this? Or maybe we should boot him off the admin team after YEARS of good service to the site after a SINGLE case where he went overboard trying to make a point?

Like, seriously, what are people expecting by turning this into a huge deal?

Here's a solution that isn't retarded:

1. Write up guidelines for how to act in this situation in the future

2. Contact the player in question and tell them how to get their points restored to normal without changing their other achievements and whatnot

3. Have a conversation about ways we can implement changes to the game itself so that this doesn't happen again.

Oh wait, all three of those things have happened.

So outside of getting a posse together to lynch Rap or whatever other extreme bullshit people seem to want out of this, I feel like we're done here.

/thread

But seriously. I agree that Raptor went a bit too far, but this is one tiny blemish on what is otherwise a spotless record. And the fact that Firestorm was being a complete dildo and can still reverse the punishment at any time makes for a very weak argument against Raptor.

Even if we wanted to punish Raptor in some way, I don't think we have punishments that are light enough to be suitable for something so insignificant. I suppose we could over-punish him if you're a fan of poetic justice, but then you're a hypocrite. And like Lysergic said, steps have already been taken to reverse the "damage" and make sure it never happens again, so there's nothing left to do.

[Slaol]

/thread

But seriously. I agree that Raptor went a bit too far, but this is one tiny blemish on what is otherwise a spotless record. And the fact that Firestorm was being a complete dildo and can still reverse the punishment at any time makes for a very weak argument against Raptor.

Even if we wanted to punish Raptor in some way, I don't think we have punishments that are light enough to be suitable for something so insignificant. I suppose we could over-punish him if you're a fan of poetic justice, but then you're a hypocrite. And like Lysergic said, steps have already been taken to reverse the "damage" and make sure it never happens again, so there's nothing left to do.

Everyone is officially super.

[Raptorblaze]

the way i see it, raptor spent a great deal of time explaining the situation, and it fell on deaf ears. so rather than continue explaining it, he tried to show him what the deal was. maybe it was a bad call but im sure it made sense at the time, and i did not see anything malicious in his actions. since it was a vague policy open to interpretation, i dont see how it could be construed as mod abuse.

Which was actually the finding of the mod abuse report I told maccabbe to file. Slaol and I then worked together to make the policy clear, change it to satisfy the complaints, and put it in a sticky so that everyone on staff would be aware of it.

/thread

But seriously. I agree that Raptor went a bit too far, but this is one tiny blemish on what is otherwise a spotless record. And the fact that Firestorm was being a complete dildo and can still reverse the punishment at any time makes for a very weak argument against Raptor.

Even if we wanted to punish Raptor in some way, I don't think we have punishments that are light enough to be suitable for something so insignificant. I suppose we could over-punish him if you're a fan of poetic justice, but then you're a hypocrite. And like Lysergic said, steps have already been taken to reverse the "damage" and make sure it never happens again, so there's nothing left to do.

Well depends how you define blemish. If you're talking about screw ups I've had my fair share, but so have a lot of staff members. If you're talking about purposely malicious and harmful then it's still spotless. All a matter of perspective, but if rarely used and nonessential policies upset the community I'm more than willing to change them as we did here.

Edit: Why do I never look before posting to see if a thread is closed?

[Lysergic]

If you're talking about screw ups I've had my fair share, but so have a lot of staff members.

Except Lysergic, who is perfect.

/thread