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[QUOTE=Auwt;906780]Good point.



Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid.
The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread.
I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction.
Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this.

MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo.
It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone.

I mean, imagine someone running a red light.
Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same.
And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement.[/QUOTE]You are only looking at one specific outcome there. There are many other situations where the other party is the one putting you at risk for no visible reason. In such situations them being in a police car prevents you from pressing the horn and telling them your unbiased genuine opinion. It creates a barrier between the 2 parties that wouldn't be there if both had the same standing.

Originally Posted by Auwt

Good point.



Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid.
The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread.
I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction.
Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this.

MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo.
It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone.

I mean, imagine someone running a red light.
Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same.
And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement.

You are only looking at one specific outcome there. There are many other situations where the other party is the one putting you at risk for no visible reason. In such situations them being in a police car prevents you from pressing the horn and telling them your unbiased genuine opinion. It creates a barrier between the 2 parties that wouldn't be there if both had the same standing.

On a serious note tho, Auwt's example is on point. An admin having a red or a white name is exactly the difference between the police driving in a police or a regular car. And the communication issue exists there too. You don't want to start shouting at someone for driving like a retard when they're in a police car. It's exactly this.

On a serious note tho, Auwt's example is on point. An admin having a red or a white name is exactly the difference between the police driving in a police or a regular car. And the communication issue exists there too. You don't want to start shouting at someone for driving like a retard when they're in a police car. It's exactly this.

[QUOTE=Auwt;906773]It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving.
As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules.
So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin).
You will realize, it won't change anything.[/QUOTE]
That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them.

Originally Posted by Auwt

It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving.
As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules.
So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin).
You will realize, it won't change anything.

That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them.

[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;906761]Putting something up that restricts staff members' freedom [I]as players[/I] (the freedom of having a meta and the stress of having to conceal an identity) when they don't want to and that doesn't actually prevent anything is no "solution"; plus, it's not like abuse actually happened anywhere, unless telling someone, independently from a player identity, that telling someone to be a man and blow their brains out is against the rules is abuse, in which case abuse is literally everywhere.

And if I thought the administration of a community were so deeply corrupt that righteous and legitimate reports would do nothing or would get me banned, well, I'd probably leave that community, because there would no trust in any form of fairness. This isn't the case here.

Your snake illustration has two major flaws:
- The snake and its owner are the same person in the real world. "Biting" would imply that staff has extraordinarily evil intent, it's not like it's something uncontrolled like a snake. If you really believe staff has evil intent, report. Plus...
- ...are you going to tell me that an admin with evil intent, who wants to abuse his powers, won't change accounts, even though it takes 15 seconds to do? The very existence of moderation implies the latent risk of abuse, and it won't change just because you disguise moderators.


And by the way, this kind of suggestion is, as far as I know, completely unprecedented in the worldwide FM community; it's not like we're some kind of archaic dictatorship. It's not like game integrity is at stake either. So really, I don't think there is a systemic problem. And even assuming there would be one, it would stop nothing. All it'd do is be unfair for staff.[/QUOTE]I'm not suggesting to change one's meta and actually try to stay anon as much as possible. I'm suggesting to use a white acc that obviously still belongs to you simply to further display that you're a player when signing and not an admin. It's not the perfect solution to every ploblem, but a step to simply come forward towards players. A compromise.

In my illustration the snake would be owned by someone else. I by no means intend to say you'd be a snake, but I do wanna say that no matter how much you or someone else, maybe myself, says about how friendly and kind you are, someone who doesn't know may still end up thinking that you might bite, like that snake. I think threads like this are proof that the issue does exist.

I can't say much about other sites. I'm not really involved in anything like this anywhere. It totally is possible that this would be the only site to implement that kinda system if it were to happen. But it's still a good move towards the playerbase, no? And for once this site would actually be pioneering in something that helps players, unlike with changes like the removal of lynch which happened after other sites did it.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Putting something up that restricts staff members' freedom as players (the freedom of having a meta and the stress of having to conceal an identity) when they don't want to and that doesn't actually prevent anything is no "solution"; plus, it's not like abuse actually happened anywhere, unless telling someone, independently from a player identity, that telling someone to be a man and blow their brains out is against the rules is abuse, in which case abuse is literally everywhere.

And if I thought the administration of a community were so deeply corrupt that righteous and legitimate reports would do nothing or would get me banned, well, I'd probably leave that community, because there would no trust in any form of fairness. This isn't the case here.

Your snake illustration has two major flaws:
- The snake and its owner are the same person in the real world. "Biting" would imply that staff has extraordinarily evil intent, it's not like it's something uncontrolled like a snake. If you really believe staff has evil intent, report. Plus...
- ...are you going to tell me that an admin with evil intent, who wants to abuse his powers, won't change accounts, even though it takes 15 seconds to do? The very existence of moderation implies the latent risk of abuse, and it won't change just because you disguise moderators.


And by the way, this kind of suggestion is, as far as I know, completely unprecedented in the worldwide FM community; it's not like we're some kind of archaic dictatorship. It's not like game integrity is at stake either. So really, I don't think there is a systemic problem. And even assuming there would be one, it would stop nothing. All it'd do is be unfair for staff.

I'm not suggesting to change one's meta and actually try to stay anon as much as possible. I'm suggesting to use a white acc that obviously still belongs to you simply to further display that you're a player when signing and not an admin. It's not the perfect solution to every ploblem, but a step to simply come forward towards players. A compromise.

In my illustration the snake would be owned by someone else. I by no means intend to say you'd be a snake, but I do wanna say that no matter how much you or someone else, maybe myself, says about how friendly and kind you are, someone who doesn't know may still end up thinking that you might bite, like that snake. I think threads like this are proof that the issue does exist.

I can't say much about other sites. I'm not really involved in anything like this anywhere. It totally is possible that this would be the only site to implement that kinda system if it were to happen. But it's still a good move towards the playerbase, no? And for once this site would actually be pioneering in something that helps players, unlike with changes like the removal of lynch which happened after other sites did it.

[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;906725][COLOR="#FF0000"]Literally this.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]That quote is entirely proving the point tho, isn't it? This thread here exists. So obviously that means you, or another admin, did give off the feeling of having flexed admin powers. Same thing with Mesk's thread too. She made it that way because she felt you acted in her game like an admin instead of a player.

The solution of using an acc with white name on the other hand would highlight and show that your sign was made as a player, and you're participating as a player. Even if you're still the same person, using a different acc and as a result having to change accounts for admin actions would be a totally different situation that gives off a far more relaxing feel to other players. It's one more barrier the admin has to cross before getting the chance to act, which he's supposed to never use.

Here, an example to illustrate the situation, without intent of any negative implications. Try imagining having a tame but deadly snake in front of you. The guy owning the snake says it's harmless, but there's still the chance it's gonna bite. Then imagine there's a glass door between you and the snake. Even knowing the snake could just get through the door if it wanted to, you'd be far more relaxed with the barrier than without, wouldn't you? I think that's roughly comparable here.

The extra account would be that barrier, and by placing it you're showing everyone that you actually really mean it when you're saying that you're only participating as player instead of admin. Mesk fairly clearly said she didn't feel like you're just acting like a player, so I think showing it that way would be great.

I'm not even trying to criticise the actions you took or are taking as admin. You should know by now that I'd just tell you on discord if I felt like that. I'm going by the responses that were displayed by several players so far here. These threads here show that just your simple words about acting and playing as player instead of admin don't mean enough. This is mafia after all, words mean shit here.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Literally this.

That quote is entirely proving the point tho, isn't it? This thread here exists. So obviously that means you, or another admin, did give off the feeling of having flexed admin powers. Same thing with Mesk's thread too. She made it that way because she felt you acted in her game like an admin instead of a player.

The solution of using an acc with white name on the other hand would highlight and show that your sign was made as a player, and you're participating as a player. Even if you're still the same person, using a different acc and as a result having to change accounts for admin actions would be a totally different situation that gives off a far more relaxing feel to other players. It's one more barrier the admin has to cross before getting the chance to act, which he's supposed to never use.

Here, an example to illustrate the situation, without intent of any negative implications. Try imagining having a tame but deadly snake in front of you. The guy owning the snake says it's harmless, but there's still the chance it's gonna bite. Then imagine there's a glass door between you and the snake. Even knowing the snake could just get through the door if it wanted to, you'd be far more relaxed with the barrier than without, wouldn't you? I think that's roughly comparable here.

The extra account would be that barrier, and by placing it you're showing everyone that you actually really mean it when you're saying that you're only participating as player instead of admin. Mesk fairly clearly said she didn't feel like you're just acting like a player, so I think showing it that way would be great.

I'm not even trying to criticise the actions you took or are taking as admin. You should know by now that I'd just tell you on discord if I felt like that. I'm going by the responses that were displayed by several players so far here. These threads here show that just your simple words about acting and playing as player instead of admin don't mean enough. This is mafia after all, words mean shit here.

I think the root problem is that for example aamirus saying someone gamethrows as part of her scumgame has much more impact and might get people to actually take it serious when her name is red, than it would if she was on the white smurf acc bbmirus. Being known or not isn't the problem here, just that use of the account with colour also implies that the powers are there and the action can be taken at any time. When it's a (not anonymous) smurf acc it kinda tells you mod status is now off, and the only people doing something are the other mods outside the game

I think the root problem is that for example aamirus saying someone gamethrows as part of her scumgame has much more impact and might get people to actually take it serious when her name is red, than it would if she was on the white smurf acc bbmirus. Being known or not isn't the problem here, just that use of the account with colour also implies that the powers are there and the action can be taken at any time. When it's a (not anonymous) smurf acc it kinda tells you mod status is now off, and the only people doing something are the other mods outside the game