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[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;915368]Chats, last wills and death notes can absolutely be major balance elements. Maybe not in a PR madness setup, but in a communication-based setup, absolutely. It goes even further than that, considering last wills can make or break a game that is relatively cop-centered.

As for the rest, my above point applies a bit less, but still apply: some phase lenghts are completely unplayable to some people (which would result in signups not filling), or are completely unfitting for some setups. It'd make pre-approved setups more touchy to use, too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, those decisions can be changed in the signups. What you seem not to have considered is that your suggestion will make it so that we ALWAYS have to make those decisions in the signups... which leads to even more questions about balance, about what people can and can't do, etc.
Am I missing your point? Because I don't really see the improvement, sorry :P[/QUOTE]
There's no questions about balance when it's pre-approved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hence the different options for different setups..

Whether different phase lengths are wanted or not has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion whether they should be in the setup page present. What's the argument there?

Those things in your first paragraph - I'm not seeing the point/argument there either. I never suggested to have every option available in every setup, I suggested to approve what options are available for each setup (and which aren't) beforehand.

You made it sound like making the decisions in the signups is a bad thing. Why? There's no difficulty from the Host's perspective to choose one of the pre-approved options. There's no inconvenience to the players.

In theory, why would you want 5 different setup pages for 1 setup, just to change some optional things?
Why would you want rules in signup + rules in setup, just so players have to walk back and forth to see what was originally and what was changed? This goes for everything. It's unnecessary mess, it's ugly. One setup has "host reserves x color" another has "host reserves y color", when neither has any point in being there and that's the sort of thing that would be dependant on host rather setup.
Why wouldn't you have [COLOR="#FFFFFF"]more variety freely available[/COLOR] instead of having force it if wanted after, technically, the setups were already approved?

Freely available variety for the cost of not having optional thing pre-determined. Things that should have no place in setup pages to begin with.

Anyways. Doesn't matter. But it's ugly and restricting and wrong. :sad:

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Chats, last wills and death notes can absolutely be major balance elements. Maybe not in a PR madness setup, but in a communication-based setup, absolutely. It goes even further than that, considering last wills can make or break a game that is relatively cop-centered.

As for the rest, my above point applies a bit less, but still apply: some phase lenghts are completely unplayable to some people (which would result in signups not filling), or are completely unfitting for some setups. It'd make pre-approved setups more touchy to use, too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, those decisions can be changed in the signups. What you seem not to have considered is that your suggestion will make it so that we ALWAYS have to make those decisions in the signups... which leads to even more questions about balance, about what people can and can't do, etc.
Am I missing your point? Because I don't really see the improvement, sorry :P

There's no questions about balance when it's pre-approved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hence the different options for different setups..

Whether different phase lengths are wanted or not has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion whether they should be in the setup page present. What's the argument there?

Those things in your first paragraph - I'm not seeing the point/argument there either. I never suggested to have every option available in every setup, I suggested to approve what options are available for each setup (and which aren't) beforehand.

You made it sound like making the decisions in the signups is a bad thing. Why? There's no difficulty from the Host's perspective to choose one of the pre-approved options. There's no inconvenience to the players.

In theory, why would you want 5 different setup pages for 1 setup, just to change some optional things?
Why would you want rules in signup + rules in setup, just so players have to walk back and forth to see what was originally and what was changed? This goes for everything. It's unnecessary mess, it's ugly. One setup has "host reserves x color" another has "host reserves y color", when neither has any point in being there and that's the sort of thing that would be dependant on host rather setup.
Why wouldn't you have more variety freely available instead of having force it if wanted after, technically, the setups were already approved?

Freely available variety for the cost of not having optional thing pre-determined. Things that should have no place in setup pages to begin with.

Anyways. Doesn't matter. But it's ugly and restricting and wrong.

Those are strange things to have in setups I think, I question their reason for being there.

Time control - you can have any setup have any day/night lengths. No reason to have in setup pages.

Rules - with the exception of some setups with special mechanics, rules have nothing to do with the setups.

Lynch Types - while some setups might have it necessary to have plurality, I doubt that all setups can have only 1 possible option. Majority is optional almost always, no reason why a setup page shouldn't say so.

Mafia Chats, Last Wills, Death Notes - we don't balance our setups so precise to not have them be optional.

I'd prefer setups were something like this:[QUOTE=<example>][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Lynch Type[/COLOR] = [Plurality: obligatory | Majority: optional]
[COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Mafia Chats[/COLOR] = [Night Chat: obligatory | Day Chat: Optional | Pregame Chat: Optional]
[COLOR="#FFFFFF"]LW/DN[/COLOR] = [Optional]
[COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Role Flips[/COLOR] = [Obligatory]
[/QUOTE]

There's the argument that we can change any optional things in the signups. But the argument has it's issues:
-If someone wanted to change something when considering hosting a setup: they would first have to ask an FM mod if it's even an option to begin with. Now imagine you could skip the step when considering multiple setups to decide which you want to host.
-In the case above: they don't do their role for which they were put in the setup pages.
-Things that are optional from game to game basis, all players would from the beginning far more often know which is the option chosen for the game they're in. They're easier to miss in setup than in signup page, and when they read in setup page that something is optional they'd double check it on the signup page yet again.

Players from other sites would feel less Alien here. Kappa

Those are strange things to have in setups I think, I question their reason for being there.

Time control - you can have any setup have any day/night lengths. No reason to have in setup pages.

Rules - with the exception of some setups with special mechanics, rules have nothing to do with the setups.

Lynch Types - while some setups might have it necessary to have plurality, I doubt that all setups can have only 1 possible option. Majority is optional almost always, no reason why a setup page shouldn't say so.

Mafia Chats, Last Wills, Death Notes - we don't balance our setups so precise to not have them be optional.

I'd prefer setups were something like this:

Originally Posted by

Lynch Type = [Plurality: obligatory | Majority: optional]
Mafia Chats = [Night Chat: obligatory | Day Chat: Optional | Pregame Chat: Optional]
LW/DN = [Optional]
Role Flips = [Obligatory]

There's the argument that we can change any optional things in the signups. But the argument has it's issues:
-If someone wanted to change something when considering hosting a setup: they would first have to ask an FM mod if it's even an option to begin with. Now imagine you could skip the step when considering multiple setups to decide which you want to host.
-In the case above: they don't do their role for which they were put in the setup pages.
-Things that are optional from game to game basis, all players would from the beginning far more often know which is the option chosen for the game they're in. They're easier to miss in setup than in signup page, and when they read in setup page that something is optional they'd double check it on the signup page yet again.

Players from other sites would feel less Alien here.