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Type: Posts; User: Echonian

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    ►►Re: FM X rules & role cards (not finalized)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    I'm going to leave the cits as is since they can all get items from blacksmiths, heals from doctors or any other effect from other PRs. Sometimes a confirmed citizen is the most feared man on the playing field since scum know that it's a wasted shot not on a PR.
    Being able to get items, heals, and other effects is not a reason to leave them as is (or a strength as that statement seems to imply). Primarily because those things apply to almost any role, and citizens are less likely to have beneficial effects used on them due to them being less important (predictably).

    As far as being the "most feared man" due to them getting shot instead of a power role...I'm not seeing how losing a town on the basis of their general uselessness is something to fear. A dead citizen in the grand scheme of things is a somewhat minor gain to town versus a power role dying (and later on could be almost equally as bad) and a very bad thing to happen versus the kill not being effective in the first place.

    As far as learning to play the game as citizen before trying to figure out power roles, that only makes sense if the roles were given out on the basis of experience and/or ability. But that hasn't been the case as far as I've seen.

    Citizens being called the "best role" by anybody is objectively false. Citizens being helpful for balance is correct, but saying that their ability to die for power roles is a good thing for the fun of players involved or a major advantage is very odd.

    Edit: Also, I have effectively played one, and I've done more than my fair share of research on the subject.
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    ►►Re: FM X rules & role cards (not finalized)◄◄

    Current citizen bias

    The problem with implementing citizens in the exact same way as before (which was already incredibly boring) is that the increased complexity that everybody else gets other than citizens makes any argument of overpowering by giving them any abilities moot (as that's being done by giving everyone else more abilities, though by leveling, not that I was suggesting the citizens get free stuff).

    There seems to be an overwhelming majority of people who talk about FM who insist that having a large number of players play as a completely bland role (by design) is the only possible way to make it balanced. It is a way to balance the game, but it is far from being the only way, and the more players that are in any particular FM and the more complex your power roles GET, the worse of a point having bland citizens is. Because the only point of having people be citizens is to reduce clusterfucking (excuse my language) from power role interactions, which increases the more you increase the complexity of roles and the more players that are in the game in total. At least, that's the only explanation I've ever gotten or seen that's plausible.

    Rant about citizen balance

    What it boils down to though, in my opinion, is the fact that nobody seems to be interested in creating a FM with carefully balanced roles and interactions in advance. Instead, everybody who hosts them (from what I've read of archives) simply throws in a bunch of stuff (but doesn't tweak it nearly enough), and adds citizens to make the game easier to manage rather than balance out the roles properly. To be clear, being able to recruit citizens IS a strong point of certain power roles, but I see no reason why those roles can't be expanded to also be able to recruit town "power" roles instead (perhaps with modifications, and if citizens weren't so bland and overall shit the entire phrase "power role" wouldn't be as much of a problem). Well, other than not wanting to do the work for that. There would obviously need to be exceptions to this as well, or perhaps even the loss of special abilities, but it would still be far more interesting than being citizen in the first place.

    Of course, playing as a citizen is not unfun. If that were true, far less people would be interested in FM. It is, objectively, less involving than playing literally any other role though. Giving every player something to do would make FM a lot more fun for everyone overall, if balanced.

    Last thoughts

    Ranting aside, balance is already something that could use a lot of tweaking. I don't see a reason why coming up with new town roles or ways to replace the mob of citizens would be any more of a balancing issue than anything already proposed. Granted, with 50 people its going to be far more difficult, but that's due to the sheer number of people in a game that requires heavy amounts of interaction between people to work properly. The more people that are added to a FM, the more work it takes from the average player to decipher what is going on (hell, reading the day threads alone and dealing with all of the arguments would be impossible above...about 50 players, or at the very least difficult enough that its just not worth it).

    Electro Maniac

    I would have to agree on this role being far too similar to Arsonist, and therefore should either not be put in or should replace the arsonist. Personally, I prefer the arsonist. Though I will say that the Electro Maniac seems overpowered, and that's saying a lot when the Arsonist is already a role that needs to be limited to prevent stupidity.
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    ►►Re: FM X rules & role cards (not finalized)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Auckmid View Post
    However, citizens are only as useless as they want to be. Citizens have been some of the best at guessing the alignments of people, simply by post analysis.
    I'm against that being even remotely thought of as a strength of town (or implied) when that ability has literally nothing to do with the role. In fact, a role that gets you concrete information would be more accurate in guessing alignments, and combining it with post analysis isn't rocket science for many.

    Having a level system for the Cits I would recommend as follows:

    3 successful lynches in a row (non-town) = extra vote. Though that vote would need to be hidden somehow, obviously.

    6 successful lynches in a row = second, and final extra vote (or perhaps something else).

    Getting extra votes would be the simplest solution, and is far from overpowered when you consider the sheer number of people that will be able to vote and that it would take a minimum of 3 or 6 days to get increases in votes.

    The point made about "every cit leveling up" just because a lot vote for the same one doesn't make much sense in my opinion. If it takes more than one lynch in a row, cits will make mistakes. Going on the bandwagon doesn't at all guarantee that they will vote correctly, either. There is room for a margin of error, is my point, that increases with every lynch considering it instantly resets to 1 vote the moment you pick the wrong person to have killed.

    Requiring 6 lynches in a row for a single extra vote is a meaningless reward. The number of citizens that would be able to do that in a normal FM game are a tiny, tiny minority of them, assuming they even survive for 6 days worth of lynches that are ALL against anti-town (more if town was lynched, making it literally impossible if they ever got reset in level, or if there were no lynches, or lynches that matter).
  4. Replies
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    ►►Re: FM X rules & role cards (not finalized)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Lurking and being AFK are 2 different things. Lurking means you are reading the topic and intentionally not posting. Being AFK, you are not online and can't post even if you wanted to. Thats why I kept the 2 separate.
    Yeah, they are different in theory. People who do not even come online often have just as much ability to post as those that lurk, however. It is merely the fact that they choose not to even log on that separates them (at least to anybody's knowledge that they haven't talked to in advance).

    Thanks for listening. I'm new to FM, so giving perfect feedback is difficult on my part. The other responses you made in that post make sense to me.

    One important thing about preventing lurking/AFK is screening who gets to join. Even if that only involves checking activity from previous FMs, or if not sure, putting in the sign-up thread a minimum standard for activity to help deter people from signing up that may not be able to contribute much. At the very least this could make it easier to prevent them from joining future FMs, though there will always be trolls. If things come up for a person that is serious, it shouldn't be held against them, but should be explained (it should also be made clear that joining should be done by people that know that they will have time to participate, at least at the time of the FM starting).

    Again, I'm not an expert on FM due to inexperience. I'm just giving my input.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Someone has asked if a role can loose levels. Currently, the answer is no, however if you guys believe that it would add an interesting twist to the game,

    I'm considering adding 1 drug effect and a new wizard power at lvl 2 that would reduce a role down to lvl 1. What do you guys think?
    I would like to say that I haven't read the role cards yet, though I will momentarily. I do think that levels in general need to be very carefully controlled, and I prefer having a more unique and interesting role from the start rather than allowing for upgrades that will be incredibly difficult to balance (they could either be too strong, or be nearly pointless to have in the FM at all).

    Edit 2: I've read the role lists now. I like that the roles seem more interesting (though some slightly streamlining could help, no idea on specific ideas yet though). My only real problem with the increased complexity and fun is that citizens remain entirely useless. This is one of my least favorite parts of FM, and making every single other role even more fun to play makes citizens seem more and more useless and boring, a role that feels like a punishment.

    How to improve citizens without making them overpowered is difficult, though. If they could level up through successful lynches (only needing 1 for the first upgrade), and have levels removed or some-such from helping lynch somebody who is not an enemy of the town, it might work well. This would prevent citizens from being overpowered from the start, but allow them to maybe gain some abilities through successful use of their only real power. Ideas for said powers I have no idea about right now, but I wanted to put this idea out there in any case.
  5. Replies
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    ►►Re: FM X rules & role cards (not finalized)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    1- No outside of game discussion.
    No PMs, no REP, no visitor msgs, no skype, etc. Not even with people not playing. Violators will be replaced ASAP!
    Saying NO out of game discussion seems a bit impossible to enforce, and talking about events without giving away anything through them is a very fun way to pass the time (such as what happened during the day, or repeating what posts said that everyone has access to). Clarification would help, at least for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    2- Anti-Lurk rule:
    a-Citizens MUST participate in day chat. Saying "hello" does not count. Any citizen with low posts during the day will have his posts reviewed for content. Violators will be replaced at the end of EACH DAY.
    b- Non-Citizens that lurk will be mentioned in the RP as a "clue".. this would expose your non citizen status.
    This rule is the most odd to me. Being AFK is an issue in FM, that much I can admit to. But enforcing this to any degree in a game that you are planning to have 50 players in (with no restrictions on timing of posts or anything that prevent it from becoming a clusterfuck of reading material) is impossible. Especially if you do it day-by-day.

    If the number of people in the game was lowered to 15-25 maximum, this would be a much more reasonable thing to say. As it stands, FM is difficult for many people to keep up with already, and they often have less than 10-15 people actively participating.

    My recommendation is to better screen people joining the game in the first place to make sure they'll at least be more active overall. Having day-by-day purging of players based on activity seems a bit overkill to me, especially if there was no reason for them to say anything. If they had 24-48 hours and are being accused of something, and don't respond, then I could understand this however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    3- AFK rule:
    I of all people know that not everyone can be at a PC for every day that he is alive, how many times did I have a hydroplane race to attend to while FM was going on? If you are leaving for any amount of time, please notify me and the anti-lurk rule may be waved. Be warned, if I find any activity from your regular account or FM account, the Anti-Lurk rule will go back into effect. Night actions may be sent in advance.
    Could be easily combined with anti-lurk rule. The less text people have to read for rules, the better, especially when it can be done without making them less clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    4- Color for Votes to lynch:
    Cyan has been chosen as the dedicated color for votes. Only your vote and the vote tally may use the Cyan color.
    All votes must be made in Cyan. No other formatting will necessary but will not be discarded
    Ex:
    Vote Yayap
    Vote Yayap
    -Vote Yayap

    Will all be accepted.

    For a no lynch: Vote Skip Day, if this has the majority of the votes, then no one will be executed.
    Not too familiar with why this is needed as a rule (though it would help organize things, running a FM should have you reading every post anyways).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    5- Lying about game/role mechanics:
    100% permitted, however if someone asks about it in the FAQ, I will give the correct usage.
    So the rule is: if no one officially questions it, you can get away with it.
    Defining what counts as "official" questioning of it would be helpful. I personally think you should be allowed to lie as much as you want in FM, considering deception is the main function of the game in the first place. Telling the truth is when it begins to sometimes turn into gamethrowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    6- Modkills:
    Depending on modkills, some of you may receive more than one FM account. You will receive all advantages to both accounts and votes will count. For this reason, when someone is dead and COM name is revealed, rule #1 still applies! It may be possible that people return from the grave as well.
    It shall be noted that there will be 2-3 dead chats (one for town, one for scum, one for cult) Obviously a dead scum or cult will not take on a town role. It is however possible that a dead town takes a scum role.
    Modkills need to not be announced, especially if the conditions for them might impact the game. If a modkill is done because of breaking rules, then people might start deducing that they were telling the truth (if giving away roles, for example). I've seen this happen already to some extent, and the only way to avoid it is to hide modkills and try to make sure that if accounts are given to others or some-such that they don't say they were modkilled (though saying it through speech patterns is impossible to avoid).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    7- Account names (aka COM names):
    You are allowed to lie about this as much as you want, anywhere you want. INCLUDING night chats. Of course, rule #1 will still apply. So there shouldn't be any trouble. ... Right?
    Can be combined with rule #5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    8- Communication with the FM Game Master:
    I enjoy conversations with others, getting to know what is going through their heads when they make certain decisions. If you make the wrong choice for all the right reasons, it will not penalize you for LVP for example. Our conversations will remain private.
    However, ALL QUESTIONS asked will be publicly answered for everyone to see. The person asking the question will remain anonymous if the question was not asked publicly in the FAQ thread.

    9- Images, Videos, Links, Annoying Formatting:
    All permitted, but please don't abuse this privilege. (If I don't see your vote because of your formatting, your vote is void)

    10- PMs from the GM
    You may not post a screen shot of the PM. You may however say it's content word for word. Not all PMs will be the same, even if it's the same result.

    11- Codes and Encrypted Messages
    No code or encryption may be created with the use of a program or website. Pencil and paper is just fine. If you manage to make a mathematical cipher that encrypts a message I'm ok with it since it will be very hard to hide the fact that you are sending a secret message if you type a bunch of gibberish (and not to mention the time you will waste coding and decoding your messages [trust me, I know! I made one in FM2]). You may even use the invisible ink, due to the high risk of exposure from someone quoting you. Note that Rule #1 ALWAYS applies.
    Last ones are related to messages, so I'm just going to say they could be consolidated and not give much input past that.

    Sorry for the long reply, but the quotes do help put my responses in context. My general idea is that it needs to be designed to be fun, and overcomplicated rules (though rules are very helpful) can kill that for a lot of people. Everything you've stated I mostly agree with. I just recommend you tidy it up a bit.
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