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[QUOTE=Space Milk;963867]Virtually every lobby including the one I am playing in right now contains some problematic -ism that go unpassed because outside of one mod I see every now and then, you moderators do not play your own game. And furthermore, the players do not care enough to report. Like hell I'm going to help any of you and report it myself.

I like this game. Frankly, my only bad experiences with this game were nearly 10 years ago when there was an overabundance of moderators who paid money for their position, then abused their privileges in lobbies. In fact that was part of the original reason why I even made this account in 2013, then stopped posting for nearly a decade. This game has been fine since I resumed around 2019 or so beyond slow lobbies. I seriously hope you all realize your place as unpaid, unknown caretakers of a dying mod of a dying game - and then see the value in protecting and nurturing your creation, because it is fun and people like it. You don't need to make up a heroic grand narrative with a moral objective that is impossible to fulfill. If moral fulfillment is what you really want in your life, there are better vectors for that than StarCraft 2.[/QUOTE]

Over the last 10 years I have had a very good understanding of how people got where they were. If you have any real reason to think someone got where they were by paying feel free to substantiate it.

I do get your point on over moderation although I also do not agree with how you applied it. I have a very personal understanding of how it feels when bad moderators label you as hateful but a lot of it comes down to the 'why.' When its the community saying they do not want to deal with pedo/racist role play and people are arguing its just part of the game it is very different than moderators enforcing their world view or framing people as hateful out of context.

At the end of the day from a utilitarianist perspective moderation is about creating an environment for people to have fun in. When the majority of players have an issue with a small groups behavior that small group should get moderated. That has nothing to do with the personal openions of the moderators.

In my experience with shitty communities when moderators go on power trips you can identify patterns of them saying 1 thing to the community and doing something totally different in action. And taking extreme liberty's with how rules are interpreted while working to silence discussion about their actions.

That said, I think you do genuinely care and have a legitimate complaint but you are absolutely going about it in the wrong way and on the wrong issues. I think you are somewhat getting dog piled here but you are also getting pigeon holed into supporting a pro-racist/sexist/nazi/pedo position. It may be good for you to clarify what your position is if it is not to allow for those extremes of speech.

Originally Posted by Space Milk

Virtually every lobby including the one I am playing in right now contains some problematic -ism that go unpassed because outside of one mod I see every now and then, you moderators do not play your own game. And furthermore, the players do not care enough to report. Like hell I'm going to help any of you and report it myself.

I like this game. Frankly, my only bad experiences with this game were nearly 10 years ago when there was an overabundance of moderators who paid money for their position, then abused their privileges in lobbies. In fact that was part of the original reason why I even made this account in 2013, then stopped posting for nearly a decade. This game has been fine since I resumed around 2019 or so beyond slow lobbies. I seriously hope you all realize your place as unpaid, unknown caretakers of a dying mod of a dying game - and then see the value in protecting and nurturing your creation, because it is fun and people like it. You don't need to make up a heroic grand narrative with a moral objective that is impossible to fulfill. If moral fulfillment is what you really want in your life, there are better vectors for that than StarCraft 2.

Over the last 10 years I have had a very good understanding of how people got where they were. If you have any real reason to think someone got where they were by paying feel free to substantiate it.

I do get your point on over moderation although I also do not agree with how you applied it. I have a very personal understanding of how it feels when bad moderators label you as hateful but a lot of it comes down to the 'why.' When its the community saying they do not want to deal with pedo/racist role play and people are arguing its just part of the game it is very different than moderators enforcing their world view or framing people as hateful out of context.

At the end of the day from a utilitarianist perspective moderation is about creating an environment for people to have fun in. When the majority of players have an issue with a small groups behavior that small group should get moderated. That has nothing to do with the personal openions of the moderators.

In my experience with shitty communities when moderators go on power trips you can identify patterns of them saying 1 thing to the community and doing something totally different in action. And taking extreme liberty's with how rules are interpreted while working to silence discussion about their actions.

That said, I think you do genuinely care and have a legitimate complaint but you are absolutely going about it in the wrong way and on the wrong issues. I think you are somewhat getting dog piled here but you are also getting pigeon holed into supporting a pro-racist/sexist/nazi/pedo position. It may be good for you to clarify what your position is if it is not to allow for those extremes of speech.

[QUOTE=OzyWho;932014]Speaking of which, [MENTION=10617]Helz[/MENTION], what happened to this?:[/QUOTE]

Ehh, If its on the racism thing I plan on making a topic at some point. I am just swamped with taking on too many projects like I always do and I am going to communicate with to individuals prior to speaking negatively about them. I don't know if you could call it a professional courtesy but the direction I am moving in here is kind of burning a bridge after people have advised me exactly how to suck up to avoid a perma-ban. I have absolutely zero respect for a moderation community that picks and chooses when to follow their own policy's and its a hell of a shame our global community's championship is subjected to such behavior.

On the 'trolls crave attention' thing you would have to be more specific. I still hold both statements you quoted as valid and true.

Originally Posted by OzyWho

Speaking of which, @Helz , what happened to this?:

Ehh, If its on the racism thing I plan on making a topic at some point. I am just swamped with taking on too many projects like I always do and I am going to communicate with to individuals prior to speaking negatively about them. I don't know if you could call it a professional courtesy but the direction I am moving in here is kind of burning a bridge after people have advised me exactly how to suck up to avoid a perma-ban. I have absolutely zero respect for a moderation community that picks and chooses when to follow their own policy's and its a hell of a shame our global community's championship is subjected to such behavior.

On the 'trolls crave attention' thing you would have to be more specific. I still hold both statements you quoted as valid and true.

[QUOTE=theoneceko;931969]iirc more ppl started playing, at least temporarily, when admins recently handed out those bans for racism. mafia got to top 10 for the first time in years.

there are ppl who don't play bc of all the hate speech in the mod, whether it's actually meant or not.

ozy and i are currently off the mod bc of it. also, someone just made a thread which said this game has a real problem with racism. i assume they stopped playing, bc ppl are still spamming a lot of dumb shit[/QUOTE]

[MENTION=31836]Veliaire[/MENTION]

So far expressed opinions reflect that a change in your behavior would equate lower lobby wait times instead of a change in moderators behavior towards 'censorship.'

I can also say I stepped away from playing the mod a year or two back simply because I stopped enjoying the 'culture' I was playing in. There was just too many people spamming offensive things for some sort of shock value. I am curious to see what the rest of the community has to say on the subject.

Originally Posted by theoneceko

iirc more ppl started playing, at least temporarily, when admins recently handed out those bans for racism. mafia got to top 10 for the first time in years.

there are ppl who don't play bc of all the hate speech in the mod, whether it's actually meant or not.

ozy and i are currently off the mod bc of it. also, someone just made a thread which said this game has a real problem with racism. i assume they stopped playing, bc ppl are still spamming a lot of dumb shit

@Veliaire

So far expressed opinions reflect that a change in your behavior would equate lower lobby wait times instead of a change in moderators behavior towards 'censorship.'

I can also say I stepped away from playing the mod a year or two back simply because I stopped enjoying the 'culture' I was playing in. There was just too many people spamming offensive things for some sort of shock value. I am curious to see what the rest of the community has to say on the subject.

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931953]Half of it is cracking jokes, but it comes from recent world events. I happen to believe that Israelis are modern day Nazis for what they are doing in Gaza and the West Bank and I wont be bullied by the PC police into staying silent.[/QUOTE]

I kinda feel like you are just saying this to close out a bunch of conversations you started but do not want to continue but its ok. I hope you reflect on some of the the ways I have challenged your belief systems and do not just invalidate them. I do feel that continuing the thought processes associated with a number of the positions you expressed could draw out some growth as a person even if it is not in a direction we both agree with.

Originally Posted by Veliaire

Half of it is cracking jokes, but it comes from recent world events. I happen to believe that Israelis are modern day Nazis for what they are doing in Gaza and the West Bank and I wont be bullied by the PC police into staying silent.

I kinda feel like you are just saying this to close out a bunch of conversations you started but do not want to continue but its ok. I hope you reflect on some of the the ways I have challenged your belief systems and do not just invalidate them. I do feel that continuing the thought processes associated with a number of the positions you expressed could draw out some growth as a person even if it is not in a direction we both agree with.

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931948]If you let complete stranger's words on the internet have as much power over you as your mother's then you've got bigger problems than can be addressed by censorship. [/QUOTE]
I do agree, But this is totally erroneous to your point and my counter that words do not matter or that they only hurt people if they choose to allow them to do so. Words very much can and do hurt and while I absolutely agree with you on your previous point of (insinuated) thick skin being a good thing I also feel like your point I was responding to here that words can't hurt is either contrived or dumb. This is underscored by your own point in the next statement:

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931948]Are you really comparing the words of an anonymous person online who has no idea who you are and where you live with someone who lives right next door to you? Not all things are equal. A complete stranger talking crap online is not the same as your next door neighbor threatening to kill your family. No rational person would think they are either. [/QUOTE] So as I was pushing earlier lines must be established and those lines must be interpreted by the feelings of the receiver.
And trust me, I am one hell of an advocate for how people present themselves as victims to weaponize social structures against people they have problems with. I take a lot of shit for that. But I do feel my logic is sound and your words reflect agreement with my position in spite of the obvious exploit I am confident we both also share in our thoughts.

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931948]What you've described is doxing, which is a crime and not protected speech... and I don't need to be "protected" from speech. If someone feels the need to tell me they want to kill me and my family, I have to admit I laugh. Empty threats from someone who I've triggered make me laugh.. but yes, I have muted people before for spamming me. That's just annoying.[/QUOTE] Fair point. I legit muted some people who gave me death threats in the past but I honestly just did not think you had the balls to be the same.

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931948]I'm gonna say what I want when I want. The only reason I play this game instead of Town of Salem is because it isn't policed by Nazis.. or at least it wasn't, before. If it gets to the point where I am getting banned for my speech then I might as well play a game that doesn't take 20 minutes to get started. Hell, I've already paid for it so I might as well play it.[/QUOTE]
All I can say here is you do you. I personally do not believe any social function of scale can exist without some level of moderation. If you want to simultaneously crack Jew jokes and call the people fighting against them Nazis its a bit....

(You finish this statement and understand what I am thinking behind my keyboard)

Originally Posted by Veliaire

If you let complete stranger's words on the internet have as much power over you as your mother's then you've got bigger problems than can be addressed by censorship.

I do agree, But this is totally erroneous to your point and my counter that words do not matter or that they only hurt people if they choose to allow them to do so. Words very much can and do hurt and while I absolutely agree with you on your previous point of (insinuated) thick skin being a good thing I also feel like your point I was responding to here that words can't hurt is either contrived or dumb. This is underscored by your own point in the next statement:

Originally Posted by Veliaire

Are you really comparing the words of an anonymous person online who has no idea who you are and where you live with someone who lives right next door to you? Not all things are equal. A complete stranger talking crap online is not the same as your next door neighbor threatening to kill your family. No rational person would think they are either.

So as I was pushing earlier lines must be established and those lines must be interpreted by the feelings of the receiver.
And trust me, I am one hell of an advocate for how people present themselves as victims to weaponize social structures against people they have problems with. I take a lot of shit for that. But I do feel my logic is sound and your words reflect agreement with my position in spite of the obvious exploit I am confident we both also share in our thoughts.

Originally Posted by Veliaire

What you've described is doxing, which is a crime and not protected speech... and I don't need to be "protected" from speech. If someone feels the need to tell me they want to kill me and my family, I have to admit I laugh. Empty threats from someone who I've triggered make me laugh.. but yes, I have muted people before for spamming me. That's just annoying.

Fair point. I legit muted some people who gave me death threats in the past but I honestly just did not think you had the balls to be the same.

Originally Posted by Veliaire

I'm gonna say what I want when I want. The only reason I play this game instead of Town of Salem is because it isn't policed by Nazis.. or at least it wasn't, before. If it gets to the point where I am getting banned for my speech then I might as well play a game that doesn't take 20 minutes to get started. Hell, I've already paid for it so I might as well play it.

All I can say here is you do you. I personally do not believe any social function of scale can exist without some level of moderation. If you want to simultaneously crack Jew jokes and call the people fighting against them Nazis its a bit....

(You finish this statement and understand what I am thinking behind my keyboard)

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931942]Let me put it this way, I think anti-cyberbullying laws are unconstitutional. People should be allowed to say whatever they want online, no matter how offensive. It is up to us, as individuals, to filter out what we don't want to hear. This game has a -mute feature that I use myself when someone is spamming... but I never use for stuff like racism because who cares? Seriously. They are just words. My parents told me not to let words hurt me when I was a toddler. More people should take that approach these days instead of reporting everything someone says that hurts their feelings.

Also that last line about protecting the community I disagree with. I think censorship hurts the community, not protects it.[/QUOTE]

While I do agree with you that a heavy amount of the 'kid gloves' mentality in our society is bad social structures depend on establishing norms and there is little more in this life that matters more than words simply because they convey ideas, beliefs, and loyalty's. You can say 'sticks and stones' but if your mother and father said they hated you and you only live because your abortion failed as a child it probably would have hurt you.

I bet if I spoke words of desire to rape, torture, and murder your family while I lived next door you would probably take issue and demand some level of protection because those words were threatening to you and the lives of those you cared about. If you accept such spoken words would be threatening to you how can you dissociate such direct threats and the reaction they generate (followed by the protection they are given by a community) from the indirect implications that are given with racism to individuals who's families have experienced literal genocide? Sure, The threat provided would be more substantial but the personal experience that it would be executed would be much less justified.

Would you feel protected by being able to 'mute' someone you felt threatened you and your loved ones? Would you be ok with someone say.. Reveling your personal address right now as you speak and declaring a racist lived at that location to a large group of people? Those are just words after all.

Also, we are talking about your personal beliefs here. If you hear the greater community takes issue with such behavior would you be willing to change your behavior to conform to social norms instead of blaming the enforcing power structure of a community?

Originally Posted by Veliaire

Let me put it this way, I think anti-cyberbullying laws are unconstitutional. People should be allowed to say whatever they want online, no matter how offensive. It is up to us, as individuals, to filter out what we don't want to hear. This game has a -mute feature that I use myself when someone is spamming... but I never use for stuff like racism because who cares? Seriously. They are just words. My parents told me not to let words hurt me when I was a toddler. More people should take that approach these days instead of reporting everything someone says that hurts their feelings.

Also that last line about protecting the community I disagree with. I think censorship hurts the community, not protects it.

While I do agree with you that a heavy amount of the 'kid gloves' mentality in our society is bad social structures depend on establishing norms and there is little more in this life that matters more than words simply because they convey ideas, beliefs, and loyalty's. You can say 'sticks and stones' but if your mother and father said they hated you and you only live because your abortion failed as a child it probably would have hurt you.

I bet if I spoke words of desire to rape, torture, and murder your family while I lived next door you would probably take issue and demand some level of protection because those words were threatening to you and the lives of those you cared about. If you accept such spoken words would be threatening to you how can you dissociate such direct threats and the reaction they generate (followed by the protection they are given by a community) from the indirect implications that are given with racism to individuals who's families have experienced literal genocide? Sure, The threat provided would be more substantial but the personal experience that it would be executed would be much less justified.

Would you feel protected by being able to 'mute' someone you felt threatened you and your loved ones? Would you be ok with someone say.. Reveling your personal address right now as you speak and declaring a racist lived at that location to a large group of people? Those are just words after all.

Also, we are talking about your personal beliefs here. If you hear the greater community takes issue with such behavior would you be willing to change your behavior to conform to social norms instead of blaming the enforcing power structure of a community?

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931938]What kind of social interactions are acceptable varies between social circles. One should always choose one's friends wisely. We shouldn't be looking for big tech and its moderators to tell us what is ethical and how we should be behaving.

I am reminded of all those YouTube/Twitter accounts that were banned for spreading misinformation about Covid, only to find out months later that they were right.

Free Speech is the most important thing we have. It supersedes what you think is ethical or moral, or socially acceptable.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you said here.

But you still have not declared your moral line. It sounds like you are agreeing with me that morality, community management and legality are not things on equal terms and that subjective morality should determine the limitations on free speech that a community sets on itself. So unless I have not read you correctly where are yours? Where do you feel its appropriate for us to draw the line on contentious subjects to protect free speech while also protecting the community?

Originally Posted by Veliaire

What kind of social interactions are acceptable varies between social circles. One should always choose one's friends wisely. We shouldn't be looking for big tech and its moderators to tell us what is ethical and how we should be behaving.

I am reminded of all those YouTube/Twitter accounts that were banned for spreading misinformation about Covid, only to find out months later that they were right.

Free Speech is the most important thing we have. It supersedes what you think is ethical or moral, or socially acceptable.

I agree with everything you said here.

But you still have not declared your moral line. It sounds like you are agreeing with me that morality, community management and legality are not things on equal terms and that subjective morality should determine the limitations on free speech that a community sets on itself. So unless I have not read you correctly where are yours? Where do you feel its appropriate for us to draw the line on contentious subjects to protect free speech while also protecting the community?

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931936]Free speech should be drawn at the law. Profanity, Racism, Sexism, is not illegal. Pedophilia, Genocide, and Rape are illegal.

I don't look to internet chat spaces or video games to teach me what I should or shouldn't say. If you want a sterilized gaming experience that is disconnected from real life, then maybe don't play with other people? Or at the very least, don't play a multi player game that relies on communication. Or do, and simply mute the person who is saying naughty words you don't like. It's that simple![/QUOTE]

Actually Speech about Profanity, Racism, Sexism, Pedophilia, Genocide, and Rape are not illegal.

And if we are going to establish legality for the guide line for whats ok in social interactions it would be totally fine for me to say.. befriend you then bang your wife. Or maybe gain your trust financially then get you to give you all your money. These are the founding ethics a good community should be built on in your opinion?

Originally Posted by Veliaire

Free speech should be drawn at the law. Profanity, Racism, Sexism, is not illegal. Pedophilia, Genocide, and Rape are illegal.

I don't look to internet chat spaces or video games to teach me what I should or shouldn't say. If you want a sterilized gaming experience that is disconnected from real life, then maybe don't play with other people? Or at the very least, don't play a multi player game that relies on communication. Or do, and simply mute the person who is saying naughty words you don't like. It's that simple!

Actually Speech about Profanity, Racism, Sexism, Pedophilia, Genocide, and Rape are not illegal.

And if we are going to establish legality for the guide line for whats ok in social interactions it would be totally fine for me to say.. befriend you then bang your wife. Or maybe gain your trust financially then get you to give you all your money. These are the founding ethics a good community should be built on in your opinion?

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931933]You're right, speech is all we have. Telling people what they can't say is not being inclusive, its forcing your own world view on them. If someone doesn't like what I say, that's there is a -mute feature.

And how I enjoy my games is my own business. I don't play this to "bond" with anyone. I have real friends for that. I play this game to deceive people and win, which is the entire point of the game.[/QUOTE]
Just curious

Do you think there is no problem in expressing profanity? How about Racism? How about Sexism? How about Pedophilia? How about genocide? How about Rape? How about sharing how to kill people? How about saying things to instigate panic to hurt large groups of people? How about assonating a president? How about building bombs? How about how to wage biological warfare? How about creating nuclear weapons?

Where should the line of free speech be drawn? Or should I be free as an explosive expert from the Marines to share my knowledge in bomb building to kill people I don't like with impunity? How about someone with the knowledge of how to build a nuke or wage biological warfare? The line has to be drawn somewhere imo and yes I am taking this to an extreme but its because the question you are asking is one of a spectrum while you are phrasing it as 'If'

And where should that line be drawn in a video game where people simply come together to have an enjoyable social experience. Sure we all want to win but there is a reason pretty much every large multiplayer platform bans acts like real life threats. There are moral and ethical lines that can be violated and you getting a warning here is an example of that.

At the same time I have made some effort to ask the questions behind what you claim to want to the community, as well as some very pertinent ones to challenge your personal belief structure.

Originally Posted by Veliaire

You're right, speech is all we have. Telling people what they can't say is not being inclusive, its forcing your own world view on them. If someone doesn't like what I say, that's there is a -mute feature.

And how I enjoy my games is my own business. I don't play this to "bond" with anyone. I have real friends for that. I play this game to deceive people and win, which is the entire point of the game.

Just curious

Do you think there is no problem in expressing profanity? How about Racism? How about Sexism? How about Pedophilia? How about genocide? How about Rape? How about sharing how to kill people? How about saying things to instigate panic to hurt large groups of people? How about assonating a president? How about building bombs? How about how to wage biological warfare? How about creating nuclear weapons?

Where should the line of free speech be drawn? Or should I be free as an explosive expert from the Marines to share my knowledge in bomb building to kill people I don't like with impunity? How about someone with the knowledge of how to build a nuke or wage biological warfare? The line has to be drawn somewhere imo and yes I am taking this to an extreme but its because the question you are asking is one of a spectrum while you are phrasing it as 'If'

And where should that line be drawn in a video game where people simply come together to have an enjoyable social experience. Sure we all want to win but there is a reason pretty much every large multiplayer platform bans acts like real life threats. There are moral and ethical lines that can be violated and you getting a warning here is an example of that.

At the same time I have made some effort to ask the questions behind what you claim to want to the community, as well as some very pertinent ones to challenge your personal belief structure.

[QUOTE=Veliaire;931927]So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?[/QUOTE]

For my personal opinion its a social game. Speech is just about all there is. I think its less about banning people for saying things you do not agree with and more about creating an inclusive environment community. There are many controversial views in this world and there are places where its appropriate to discuss them. Maybe you should chill on your anti-Semitism or political nonsense in a video game and instead embrace enjoying the game with other people.

If you are not playing to bond with other people and enjoy a mutually pleasurable experience you may have picked the wrong game.

Originally Posted by Veliaire

So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?

For my personal opinion its a social game. Speech is just about all there is. I think its less about banning people for saying things you do not agree with and more about creating an inclusive environment community. There are many controversial views in this world and there are places where its appropriate to discuss them. Maybe you should chill on your anti-Semitism or political nonsense in a video game and instead embrace enjoying the game with other people.

If you are not playing to bond with other people and enjoy a mutually pleasurable experience you may have picked the wrong game.

I think its a valid question.

Although 'Do they play' may not be the actual question but rather what should be moderated.

Cost/Benifit

Having racist humor drives away new players and longevity of the game while eliminating regulars for the same actions hurts games.

Is the goal of moderation to ensure game quantity or quality? What level of morality is acceptable for a trade off? How much of the player base is totally cool with racism?

I dont think these questions were really asked but they would be good topics of discussion for the community if they really want this issue addressed so moderation could follow the community's desire.

I think its a valid question.

Although 'Do they play' may not be the actual question but rather what should be moderated.

Cost/Benifit

Having racist humor drives away new players and longevity of the game while eliminating regulars for the same actions hurts games.

Is the goal of moderation to ensure game quantity or quality? What level of morality is acceptable for a trade off? How much of the player base is totally cool with racism?

I dont think these questions were really asked but they would be good topics of discussion for the community if they really want this issue addressed so moderation could follow the community's desire.