Make citizen immune to role block.

[MissingNo]

Gives GF a claim when escort sees immune to rb and it certainly doesnt make citizen op so why not?



Brought in from later post:

You guys are looking at this wrong.

It is irrelevant if you think GF should be role blockable or not. The fact of the matter is that saves have GF's who are not role blockable. [and on a side note, they are non role blockable by default so at least some higher ups believe they should be (i do as well)].

In saves with a role-blockable GF, could you think of any reasons not to do this? It, to an extant, helps with the "your target can not be role blocked=evil" problem and there is no real downside.


As far as the citizen role goes, it doesn't really make it stronger or weaker since while it may lead to some escorts thinking they are GF (or rather, not know that they are not GF) it also means their vest can't be prevented in the case of a consort or bumbling escort. So the (very) small buff/nerf cit receives would even out.


I would also like to add that the removal of un-role blockable detection from escort really ruins their power (since they generally hurt the town more than evil) and this solution is far better for the game as a whole than removing that detection from an escort.

edit: and it could also be an option for a cit instead of always. However, I do think it should be default on.

[creedkingsx]

ehhhhh
Godfather is still able to make a kill.

[Sin]

In a good setup, GF is not immune to RB, so I don't really see the point.

[Damus_Graves]

My thoughts exactly Sin.

[stanoly]

Well but imagine this message if u tried to block citizen

"Ur target is living a happy life with wife and kids, he/she doesnt want an escort" lol.
Could actually be the same message if we think of godfathers as in "The Godfather" movies :P

Well i think it should be that if u make GF non-roleblockable citizens should automaticly show the same message if
escort blocks him/her.

Its like when invest find "citi/sinister" in a setup without citizen (which with public is like all of them) then ur insta lynched...

[Sin]

Its like when invest find "citi/sinister" in a setup without citizen (which with public is like all of them) then ur insta lynched...

Well, it's a bad setup, or it's the paradise for a Jester

No need to make the Escort more powerful I think. It's the one role that can single-handedly destroys the mafia without having to reveal.

[Damus_Graves]

Personally i dont like setups with godfather's in them.
I prefer having straight mind games like Cult saves have

[stanoly]

Well ye well but 9 out of 10 custom games is like that
Might be a bad setup (and i agree with you) BUT thoose are them thats being used

[Sin]

Well ye well but 9 out of 10 custom games is like that
Might be a bad setup (and i agree with you) BUT thoose are them thats being used

America is inferior.

In Soviet Europa, game customs you. And GF can be blocked 9 out of 10 games.

[Damus_Graves]

America is inferior.

In Soviet Europa, game customs you. And GF can be blocked 9 out of 10 games.

Lol?

And Cult saves guys. Cult saves

[stanoly]

America is inferior.

In Soviet Europa, game customs you. And GF can be blocked 9 out of 10 games.

Well i play on EU ^^

Well i agree usually GF can be blocked, but far from always.

[Cryptonic]

In a good setup, GF is not immune to RB, so I don't really see the point.

You're gonna get in trouble when Xen comes home.

[Brendan]

this would make citizen even more op...

[Nick]

this would make citizen even more op...

Nobody can stop me from vesting now!

[MissingNo]

Nobody can stop me from vesting now!

yep, and they will also mistake you for GF more!

[Gzz]

I' m the only who think to place 1-2 sure citi just fro balance the gf immune to detect ( i dind' t do it cause leave train for no reason ) ? For the roleblock , nope , the gf shoul be rb , period , of you place a sure escort , fro balance you will place gf and mafioso ( over a random mafia ) for still trick town

[Xen]

In a good setup, GF is not immune to RB, so I don't really see the point.

This is fail.

In a good setup, the GF is ALWAYS immune to roleblock.

+1 for making Cits display "immune to roleblock" as well

[Damus_Graves]

This is fail.

In a good setup, the GF is ALWAYS immune to roleblock.

+1 for making Cits display "immune to roleblock" as well

While he is right.
I think escort should not be allowed to know if his roleblock was blocked

[Xen]

While he is right.
I think escort should not be allowed to know if his roleblock was blocked

I don't like that feature either.

+1 to removing it from Escort knowledge

[Damus_Graves]

I don't like that feature either.

+1 to removing it from Escort knowledge

obviously +1 from me as well.

[Nick]

yep, and they will also mistake you for GF more!

Nerf citizen moar!
Nerf jester moar!

[Damus_Graves]

Nerf citizen moar!
Nerf jester moar!

You cant without removing them imo.

[Chane]

You cant without removing them imo.

Revove annoy
Remove vest
Remove tie win

[Damus_Graves]

^

that is equal to removing them from game.

[Chane]

^

that is equal to removing them from game.

now that I read it over again, indeed it is lol.

[Damus_Graves]

now that I read it over again, indeed it is lol.

Indeed it is

[MissingNo]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

It is irrelevant if you think GF should be role blockable or not. The fact of the matter is that saves have GF's who are not role blockable. [and on a side note, they are non role blockable by default so at least some higher ups believe they should be (i do as well)].

In saves with a role-blockable GF, could you think of any reasons not to do this? It, to an extant, helps with the "your target can not be role blocked=evil" problem and there is no real downside.


As far as the citizen role goes, it doesn't really make it stronger or weaker since while it may lead to some escorts thinking they are GF (or rather, not know that they are not GF) it also means their vest can't be prevented in the case of a consort or bumbling escort. So the (very) small buff/nerf cit receives would even out.


I would also like to add that the removal of un-role blockable detection from escort really ruins their power (since they generally hurt the town more than evil) and this solution is far better for the game as a whole than removing that detection from an escort.

edit: and it could also be an option for a cit instead of always. However, I do think it should be default on.

[creedkingsx]

This buffs GF.
Which is a role that is fine as it is.

[MissingNo]

This buffs GF.
Which is a role that is fine as it is.

I disagree. It only buffs GF when there is an escort (and cits possible). No other role in the game gets a 100% evil message on a detection immune, role-blockable GF (as long as cits are on).

The whole point of the GF is for him not to be able to be found by simple checks.


On top of that, it only matters when GF is role block immune. Then, if you think he is too strong then, you can always turn off detection immune or turn off invuln at night (or even can kill without mafioso).

Alternatively, you now can turn off if escort sees un-role blockable.

Alternatively still, you could turn it off on the citizen role if you wanted.

[creedkingsx]

Compare GF to SK and tell me that GF needs this.

[MissingNo]

Compare GF to SK and tell me that GF needs this.

read my edit

[Damus_Graves]

Godfather has members to help him win.
Serial Killer/Arson/Mass Murderer Do not.

[MissingNo]

Godfather has members to help him win.
Serial Killer/Arson/Mass Murderer Do not.

Who said otherwise?

[Damus_Graves]

Who said otherwise?

Thats just why i am against this idea

[MissingNo]

Thats just why i am against this idea

Not even close to making sense. Why are you making a comparison of GF and neutral killers?

[creedkingsx]

This requires DR to program something needlessly.
Godfather is like 10 times better than SK.
Godfather is fine, let's not waste DR's time.

[Damus_Graves]

This requires DR to program something needlessly.
Godfather is like 10 times better than SK.
Godfather is fine, let's not waste DR's time.

Conversation Over.

[creedkingsx]

Let's make it so Citizens kill Roleblockers so that when SK kills an Escort that leaves a last will he isn't instantly confirmed.

This is why I am saying to compare to SK.

[McKinley]

Not even close to making sense. Why are you making a comparison of GF and neutral killers?

Because that's the meta of the game. Balance between killing roles, of all factions, which composes the makeup of how games play out.

[MissingNo]

Let's make it so Citizens kill Roleblockers so that when SK kills an Escort that leaves a last will he isn't instantly confirmed.

This is why I am saying to compare to SK.

Well now you are just wrong.

Not only is it unfair to compare GF with SK when SK is never meant to have an equal chance of winning as the mafia, but just as if a jailor leaves a last will for who they jailed, it is always possible (and really not that unlikely) that the real SK happend to attack the escort or jailor the same night they targeted someone else.

[McKinley]

Well now you are just wrong.

Not only is it unfair to compare GF with SK when SK is never meant to have an equal chance of winning as the mafia, but just as if a jailor leaves a last will for who they jailed, it is always possible (and really not that unlikely) that the real SK happend to attack the escort or jailor the same night they targeted someone else.

Incorrect. All factions stand out at an equal chance of victory based on the individual's ability to WIFOM and manipulate. Right now you're trying to turn a role that's meant to be -passive- into a role that affects the very faction he's apart of. Do you see any benefit to making citizen have a useless feature, other than to add balance to a situation you deem as unfair to the Godfather? Generally speaking, hardly -anyone- uses Citizens. If this was added in, even -less- people would want to use Citizens to begin with. Quit making a role that's already frowned upon by public players into an even less attractive role for them. And for those that play the game on a regular basis -- as you've seen presented in this thread -- it's a pointless feature to add. The citizen is a passive role that's meant to lie in the ability to -take one for the team, and be a voter-. Not tip the game around based on WIFOM, and make town want to lynch them even more.

See the logic right now? Your suggestion doesn't have it.

[MissingNo]

This requires DR to program something needlessly.

And I'm no coder/programmer but I would wager all it would require is a copy paste of the role blockable option from any of those roles over to the cit role.

[MissingNo]

Incorrect. All factions stand out at an equal chance of victory based on the individual's ability to WIFOM and manipulate. Right now you're trying to turn a role that's meant to be -passive- into a role that affects the very faction he's apart of. Do you see any benefit to making citizen have a useless feature, other than to add balance to a situation you deem as unfair to the Godfather? Generally speaking, hardly -anyone- uses Citizens. If this was added in, even -less- people would want to use Citizens to begin with. Quit making a role that's already frowned upon by public players into an even less attractive role for them. And for those that play the game on a regular basis -- as you've seen presented in this thread -- it's a pointless feature to add. The citizen is a passive role that's meant to lie in the ability to -take one for the team, and be a voter-. Not tip the game around based on WIFOM, and make town want to lynch them even more.

See the logic right now? Your suggestion doesn't have it.

People who do not use cits are not shooting for a proper game anyways. They give themselves the problem of GF showing cit/sin which is not doing what it is supposed to do (have the GF immune to detection).

People who are trying to have better games (those that will include cits or let them be possible) should respect the whole purpose of GF being undetectable.

The option of escort seeing if target is RB'able or not being implemented PROVES that people, including high up people, agree that GF is supposed to actually be undetectable when the settings have that.

However, that then makes the escort role extremely weak and really just makes it hurt town more than maf.

With my suggestion added in, you can make a save which leaves GF as still undetectable but the escort can still learn something about them (that they are cit or gf/neutkiller).

[MissingNo]

Incorrect. All factions stand out at an equal chance of victory based on the individual's ability to WIFOM and manipulate.

I also think this is wrong. It is simply easier to win as town than it is as Arson. Not really even arguable.

There is also "setup strength" to support my claim.

I suppose the only real definite answer we can have, however, is if DR comes in here and tells us that everyone from role flip is intended to have the same chance of winning.

[creedkingsx]

All non-town factions standout equally, imo.
Town should always win. If town derpy, non-town should always win. simple ^^

Non-Mafia factions have to expose derpy more, but still.

[Damus_Graves]

All non-town factions standout equally, imo.
Town should always win. If town derpy, non-town should always win. simple ^^

The sadness of this is the truth. I swear town is op.

[Sin]

With my suggestion added in, you can make a save which leaves GF as still undetectable but the escort can still learn something about them (that they are cit or gf/neutkiller).

Escort shouldn't be allowed to get any clues at all. Since in most setups (GF non immune to roleblock), she is able to single-handedly disrupt the mafia, especially if the neutral killing roles are quickly identified. Blocking the GF means in 9 games out of 10 (mafioso are uncommon, usually you'll see more of blackmailer/consigliere or framer/janitor) that no townie dies, and it gives all the time in the world to the investigators to identify mafia members.

So I think removing the "immunity to roleblock message" to Escort&Consort would be fair. It only concerns immune GF, escorts/consorts, and vets, who will kill them after they get the message. If the GF is immune to roleblock, the Escort becomes the anti-Sheriff : the townie able to identify only one mafia member, the GF.

[MissingNo]

Since in most setups (GF non immune to roleblock),

GF is usually immune to role block.

edit: Also, it is irrelevant anyway. If it is implemented, you can have the escort option off, GF immune to rb off, and cit immune to rb off in your save.

I can have all 3 on if I want.

[Nick]

First of all, excessive feedback messages are lame. Immune to roleblock can be considered one.

Secondly, Escorts are also immune to roleblock. GF can always claim Escort. Or claim Town role, and say that Escort is Executioner.

On GF being immune to detection. GF is not supposed to be an undetectable unstoppable OP killing machine. Please do not suggest making GF even better by nerfing other roles. Next we will have GF must win over Citizen with win ties over Mafia.

[MissingNo]

Incorrect. All factions stand out at an equal chance of victory based on the individual's ability to WIFOM and manipulate.

All non-town factions standout equally, imo.

Most of the neutrals are around 1.25-1.75. SK is 3, MM is 3.5, Arsonist is 4. I might switch MM and Arsonist.

Town is 1, Mafia is 2 except in 4maf where mafia is 1.75.

just gonna put this here