Framer: make people looks like mafia even at day

[Avadhuta]

We all know Framer's ability to make people looks like mafia at night. But it's not very usefull ability, because it works only against sheriffs. I think, we must enchance this ability with "mafia appearance" of target even at next day. I mean, that if targeted player will be lynched at this day, his revealed role must be mafia-aligned.

If you think, that this ability will be too OP, we can also make framed role revealed after 1 night. I suppose, it must looks like this.

Night 1: Player doctor was framed, sheriff spotted mafia.
Day 2: Player was lynched. His role on graveyard appears to be blackmailer.
Night 2: Player on graveyard appears to be blackmailer.
Day 3: Player on graveyard appears to be doctor. All players see message "True role was revealed".

[Cryptonic]

framers also affect investigators.. just saying.

But I don't really get what you mean.. the town is informed about who was framed a day later? so after like 3 days, there will be 3 town members that a 100% confirmed not to be mafia? I'm not sure if that is what you're saying or not.

[Nick]

Graveyard manipulation.

[Cryptonic]

Graveyard manipulation.

OHHHH
then I think this idea is very nice. It makes so much more sense reading his post now, thank you Nick lmao.

[Chane]

makes a lot of sense when you read it over.

would like to hear DR opinion on this.

[Nick]

makes a lot of sense when you read it over.

would like to hear DR opinion on this.

Too early to bug him about coding when you guys have yet to have a clear idea on what you want.

[Mugy]

I don't like this idea... Seems unfit for the framer. It also kinda of overlaps with janitor, whose job is to confuse the town or conceal evidence.

[Avadhuta]

This idea does not overlap with Janitor abilities. Framer's goal is also to confuse town. But the only one who can see a result are sheriff and investigator. Currently, framing can reduce trust to particular player, because people see different role than was claimed. But graveyard manipulation decrease confidence in current town status. Because, when people think that they have 3 mafia between 6 players or 2 mafia between 6 players this gives different estimation of voting results. So people can reveal their roles because of these estimations. This also can increase disturbance from Jester's or Executioner's slander, because they will looks like legitimate Sheriff.

Also, Janitor can't affect role which was revealed after lynch. Framer will have this ability, so he will get chance to pretend to be sheriff, which target was framed. We can make so, that framing will not work, if target was killed at night. So Janitor will affect night kills, while Framer will work with day kills.

[Nick]

Graveyard manipulation ability is powerful enough to be it's own role. Why not suggest it as a new role instead of adding to Framer?

Janitor is also a graveyard manipulator. Depending on how your suggestion is implemented, it may or may not overlap.

FM players would prefer that Framer fakes Detective/Lookout results first, if any Framer buff is going to be implemented.

[Guardian]

Careful, or you might get on the OP side of things with graveyard manipulation..

Anyways, graveyard manipulation shouldn't fall into framer, because it might make the mafia overly dependent on that role.

This ability will definitely have charges, or else it will be on the far side of OPness.

[MissingNo]

Framer+immune to detect is really strong. If you think framer is weak, turn on immune to detect.

Framer doesn't need anything else.

[agentkronus]

agent

[Yayap]

From a fluff point of view, if the framer can confuse an investigator as to what role a person is, how does the town find out his role when he dies. I like the idea of graveyard manipulation in this manner, would also make coroner more useful.

From a balance point of view, it is very powerful and as much as I like the idea, in a 15 man game with the option of being able to make framer immune to detect (cause we all know someone will turn both options on in his save), I think balancing the role in would be a nightmare.

Overall conclusion: I love the idea, but due to pubs not knowing how to make balanced games, I don't think it is right for sc2, at least not with the option to make Framers immune to detect. FM might incorporate it since Coroners are more prone to be in FMs.

[Auckmid]

Graveyard manipulation would be too OP for a framer option. However, I think it could work well as a completely different role role.

[Slaol]

While a fun idea, this is heftily OP. But could there be a way that the Framer effects how the Detective and Lookout see things?
Like if Detective targets Investigator(Framed), he would see that his target targeted the player that the Mafia killed, even if he targeted someone else? So it works for Framer to have some kind of effect on all investigative roles. Coroner should be immune to this, as Coroner would be royally screwed if he were looking at a Framed night-targets list, and it would make no sense.

[Kain]

How about grave robber? Each day phase he can choose someone from the graveyard and copy their role appearance at night from investigative roles, however he can't target the same grave twice in a row. I dunno.

[Beerwolf]

Mafia already got the Janitor, which is rather strong as it is... having another role, that's pretty good as is already, that can manipulate roles list in the graveyard would be rather OTT, so I'm against this idea.