Cult Discussion Thread: Final Version in SUGGESTIONS FORUM!

[Goonswarm]

This is the cult discussion thread! Here we are going to discuss balance and the abilities of the cult and its members before they are put into the game. Mind you the cult patch is coming after the Amnesiac, so we will have a decent amount of time to discuss these things.

PLEASE provide constructive ideas. I am going to post my changes to what I believe would be the proper application of the cult to the metagame. I am COMPLETELY open to suggestion as when posting this I have likely not thought of every application and many aspects could be overpowered or underpowered.

Cult Leader

Alignment: Cult

Abilities: Recruit someone at night to the cult.
Speak with fellow cultists during the night.
***OPTIONS OPEN FOR DISCUSSION***
- The cult leader may only recruit target that are not immune at night. (Immunity is defined by being passively immune at night or using a bulletproof vest). (Doctor may prevent culting, discussed below)
- The cult leader may speak at night with fellow cultists.
- The cult leader is restricted to X conversions.
- The cult leader may recruit every OTHER day. (You recently performed a ritual to enlist a member of cult. You are too tired to perform a ritual this night) *** This option would limit the rate of conversions and imo add more strategy to the selection of who is recruited. ***
- The cult leader is immune to detection and appears as a citizen.
- If the cult leader attempts to recruit a mason.... I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW PLEASE OFFER SUGGESTION!

Please not ALL these options can not go into the game, I am simply posting options I think should be able to be selected by the host.

*** Upon Death of the Cult Leader ***
- All members of the cult lose the ability to talk during the night. (As the cult leader is the one who ties all cultists)
- Cultists stay cultists and do not revert back to their original roles or gain their abilities back (To prevent players griefing the cult leader)
- The cultists can not recruit additional cultists.

Investigator Check: Leader among men, Mayor/Mason Leader/GF/Cult Leader
Sheriff: Your target is a member of the Cult!

Goal: See the cult obtain the majority of all living people. (Horrible text, sorry)

Cultist

Alignment: Cult

Abilities: Talk with other members of the Cult at night.

***OPTIONS OPEN FOR DISCUSSION***
- Sacrifice yourself to heal the Cult Leader the night of your sacrifice. (This is important as it must be a heal and not an immunity as immunity raises suspicion as 3/5 roles that can be immune at night are unfriendly to town or mafia.) Can not be healed if sacrificed (Like bodyguard being triggered.) This ability also prevents the Cult Leader from dying to a recruit/visit by the mason leader/mason (two options discussed/displayed in the mason/mason leader section.

Cultist Mechanics - NEEDS FEEDBACK, VERY IMPORTANT.
If you are converted to a cultist you lose your previous abilities. You are simply a cultist and can speak at night with other cult members (if cult leader is alive)
If you are converted to a cultist you investigate as a citizen. (Your target is not suspicious, they are likely a Citizen. Or they could be hiding something sinister...)
Or you retain your old investigation description (not sure on this what would be balanced, i like the citizen solution.)
Sheriff check: Your target is a member of the Cult!

Goal: See the cult obtain the majority of all living people. (Horrible text, sorry)


Doctor

New Doctor host option.

- Doctor heals prevent the target from being converted to the cult. (Much like doctor heals prevent suicide, the mechanic would work to prevent targets from being culted.)

Sheriff

New Sheriff host option

- Sheriff can detect members of the cult. "Your target is a member of the Cult!"

Mason Leader

New Mason Leader Mechanics

- Mason leader can visit a target in an attempt to recruit them. The target will not know who the mason leader is, only that they were attempted to be recruited into the masons. The mason leader will know if successful. (More or less in the cult update it is OP for the mafia/town to know who the Mason Leader is if his recruit fails.)

If both the mason leader and a cult leader target a citizen the same night. Mason takes priority and the target becomes a mason (very rare but is balanced imo)

Mason

New Mason Mechanics

- Masons now work like a mafioso to the mason leader. The masons may pick one target to visit at night in an attempt to destroy members of the cult. The Mason visits a target and if that target is cult the target dies. If that target is not cult, the masons are prevented from using this ability the following night and nothing happens. (This is not an attack like a mafia attack.)

*** This ability REQUIRES the Mason Leader to have recruited a mason in order to use. ***

OR should we simply tie this into the mason leader, in that if a mason leader tried to recruit a member of the cult the cult member dies?

Spy

-New spy options!

Can hear cultists at night. - Ascendedone

Questions to be answered outside as well as with of the ideas I have posted above:
1: Is it balanced to have cult able to recruit every night (with a maximum)?
2: Is it balanced to make cultists able to sacrifice themselves to heal the cult leader?
3: Is it balanced for doctors to be able to prevent cult conversions?
4: If the cult leader can recruit every other day is it fair to not have a limit on the number of recruits?
5: Is it balanced to have roles that are immune at night (Godfather/Arson/SK and Vet/Surv/Citizen if vested) be immune to cult conversion.
6: Is it balanced to have masons able to kill cultists in the fashion i described above (this mechanic will be put in, but the means is not clear at this time). If not, what alternative do we have?
7: Is it balanced to have sheriff detect cultists?
8: Is it fair to have the mason leader not be revealed to his target if they are unable to be recruited?
9: What ideas DO you like and DO you want to see go into the game?
10: What happens when a cult leader tries to recruit a mason/mason leader?

The Good Idea Quote Area

- If the cult leader attempts to recruit a mason.... I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW PLEASE OFFER SUGGESTION!

He should find out their identity. Not kill them.
"X tried to preach heresy of false gods to you. He is a Cultist! / The Cult Leader"

[FalseTruth]

Reserved. Will update soon.
My thoughts in beige.

Cult Leader

- The cult leader may only recruit targets that are not immune at night.
This should be implemented. Roles like SK, Arson, GF should not be able to to be converted. To add to this, the cult leader should not be able to convert unique roles: Mayor, GF, ML.

- The cult leader may speak at night with fellow cultists.
Probably the best option. Although I feel this may make them a bit too powerful, a Cult Leader who cannot talk to fellow cultists reduces the skill and strategy needed to play the role.

- The cult leader is restricted to X conversions.
100% yes. If the cult leader is not limited in its conversions, it will be way too strong.

- The cult leader may recruit every OTHER day.
NO. This would make the role a lot more boring and wouldn't really make sense as a restriction anyway. I personally dislike it.

- The cult leader is immune to detection and appears as a citizen.
The cult leader should be leader of men. Maybe DR could add a host option to make him appear as citizen, but I honestly don't see the point.

- If the cult leader attempts to recruit a mason... the mason should receive a notice of who the cult leader is OR be informed that a cult leader tried to convert him, but failed.

*** Upon Death of the Cult Leader ***

- All members of the cult lose the ability to talk during the night.
I don't see how this would be good. If the cultists lose their key recruiting member then they need death chat more than ever to collaborate a strategy to keep themselves alive.

- Cultists stay cultists and do not revert back to their original roles or gain their abilities back (To prevent players griefing the cult leader)
This should be a host option along with "If cult leader dies, all cult die with him"

- The cultists can not recruit additional cultists.
Obviously. If the leader dies, they should not be allowed to recruit further. This is a given.

Cultist

- Sacrifice yourself to heal the Cult Leader the night of your sacrifice.
MAYBE. I honestly think this is a good idea BUT has huge potential for griefing and trolling. It has to be playtested to see if it can work.

Cultist Mechanics

-If you are converted to a cultist you lose your previous abilities.
100% yes. This HAS to be implemented or the cult will be WAY overpowered.

I also think cultists should have a unique role description for both invests and sheriffs.

[Villedge]

*** Upon Death of the Cult Leader ***
- All members of the cult lose the ability to talk during the night. (As the cult leader is the one who ties all cultists)
- Cultists stay cultists and do not revert back to their original roles or gain their abilities back (To prevent players griefing the cult leader)
- The cultists can not recruit additional cultists.

I think that when the Cult Leader dies, either all Cult members die as well or as you said, the Cultists stay Cultists, but cannot recruit.

***OPTIONS OPEN FOR DISCUSSION***
- Sacrifice yourself to heal the Cult Leader the night of your sacrifice. (This is important as it must be a heal and not an immunity as immunity raises suspicion as 3/5 roles that can be immune at night are unfriendly to town or mafia.) Can not be healed if sacrificed (Like bodyguard being triggered.) This ability also prevents the Cult Leader from dying to a recruit/visit by the mason leader/mason (two options discussed/displayed in the mason/mason leader section.

I think that this is potentially a good idea, but it also seems a bit counter-productive seeing as the goal of the Cultists is to become the majority. Also, this would need to be an option for the Cultists and not the Cult Leader, to prevent trolling by sacrificing for no reason.

Cultist Mechanics - NEEDS FEEDBACK, VERY IMPORTANT.
If you are converted to a cultist you lose your previous abilities. You are simply a cultist and can speak at night with other cult members (if cult leader is alive)
If you are converted to a cultist you investigate as a citizen. (Your target is not suspicious, they are likely a Citizen. Or they could be hiding something sinister...)
Or you retain your old investigation description (not sure on this what would be balanced, i like the citizen solution.)
Sheriff check: Your target is a member of the Cult!

I don't know how I feel about losing your previous abilities when recruited. I for one would be pissed off if I was a power role only to be turned into a Cultist with no ability. On the other hand, if Cultists retained their role and ability but their goal was changed, it could easily become overpowered. I think some type of compromise needs to be made, for example: Cultists keep their ability but show up as cult to all investigative roles and only the Cult Leader can speak. Or if Cultists' abilities are removed upon recruitment, then all members of the Cult can speak at night. These are just two examples of trying to keep the cult from being too OP.

- Doctor heals prevent the target from being converted to the cult. (Much like doctor heals prevent suicide, the mechanic would work to prevent targets from being culted.)

I agree with this. How else is the Town supposed to keep their power roles safe?


How I would implement cult:

Cult Leader
-Can recruit X amount of times
-Cannot recruit immune or unique roles
-You can speak to your fellow cultists at night
-Doctor's heal prevents recruitment
-If killed, all Cult members die as well
-Shows up to Sheriff as Cult
-Shows up to Investigator as a Leader among men

Cultist
-You can speak to your fellow cultists at night
-If Cult Leader is killed, all Cultists die as well
-Shows up to Sheriff as not suspicious
-Shows up to Investigator as a citizen

The goal of the cult is to become the faction with majority. When investigated by a Sheriff/Investigator, I think the Cult Leader should show up differently so that the town doesn't waste lynches on every Cult member they find. Because the entire Cult would die with the Cult Leader, it is only important to find and lynch him.

[Numb]

My two suggestions:

1) For sacrificing yourself to protect Cult leader. I think you should only be sacrificed if the cult leader is targeted and maybe have an "offer" and "agree system." Meaning Cult Member A offers to sacrifice self for leader, but have Cult Leader B agree to the offer, otherwise it won't work. You could also have a "suggest" for the leader. Maybe that's too complicated though.

2) "- If the cult leader attempts to recruit a mason.... I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW PLEASE OFFER SUGGESTION!"

My idea would be make Masons the anti-cult. If a cult leader attempts to recruit a mason, automatically reveal the next day one of the cult members (but not the leader). That way there will be larger reinforcement to not attempt to recruit willy-nilly and if a member of the cult does get revealed they have a reason to sacrifice themselves for the leader, since they're basically useless at that point.

[Deolrin]

The doctor heal's preventing cult recruitment sounds good to me.

[Goonswarm]

My two suggestions:

1) For sacrificing yourself to protect Cult leader. I think you should only be sacrificed if the cult leader is targeted and maybe have an "offer" and "agree system." Meaning Cult Member A offers to sacrifice self for leader, but have Cult Leader B agree to the offer, otherwise it won't work. You could also have a "suggest" for the leader. Maybe that's too complicated though.

I like the suggestion but I feel that it is too automated and lacks strategy.

[Zack]

The cult won't be involved in normal games, considering that, any game with the cult involved will also involve Masons.

Niether immunity, nor doctor heals should prevent culting. The only one with that power would be the Mason Leader, while he can convert citizens to Masons he could also protect any role from being converted to Cult. If Mason Leader visits a Cultist he will kill the Cultist, death message "Lynched at night by Masons".

Alternatively the Masons can be changed to work without the Mason Leader (removing the role), so they'd be voting on who to visit at night and one of them will randomly be sent to do the job, similar to the Mafioso's. The actions performed will be as stated above in this case too.

Sheriff should not detect cultists. Its the Masons job to stop the cult.

Now as for the converted roles, I suggest there being a role "Violent Cultist", that votes who to kill at night and goes to kill. Only converted killing roles will become "Violent Cultists", the role can't be entered directly into the setup. The Violent version will be detected by Sheriff though, while normal Cultists won't be. Killing roles are: Vigi, Jailor, Mafioso, Disguiser, SK and Arso. GF can't be converted. Killing cultists can kill Masons.

If a Mafia is recruited to the cult, his mafia buddies will know since he'l vanish from their allies list. The GF who can't be recruited will probably aim to kill his former Mafioso.

Any other role will become a regular cultist who can vote on who to recruit next. There won't be a cult leader, just an initial cultist that will begin the recruiting, and recruiting happens every night, not every 2 nights. Without normal cultists the cult won't be able to recruit anymore, if they have killers they can still kill.

This isn't overpowered if you consider that luck is a big factor in the game, whoever gets checked first, recruited first, visited by masons first, etc. In some games the cult will be wiped night 1, in others they'l dominate the game, it all depends on how things turn out.


Possible Cult-involved setups, to demonstrate:

[1]
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafioso
Sheriff
Doctor
Mason Leader
Mason
Mason
Cultist
Cultist
3x Random Town
1x Non-killer Random Neutral

[2]
Sheriff
Doctor
Mason Leader
Mason
Mafioso
Random non-killing Mafia
Cultist
4x Citizen
1x Random killing Neutral
2x Non-killer Random Neutral

[AscendedOne]

Goonswarm's big post.

Sheriff detects cultist.
Targets do NOT keep their abilities when culted.
Cultist can't recruit masons, mayor, GF and evil neutrals.
Cult leader has option to not be roleblocked, and to appear as citizen.
Spy has option to hear cult.

A game containing a living cult leader will not end if no one dies for 4 days if cult does not have majority.

If cult leader dies, the rest of the cult either returns to their orginal roles or stay culted. Toggled by option.

Masons attempting to recruit will kill the target if it is a cultist but not leader, and prevent the target from being culted that round. Only using a charge if it should kill a cultist or recruit a new mason.

Questions:

1. Yes considering all the targets they can't recruit.
2. I don't see any reason why not.
3. Well theres already alot of targets the cult cant recruit. This may be uncalled for.
4. Yes, but in a game with cult, cult should be main threat not mafia. Should be able to recruit every day.
5. Only if it prevents mason recruiting citizens as well.
6. I believe the maner in which I have described it is fine.
7. Yes.
8. Maybe but only mafia/cult leader. Others would be informed that masons attempted to recruit them.
9. Listed above.
10. Unable to recruit target.

Editting post with my ever changing opinon

[AscendedOne]

Zack.

I disagree with sheriff not detecting cultist, he should at the very least have the option to.

Yaaaa.... no killing cultists..... Considering that the town/mafia count is dropping one every day or 2, having a cultist killing an addtional member of town on top of that would really bite down into town pretty damn quickly.

I would like a system where mafia wouldn't know if their buds were culted. I don't know of a reliable way to do that easily and quickly while still leting the guy speak to both mafia and cult but not at the same time. I guess it is for the best.

[Goonswarm]

The cult won't be involved in normal games, considering that, any game with the cult involved will also involve Masons.
Wrong often times you will see all the neutrals replaced by cult and other non killing neutrals. Cult is amazing and does not
have to have masons in game if sheriff can detect or invest can somehow see cultists/leader.

Niether immunity, nor doctor heals should prevent culting. The only one with that power would be the Mason Leader, while he can convert citizens to Masons he could also protect any role from being converted to Cult. If Mason Leader visits a Cultist he will kill the Cultist, death message "Lynched at night by Masons".
That is going to lead to massive griefing. You need to imagine a pub game where 1 mafia gets culted and the others constantly think that the mafia is trolling trying to fuck them up and get them killed. It will happen with sub roles, but the core roles if they are immune at night they are immune to being culted. I really like the lynched at night by masons death description however.

Alternatively the Masons can be changed to work without the Mason Leader (removing the role), so they'd be voting on who to visit at night and one of them will randomly be sent to do the job, similar to the Mafioso's. The actions performed will be as stated above in this case too.

Sheriff should not detect cultists. Its the Masons job to stop the cult.
Not every cultist game is meant to have masons. Sheriff can have this option turned on or off.

Now as for the converted roles, I suggest there being a role "Violent Cultist", that votes who to kill at night and goes to kill. Only converted killing roles will become "Violent Cultists", the role can't be entered directly into the setup. The Violent version will be detected by Sheriff though, while normal Cultists won't be. Killing roles are: Vigi, Jailor, Mafioso, Disguiser, SK and Arso. GF can't be converted. Killing cultists can kill Masons.
I don't think that DR will agree with this at all. Cultists more or less hollow roles out. Anyways i doubt that will go live. Cult can already do many things to reach majority and abuse the lynch.

If a Mafia is recruited to the cult, his mafia buddies will know since he'l vanish from their allies list. The GF who can't be recruited will probably aim to kill his former Mafioso.
Not sure how this will work, I would honestly think that there would need to be some way to talk with either one. Or the mafia one would simply be silent for them. Finally the cult needs to be careful on who they recruit. This is one of the more pressing questions and needs to be answered by DR in regards to what is actually possible with coding shit in.

Any other role will become a regular cultist who can vote on who to recruit next. There won't be a cult leader, just an initial cultist that will begin the recruiting, and recruiting happens every night, not every 2 nights. Without normal cultists the cult won't be able to recruit anymore, if they have killers they can still kill.
I honestly like the idea of a cult leader just as a mason leader exists. It is the same role in function with a slightly different result. It makes the cult more fun and dynamic.

This isn't overpowered if you consider that luck is a big factor in the game, whoever gets checked first, recruited first, visited by masons first, etc. In some games the cult will be wiped night 1, in others they'l dominate the game, it all depends on how things turn out.

[Zack]

If the Cult absorbs killing roles they could potentially end all killing in the game. What would happen in such a case? If they can't achieve a majority in 3 days time the town will win. Thats why I suggested killing cultists.

Unless, a cult recruitment counts the same as a kill, in terms of stopping the tie-game situation?

Could make it so the cult can recruit OR kill, but not take both actions the same night. In the end, the decision is up to DR.

[Goonswarm]

Reduce text size?

I couldn't fucking read it otherwise lol.

[Elixir]

Very similar to masons... I liked how cult could have power roles... but I guess thats just too darn op huh

- If the cult leader attempts to recruit a mason.... I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW PLEASE OFFER SUGGESTION!

He should find out their identity. Not kill them.

"X tried to preach heresy of false gods to you. He is a Cultist! / The Cult Leader"

[Henry]

I think this would be fitting, given the role: Cult Leader can direct the votes of the cult members. And, to make this even more of a mindfuck, you could order the cult members to kill each other in a variety of ways during the night (shooting each other with a high powered rifle, stabbed to death, etc) as to confuse town.

I'm probably just adding to the complexity/confusion of this role and not really helping :P

[Goonswarm]

If the Cult absorbs killing roles they could potentially end all killing in the game. What would happen in such a case? If they can't achieve a majority in 3 days time the town will win. Thats why I suggested killing cultists.

Unless, a cult recruitment counts the same as a kill, in terms of stopping the tie-game situation?

Could make it so the cult can recruit OR kill, but not take both actions the same night. In the end, the decision is up to DR.

This is why I feel it is important to not be able to recruit immune at night roles, so if you have an immune @ night GF (which most games do) and a sk/arson (which my game has one or the other, always immune at night) that solves that problem right there.

I think this would be fitting, given the role: Cult Leader can direct the votes of the cult members. And, to make this even more of a mindfuck, you could order the cult members to kill each other in a variety of ways during the night (shooting each other with a high powered rifle, stabbed to death, etc) as to confuse town.

I'm probably just adding to the complexity/confusion of this role and not really helping :P

Every time you post an Idea think of how pubbies would use it, or how it could be used to grief. No thanks lol. Keep up the suggestions tho, LOVE THE FEEDBACK TY!

[Raiden]

I will use FalseTruth format, i like it.

Cult Leader

- The cult leader may only recruit targets that are not immune at night.
I feel it would be more balanced and fun to prevent conversion for all neutral roles (both good and evil), but not mafia.

- The cult leader may speak at night with fellow cultists.
Yes. Not allowing this calls for a game of chance instead of strategy.

- The cult leader is restricted to X conversions.
Yes, as a toggleable option.

- The cult leader may recruit every OTHER day.
Yes, as a toggleable option to use in non-standard setups

- The cult leader is immune to detection and appears as a citizen.
Cult leader should not be immune to sheriff detection, but cultists should. I will talk about investigator later.

- If the cult leader attempts to recruit a mason...
Masons should be uncultable and should be notified that someone tried to recruit them, but not who did.

*** Upon Death of the Cult Leader ***

- All members of the cult lose the ability to talk during the night.
Yes. Cult must basically lose when the leader dies, unless he recruited so many people that the game doesn't make sense anymore.

- Cultists stay cultists and do not revert back to their original roles or gain their abilities back (To prevent players griefing the cult leader)
Yes, cultists must try their best to defend their leader against all kind of odds.

- The cultists can not recruit additional cultists.
Yes, of course.

Cultist

- Sacrifice yourself to heal the Cult Leader the night of your sacrifice.
Hmm... ultimately, no. The Cult Leader must pick the correct roles to prevent this.

Cultist Mechanics

-If you are converted to a cultist you lose your previous abilities.
No. All my previous statements point toward the fact that the cult leader must pick his target carefully because of their abilities.

My Suggestions

Investigation result: your target is a member of a secret organization. It might be a mason, but also a cultist.
This would override the standard investigation result if the target is a cultist. Also applies to the cult leader.

Host Option: start with X random targets already culted
For non standard setups, for example town vs cult with no mafia or neutrals.

Mason Mechanics: kill a cultist when you try to recruit him. Does not apply to cult leader.
Required for my setup to be balanced. Also masons deserve more power. Remember that when a mason fails to recruit, the recipient is notified that the mason tried to recruit him, and knows his name. This applies when they visit cult leader as well.

Mafia/Cult Behavior:

• Mafia should be able to target each other when cult is implemented. I know this may lead to griefing, but how else could mafia win if cult is present?
• When the unculted GF sends the culted mafioso to kill a culted target, the mafioso is automatically roleblocked. This does not apply when he's controlled by a witch or bus driver.

[Goonswarm]

I will use FalseTruth format, i like it.

Cultist Mechanics

-If you are converted to a cultist you lose your previous abilities.
No. All my previous statements point toward the fact that the cult leader must pick his target carefully because of their abilities.

My Suggestions

Investigation result: your target is a member of a secret organization. It might be a mason, but also a cultist.
This would override the standard investigation result if the target is a cultist. Also applies to the cult leader.
This should not apply to the cult leader, cult leader needs to be leader among men and share that descriptions with the mayor/gf/mason leader.


Mason Mechanics: kill a cultist when you try to recruit him. Does not apply to cult leader.
Required for my setup to be balanced. Also masons deserve more power. Remember that when a mason fails to recruit, the recipient is notified that the mason tried to recruit him, and knows his name. This applies when they visit cult leader as well.
I feel that masons should be able to kill cultists yes. The other thing is that i don't think that if you recruit a mason/cultist you should be revealed yet. I also think that if you try to cult a mason, it should inform you that you failed as they are part of a secret society and did not take to your ways.
Mafia/Cult Behavior:

• Mafia should be able to target each other when cult is implemented. I know this may lead to griefing, but how else could mafia win if cult is present?
• When the unculted GF sends the culted mafioso to kill a culted target, the mafioso is automatically roleblocked. This does not apply when he's controlled by a witch or bus driver.

I honestly feel that you should not keep your old abilities if you are culted. It would be EXTREMELY op. Either that or cult would be massively limited in regards to recruiting. Think about culting a vigi or jailor and how frustrating that would be for town. Cultists simply act as hollow branches for the cult leader. Their only goal to protect him and stay alive to gain majority.

[Raiden]

This should not apply to the cult leader, cult leader needs to be leader among men and share that descriptions with the mayor/gf/mason leader.

Yes, i agree to this. I forgot about mason leader. It's ok if the two share the same result.

I feel that masons should be able to kill cultists yes. The other thing is that i don't think that if you recruit a mason/cultist you should be revealed yet. I also think that if you try to cult a mason, it should inform you that you failed as they are part of a secret society and did not take to your ways.

Agreed, i meant that only the mason is revealed when he tries to recruit a non-citizen. But we can revert that as well.

I honestly feel that you should not keep your old abilities if you are culted. It would be EXTREMELY op. Either that or cult would be massively limited in regards to recruiting. Think about culting a vigi or jailor and how frustrating that would be for town. Cultists simply act as hollow branches for the cult leader. Their only goal to protect him and stay alive to gain majority.

If you get a vigi the first two days, chances are that you lack the added survivability of doctor and bodyguard, the intel support of investigating roles, the power of roleblock, and you will be playing against organized mafia. Assuming you manage to survive, you need at least 2 night to be as strong as mafia is by day 1. Furthermore, masons (in my suggested setup) will kill cultists regardless of their role. How is that op? Of course you can also limit the recruits available to the leader.

Question: how would you handle culted mafia if all roles lose their previous abilities?

[oops_ur_dead]

Some things I think should be added that may have not been touched on:
1) Host option: All cultists die the night after the cult leader dies.
2) Host option: Any cultist can sacrifice themselves to protect any other cult member.
3) Only the cult leader should be able to recruit, and his identity is given away if he tries to recruit a mason. This prevents the cult from being too imba.
4) When a mason tries to recruit a cult member, both players die.

[Ruffles]

What's so good about being a cultist then, other than the fact that it is almost like being a mason with a mason leader?

Or is this a completely different team?

[oops_ur_dead]

What's so good about being a cultist then, other than the fact that it is almost like being a mason with a mason leader?

That you keep your original role, too?

[AscendedOne]

Some things I think should be added that may have not been touched on:
1) Host option: All cultists die the night after the cult leader dies.
2) Host option: Any cultist can sacrifice themselves to protect any other cult member.
3) Only the cult leader should be able to recruit, and his identity is given away if he tries to recruit a mason. This prevents the cult from being too imba.
4) When a mason tries to recruit a cult member, both players die.

1. I'm not really sure how the best way to respond to this is.... I do think it's fairly stupid for an arsonist to burn 3 targets and one of them just happens to be a cult leader and further kill 3 more targets.
2. Only if the cultist should die regardless of outcome.
3. I kinda thought that was a given, although being revealed might be to big of a punishment.
4. Considering that the mason group will likely be smaller then the cult group I'd say it would be kinda ridiculous for this result to happen.

That you keep your original role, too?

That would be OP for such a small game size.

[oops_ur_dead]

That would be OP for such a small game size.

Which is why some of the suggestions I made are also stacked against the cult. If the cultists lose their roles, then it just becomes another mason group.

[Elixir]

That would be OP for such a small game size.

Which is why some of the suggestions I made are also stacked against the cult. If the cultists lose their roles, then it just becomes another mason group.

Agree... should just limit recruits to 1 2 or 3 and have 4th option immune at night or something to the Leader

[Goonswarm]

Some things I think should be added that may have not been touched on:
1) Host option: All cultists die the night after the cult leader dies.
2) Host option: Any cultist can sacrifice themselves to protect any other cult member.
3) Only the cult leader should be able to recruit, and his identity is given away if he tries to recruit a mason. This prevents the cult from being too imba.
4) When a mason tries to recruit a cult member, both players die.

I like the first 3 options but number 4 sucks imo.
Masons should triumph over cultists in all ways. Honestly all that cultists have to fear is masons (if even in the game). If a mason tries to recruit a cult member that is their way of killing off cult members, the cultist dies and the mason lives. Death description "He was lynched at night by a secret society."

[Goonswarm]

That would be OP for such a small game size.

Which is why some of the suggestions I made are also stacked against the cult. If the cultists lose their roles, then it just becomes another mason group.

Agree... should just limit recruits to 1 2 or 3 and have 4th option immune at night or something to the Leader

If we had 1-2-3 recruits with kept ability, then imo it is fair if the cult leader dies all cultists die as well. That balanced out the night immunity and cultists keeping abilities.

[AscendedOne]

Oh and killing the cult leader should roleblock him kinda like disguiser, as it would suck as a vigil to kill the leader but then sucide cuz he recruited you.

[Goonswarm]

Oh and killing the cult leader should roleblock him kinda like disguiser, as it would suck as a vigil to kill the leader but then sucide cuz he recruited you.

Recruitment of any type is the final action @ night. So if anyone is attacked the recruitment will fail if they die.

[AscendedOne]

Most roles are still able to perform their action regardless of if they were alive long enough to pull it off. Like bus driver visiting veteran. The bus driver goes to B's house to pick up then to the veteran to drop him off, and the veteran doesn't stuff a grenade down his throat intill after he gets dropped off at the other house or he does it before hand and his inanimate corspe somehow still drives the bus.

[Deolrin]

Or is this a completely different team?

Yes, yes it is, a completely different team with a unique win-goal, which is exactly why roles can't keep their powers. Imagine a whole Mafia culted; Not only does the MAFIA know who else is Mafia, the CULT also knows exactly who ISN'T mafia OR cult... AND they can kill at night, too. Or, for example, if a Vigilante and a Doctor are recruited; The doctor heals the cult leader and the Vigilante shoots at random, except he NEVER can target a cultist. Or even worse... A cult Arsonist teamed up with a cult Doctor - Imagine how destructive that would be!
Cultists should never retain their abilities. Cult Leader should be revealed if trying to recruit a Mason or Mason Leader. Cultists should be lynched at night if trying to recruit a Mason or Mason Leader. (So that 1st night the Cult Leader can't die to mason, but once he has cultist underlings, the danger becomes greater)

[Raiden]

Neutrals should really be excluded from culting. What if an arsonist has doused a cultist or worse yet the leader and then is recruited? What if the executioner has a cultist as a target?

[Goonswarm]

Neutrals should really be excluded from culting. What if an arsonist has doused a cultist or worse yet the leader and then is recruited? What if the executioner has a cultist as a target?

Neutrals should not be excluded from culting. You can make certain neutrals immune to culting with night immunity (sk/arson). However it would imo be a waste for cult to recruit the other neutrals as the Witch/Survivor/Executioner can all by their goal win with the cult. On top of that the jester simply does not give a fuck as long as he is lynched. A good way to push the majority to have a cult win.

[Raiden]

Neutrals should really be excluded from culting. What if an arsonist has doused a cultist or worse yet the leader and then is recruited? What if the executioner has a cultist as a target?

Neutrals should not be excluded from culting. You can make certain neutrals immune to culting with night immunity (sk/arson). However it would imo be a waste for cult to recruit the other neutrals as the Witch/Survivor/Executioner can all by their goal win with the cult. On top of that the jester simply does not give a fuck as long as he is lynched. A good way to push the majority to have a cult win.

Well, that is assuming that rule goes in, and even then i wouldn't like to play with invulnerable sk and arsons in my setups.

Also, what about culted mafia? I asked you in one of my previous posts. If cultists lose their role and abilities, what happens to mafia power roles? If they retain abilities, how can the mafia get rid of their culted members?

[Goonswarm]

Neutrals should really be excluded from culting. What if an arsonist has doused a cultist or worse yet the leader and then is recruited? What if the executioner has a cultist as a target?

Neutrals should not be excluded from culting. You can make certain neutrals immune to culting with night immunity (sk/arson). However it would imo be a waste for cult to recruit the other neutrals as the Witch/Survivor/Executioner can all by their goal win with the cult. On top of that the jester simply does not give a fuck as long as he is lynched. A good way to push the majority to have a cult win.

Well, that is assuming that rule goes in, and even then i wouldn't like to play with invulnerable sk and arsons in my setups.

Also, what about culted mafia? I asked you in one of my previous posts. If cultists lose their role and abilities, what happens to mafia power roles? If they retain abilities, how can the mafia get rid of their culted members?

Again that is one of the more delicate issues that needs to have imput by DR, he knows what can and can not be coded. How do you have a member of the mafia who is culted not be immediately outed or killed by his fellow mafia.

I feel the BEST way to solve this issue is by doing one of a few things:
1: Allow the members who are culted to retain their previous abilities (would be open for MASSIVE griefing and trolling potential which I do not like).
2: The mafia members who lose their abilities will be able to talk with mafia at night, but this presents a problem, how do you talk at night with the mafia and with the cult at the same time. Somehow if possible you should be able to do both. Then again HOW the FUCK do you make a culted mafia not appear suspicious to the mafia members and at the same time be an asset to the cult? Fucking hell this is a tough one...
3: Mabye a culted mafia member could speak to the mafia at night and still target someone with their ability but it would not have an effect. If this is the case then mafia would have to lynch a fellow culted mafia at day. HOWEVER THIS COULD BE GOOD, AS IT WOULD ALLOW MAFIA TO APPEAR AS A TOWN INVESTIGATIVE ROLE.
4: Mafia should not be able to kill another mafia at night, the cultist must be lynched with the towns help.


This is honestly the most debated issue imo. Do culted roles keep their abilities, how would mafia deal with a culted role, what the hell do you do make a mafia member not suspicious if culted to his fellow mafia?

My biggest fear is that people will use and abuse cult roles as an excuse to troll or fuck with other members of their team. Maybe making all cult roles die if the cult leader dies is good and give the cult leader night immunity... Idk...

[someguy]

I've been thinking about the balance between cult leader and mason leader and at first I was thinking that if the mason leader tried to recruit the cult leader then the mason leader should die. However playing out a few games in my head it would be too easy for ML to simply say "converting x" and then if he dies that night masons know who the cult leader is.

So an idea I've been toying around with is if ML tries to recruit the CL the ML could get a return of "You're target has cut out your tongue to punish you for your blasphemy! (or something along these lines)" and makes the ML bm'd for the rest of the game, including at night. This can still give a group of coordinated masons an edge in flushing out cultist but will also give cultist a chance to troll back to protect themselves during the day. Then if the CL narrowly avoids a lynch they can use the cultist sacrifice to protect the CL from night kills.

I've also been toying with the idea of if the CL gets lynched then one of the cultist gets the ability to perform one night execution (determined the same way how the game decides between which mafia to promote to mafioso after gf death). The death script can be some text about the person dying in ritual sacrifice to bring back the dead, as the cult is trying to summon their leader from the graveyard. Obviously they don't actually accomplish this. Standard heals and immunity checks would counter this kill. I like this option a lot because basically once the CL is gone the cult is frozen and don't have anything active they can do to try and win the game beyond trolling and voting with no protected members anymore so this will give them one last hurrah at trying to even the odds, specially if the CL was only able to recruit one or two members before dying.

What do you guys think?

[oops_ur_dead]

What would stop the Mason Leader from having some sort of password established, that they say at the start of every night? Then, they can say "Recruiting x" and if they don't say the password the next night, the masons know that x is the cult leader.

[morf]

Personally I think it would be amusing if all cult members become amnesiacs after the cult leader's death.

[someguy]

What would stop the Mason Leader from having some sort of password established, that they say at the start of every night? Then, they can say "Recruiting x" and if they don't say the password the next night, the masons know that x is the cult leader.

There isn't anything but in this situation if the masons manage to get the CL on to the stands he can just say that the ML was bm'd and the town is making a mistake blah blah blah. Also you could end up with the case where the ML tries to recruit some one and there really is a bm who bms him. There are cases where the ML tries to recruit some one but can't and that person is friendly to town but if the ML is bm'd then town could end up dogpile lynching a townie so masons would need to be cautious about jumping the gun on just automatically saying "ML is bm'd therefore x is CL lynch!"

This isn't meant to make it foolproof for the cult but it is meant to help give them a little bit of an edge while still leaving it up to the skill of the players to decide the ultimate outcome of the encounter which I think is fair. Plus this could always be tweaked to make it fit better, this is just the raw idea.

[Goonswarm]

What would stop the Mason Leader from having some sort of password established, that they say at the start of every night? Then, they can say "Recruiting x" and if they don't say the password the next night, the masons know that x is the cult leader.

There isn't anything but in this situation if the masons manage to get the CL on to the stands he can just say that the ML was bm'd and the town is making a mistake blah blah blah. Also you could end up with the case where the ML tries to recruit some one and there really is a bm who bms him. There are cases where the ML tries to recruit some one but can't and that person is friendly to town but if the ML is bm'd then town could end up dogpile lynching a townie so masons would need to be cautious about jumping the gun on just automatically saying "ML is bm'd therefore x is CL lynch!"

This isn't meant to make it foolproof for the cult but it is meant to help give them a little bit of an edge while still leaving it up to the skill of the players to decide the ultimate outcome of the encounter which I think is fair. Plus this could always be tweaked to make it fit better, this is just the raw idea.

I really don't like the idea of the cult leader being able to kill the Masons/Mason Leader in ANY way other than lynching. I feel that it is much easier to establish cult than it is masons and it would be foolish for the cult to be able to stop them as they are the superior faction. Finally I think that if you are to have cult able to kill masons, then masons must be able to recruit like the cult can. Without restriction except to immune roles.

[Auckmid]

You could always make it so the Cult can't recruit Night 1. That way it can still win, but Cult will never be so big.

[MileS]

Addressing Goon's questions and adding my idea for cult implementation:
1: Is it balanced to have cult able to recruit every night (with a maximum)?
Yes, and with the killing power often present in SC2 mafia games it'd probably be pretty common that cultists get killed off quickly as well.

2: Is it balanced to make cultists able to sacrifice themselves to heal the cult leader?
No, I feel that if the cult leader is discovered then there should be no way for the cult to delay his death

3: Is it balanced for doctors to be able to prevent cult conversions?
Yes, but it should be an option.

4: If the cult leader can recruit every other day is it fair to not have a limit on the number of recruits?
Yes, because the cult will probably be quite small.

5: Is it balanced to have roles that are immune at night (Godfather/Arson/SK and Vet/Surv/Citizen if vested) be immune to cult conversion.
Yes, I think so.

6: Is it balanced to have masons able to kill cultists in the fashion i described above (this mechanic will be put in, but the means is not clear at this time). If not, what alternative do we have?
I'm not a huge fan of needing Masons to fight the cult, but I think it's balanced.

7: Is it balanced to have sheriff detect cultists?
Yes.

8: Is it fair to have the mason leader not be revealed to his target if they are unable to be recruited?
Yes.

9: What ideas DO you like and DO you want to see go into the game?
I like the cultists not retaining their roles.

10: What happens when a cult leader tries to recruit a mason/mason leader?
IMO, nothing should happen. I don't think the Masons and Cult necessarily need to be tied together.

I think the Cult would work best like this:
The Cult Leader chooses one player to attempt to convert each night. If that player is Mafia, the Cult Leader dies. If that player is a Mason, nothing happens. A potential option could be that the Serial Killer and/or other neutrals kills the Cult Leader if he attempts to recruit them. If that player is a town or neutral role, they become a Cultist. If the Cult Leader dies, the Cult can no longer recruit, but can still talk at night. Another potential option could be that the eldest surviving Cult member becomes the new leader. The recruitment should still go through on the night the Cult Leader dies if he is killed at night.

Cultists have no night ability and win by the cult being the last surviving faction. They can talk with other cultists at night. Mason recruitments do nothing to Cultists. I think that having Cultists/Cult Leader be detectable should be a host option, as well as healing/immunity blocking recruitment.

Potential variation - Cultists know only who the cult leader is, but not other cultists. Obviously the Cult Leader can name the Cult members in night chat, but that puts them at risk to the Spy. I think this could be a fun option, but shouldn't be the default setup.

My implementation removes all the problems with multiple night chats by excluding Mafia and Masons from being recruited. It also curtails the cult recruitment since they have to be careful not to recruit Mafia, or the Cult Leader dies. Masons are not able to kill the cult. Until the forum mafia game, I've actually never seen a Cult that's vulnerable to Mason recruiting. Instead of fearing Masons, the Cult fears the Mafia instead. While this makes it more likely that the Cult Leader dies early and the Cult does nothing, that's just the nature of the Cult - it dies a miserable death early, or it grows and dominates the game. However, because of the increased chance of death, losing the Cult Leader doesn't carry the steep penalty of having additional Cultists die. I feel that Cultists should not retain their previous roles because it really overpowers the Cult, IMO.

[Goonswarm]

I think the Cult would work best like this:
The Cult Leader chooses one player to attempt to convert each night. If that player is Mafia, the Cult Leader dies. If that player is a Mason, nothing happens. A potential option could be that the Serial Killer and/or other neutrals kills the Cult Leader if he attempts to recruit them. If that player is a town or neutral role, they become a Cultist. If the Cult Leader dies, the Cult can no longer recruit, but can still talk at night. Another potential option could be that the eldest surviving Cult member becomes the new leader. The recruitment should still go through on the night the Cult Leader dies if he is killed at night.
I think that it is not fair to the town that mafia being converted kills cult. Mafia is just as much a target as the town and other neutrals. Recruitment always happens as the final action so if the cult leader dies the recruitment will fail. This is a confirmed mechanic.
Cultists have no night ability and win by the cult being the last surviving faction. They can talk with other cultists at night. Mason recruitments do nothing to Cultists. I think that having Cultists/Cult Leader be detectable should be a host option, as well as healing/immunity blocking recruitment.

Potential variation - Cultists know only who the cult leader is, but not other cultists. Obviously the Cult Leader can name the Cult members in night chat, but that puts them at risk to the Spy. I think this could be a fun option, but shouldn't be the default setup.

My implementation removes all the problems with multiple night chats by excluding Mafia and Masons from being recruited. It also curtails the cult recruitment since they have to be careful not to recruit Mafia, or the Cult Leader dies. Masons are not able to kill the cult. Until the forum mafia game, I've actually never seen a Cult that's vulnerable to Mason recruiting. Instead of fearing Masons, the Cult fears the Mafia instead. While this makes it more likely that the Cult Leader dies early and the Cult does nothing, that's just the nature of the Cult - it dies a miserable death early, or it grows and dominates the game. However, because of the increased chance of death, losing the Cult Leader doesn't carry the steep penalty of having additional Cultists die. I feel that Cultists should not retain their previous roles because it really overpowers the Cult, IMO.
[color=yellow]The mafia solution is solid, I like it but it needs to be different as Mafia are the target of the cult as much as town. Masons do kill cult, that is an intended mechanic that DR has expressed is going to be implemented. The details are unclear however on the exact workings of it. I agree with the roles recruited by the cult becoming basic cultists and losing their abilities. Otherwise the cult becomes an insane powerhouse. It can depend however, but i feel this is the best way as people could use their old abilities to grief others. (Example a sheriff is recruited and a mafia member as well that the sheriff was trying to get lynched.)

[Goonswarm]

Bumping this as the cult will be put in now that there is more space for roles. Going to post a summary and conclusions after re-reading it. If anyone has any other input please state it.

[Ozymandias]

I think it should be the same as the WCIII one. Can recruit anyone, bar the GF. Can't talk with recruits. Of course there would be options.

[Elixir]

It has to recruit all roles or else its another Mason faction.

I still think they should be able to keep their old abilities but the Cult Leader must be restricted in the number of recruits they get and there needs to be a limit of 1 leader for obvious reasons... an option for them to not come on randoms as well would probably be needed. There should be no option for recruited cultists to become a cult leader and half of the cult (rounding up) should commit suicide the night following the cult leaders death (or on the same night if the leader gets killed... kinda like how the Executioner becomes a jester on the same night his target is killed).

Probably dont need a cultist class as such, just a Cult Leader and then purple colors for every class so if you kill a culted vigilante, you would see

Their Role Was : Vigilante

4 options something like:

- Limited to 2 Recruits
- Limited to 3 Recruits (Default)
- Limited to 4 Recruits
- Excluded from Randoms


On the masons:

Cult Leader trying to recruit a mason should fail and the mason should learn the cult leaders identity, not kill him.

Mason killing cultists should only occur if a Mason Leader attempts to recruit a cultist who is not the cult leader. Mason Leader attempting to recruit the Cult Leader? IDK mason leader finds him out?

[Zack]

I think I agree on keeping original roles, it makes games with a cult very diffrent from normal games. This is probably quite difficult to implemented for DR however, since if i'm not mistaken alignment for each role is set in stone. Meaning DR would have to create a cult-clone of each possible role... That can't be easy, and definatley not fun.

[Goonswarm]

Somewhat final version in suggestions forum along with ritualist. My spin on a cult special role.