Bless the children who were slain in this senseless tragedy.

[Necroplant]

Human Rights organizations have not been able to confirm the exact death figures from the Syrian Civil War, but as of February 2012 the list of children killed in the conflict was estimated that over 500 children have been killed in protests or conflict zones. Another 400 children have been reportedly arrested and tortured in Syrian prisons, and some of them have died as a result of torture. The conflict began when several Syrian youths were arrested for spraypainting anti-regime graffiti and were tortured over a week, including cigarette burns and having their fingernails ripped out.

Oh wait, did you think this thread would be about the 20 schoolchildren killed in Connecticut Friday?

I'm sorry mods if this thread sounds hateful, it is not meant to downplay what they went through. But not a lot of people give a shit about the Syrian children who have been victim to the initial senseless brutality of the Al-Assad regime, or the possible friendly fire caused by the Free Syrian Army, or the famine that they're going through right now in Aleppo, Syria's largest city.

A lot of Americans think the rebels are terrorists, and that may be true to a degree. But since the children are innocent victims, their deaths are a result of the rebel's enemies.

I wonder if the parents of the slain Connecticut schoolchildren think badly about the people of Syria? Do you think they'd praise the noble government's brutal efforts to crush any resistance?

DISCUSS: whose lives are more important? I made my choice, as seen above. This is a free-speech topic, please don't remove it.

[Necroplant]

WOW NOBODY CARES ABOUT THE ARABIAN TERRORISTS. THIS IS AMERICA LETS FOCUS ON OUR ISSUES!1

Iraq was invaded because they thought they had chemical weapons. OOPS!

This is a situation where the government has confirmed chemical weapon stockpiles that no international treaty forbid them from possessing. There are fears that the government will use them against rebels soon, or that the Free Syrian Army will have access to them once they lynch Al-Assad and his regime thugs. So yes, AN AMERICAN ISSUE

Also an AMERICAN ISSUE: the U.S is deploying several hundred troops to the Turkish border to help provide security, as well as the installation of several PATRIOT missile defense systems to protect Turkey and the refugee camps from Syrian artillery bombardment. Boots on the ground = AN AMERICAN ISSUE.

But now this topic is going far astray: think of the children.

[FYRE]

I tend to agree with Brendan. Weird timing for this thread if its not about the shooting in the US.

[Necroplant]

FYRE, this is entirely related to the shooting. Any comment I try and make to illuminate the gross disparities with how people react to tragedies in America vs. abroad, will make me sound like an asshole. So be it.

The twenty schoolchildren had great lives in suburban America prior to this freak attack, but all of these Syrian children of the same age suffered prior to being killed. Some of them are in refugee camps right now, freezing with the coming winter. Some of them survived massacres that destroyed their lives and killed their friends, forcing them and their families to flee their somewhat-stable home situations for uncertain futures in refugee camps.

The American children will suffer grief for the rest of their lives over this, but at least they'll always have warm beds to sleep in.

[Raptorblaze]

I'm going to sound like a horrible person for saying this, but I have a very utilitarian view of arguments like these.

Human lives are not sacred, nor is everyone human just as valuable as every other.

First, statistically speaking the American children on average would create more value for America than any of the Syrians.

Second, it makes an irrefutable amount of sense to care for the wellbeing of other citizens of your country. The country as a whole is a community unit formed to try and benefit all members, so the suffering of one member should be shared between all.

Therefore, to Americans the death of several American children is significantly worse than a similiar incident in a country such as Syria, and it is entirely reasonable and logical for this to be the case.

Not trying to say it isn't a tragedy, but people of actual value to my community take priority over people from the other side of the world who would likely never influence my life.

Edit: Also trying to say emotional pain doesn't matter because one has a comfortable living is not a valid argument.

[Necroplant]

To make myself sound more horrible than RaptorBlaze, what were the destinies of these children who were slain? Who would be the future oppressors, and who would be the slaves?

No real point to why I said that, but you argue that they would have value to American society. Value to whom? I know, they should have the gift of life to decide for themselves. Perhaps it would be better if I had died instead of them, as so far I haven't done anything very good in my life up to this point.

I suppose in that sense, it is terrible that any child should die, as they have a headstart in life and can be set in the right direction.

Personally, if I wanted to make a point in senseless slaughter, I wouldn't pick children. They are completely innocent. Pick the adults who have made choices and done actual harm, than children who have not even learned yet.

[CmG]

I think Necroplant should tell this to the parents of those 20 dead children in connecticut. Who agrees to this?

[Apocist]

I agree, but everyone is this way. Tragedys that happen closest to home are what matter most to people... It's as simple as that.... It's heartless, but we think about the people close to us the most.

[Auckmid]

I'm going to sound like a horrible person for saying this, but I have a very utilitarian view of arguments like these.

Human lives are not sacred, nor is everyone human just as valuable as every other.

First, statistically speaking the American children on average would create more value for America than any of the Syrians.

Second, it makes an irrefutable amount of sense to care for the wellbeing of other citizens of your country. The country as a whole is a community unit formed to try and benefit all members, so the suffering of one member should be shared between all.

Therefore, to Americans the death of several American children is significantly worse than a similiar incident in a country such as Syria, and it is entirely reasonable and logical for this to be the case.

Not trying to say it isn't a tragedy, but people of actual value to my community take priority over people from the other side of the world who would likely never influence my life.

Edit: Also trying to say emotional pain doesn't matter because one has a comfortable living is not a valid argument.

Wow, that's one of the most self-centered things that I've heard in my entire life. You're saying that if someone doesn't have a positive effect on your life, their own lives are of less value. If those are realy your belief's, then you are a horrible person.

[Slaol]

New point of view, a Slaol point of view: Can I just remind everyone that the universe as a whole doesn't care? The whole matter isn't destroyed thing? Yea. That. Maybe if we stopped trying to keep everyone on a human scale we wouldn't need to kill everyone? Raptor is correct to point out that American lives are more likely to effect American lives. I work in early childhood development, these were kids. My girlfriend goes to school in New Hampshire, Connecticut isn't too far. Things could've happened, they could've impacted my life. Raptor is ALSO correct to point out that not every life is equally as valuable. Sorry, they aren't. I am clearly worth a lot more than Cryptonic, all he does is Bug Reports. But at the end of the day this is just an internet site. Just like this planet is simply a nothing in comparison to the universe at large. We must keep all things in perspective, and if we could change our perspective and stop worrying about who is worth more, maybe we could be a simple unit. The EU won the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize for it's ability to be a union of nations (and things). Let's do that maybe? Stop trying to keep things on a small/focused/better/worse scale, and just put things under right/wrong?

[Nick]

But hey, Raptorblaze is being truthful. Between our child and other people's children, we will feel more sad if our child died.

A self centered thing to say is: "They are competing with me for oxygen. Good riddance."

By the way is this the shooting season in US?

[Nick]

Then again, value is subjective.

Those people in the mart is of no value to me. Let shoot some of them for fun.
Bloody kids... pestilence. I purge some of these trash.
Oops. Hit a kindergarten. Collateral damage. No problem.

[marinebase7]

Nick made a good point:

Then again, value is subjective.

I think what Necro is trying to get across here is the morality that weighs both scenarios we have at hand (some 20 children in America or some 400 kids in Syria being dead) and I would like to point out that such juxtaposition is meaningless. Label them both as terrible crimes and move on. It's almost impossible to compare the life of one American child to that of a Syrian child from an objective standpoint so, Necro, you're not making much of a statement. Of course in America the 20 children shooting is going to be considered far more devastating (to most Americans) because... well it happened here. If I had a child of my own and had to choose whether to let 20 other American children die or 400 Syrian children to die I would probably choose the life of my child (and I sincerely believe others would do the same). Because humans are egotistical, selfish creatures and nothing can really change that.

Wow, that's one of the most self-centered things that I've heard in my entire life. You're saying that if someone doesn't have a positive effect on your life, their own lives are of less value. If those are realy your belief's, then you are a horrible person.

No hard feelings but I just had an impression that you are being a hypocrite (not are but being one) when you say this. What Raptor says is true. I highly doubt the notion that you would equally value the lives of any 2 given human beings to be the same. If you had to save a person dearly close to you (family, friend, whatever) vs the life of some random person in thousands of miles away who you never even had contact with, who would you choose? What if it were weighed against the lives of TWO humans in another country? Three? When does the scale tip? It's impossible to value something without being "self-centered".

New point of view, a Slaol point of view: Can I just remind everyone that the universe as a whole doesn't care? The whole matter isn't destroyed thing?

If this is truly your point of view, the universe won't "care" (not that I was aware the universe had an ability to care but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) whether or not you lived. So from a grand perspective of things, why didn't you kill yourself yet? Whether you are dead or not doesn't matter in the big picture, true. You didn't kill yourself because of your egotistical self value of yourself as can be seen:

I am clearly worth a lot more than Cryptonic, all he does is Bug Reports.

Which is, needless to say, highly subjective. I'm sure Cryptonic values himself more than you do.
I'm not saying your perspective is wrong. In fact, I have come across the same rationalization as you have when evaluating life and death. But it isn't a good POV to live by.

[Raptorblaze]

Wow, that's one of the most self-centered things that I've heard in my entire life. You're saying that if someone doesn't have a positive effect on your life, their own lives are of less value. If those are realy your belief's, then you are a horrible person.

Less value to you.

I think you missed the point of my post. In a perfect world where we were designed to behave certain ways, it would make sense if we were designed to care about one another equally and feel bad based on the relative conditions of them and their families (as Necro is arguing for) however that isn't the case. Humanity evolved to be social animals because the society provides benefit to the individual, so it's perfectly understandable why we care more about people we can relate to, or who have obvious potential benefits to our individual lives than to people who in all likelihood would never have affected us in any way.

Sidenote to Necro, there's no way to know for sure, but its significantly more likely for a group of random children to not affect us than for one to become the next Einstein and change the world or something.

And no Auckmid, these are not my personal beliefs, this is just evolutionary truth about our species. No good can come from denying what we really are and our rationale for different emotions except to seem more like a "good" person. Good itself is an entire other discussion.

Moving this to SERIOUS DISCUSSION. Shit just got real.

[Nick]

Wut. Necroplant normally makes good SD.

But I've gotta warn you people, such discussions promote suicidal thoughts. In some way, Slaol's inflated self-value is better for mental health.

[Raptorblaze]

Wut. Necroplant normally makes good SD.

But I've gotta warn you people, such discussions promote suicidal thoughts. In some way, Slaol's inflated self-value is better for mental health.

I value all of my moderator colleagues. Suicide is against our rules and you will be fired for it <3

[Necroplant]

Let's talk about the killer now. He took his own life, and a lot of news site commentators wish that he was alive so:

1) He could be tortured slowly and horribly.
2) At a slighter better mercy, "rot" in prison for the rest of his life.
3) Executed.

He surely wouldn't rot in prison, I guarantee you. Prison officials take greater pains than they need to in a concept called "protective custody" if the inmate requires it. They have to feed them three square meals a day. Access to working toilets, a soft mattress, exercise outside and recreational equipment, prison library, you name it. The "victims" (which are the bleeding hearts who are raging over this massacre) would love to see him put in put in jail for the rest of his life at a cost of thousands per year to their own taxes, further increasing the deficit that they love to minge so much about.

Death row costs America more money than regular prisoners based on the appeals process alone, and it's never quick enough. Seven years of praying to God that he dies so that you can have peace lol. Torture? The 9/11 victim families, in an insane lapse of personal morality, loved the fact that the mastermind of the attacks was waterboarded in OVER 100 SESSIONS in order for him to crack. But they hate video footage of American cops tasering a suspect, which is not nearly as horrible as waterboarding. Nation of hypocrites with lack of moral judgement.

I agree whenever a shooter kills himself. Plus, it makes society SO MAD!!!

[Numbertwo]

Let's talk about the killer now. He took his own life, and a lot of news site commentators wish that he was alive so:

1) He could be tortured slowly and horribly.
2) At a slighter better mercy, "rot" in prison for the rest of his life.
3) Executed.


He surely wouldn't rot in prison, I guarantee you. Prison officials take greater pains than they need to in a concept called "protective custody" if the inmate requires it. They have to feed them three square meals a day. Access to working toilets, a soft mattress, exercise outside and recreational equipment, prison library, you name it. The "victims" (which are the bleeding hearts who are raging over this massacre) would love to see him put in put in jail for the rest of his life at a cost of thousands per year to their own taxes, further increasing the deficit that they love to minge so much about.

Death row costs America more money than regular prisoners based on the appeals process alone, and it's never quick enough. Seven years of praying to God that he dies so that you can have peace lol. Torture? The 9/11 victim families, in an insane lapse of personal morality, loved the fact that the mastermind of the attacks was waterboarded in OVER 100 SESSIONS in order for him to crack. But they hate video footage of American cops tasering a suspect, which is not nearly as horrible as waterboarding. Nation of hypocrites with lack of moral judgement.

I agree whenever a shooter kills himself. Plus, it makes society SO MAD!!!

I agree, its better if a mass murderer kills himself. His trial would probably have cost millions and his time in jail even more.

[Necroplant]

I agree, its better if a mass murderer kills himself. His trial would probably have cost millions and his time in jail even more.

Oh yes. Casey Anthony only killed ONE!

Slobodan Milosevic (who here even knows who the fuck he was?) orchestrated the mass-murder of thousands of people in the Bosnian Conflict, but died of natural causes in prison before he could be successfully sentenced by the ICC. The ICC alone loves to sit on their hands, and I don't know what they do exactly in court all day. Saddam Hussein took awhile to sentence as well.

The Dark Knight Shooter, I don't know if he's serving his sentence yet or anything, but I'm sure he probably at some point in the proceedings went "YEAH I DONE IT!", but the court sessions still go on.

Casey Anthony was found INNOCENT, and now they have to use taxpayer dollars to protect her from murderous bleeding-heart Americans.

[Nick]

Hoping that they commit suicide after mass murders? Level 2 thinking.

Think of the lost tax and productivity from the victims and the mass murderer. Shock to the families and general public make them feel ill and reduces their productivity too. And we have yet to include the cost of repairs, medical, counseling, investigation and cleanup.

Preventive actions should be cheaper. Save them from being mass murderers in the first place.

[marinebase7]

He's dead now what does it matter. Not like torturing him to death is going to bring back the children. The question that should be asked is "what can we do to prevent this in the future?" not "How are we going to get revenge on this fucker?"

P.S. I thought you were talking about the Syrian tragedy Necro did you change your focus to the school massacre?

[Numbertwo]

Hoping that they commit suicide after mass murders? Level 2 thinking.

Think of the lost tax and productivity from the victims and the mass murderer. Shock to the families and general public make them feel ill and reduces their productivity too. And we have yet to include the cost of repairs, medical, counseling, investigation and cleanup.

Preventive actions should be cheaper. Save them from being mass murderers in the first place.

A good start would be to make guns illigal. If his mom locked her gun in a safe this might never have happened.

[Nick]

"what can we do to prevent this in the future?"

Always the same question. But I thought the answer given everytime was:


Their sacrifice are a small price to pay for a healthy arms industry. Think of the job loss!

or

Minor collateral damage in the citizen's struggle against potential government tyranny. Freedom must be protected!


And hey! Lets talk about some obscure Middle Eastern and African children instead! Totally different story. Not massacre by mass murderer but conflict and war.

[marinebase7]

It's unrealistic to think you can make guns illegal in U.S. Relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II

$5000 for a bullet would solve problems.

[Slaol]

If this is truly your point of view, the universe won't "care" (not that I was aware the universe had an ability to care but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) whether or not you lived. So from a grand perspective of things, why didn't you kill yourself yet? Whether you are dead or not doesn't matter in the big picture, true. You didn't kill yourself because of your egotistical self value of yourself as can be seen:.

Please feel free to respond to the entire thing. You ask why it is I have yet to kill myself, the universe won't care, matter is still the same, why not? Right? But to suggest that my not being distraught over death means I should just off myself? Your logic and analysis is incredibly weak.
"Aren't upset or worried about death? Better kill yourself."
Sound.
Then you suggest that the only reason I don't do it is that I am egotistical? Trust me, I am egotistical, but the reasons I refuse certain thoughts are not because of my own care for myself. I find your lack of consideration of that angle interesting..

I'm sure Cryptonic values himself more than you do.

Unlike you, Cryptonic is a very smart guy, and I am sure he took my point for what it actually meant.

But it isn't a good POV to live by.

I would disagree heavily that it isn't a good POV to live by. You disregard that at the and I ask us to try to think of things merely in 'right/wrong'. It is impossible for us to completely step out of our human view point and as such things of this nature will always be upsetting, death will always be something we don't want to run into- for us or for others. But it is an incredibly large waste of time to sit here trying to debate which life is worth more or when we should care about death. I do not worry about death. I prefer to worry about life.

But I've gotta warn you people, such discussions promote suicidal thoughts. In some way, Slaol's inflated self-value is better for mental health.

My inflated self value is fact, but in no way one of the reasons I fight through depression. I find no struggle with death, and have already on occasions stepped between someone drunk, angry, and much larger than myself and someone they wanted dead. It isn't my love of self that keeps me around.

[Reemus]

as i see, Killers shouldnt be killed. they must be jailed until the end of their life so they can rethink their world. I am too young to really think about it , but i tried.

[Bruno]

Better them than me.

Lol, honestly. I'm not taking a bullet for little kids.

Sure, they have their whole lives ahead of them, but they also haven't lived much.

I think the killing of middle aged people would be more tragic. They've lived more, have more friends, etc.

[Slaol]

as i see, Killers shouldnt be killed. they must be jailed until the end of their life so they can rethink their world. I am too young to really think about it , but i tried.

For perspective- how young?

[Reemus]

15.

[AppleyNO]

And hey! Lets talk about some obscure Middle Eastern and African children instead! Totally different story. Not massacre by mass murderer but conflict and war.

Thank you. These things are different and I was waiting for someone to say it.

[Necroplant]

Now you guys are bringing up ANOTHER solution they're talking about on comment boards: how to prevent this from happening in the future, when all the shooters are loners with some mental handicap?

Do we jail everybody who has less than 1 friend? Every schizophrenic, every autistic person, etc?

More people die in the U.S of other reasons than mass shootings each year, including vehicular homicide/manslaughter, workplace accidents, and other incidents. Let's also ban people from having jobs and owning cars.

SOLUTION: DO NOTHING! I like this solution, I like it a lot

[Gzz]

Honestely i think that the killers should be imprisoned for life , it might seems soft , but you know , it will end with the executioner's auto-execution if we follow the logic "Kill all killers" ( who is a paradox btw ) .
About Syrian Childrens/20 American Children slained , well , for the first one , it's pity , but we can' t do much now , wait to see the fire soffucates himself ; for the School Massacre , it's complicated , because we should know what were the objectives of the Killer , because so we will know what is the social/pyscho condition who forced that killer to slain 20 kids , but i know sometimes it is more hard because has more deep reasons ( here at Bari , in a school named after a famous magistrate wo captured many mafia members , an element of the mafia had detonate a bomb and he killed 2 girls in the explosion )

[marinebase7]

Please feel free to respond to the entire thing. You ask why it is I have yet to kill myself, the universe won't care, matter is still the same, why not? Right? But to suggest that my not being distraught over death means I should just off myself? Your logic and analysis is incredibly weak.

Well first things first, I didn't bother commenting on the latter portion of your post because I, frankly, agreed with them (especially your last couple statements). The point I was making is regarding to your statement on "universe doesn't care [about the death of children]" which I interpreted it to be something along the lines of "deaths ultimately do not matter (value of 0?) in the grand scheme of things". If I have misinterpreted your point, feel free to correct me.

"Aren't upset or worried about death? Better kill yourself."
Sound.
Then you suggest that the only reason I don't do it is that I am egotistical? Trust me, I am egotistical, but the reasons I refuse certain thoughts are not because of my own care for myself. I find your lack of consideration of that angle interesting..

Indeed I should have probably made this more clear. I didn't suggest that you kill yourself because your lack of fear for death but rather am addressing the point about how you view the deaths to be meaningless. I probably jumped one too many steps so I will ask this to get a better understanding of your perspective: do you also view life to be meaningless?

Unlike you, Cryptonic is a very smart guy, and I am sure he took my point for what it actually meant.

I was using that quote to make the point about how value (of life in this sense) is subjective. Wasn't intending to direct an attack on you for being egotistical though if it came across as that I apologize.

I would disagree heavily that it isn't a good POV to live by. You disregard that at the and I ask us to try to think of things merely in 'right/wrong'. It is impossible for us to completely step out of our human view point and as such things of this nature will always be upsetting, death will always be something we don't want to run into- for us or for others. But it is an incredibly large waste of time to sit here trying to debate which life is worth more or when we should care about death. I do not worry about death. I prefer to worry about life.

Right and I completely agree especially with the bolded part. As I said previously I didn't mention this because I agree with it (see my 1st post I touch on this topic).

I'll admit I am arguing for argument's sake so don't take anything too personally.

[Ash]

I don't really care if 20 children died. There's still a large amount of children that are being educated in the U.S. There will always be horrible tragedies that we can't prevent, only the government can.

Even though I'm Japanese American, I could care less. Many children suffer from other places.

[Slaol]

Words

I do not view life to be meaningless. With death I just focus on keeping things in the right view- the worthwhile part of existence has ended when death happens. I find no reason to worry beyond that.

I actually think this is something having religious family members blessed me with. At every inclusion of death it wasn't about the sadness of the loss or the things that weren't done, but was a the celebration of a completion of life. Not an end, but a completion. My grandmother died 2 weeks ago today. It was upsetting, but because I found out only after that she had always wanted me to write her a poem. I do not fear or worry about death, but knowing that I did not do all that was wanted in someones life is what upset me.

[CmG]

What would Ludwig Feuerbach do?

[Necroplant]

Bless you creedkingz for releasing this topic from the pits of Hell! It needs to accumulate more sin.