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[QUOTE=DarknessB;610508]Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input [I]before[/I] assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."

Originally Posted by DarknessB

Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.

I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input before assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."

[QUOTE=Calix;610503]MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.[/QUOTE]
It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask [MENTION=28243]Unknown1234[/MENTION] or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.

Originally Posted by Calix

MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.

It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask @Unknown1234 or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.

[QUOTE=Unknown1234;610500]Um.[/QUOTE]
The Drug Dealer in that S-FM... didn't quite work as it does in usual FMs.

Originally Posted by Unknown1234

Um.

The Drug Dealer in that S-FM... didn't quite work as it does in usual FMs.

[QUOTE=DarknessB;610489]Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.[/QUOTE]
We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: [MENTION=27821]PowersThatBe[/MENTION], how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?

Originally Posted by DarknessB

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: @PowersThatBe , how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?

[QUOTE=DarknessB;610481]I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.[/QUOTE]
None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.

Originally Posted by DarknessB

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610478]I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

[COLOR="#FFFFFF"][COLOR="#FF0000"]Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00FF00"]Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen[/COLOR]

Possible Hidden [COLOR="#FF0000"]Mafia[/COLOR]: [COLOR="#FF0000"]Actress[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Consigliere[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Consort[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Drug Dealer[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Janitor[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Mafioso[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Tailor[/COLOR].
Possible Hidden [COLOR="#00FF00"]Town[/COLOR]: [COLOR="#00FF00"]Architect[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Blacksmith[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Bodyguard[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Bus Driver[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Citizen[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Detective[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Doctor[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Escort[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Mason[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Mayor[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Sheriff[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Veteran[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Vigilante[/COLOR].[/COLOR]


This would also be balanced.[/QUOTE]
I worry that 3v7 would be a little too scumsided. There's also the matter that I think SJ is aiming more for 7-9 players. Perhaps 2v6 or 2v7?

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.

I worry that 3v7 would be a little too scumsided. There's also the matter that I think SJ is aiming more for 7-9 players. Perhaps 2v6 or 2v7?

This thread is going off on way too many tangents. The matter at hand is the next starter game.

This is SC2 Mafia. Our main player draw is going to be players from the mod. The point of the starter game is to draw them in, get them involved in FM, and hopefully teach them a thing or two about the differences between the mod and FM. The question to be answered is: [I]what setup best optimizes these three goals?[/I]

Unknown and PTB, two players from the previous start game, have commented that they wouldn't have preferred an overly simple a game. While a simple game may be good for improving skills, it likely doesn't do well on the first two goals of drawing players and getting them involved.

Cryptonic posted a very nice setup, and what to do about this setup should be the next thing to discuss:
[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610418][COLOR="#FFFFFF"][COLOR="#FF0000"]Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00FFFF"]Hidden Neutral[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00FF00"]Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen[/COLOR]

Possible Hidden [COLOR="#FF0000"]Mafia[/COLOR]: [COLOR="#FF0000"]Actress[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Consigliere[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Consort[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Drug Dealer[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Janitor[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Mafioso[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FF0000"]Tailor[/COLOR].
Possible Hidden [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Neutral[/COLOR]: [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Amnesiac[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Executioner[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Jester[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Student[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Survivor[/COLOR].
Possible Hidden [COLOR="#00FF00"]Town[/COLOR]: [COLOR="#00FF00"]Architect[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Blacksmith[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Bodyguard[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Bus Driver[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Citizen[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Detective[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Doctor[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Escort[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Mason[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Mayor[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Sheriff[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Veteran[/COLOR], [COLOR="#00FF00"]Vigilante[/COLOR].[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

This thread is going off on way too many tangents. The matter at hand is the next starter game.

This is SC2 Mafia. Our main player draw is going to be players from the mod. The point of the starter game is to draw them in, get them involved in FM, and hopefully teach them a thing or two about the differences between the mod and FM. The question to be answered is: what setup best optimizes these three goals?

Unknown and PTB, two players from the previous start game, have commented that they wouldn't have preferred an overly simple a game. While a simple game may be good for improving skills, it likely doesn't do well on the first two goals of drawing players and getting them involved.

Cryptonic posted a very nice setup, and what to do about this setup should be the next thing to discuss:

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Neutral

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Neutral: Amnesiac, Executioner, Jester, Student, Survivor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.

[QUOTE=PowersThatBe;610447]And I would have preferred a game full of unique roles.[/QUOTE]
Do you mean unique in the sense that each person has a power role that they can't, even in theory, share with someone else, or that the roles are less commonly seen on the site?

Originally Posted by PowersThatBe

And I would have preferred a game full of unique roles.

Do you mean unique in the sense that each person has a power role that they can't, even in theory, share with someone else, or that the roles are less commonly seen on the site?

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610436]It's not identical, so you're both wrong if you agree lol.

The point isn't to train their Forum Mafia skills, it's to gather interest and ensure they have an enjoyable time.


What's the point of having a super basic, low action game? How does this benefit a beginner's perception of Forum Mafia?[/QUOTE]
We don't need to go super basic or TPR fest. There's a comfortable middle ground here with a fair amount of citizens, something like potentially like the setup you proposed. That middle ground is where S-FMs tend to be, anyways.

But let's ask the participants of last time's starter game how they felt.
[MENTION=27821]PowersThatBe[/MENTION], do you think you would have preferred to play the starter game with more or fewer TPRs? (or about the same?)

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

It's not identical, so you're both wrong if you agree lol.

The point isn't to train their Forum Mafia skills, it's to gather interest and ensure they have an enjoyable time.


What's the point of having a super basic, low action game? How does this benefit a beginner's perception of Forum Mafia?

We don't need to go super basic or TPR fest. There's a comfortable middle ground here with a fair amount of citizens, something like potentially like the setup you proposed. That middle ground is where S-FMs tend to be, anyways.

But let's ask the participants of last time's starter game how they felt.
@PowersThatBe , do you think you would have preferred to play the starter game with more or fewer TPRs? (or about the same?)

[QUOTE=DarknessB;610431]196 was experimental by admission, 197 was 100% role randomized and had a naive sheriff, 199 was a trolly game. This is the reason we're having a vanilla queue, lol.[/QUOTE]
They were all fairly good games and within the bounds of typical S-FMs. We're not as addicted to investigative roles as you might believe.

Originally Posted by DarknessB

196 was experimental by admission, 197 was 100% role randomized and had a naive sheriff, 199 was a trolly game. This is the reason we're having a vanilla queue, lol.

They were all fairly good games and within the bounds of typical S-FMs. We're not as addicted to investigative roles as you might believe.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610428]They aren't retarded, nor are they children. It's not their first time playing Mafia if we're pulling them from the Mod.
People who play the SC2 Mod are used to a high TPR setup. We should keep the same spirit to maintain interest.
You think someone who plays fast pace Mafia all the time wants to come and play a slow game where no one posts any information because they're not accustomed to so many players having no action? I personally don't think people would have a lot of fun. Would it increase skills? Sure, but that's not what these games are accomplishing. We want people to be interested in what FM has to offer, so a happy medium between SC2 Mafia + Basic Scum Hunting game is definitely the way to go.


Also, you state you want them to have a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is. Most regular S-FMs are not a follow the cop basic game with majority Citizens.[/QUOTE]
There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

They aren't retarded, nor are they children. It's not their first time playing Mafia if we're pulling them from the Mod.
People who play the SC2 Mod are used to a high TPR setup. We should keep the same spirit to maintain interest.
You think someone who plays fast pace Mafia all the time wants to come and play a slow game where no one posts any information because they're not accustomed to so many players having no action? I personally don't think people would have a lot of fun. Would it increase skills? Sure, but that's not what these games are accomplishing. We want people to be interested in what FM has to offer, so a happy medium between SC2 Mafia + Basic Scum Hunting game is definitely the way to go.


Also, you state you want them to have a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is. Most regular S-FMs are not a follow the cop basic game with majority Citizens.

There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

[QUOTE=DarknessB;610420]Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?[/QUOTE]
"99%" is a fair bit of an exaggeration. For instance, S-FMs 196, 197, and 199 did not have town investigative roles.

Originally Posted by DarknessB

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?

"99%" is a fair bit of an exaggeration. For instance, S-FMs 196, 197, and 199 did not have town investigative roles.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610416]Lmao, not that unique. More Unique roles, Less Unique Mechanics lol[/QUOTE]
What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

Lmao, not that unique. More Unique roles, Less Unique Mechanics lol

What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

[QUOTE=DarknessB;610396]In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.[/QUOTE]
Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

Originally Posted by DarknessB

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

[QUOTE=Unknown1234;610389]The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over[/QUOTE]
I'm proposing BD as an alternative to Sheriffs or other investigative precisely because it encourages reading people and trying to figure out who to try to run over.

If game ends N1, it's because the town played very well.

Originally Posted by Unknown1234

The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over

I'm proposing BD as an alternative to Sheriffs or other investigative precisely because it encourages reading people and trying to figure out who to try to run over.

If game ends N1, it's because the town played very well.

[QUOTE=SuperJack;610386]Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback[/QUOTE]
I'd agree.

Also BD can't bus self.

Originally Posted by SuperJack

Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback

I'd agree.

Also BD can't bus self.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Mafioso[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#FF0000"]Mafioso[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Bus Driver[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Doctor[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Citizen[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Citizen[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Citizen[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Citizen[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Citizen[/COLOR]

Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen