"We don't need a Survivor/Executioner/Amnesiac"

[Force20]

I lose brain cells every time some retard says this in a Mafia game.
__________________________________________________ ________________________

Actually, recently, I've learned that as a town you should avoid taking down a Survivor. I learned that the hard way.

I was investigator one game and night 1 I found someone as a loner.

Then fast forward to the last day. There was a Veteran, Godfather, and the loner. Due to the elimination method, he was either a Survivor or an Amnesiac. The thing is is that I put him inside my last will, yet THE VETERAN LYNCHES THE SURVIVOR ANYWAYS! Therefore, Mafia won.

Now, whenever I play a town role, I don't kill a survivor. When it goes down to a situation where the only thing keeping the town from winning is a survivor/amnesiac and a witch I just skip 3 days...because Town wins anyways.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

I cringe every time some asshole townie mayor says "Survivors/Executioners/Amnesiacs aren't important". A neutral benign role is most likely to side in the following order.

Neutral Killing (whichever has the winning advantage) > Town > Mafia.

It makes sense. Neutral Killing roles will probably kill them 10% of the time, only in a desperate situation or if they don't know who's who will they end up killing them. They will trust town because the town needs them to help vote. Finally, I generally try to avoid siding with the Mafia as a Witch/Neut benign role because I'll probably get fucked over in the end because playing as a Mafia role apparently triggers douchebaggery in everyone.

[Raptorblaze]

Amnesiacs can usually be turned to town benefit, especially when it reveals the role they took.
Survivors usually side with mafia end-game, so taking them out early on is not a huge deal especially if they might be scum claiming neutral, the situation you just described is more sheer stupidity than survivor being important to town. Why he would lynch a neutral benign over the godfather idek.

[Force20]

Amnesiacs can usually be turned to town benefit, especially when it reveals the role they took.
Survivors usually side with mafia end-game, so taking them out early on is not a huge deal especially if they might be scum claiming neutral, the situation you just described is more sheer stupidity than survivor being important to town. Why he would lynch a neutral benign over the godfather idek.

More often than not I see Mafia take out a Survivor just because. More often than not the Survivor is forced to go against the town because either the Town is retarded or the the survivor is stuck in a position where he has to lie or face a lynch.

Mafia killing off a survivor happens more often than you think. Sometimes they do it just for fun. Sometimes they do it because they feel that the survivor will betray them (oh the irony). However, the neutral killing role has to keep the survivor alive because that survivor is often his only ally in the game.

[Raptorblaze]

More often than not I see Mafia take out a Survivor just because. More often than not the Survivor is forced to go against the town because either the Town is retarded or the the survivor is stuck in a position where he has to lie or face a lynch.

Mafia killing off a survivor happens more often than you think. Sometimes they do it just for fun. Sometimes they do it because they feel that the survivor will betray them (oh the irony). However, the neutral killing role has to keep the survivor alive because that survivor is often his only ally in the game.

My view on survivors:
If someone claims a survivor, and I think they're scummy its no big loss to kill them.

[Slaol]

'Loner' is almost always a bad thing for Town in comparison to the Jester/Executioner combo out of Neutral Benign. It is almost always smart to eliminate them, not because they are 'useless' but because they are simply poisonous to Town, even more so than the obvious Jester and Executioner poison. Also, Witch.

Spoiler : Survivor :

In the argument of a Jester vs. a Survivor-
Most would say a Jester is more dangerous to town. It causes 1(if not more) mislynch, can kill a Town at night, and is just confusing. However, Jesters will become a Town's blessing. Get it down to 3 Town vs. 3 Mafia, and a Jester, and the day is delayed, in search of a Jester win. A Jailor can will his team to victory then, or the Jester can actually side with the Town, since Mafia tend to refuse to get a Jester his win.
If the Jester is a Survivor the vote becomes 3 Town vs. 4 Non-Town, since Survivor actually picks Mafia more, in fear of a night kill.

While Survivor appears vulnerable only having 3-4 vests, that amount is normally enough to survive the entire game, thus inevitably giving the Mafia a 4th vote.

Spoiler : Amnesiac :

In the argument of an Executioner vs. an Amnesiac-
In a lot of cases the Executioner appears anti-town too. The target is typically Town, and the confusion of the text is bad for town. But once again we find a late-game ally. "I have my win, I will vote with Town." happens quite a lot.
Amnesiac, on the other hand, tends to play spoiler, especially if 'role is revealed to town' is off. Secretively giving Mafia a 4th member. If I had to guess, Amnesiac takes Mafia 70% of the time when 'role is revealed to town' is off. Probably 70% of town when the setting is on. But even when it is on, if Amnesiac doesn't find a role it likes an waits, it could side with Mafia again, and give them a resounding win.

Spoiler : Witch :

Witch, is obviously anti-town, and is one heck of a thing to have show up in a game. A quasi Mafia than makes people second guess their investigations, can eliminate neutrals, throw town at dumb Veterans, and eliminate Doctors from effect. A Framer/Role block/killing role all in one that sides with Mafia

[Damus_Graves]

'Loner' is almost always a bad thing for Town in comparison to the Jester/Executioner combo out of Neutral Benign. It is almost always smart to eliminate them, not because they are 'useless' but because they are simply poisonous to Town, even more so than the obvious Jester and Executioner poison. Also, Witch.

Spoiler : Survivor :

In the argument of a Jester vs. a Survivor-
Most would say a Jester is more dangerous to town. It causes 1(if not more) mislynch, can kill a Town at night, and is just confusing. However, Jesters will become a Town's blessing. Get it down to 3 Town vs. 3 Mafia, and a Jester, and the day is delayed, in search of a Jester win. A Jailor can will his team to victory then, or the Jester can actually side with the Town, since Mafia tend to refuse to get a Jester his win.
If the Jester is a Survivor the vote becomes 3 Town vs. 4 Non-Town, since Survivor actually picks Mafia more, in fear of a night kill.

While Survivor appears vulnerable only having 3-4 vests, that amount is normally enough to survive the entire game, thus inevitably giving the Mafia a 4th vote.

Spoiler : Amnesiac :

In the argument of an Executioner vs. an Amnesiac-
In a lot of cases the Executioner appears anti-town too. The target is typically Town, and the confusion of the text is bad for town. But once again we find a late-game ally. "I have my win, I will vote with Town." happens quite a lot.
Amnesiac, on the other hand, tends to play spoiler, especially if 'role is revealed to town' is off. Secretively giving Mafia a 4th member. If I had to guess, Amnesiac takes Mafia 70% of the time when 'role is revealed to town' is off. Probably 70% of town when the setting is on. But even when it is on, if Amnesiac doesn't find a role it likes an waits, it could side with Mafia again, and give them a resounding win.

Spoiler : Witch :

Witch, is obviously anti-town, and is one heck of a thing to have show up in a game. A quasi Mafia than makes people second guess their investigations, can eliminate neutrals, throw town at dumb Veterans, and eliminate Doctors from effect. A Framer/Role block/killing role all in one that sides with Mafia

In regards of Survivor.
That completely depends on the survivor in question and the way town plays.
Personally I will side with town as long as they play intelligently and do not just give the win away to mafia.

Amnesiac - I will always turn for ways to sneak out a win under whoever is in the lead atm.
If Town has a solid lead against the scum I take on the persona of either a dead Jester or Executioner if there is one.

[marinebase7]

As survivor I tend to give the game to whoever deserved it the most (most of the time town is retarded though). Sometimes mafia is scum enough to shoot/lynch you so I side with town. That being said survivor being alive (and not voting) doesn't help town at all. It is actually detrimental since survivor can force the votes to go up by 1 giving an example:
12 people left: 3 mafia 1 survivor 1 neutral killing and 7 town
Need 7 votes to vote someone to trial.
Trying to get mafia lynched; need 7 votes. Effective votes: 8 (mafia don't vote themselves and survivor refrains from voting at all times).

That being said survivor is usually not worth lynching or jailing over. If I am vig I usually shoot survivors just to make sure he isn't witch but that's about it.

[Slaol]

@Damus. This...

'Loner' is almost always a bad thing for Town in comparison to the Jester/Executioner combo out of Neutral Benign. It is almost always smart to eliminate them, not because they are 'useless' but because they are simply poisonous to Town, even more so than the obvious Jester and Executioner poison. Also, Witch.

Spoiler : Survivor :

In the argument of a Jester vs. a Survivor-
Most would say a Jester is more dangerous to town. It causes 1(if not more) mislynch, can kill a Town at night, and is just confusing. However, Jesters will become a Town's blessing. Get it down to 3 Town vs. 3 Mafia, and a Jester, and the day is delayed, in search of a Jester win. A Jailor can will his team to victory then, or the Jester can actually side with the Town, since Mafia tend to refuse to get a Jester his win.
If the Jester is a Survivor the vote becomes 3 Town vs. 4 Non-Town, since Survivor actually picks Mafia more, in fear of a night kill.

While Survivor appears vulnerable only having 3-4 vests, that amount is normally enough to survive the entire game, thus inevitably giving the Mafia a 4th vote.

Spoiler : Amnesiac :

In the argument of an Executioner vs. an Amnesiac-
In a lot of cases the Executioner appears anti-town too. The target is typically Town, and the confusion of the text is bad for town. But once again we find a late-game ally. "I have my win, I will vote with Town." happens quite a lot.
Amnesiac, on the other hand, tends to play spoiler, especially if 'role is revealed to town' is off. Secretively giving Mafia a 4th member. If I had to guess, Amnesiac takes Mafia 70% of the time when 'role is revealed to town' is off. Probably 70% of town when the setting is on. But even when it is on, if Amnesiac doesn't find a role it likes an waits, it could side with Mafia again, and give them a resounding win.

Spoiler : Witch :

Witch, is obviously anti-town, and is one heck of a thing to have show up in a game. A quasi Mafia than makes people second guess their investigations, can eliminate neutrals, throw town at dumb Veterans, and eliminate Doctors from effect. A Framer/Role block/killing role all in one that sides with Mafia

Is only what I see to happen the most often. Slaol w/ Survivor is a pro-town, scum hunting, mechanic magician, logic wrecking-ball of invulnerability until n5 Mafia/Sk/MM/Arson combo kill.

And your point on Amnesiac is decently in line with my point- 'It normally doesn't take town'. Exec/Jester isn't as bad as a full fledged Mafia. But a 2nd Jester/Exec can ruin a town.

[Myrtroll]

I always kill survivor claims if jailor. Survivor dead = no jesters/exe, so you can trust invests more. If you don't have anything useful to do, kill them. If not leave them and hope they play nice ;)

[Force20]

I always kill survivor claims if jailor. Survivor dead = no jesters/exe, so you can trust invests more. If you don't have anything useful to do, kill them. If not leave them and hope they play nice ;)

That's the problem in most pub mentality.

"Rainbow Dash claims survivor, EXECUTE!!!"

It's a wasted shot when you could have used it otherwise. Unless they prove that they indeed aren't a survivor. And nowadays, people playing scum roles are wising up to the fact that claiming survivor generally brings bad news, especially when all possible neutral benign roles die.

The scummiest neutral benign role would probably be amnesiac. I feel like amnesiac isn't a very good role at all and it only promotes trolling (similar to a jester). Like this one time an amnesiac turned serial killer and ruined the game.

Executioners are the most valuable ally in my opinion, especially after their target is lynched, they're night immune, and they dont have to survive to the end. The usually side with town just because they have nothing better to do and the only thing they fear is a cult conversion.

[Lazers]

I kill survivors always

You can't trust them

They do not trust you

[pat_power]

Survivors always side with mafia, so it's best to kill them or else it's town vs 4 mafia early into the game...

[RLVG]

Just claim "Town supporting survivor, I gain more points if I win with town."

[ariel135]

survivor always side with the mafia, they are always scum.

when i play, i always side like this:
neutral killer (because its hard to win with) -> town -> mafia.

[Force20]

So by everyone's logic, you would waste a kill on a survivor? This is exactly why pubs keep losing and why mafia keeps winning. They dick around acting like fucktards. They waste all their executions on survivors and doctors, then they wonder why they can never kill off the mafia.

How a typical pub plays.
1. Kill all survivors.
2. Kill all doctors.
3. Kill all sheriffs.
4. Mafia gets too powerful
5. Neutral Killing roles go full retard and doesn't kill any Mafia.
6. ???
7. inb4 Flawless Victory achievement.

[Anguss]

I love it when I'm jailor and a survivor claims on day 1 and says he's going AFK..

I'll jail and execute every time just to be an ass.

[Voss]

I love it when I'm jailor and a survivor claims on day 1 and says he's going AFK..

I'll jail and execute every time just to be an ass.

you sound like one of those guys that doesn't do their job as jailor.

[Anguss]

you sound like one of those guys that doesn't do their job as jailor.

I love to troll and execute on night 1.

[Anguss]

BYW, Force20, its Amnesiacs/Witches/Survivors.... Executioners share invest role with sheriff.

[Omeleet]

I suppose if it is too much inconvenience to play meta you could always roll a classic game. Though I doubt that's the answer you are looking for. Why don't the pubs instead organize an in-house game to minimize the likelihood of trolling/bad players?

The way I see it, the whole point of the game is to be able to see through others; having those roles makes that more challenging, no one would play if the game always felt like you were 100% in control. I have also been in plenty of games where survivor will swing with the town if survivor can do so without losing.

[cookies4you]

In D&D Terms, here's what I think of the three big neutrals and the Citizen.

Survivor (Chaotic-Neutral): Doesn't do anything. He just sits there, being a Neutral, killing off Citizens.

Executioner (Lawful-Evil): Kills people, on purpose.

Jester (Chaotic-Neutral): Kills people, but not on purpose.

Citizen (Chaotic-Evil): Mob mentality, LYNCH EVERYONE.

[Gzz]

Well , kill a survivor doesen't make sense, i mean, as jailor when someone claims survivior i generally let him going, but i watch if there is a missing kill and no doctor heal claims.

[Force20]

BYW, Force20, its Amnesiacs/Witches/Survivors.... Executioners share invest role with sheriff.

No witches. Witches are SUPPOSED to be anti-town. It's their goal.

I've seen some retards go for Executioners. Personally, I'd kill them off later if they are a potential threat.