The Problem With Mafia's Default Settings

[FalseTruth]

Most of us are probably unfamiliar with default setting problems, but for pubs, this is a regular problem. In many cases, an inexperienced player will try to create a setup on the spot with 13 people screaming at him to add particular things. If one person does not get what they want, they will scream REPICK and everyone will type repick because of the bandwagon mentality. Many others will leave if the majority agrees with the setup, but they do not.

To resolve these issues for pubs and make their game experience better, I suggest that the default settings for setups are made more standardized.
Currently, the default options are what DR thinks would make a good game of mafia. Unfortunately, most people don't agree with DR.

I propose we come to a majority consensus in this topic on what the default options should be.

Here are the defaults I would like to see (Changes I want to see are BOLDED):

Game Settings:

Day length: 1.4 min (change from 1.8 min)
Night length: 0.7 min
Start game at Day/No Lynch
Death Descriptions (change from night sequence)
Trial Pauses Day (Checked)
Trial Defense (Checked)
Choose names (Checked)
Trial Length: 1 min
PM Allowed (Checked)
Last will allowed (Checked)
Discussion Time: 0.8 min
Day Type: Majority+Trial
Tutorial (Unchecked)


Town Roles:

Investigator:
Detects exact role (Unchecked)

Doctor:
Knows if target is attacked(Checked)

Escort:
Cannot be roleblocked (Unchecked)

Jailor:
Can make 2 Executions (Checked)

Vigilante:
Limited to 2 Kills (Checked)

Mason:
Replaces Mason Leader (Checked)

Mason Leader:
Limited to two recruits (Checked)

Spy:
Can hear the mafia (Checked)
Can hear masons (Checked)
Can see the mafia's target (Checked)
Can hear PM's (Checked)

Coroner:
Discovers all targets (Checked)
Discovers last will (Checked)

Bodyguard:
Ignores invulnerability (Checked)

Veteran:
Excluded from randoms (Checked)
Limited to two nights (Checked)

Mayor:
Vote counts for 3 (Checked)
Cannot be healed (Unchecked)

Mafia Roles:

Consigliere:
Replaces the Godfather (Unchecked)
Detects exact role (Unchecked)
Becomes Mafioso if alone (Checked)

Godfather:
Invulnerable at night (Checked)
Cannot be role-blocked (Unchecked)
Immune to detection (Checked)
Can kill without a mafioso (Checked)

Disguiser:
Cleans the targets role (Unchecked)

Consort:
Becomes mafioso if alone (Checked)
Cannot be role-blocked (Unchecked)

Framer:
Becomes mafioso if alone (Checked)
Immune to detection (Unchecked)

Janitor:
Becomes mafioso if alone (Checked)
Limited to 2 cleanings (Checked)

Blackmailer:
Becomes mafioso if alone (Checked)
Victim can talk during trial (Unchecked)

Neutral roles:

Serial Killer
Invulnerable at night (Checked)
Kills roleblockers (Unchecked)

Arsonist:
Attacks ignore invulnerability (Checked)
Attacks ignore healing (Checked)
Invulnerable at night (Checked)
Victim knows he is doused (Unchecked)

Witch:
Can cause self-targets (Checked)
Victim knows he is controlled (Checked)

Survivor:
Has 3 bulletproof vests (Checked)

Jester:
Random guilty voter dies (Checked)

Executioner:
Becomes Jester upon failure (Checked)
Target is always town (Checked)
Must survive to the end (Unchecked)

Vote below on on which changes you agree with and others you may disagree with. If you do not agree, please state why. Note that these changes are not what you like to play with your setup, but how most people would want to play. Personally, I do not use some of these as my own defaults, but I know that most other people like to play with them this way.

This is designed to be a discussion, so please post your thoughts below.

[LeaversGonnaLeave]

Blackmailer: "Victim can talk during trial (Unchecked)"


This is probably the only option I would probably leave as checked unless the option in game is actually "Victim can't talk during trial". I have not had the chance to look at the new option myself yet so I'm not entirely sure. Either way though, I believe the old regular Blackmailing should be the default way, with this more advanced option only available for people with more experience creating a balanced set up.

Everything else looks pretty average and would be wanted by most people I believe. Of course there will be slight issues depending on who plays. I, for example, wouldn't want a three vest Survivor. I feel that two is all you need to survive during the nights since you shouldn't be making yourself a prime target for being attacked. But after playing a couple of four vest Survivor games yesterday(easiest games of my life), I can see why one would want the extra vest. It does leave you with quite a bit more room to relax.

And for the sake of save slots ever being lost again, I support this idea.

[Dark.Revenant]

Unfortunately, even if I agreed with FalseTruth's defaults, it would not fix save slot issues. When a save slot gets outdated, either everything gets unchecked, or a bunch of random crap is checked. The defaults stop mattering.

[Kromunist]

Hi,

I know I'm new here but doesn't the default still matter to most players Dark.Revenant? Lots of random people would play Mafia and many of them likely choose the default setup for their first few games. Having the default set the way FalseTruth recommends would save more experienced players who pub a lot of hassle from bad setups and would spare new players the agony of being spammed "repick, repick!" and seeing half their game leave straight away. These are good things!

I totally love all of these changes. They work to make roles better defined and less ambiguous. One godfather, protected neutrals, day starts (no more new players joining the game and then being dead instantly), stronger Jailors, Bodyguards, Spys and Mayors. Less weak Masons.

Good stuff mates.

[Jailbar]

Unfortunately, even if I agreed with FalseTruth's defaults, it would not fix save slot issues. When a save slot gets outdated, either everything gets unchecked, or a bunch of random crap is checked. The defaults stop mattering.

This. "Default" really means "everything unchecked" in most cases, that's why it takes forever for a new person to set up a slot. And that's why the defaults should be ingrained, and instead of the option being "Can kill without a mafioso", it should be "Can't kill without a mafioso", if you get what I mean. Default should = unchecked. This would probably take a lot of work though.

Also, I don't think anyone will ever agree on one default setting. At best it would be the agreement of a few people who looked at a specific thread. I'm comfortable going with what DR chooses for now.

[Yayap]

Unfortunately, even if I agreed with FalseTruth's defaults, it would not fix save slot issues. When a save slot gets outdated, either everything gets unchecked, or a bunch of random crap is checked. The defaults stop mattering.

Yes, maybe so. But when creating a save slot, it would be nice to just have to add the roles in instead of calibrating each role. And I agree with the setup FalseTruth gave.

[FalseTruth]

Unfortunately, even if I agreed with FalseTruth's defaults, it would not fix save slot issues. When a save slot gets outdated, either everything gets unchecked, or a bunch of random crap is checked. The defaults stop mattering.

Thats fine, but for people trying to make a new setup, defaults still matter. This would still help them out greatly.

[Dark.Revenant]

The main problem is I completely disagree with many of those changes.

Day Length: Just no.
Death Descriptions: If this is the default, literally nobody will ever be using the night sequences that I programmed. This is the same as removing it from the game entirely, wasting countless hours of code.
PM Allowed: Fine, whatever. This was only turned off in Custom for whatever reason, but I'll change that.

Jailor - 2 Executions: God no. He's rigged enough already.
Mason - Replace Mason Leader: I don't think you appreciate just how rigged this is in a random setup.
Spy Options: Sure.
Bodyguard - Ignore Invulnerability: Meh, whatever.
Mayor - Can Be Healed: This automatically removes much of the Mayor's strategy.

Consigliere - Don't Replace Godfather: Okay.
Godfather - Immunity: Fair enough.
Framer - Detectable: Why...? But fine, whatever.

Serial Killer Options: Yeah, I was going to be doing this in the next update.
Arsonist - Invulnerable: Same as above.
Arsonist - Ignore Healing: Now that's just rigged.
Survivor - 3 Vests: That makes it too easy to play as the Survivor, but long games will be okay. I'll try 3 vests out for now, though.
Executioner - Can Die: No. NO.

[FalseTruth]

Day Length: Okay, I will concede this... But pubs still won't like it.

Death Descriptions: The game is not about wanting people to play stuff that you spent time on... Its about practical use. If no one likes it, I suggest you not force it upon them. This should be a MUST CHANGE.

Jailor: Please explain how he is rigged? I do not know of anyone who gives jailor only 1 execution. Most setups seemed balanced with a 2 execute jailor.

Mason: I concede this as well. It is not a huge problem that most people have to face.

Mayor: I seriously suggest you reconsider this one. The mayor's strategy revolves around all of town knowing that he is 100% town. If the amount of defined docs are limited in the setup, then a healable mayor is perfectly balanced. Most mayors do not utilize the full potential of mayor through the use of pms. If the mayor is healable, he can retain this valuable information to make judgements on the following days. An healable mayor upholds much more strategy than a suicidal unhealable mayor. Suicidal roles are not fun to play, and add little to the game.

Arsonist: I concede this

Survivor: A trial wouldn't hurt

Executioner: This is not my utmost concern, but I feel as though with this host option on, it becomes extremely difficult for an executioner to win at all.

TL;DR
Reconsider Mayor, Jailor and Death Descriptions.

[AscendedOne]

Jailor: Please explain how he is rigged? I do not know of anyone who gives jailor only 1 execution. Most setups seemed balanced with a 2 execute jailor.

Well uhh.... I only give him one execution....... Last time I checked anyways....

I personally think that setups with mayor (That have this option) should come standard with a doc and a bodyguard or two, so that he can still be protected but its still a major flaw on his part.

[FalseTruth]

The question is, "Is DR going to make this a Dictatorship or a Democracy?"

I sincerely hope you choose democracy, DR.

[AscendedOne]

False this is kinda a lesser matter really. Those last few changes to default setup dont need to be in. Although, death descriptions would prolly be a good idea. DR pretty pissed about having his programing time wasted.

[Dark.Revenant]

It's neither a democracy nor a dictatorship because I do not govern any of you. I govern my game and I extend the courtesy of taking many suggestions, but the final say is mine because it's not an opensource title. So yes, I have an autocracy over the one citizen of my domain, Mafia.

If you are referring to the democratic process of voting in general, then you're not following that principle that well either. You insist your opinions are the better ones, which is reasonable to expect, but you don't take into account that there are lots of other players with their own ideas of how the default values should be, and their opinions might differ from you. Granted, you acknowledged this with the promise of "discussion" in this thread, but so far only a couple people have posted, which is not anywhere close to a large enough sample to make a decisive decision. Even then, I hold the power of veto.

Anyway, for my own reasons, I won't be changing the Jailor or Mayor defaults any time soon, but it might happen eventually. Removing night sequences, though, you'll have to pry from my cold, dead hands.

[McJesus]

you guys know you can change the settings right? No one cares about default because everybody just uses their own.

[Elixir]

Anyway, for my own reasons, I won't be changing the Jailor or Mayor defaults any time soon, but it might happen eventually. Removing night sequences, though, you'll have to pry from my cold, dead hands.

Am I the only person who likes night sequence?

Also its the only way to know for sure if a Disguiser has moved or if a janitor has cleaned... Disguiser sounds like a ghost snipe.

[FalseTruth]

Well, I was thinking about making a poll but I thought it would be too complicated after some thought. DR, it's totally fine that you set the defaults whichever way you want-- it IS your creation, after all. I just wanted to find a way to maybe boost popularity for the map by making this topic.

Only trying to help, don't take it the wrong way :/

[Bazar]

I thought i'd throw my 2 cents in.

Looking at also throwing some UI improvements in to the suggestion forum later.

I don't like the idea of PM's being allowed by default. But i have never played with it.

Day length is good, it helps people talk without being pressured by time.

Death Descriptions - Without a doubt the best way to play. Night sequence just takes far too long to animate, its about 5 minutes of time wasted each nice as a result.

If you aren't going to remove it as the default, you may want to consider changing the gameplay to better support it. Speed it up consideribly. Perhaps making players like the SK kill instantly and as a result animate instantly during the sequence.

Eitherway, as it is now, it just doesn't work. Its a novel thing, but like all novelities, gets tedious quickly.

And as for it allowing disgusiers to be detected, thats a flaw in the system.

Trial Pauses Day (UNCHECKED)
Don't have that checked, as i think the default is.

There are good reasons for that.
The first is it makes the game flow smoother.
When the mafia are trying to spout BS in their defense, even the act of buying time works wonders.
Finally the best reaason (although the other two are very important for a smooth game), is taht it actually gives the blackmailer considerible power.

As is it now, if trial pauses the day, the blackmailer is very gimp. Anyone he targets simply spams votes till he gets elected, then he gets to say his word, and the lynch continues normally.

With time continuing, the guy just won't talk unless its essential, which will still squander a day, which might mean everything to the mafia.

An alterntive would be that blackmailing a target remvoes his ability to vote during the pre-lynch stage.

Still, i feel time continuing is the best option. Having 2 lynches when there are only 5 seconds remaining on the clock feels utterly unfair for mafia.

Jailor with 2 executions is a good setting i feel. I feel that with just 1 execution the jailor doesn't get too much of a chance to shine.
Still compared to the escort, the jailor is always superior.

Godfather being rollblocked i feel is the worst thign that can happen to the mafia.
When a fluke escort lucks on to him in the first night. The only hope maifa get is to either bullshit their way to an escort lynch, hope a netural kills the escort, or pray the escort is increadibly stupid.


I actually give the surviver 4 vests. Hell hes usally killed by lynching because people think hes the godfather, around turn 6-7. Might as well give him every advantage, hes mostly a harmless player anyway.


Executioner
Frankly i wish i could force an exec into something other then a suicide roll. Once they kill their target, the win comes only if they survive till the end OR town wins.

As it is, they have little reason not ot just afk, and no reason to help town or mafia. They just become a deadweight.

I feel trying to survive till the end is next to impossible though. They'll usually incur the wrath of the town, unless they were made to try and help town.


Also i'm with DK, its his game, and frankly i'd trust his opions over the vast bulk of suggestions given. Except for night sequence, god thats just too tedious for me now.

[Dark.Revenant]

The night sequence is very fast. Each one is over in a matter of seconds.

The 5 minutes comes from the UNGODLY amount of network lag that happens for no reason. It literally multiplies the time required by 3-10x the original amount.

[AscendedOne]

Well if you fix the problem I would personally be fine with having it on.

[FalseTruth]

He can't fix lag, it happens in every SC2 custom game in varying degrees. All he can try to do is reduce it somehow, which would probably take a lot of work and wouldn't be worth the effort.

[Jailbar]

Well, I was thinking about making a poll but I thought it would be too complicated after some thought. DR, it's totally fine that you set the defaults whichever way you want-- it IS your creation, after all. I just wanted to find a way to maybe boost popularity for the map by making this topic.

Only trying to help, don't take it the wrong way :/

From an outsider's perspective, some of your posts make it look like you're threatening DR and trying to make this game your own. It may not be that way but maybe you should just be mindful of your post's tone of voice.

[Kromunist]

I like the idea of the Serial Killer being immune at night. It creates a more scary enemy for both the town and the mafia and really promotes the role of the Sheriff (and the Doctors protecting him) in finding the killer.

Spy being able to listen in on everyone is an obvious choice for change. I also feel like the Arsonist should have a SPY CHECK! ability (with accompanying vocals).

I don't really know about Mayor being heal-able but agree that being a suicidal roll is never fun. Same goes for executioner.

Jailor shouldn't get two executions. He is already Consort+ I wouldn't like him being Vigi+ too!

Three vests for the survivor would be great. Most games last what, 7-8 Turns? his still only protected for half the game. Not overpowered.

[Nick]

Well, I was thinking about making a poll but I thought it would be too complicated after some thought. DR, it's totally fine that you set the defaults whichever way you want-- it IS your creation, after all. I just wanted to find a way to maybe boost popularity for the map by making this topic.

Only trying to help, don't take it the wrong way :/

From an outsider's perspective, some of your posts make it look like you're threatening DR and trying to make this game your own. It may not be that way but maybe you should just be mindful of your post's tone of voice.

"Improving" sounds better than "Problem"...

By the way, I'm under the assumption that the default settings can be changed and preferred customized settings saved... what are the exact problems you are referring to?

And buffs/nerfs deserve their own post and do not belong here...

[Inca_Killa]

my 2 cents:

Night Sequences are one of the only things that make me rage quit right off the bat. It doesn't much and takes an ungodly amount of time. Sorry but thats how I feel.