Random roles, a breakdown

[ALL HAIL CTHULHU]

NOTE 2: I sent the following to an active member of the discussion 2 days ago (not naming names) in hopes of getting it added to the discussion or posted to R&D where it really should be. I got no response so I'm just going to post this here, whatever. We've already had some days to see that saves are kinda... weird with things like escort as protective (when they can't protect) and BG as killer (when they can't target scum). I hope that this post makes sense of that weirdness.

NOTE 1: I know that this may be too little too late.. but here's a very detailed breakdown of role category splits for your perusal (that I was actually drafting before the R&D thread became public):

The random roles should be organized in such a way that it is easy and intuitive to make a save where random variation does not affect game balance. This can be best achieved through putting roles into categories where they are interchangeable without changing the overall velocity of the game. In addition, a player who is new should be able to predict which category each role should fall under if they know all the categories. This means the split must be intuitive in addition to being functional in order to be effective. In my opinion, this is the biggest failing of the basic/adv split as it is not intuitive if a given role is basic or advanced.

Lets break it down, starting with neutrals.

Plotting Neutral
Game Effect: Win condition relies on misinforming town and eventually killing someone
May hurt town more than scum by wasting lynches and confusing days
-Jester
-Exec

Benign Neutral:
Game Effect: Has no explicit ties to any faction
Any faction can "recruit" them through clever play. They are swing votes.
-Survivor
-Amnesiac

Evil Neutral:
Game Effect: Primarily self-centric play results in generally harder play for everyone else.
Relies on day lynching to achieve their goals (and falls back on night mechanics)
-Witch
-Cult
-Arsonist

Killing Neutral
Game Effect: Goal is to kill everyone else
Relies on night killing mechanics to achieve goals
-Serial Killer
-Mass Murderer
-Arsonist

Random Neutral:
-Exclude Killers [ ]
-Exclude Evil [ ]
-Exclude Benign [ ]
-Exclude Plotting [ ]

Protective Town
Game Effect: Protects one role from death through some mechanic
Allows role claims in town by making mafia kills on claimed roles have high chance to fail
-Doctor
-Bodyguard
-Bus Driver

Investigative Town:
Game Effect: Allows town to collect confirmed information in order to better deduce the truth
-Sheriff
-Invest
-Lookout
-Detective
-Spy
-Coroner

Town Hitters:
Game Effect: Allows town to strike back at scum through means of blocking or killing
The higher the number of these present, the more people who are suspicious during the day will be messed with
-Jailor
-Escort
-Vigilante

Town Leader
Game Effect: These town help to control the day vote and survive to see the mafia lose in the end.
Through some means of extra survivability or confirmability, these town own the day.
-Mayor
-Citizen
-Mason Leader
-Mason
-Veteran

Random Town:
-Exclude Core [ ]
-Exclude Hitters [ ]
-Exclude Investigative [ ]
-Exclude Protective [ ]

Mafia Saboteur:
Game Effect: Suppress and deal with troublesome town
These roles help counter confirmed or otherwise dangerous town
-Consort
-Blackmailer

Mafia Deception
Game Effect: Undermines the town's ability to get correct information
Helps counter investigative roles and role calling
-Framer
-Janitor
-Disguiser

Mafia Support:
Game Effect: Helps ensure that kills go smoothly or hit the best targets
-Mafioso
-Consigliere

Random Mafia:
-Exclude Saboteur [ ]
-Exclude Subverter [ ]
-Exclude Supporter [ ]

[Nick]

To improve neutrals.

Random Neutral
= No Killing: Serial Killer, Mass Murderer, Arsonist
= No Evil: Witch, Cultist
= No Benign: Executioner, Jester, Amnesiac, Survivor

Neutral Killing
= No Serial Killer
= No Arsonist
= No Mass Murderer

Neutral Non-killing
= No Cultist

[Mugy]

Spy isn't a really reliable source for information.

[Nick]

Make Spy optional?

Town Core: Citizen, Mason, Mason Leader, Mayor
= No Mason, Mason Leader
= No Citizen

Town Killing: Vigilante, Bodyguard, Veteran, Jailor
= No Veteran

Town Investigative: Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout, Detective, Spy, Coroner
= No Sheriff, Investigator
= No Lookout, Detective
= No Spy, Coroner

Town Protective: Doctor, Escort, Bodyguard, Bus Driver

[Cryptonic]

Spy isn't a really reliable source for information.

You obviously don't know how to play spy then

[Guardian]

You obviously don't know how to play spy then

I can attest to this.
As spy, with the rand any as mafia, the mafia were basically giving me 3 confirmed innocent EVERY night.
Unframable ones. Oh, and I got the full list of mafia roles from their anon chat as a bonus

[ALL HAIL CTHULHU]

Town Protective: Doctor, Escort, Bodyguard, Bus Driver

Why does everyone insist on putting escort under protective when she can't protect? =/

Imagine a sheriff claims. How do you protect him? You find and neutralize the mafia. Escort is an attacking role.

[creedkingsx]

Why does everyone insist on putting escort under protective when she can't protect? =/

Imagine a sheriff claims. How do you protect him? You find and neutralize the mafia. Escort is an attacking role.

Escort can stop a Godfather from killing to the end of time.

[Cryptonic]

Escort can stop a Godfather from killing to the end of time.

Fix:
Change: Immune to roleblock to shoot dat ho*

[Nick]

Escort can't kill. Escort may be offensively defensive but Escort can't kill.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I want Bodyguard in Town Killing or Town Protective.

[creedkingsx]

Escort can't kill. Escort may be offensively defensive but Escort can't kill.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I want Bodyguard in Town Killing or Town Protective.

Bodyguard does both of those things though.. lol

[ALL HAIL CTHULHU]

Bodyguard does both of those things though.. lol

But from a game flow point of view:

Bodyguard will protect and keep an important town alive.

Bodyguard cannot attack players he thinks are evil. In this way, he is much more akin in balance to a doctor than vigilante.



Escort cannot protect and keep an important town alive.

Escort can attack players that the escort sees as suspicious. In this way, they are much more akin to a vigilante than a doctor.

[Nick]

True. But the main reason is the ability to KILL.

5 town 2 mafia 1 SK will not be balanced because by D2, only 3 town vs 3 scum.

However with a town killer, 3 town vs 3 scum is still fine.

Escort can only delay kills for lynching. Town killer can actively reduce their number.

[ALL HAIL CTHULHU]

True. But the main reason is the ability to KILL.

5 town 2 mafia 1 SK will not be balanced because by D2, only 3 town vs 3 scum.

However with a town killer, 3 town vs 3 scum is still fine.

Escort can only delay kills for lynching. Town killer can actively reduce their number.

This is ignoring the fact that the pure killer, the vig, can at most hope to reduce the numbers from 3v3 to 2v2. The escort, exactly mimicking the vig, would force the game into a 3v3. Both are ties. This scenario doesn't show at all that escort and vig are that different.

But the jailor can make the town win if he makes maf die! Yes, so can the bus driver who is quite clearly protective.

The fact that a role can at some point in time cause another role to die in some fashion is a very arbitrary method of classification if you do not include the mechanics surrounding it.

[Nick]

I have nothing to say. Circular argument...

In reality I would only want Jailor and Vigilante as Town Killing. To deal with Jesters.

[creedkingsx]

I have nothing to say. Circular argument...

In reality I would only want Jailor and Vigilante as Town Killing. To deal with Jesters.

He, also, wanted a parallel number of roles for each random per alignment. i.e. 4 towns per random, 3 mafs per random.

[Nick]

He, also, wanted a parallel number of roles for each random per alignment. i.e. 4 towns per random, 3 mafs per random.

Theory crafting is fun!