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[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;812154]The issue that comes up is that a few players can actually pull "scum gambits" that will make this rule fail. I even think it is, consciously or not, to counter that very idea that scum gambits are a thing. So, how to use it at its maximum power?

But how do you see what's scumpainting and simple town misplay? Plus, scumpainting =/= misplay as town, not always. You can get a lot of info through it.

Indeed. I think I'm going to apply this more, and encourage other players to do so. This allows to get rid of bullshit cases pretty well. However, RVS is an exception... it's not ALWAYS bad to give a read without evidence (by evidence, I here mean a reasonably heavy point based on day chat, not a "lead" from night actions).

I don't think I understand how that makes gambits. As for the disclaimer, I meant that the Newtonian approach (and the scientific method's basis) is not a bad thing. It's useful, even needed for science. But for Mafia and other things that cannot really be experimented, yet are important subjects... it sucks. That includes Mafia. Basically, Alder's razor tells us that waiting for leads is crappy.

~~

This is more subtle than it looks like, honestly. Stating things as facts without looking at the exceptions is dangerous, care...[/QUOTE]A good player will almost always go the most successful approach as scum while convincing the town of the other, less likely possibilities to be what's happening. Most of the time actual "scum gambits" as you call them are misplays that by themselves already would put the scum in an inconvenient spot. That is convenient for the town, that's why people want to believe that. 99% of the time it just isn't happening however.

You don't see a difference between poor play and scimpainting. That's exactly the point of the razor and the reason why it's bad to play poorly as town. If you're doing that intentionally it's a gambit, then it's fine but you gotta reach a conclusion that isn't you actually believing the misplay to be right in the end.

.

Mafia can be experimented and it is getting experimented in almost every game. Gambits are experiments. Experiments don't suck.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

The issue that comes up is that a few players can actually pull "scum gambits" that will make this rule fail. I even think it is, consciously or not, to counter that very idea that scum gambits are a thing. So, how to use it at its maximum power?

But how do you see what's scumpainting and simple town misplay? Plus, scumpainting =/= misplay as town, not always. You can get a lot of info through it.

Indeed. I think I'm going to apply this more, and encourage other players to do so. This allows to get rid of bullshit cases pretty well. However, RVS is an exception... it's not ALWAYS bad to give a read without evidence (by evidence, I here mean a reasonably heavy point based on day chat, not a "lead" from night actions).

I don't think I understand how that makes gambits. As for the disclaimer, I meant that the Newtonian approach (and the scientific method's basis) is not a bad thing. It's useful, even needed for science. But for Mafia and other things that cannot really be experimented, yet are important subjects... it sucks. That includes Mafia. Basically, Alder's razor tells us that waiting for leads is crappy.

~~

This is more subtle than it looks like, honestly. Stating things as facts without looking at the exceptions is dangerous, care...

A good player will almost always go the most successful approach as scum while convincing the town of the other, less likely possibilities to be what's happening. Most of the time actual "scum gambits" as you call them are misplays that by themselves already would put the scum in an inconvenient spot. That is convenient for the town, that's why people want to believe that. 99% of the time it just isn't happening however.

You don't see a difference between poor play and scimpainting. That's exactly the point of the razor and the reason why it's bad to play poorly as town. If you're doing that intentionally it's a gambit, then it's fine but you gotta reach a conclusion that isn't you actually believing the misplay to be right in the end.

.

Mafia can be experimented and it is getting experimented in almost every game. Gambits are experiments. Experiments don't suck.

All the razors are true and important imo.
First one works just like you said. You all end up scumreading good players way more just because you think they could be good enough to pull something extremely unlikely. Usually they don't and those reads end up being wrong however. We see that every game really.
2nd is about actual scumtells and scumpainting/shading. Wiisp for example complained everyone on this site is shading way too much. That razor there is one reason.
Hitchen, like you said. People scumpaint with no evidence, you gotta make use of that action of them as a scumtell in itself.
Last one with the experiments is essentially what usually ends up being labeled as gambits in mafia. Gambits are good and you gotta use them. I don't even know what you mean by that disclaimer lmao. Every experiment gets you somewhere, doesn't matter if the result is true or false.

All the razors are true and important imo.
First one works just like you said. You all end up scumreading good players way more just because you think they could be good enough to pull something extremely unlikely. Usually they don't and those reads end up being wrong however. We see that every game really.
2nd is about actual scumtells and scumpainting/shading. Wiisp for example complained everyone on this site is shading way too much. That razor there is one reason.
Hitchen, like you said. People scumpaint with no evidence, you gotta make use of that action of them as a scumtell in itself.
Last one with the experiments is essentially what usually ends up being labeled as gambits in mafia. Gambits are good and you gotta use them. I don't even know what you mean by that disclaimer lmao. Every experiment gets you somewhere, doesn't matter if the result is true or false.