A Kind Suggestion pertaining to the Visibility of Bus Driver Actions.

[Goonswarm]

Honestly I played about 5 pub hosted games and every SINGLE ONE has bus driver swap notification off. THIS FUCKING FUCKS GAMES UP /endrant

Moderation Edit [Elixir]: Changed title to something less GoonCapsRagey

[FalseTruth]

+1

/sign

Do it, DR.

[Elixir]

I think that was the intention but something broke when it was uploaded.

[Claire_Stanfield]

You can host your own game.

[Hero]

Absolutely agree. Bus driver should be put to mafia or get rid of that option. Totally anti-town, it's like giving vigilante a "Must random shoot someone every night" with a deadly combo of "Can shoot first night".

[Dark.Revenant]

No, I think I'll add an option wherein the Bus Driver only targets one person; the second target is random.

[BorkBot]

Serious or joking? That'd just make a BD anti-town by default.

This topic was solely to point out that it seems Bus Drivers have notification for their targets turned off by default, so there's nobody to confirm a BD in pubs with newbie hosts who didn't get their settings right.

[philie]

how does it even make any difference?

[wightsnow]

how does it even make any difference?

..... Because then investigation results will be totally f***'d.

[philie]

so they are fucked nonetheless. you can say you were busdriven/framed. Its not like it wasnt always up to the BD to confirm anyway.
when i played with pubs and there wasnt such option yet, my investigations got screwed over and no one bothered to tell me they were driven, even when they knew it.
So i dont see how it changed anything, and i would like the option to stay.

[BorkBot]

Uhm. No? People spam day chat that they were Bus Driven whenever there's a BD in the game. Yes, you need a BD to confirm bus driven targets.. but the option is there so that others can confirm the BD's actions as well, to prove that he is actually the BD and not an enemy of the town.

And in pubs, it's just generally useful to have that message because some BD's might not say a damn thing. Being able to say "I was bus driven" is way more convincing than "maybe I was bus driven?"

[philie]

so say you were busdriven then.... just like with any setting... point out that settings are this and that. As if its never done with any other role.
The busdriver who doesnt speak up is like a sheriff who doesnt announce a found mafia. You were swapped with a mafia and blamed. What SHOULD busdriver do? no matter if YOU know you were driven, HE will definitely know who the mafia is.

[Spy]

DR just admit that this role sucks

I mean Mafia is a logic game. I don't think people even know the implications and logic behind just 2 roles (Mafiosi and Citizens) let alone Bus Driver, Witch, Investigator, Jester...

You are mixing too many logical rules that the game now is no longer logical, but just a mess

[Goonswarm]

DR just admit that this role sucks

I mean Mafia is a logic game. I don't think people even know the implications and logic behind just 2 roles (Mafiosi and Citizens) let alone Bus Driver, Witch, Investigator, Jester...

You are mixing too many logical rules that the game now is no longer logical, but just a mess

The role is good and has provided some epic games from my experience. The option however is fucking horrible. Just remove it and force swaps to be seen.


OR CHANGE IT so bus driver swaps/arson douses look the same? Just a suggestion.

[Luna]

All Mafia games in any format come down to luck, which is why the games are fun and unpredictable. On the first night the Mafioso can go to kill someone, get witched, and kill off his own Consig. An SK on that same first night could just happen to target a GF that isn't immune at night.

Or maybe a town loses 3 doctors on the first night.

The Bus Driver is a highly tactical role, as long as the notifications are on.

[Claire_Stanfield]

It's just an option, if you don't like it turn it off, i don't like sheriff detecting mafia so please delete it also!

[Hero]

Claire, answer it then, please. Why is it a good option? And don't tell me because of Arsonist, because last I checked bus driver was a TOWN role.

With notification, even if bus driver random switched people, they sometimes came forward the next day (not all the time, sure), thus letting town know that there's a bus driver and somewhat helping the investigators in case they checked someone who had been switched. Even then bus drivers sometimes acted like a neutral role whose goal is to switch everyone around like crazy, messing up both mafia and town. Sad, but there's random vigils, failors, crazy mayros, etc., all town roles which in the wrong hands work againts town.

Now look at the bus driver when notification is off. First of all, no one will admit that they were switched, since they don't even know. Hell yeah, we've got a Bus Framer, epic! So good for town! But the fun doesn't end here. Bus driver being put on trial, says he's bus driver and switched x with y. Too bad bro, no one can confirm it, so bye, gg, gtfo. Epic, now we have a town role that is completely helpless, once accused. Great, so useful, really. Even better if he had been checked by investigator:
- Sup boy, you own gas. Care to explain?
- Yeah, you know I'm bus driver, but notifications are off.
- Sure bro. Lynch time, bye arsonist.
Greaaaat, now Arsonist's have a cannon fodder, wow, so good for town, really! Also, since no one has ANY idea that there's a bus driver, it's just like the strong version of witch, where you don't see if you are controlled. Yaaaay, we've got a Bus Witch, please keep the option, so good!!444

Vigilantes, Jailors, Mayors, etc. can kill off town, but on the other hand, they can also dig out a win for their beloved (?) allignment, when everything seems lost. But a bus driver without notifications? JOKE. Coinflip. Not a town role.

If you make bus driver neutral or mafia, then this option is AWESOME, really. Sad, but you have to figure out another setup, where town is completely fucked. Maybe 3 set vigilantes with four shots? They would do the same, but much faster.

[Claire_Stanfield]

1. It's easier to defend as Arsonist.
2. Bd shouldn't swap everything what moves.

[philie]

now i feel like the option is even better. It promotes not random bussing. Day 2 you're asked who you driving. It doesnt matter if you drive and screw up or if you dont drive, cause nobody can see it.
meta will come in and people will learn that some bus drivers dont show, just like some witches and framers and godfathers.
your argument about arsonist is invalid, what do you mean hes town and should have advantage over neutrals? There should be skill and intentions separating a bus from arso, and the arso should have equal win chances as the whole 8-10 people town.
Its not the settings fault some random investigator decided to lynch you. some random vigi would as likely shoot you and some random jailer would kill you for your name.
The setting makes it fun and more complicated
Not everything should be figured out by investigations. A real arsonist would lynch everyone, while a bus would think before voting. Etc.
Bus is not anti town as soon as he can't defend himself with hard facts anymore. Everyone but mayor has this problem.
It's still your goal to swap the killer with the killee, or an important player with a troll.
Nothing changed

[Zane]

or an important player with a troll.

Why do you swap an important player with another important player? You should swap a bad one with an important one.

[Dark.Revenant]

The reason I removed it for now is that, due to the popularity system, there is no way of segregating games based on skill or dedication to the game.

[philie]

1 sadface
2 if people chose the setting for their games it means they liked it too.
Its a shame it got removed because some retards were doing their thing and some ragers created over 9k threads crying about it.

[Hero]

now i feel like the option is even better. It promotes not random bussing. - "Wooo, I'm a newbie and I'm gonna random bus!!! Oh wait, notification is turned off?? Wow, I feel the urge to be a good bus driver!!!" Obviously....NOT.

Day 2 you're asked who you driving. It doesnt matter if you drive and screw up or if you dont drive, cause nobody can see it. - Yeah, but if you screw up, at least you can ask for back up. On the other hand, you can screw up everything without notifications. Yay.


meta will come in and people will learn that some bus drivers dont show, just like some witches and framers and godfathers. - Ok, so eventually people will get used to the fact that the Bus Driver has been replaced with the Bus Driver. True.


your argument about arsonist is invalid, what do you mean hes town and should have advantage over neutrals? - If by advantage you mean not fucking up town (as most of the neutral roles do), then I mean that maybe a town role shouldn't be set to screw town almost always.

There should be skill and intentions separating a bus from arso, and the arso should have equal win chances as the whole 8-10 people town. - No, arsonist shouldn't have equal chances. That's why it's a prestige to win with. That's why you get 30+ points. Because it's much harder to win with.


Its not the settings fault some random investigator decided to lynch you. some random vigi would as likely shoot you and some random jailer would kill you for your name. - nah, it's like 50-50 that vigil/jailor will screw things up, but it's 90 with Bus Driver. At least the old Bus Driver had some credit, even if he played badly


The setting makes it fun and more complicated - Fun? Yes, it's like chopping my fingers one by one. Except if i'm mafia, then i'm having a good laugh, that we have a witch in town costume. More complicated? True. I think Investigators should solve a mathematical task, otherwise they will get false information about their targets. That would make things more complicated as well.

Not everything should be figured out by investigations. A real arsonist would lynch everyone, while a bus would think before voting. Etc. - Only thing you are right about, but it still doesn't worth it.


Bus is not anti town as soon as he can't defend himself with hard facts anymore. - It's not just the fact he can't defend himself, but he also screws up investigations, and you don't even know about it. And don't tell me "well, you got yourself a noob bus driver", because then give back vigilantes the ability to shoot first night (or make it as an option ), and when you will get random shot first night by vigil, I will tell you the same.

Everyone but mayor has this problem. - Spy is ok as well, most of the time.

It's still your goal to swap the killer with the killee, or an important player with a troll.
Nothing changed -[b] But 90% of the bus drivers will still random bus until day 3 or 4, and you will have absolutely no idea about it. You won't even know there's a bus driver in the game, let alone think about, who might he had swapped.

All in all it's bad and doesn't make sense for a town role. And no, the fact that it might work in an inhouse game doesn't justify it's place in the game. If DR would only make this game for smart lads who enjoy being citizens and discussing for 3 mins a day, then I'm sure this game would look quite different. But he's not, and really, he can't, otherwise it would be a total mess in pub games (if there would be pub games at all. And I think my Vigilante example is fine - if you say that this should be an option for the bus driver, then i say make it a host option that the vigilante can shoot first night. Then enjoy the mayhem.

[Claire_Stanfield]

It was a setting, you didn't like it - you didn't use it. About defending as Arsonist.
He has gasoline! Role?
BD.
Who did you swap?
Bob and Jack.
Lie! He's Arsonist!
But if they wouldn't know that they were swapped it could be different.

[philie]

Your arguments defend bad play and promote not striving for the better. I dont remember pubs being that narrow minded. I myself had a defined busdriver in my setup with the option on and no confusion occurred. There was obviously a BD, nobody doubted that.
Bus still screws with town with notification on, and this is what you are complaining about - random driving. Random driving wont stop and its just as bad as random vigilanting.
If you think making vigi able to kill 1st night would change anything, you're mistaken. Well he probably gonna shoot a justin bieber or a hitler and shit, but it still will be fucking retarded. If people play so dumb there is no point playing at all and they might aswell replace themselves with Illidans mafia simulator. When you drive someone it should be for a reason, just as shooting.

and if you think BD with the option is anti town, why dont you go demand veteran to be removed, he kills all kinds of town, and i once was unlucky to kill fucking 4 of them in one night.

[BorkBot]

It was a setting, you didn't like it - you didn't use it. About defending as Arsonist.
He has gasoline! Role?
BD.
Who did you swap?
Bob and Jack.
Lie! He's Arsonist!
But if they wouldn't know that they were swapped it could be different.

That's the main reason an arsonist should try to kill the invest as soon as possible. If you're lucky.. you may also know who the actual (undeclared or dead) BD swapped on one or more nights if you doused someone and somebody else says "I got doused!". I've managed to bluff being a BD that way sometimes to buy some time. If it's late in the game and the invest hasn't done enough to earn the town's trust, you can also call his 'bluff' and claim a completely different role with information that checks out.

It's tough, though. Arso is heavily reliant on a lack of intel in order to succeed. But I don't see anything wrong with that.


Personally, I find the following scenario (without BD notification) infinitely worse than the one you described:

He has gasoline! Role?
BD.
Who did you swap?
Bob and Jack.
-silence for 5 seconds-
Let's lynch him just to be sure! BD is annoying anyway, so no loss if he speaks the truth.

That used to happen rather frequently. Town would have less problems lynching someone claiming BD than someone claiming citizen when they aren't even possible in the setup

[Dark.Revenant]

This is the reason why the town shouldn't be 100% power roles.

[TheJackofSpades]

This thread seems familiar...
https://www.thecouncilofmages.com/for...ic,2033.0.html

[philie]

This thread seems familiar...
https://www.thecouncilofmages.com/for...ic,2033.0.html

because goon was throwing fits till the option got removed. Rev could not resist his tears:P