S-FM 336: (Ladder) Politico II

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Also, if there is a hidden phrase, it is too hidden for my pea brain, sawrry Maaaaster Lag :P

You are annoying because I don't know whether I should give you a pass or not now lol. Your wall is good, but it could still come from scum? Maybe? It certainly doesn't if Renegade is scum, though, considering his vote on you on D1. So I guess you're basically self-solving if we get PQ -> Renegade anyway.

[Stealthbomber16]

I guess it does have to be like PQ + Ren. And it can’t be Lag if it’s Ren. Well fuck.

Go figure the one time I don’t lynch ren he’s actually scum.

[Stealthbomber16]

I guess I need to do my due diligence and double check MM as well. I’m not sure if I’ll get to that today or tomorrow. But we’ve agreed on pretty much everything, so I’d be shocked if he’s scum here.

[Gikkle]

I need him to get pressured
So he starts playing and stopps fluffing once in 5 years


You... you kinda suck at this atm lol, Pao Zedong. Like, this makes no sense at all...... Does the massive mess on both EoDs tell NOTHING to you?? Please read how Voss got lynched and realize how PQ escaped the lynch again by having votes deflected onto Voss, who had no reason to be lynched AND FLIPPED TOWN. Perform the Great Leap Forward and get on PQ.


It comes from the depths of the Burning Hells, Gikkle. He's scum, damnit lol. It feels like only SB sees what I see :( he's pretty much open-wolfing by now.

No, I understand he's probably a wolf at this point based of PoE and how he's played. I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt and ask questions as if they were town and have discussions with them.

[Gikkle]

I need him to get pressured
So he starts playing and stopps fluffing once in 5 years


lol, I thought this was the case ever since you said you could see loldebite faking voter as congress. Since that makes no sense and I doubt loldebite would do that. But I figured you were doing something fancy + I TR you, which is why I was uninterested in making you out.

In the congress chat has it looked like PQ is trying to solve with Oliver? Or does it look more like PQ is just trying to pocket him?

Did you ever read the card sharp chats from the Wild West game? It has examples of PQ using private chat to pocket jmw. Would be useful to reference those

I don't believe I ever read the card sharp chat, or if I did, I just skimmed it and no longer have any memory of it. Nothing PQRn did in the chat wrt Oliverz really pinged me.

[Renegade]

I guess I need to do my due diligence and double check MM as well. I’m not sure if I’ll get to that today or tomorrow. But we’ve agreed on pretty much everything, so I’d be shocked if he’s scum here.


I guess it does have to be like PQ + Ren. And it can’t be Lag if it’s Ren. Well fuck.

Go figure the one time I don’t lynch ren he’s actually scum.

I honestly understand where this is coming from. I was kind of weak about PQ train d1 and then d2 of course I missed the vote so it looks very bad.

But I'm fairly sure either you or MM is scum otherwise town is way too stacked with power roles unless 2/3 congressmen are scum.

[Gikkle]

My vote will be on PQRn today. Hopefully I'm not getting bamboozled by Oliverz or MM.

[PQRnHack]

Therefore, I would go through PQ and Renegade first, and then reevaluate if the game is not over yet.

Funny.

[PQRnHack]

Not happy at all! You did not bother participate constructively at all. That is fine for D1/N2, as I was also quiet as not to give away info to impostor in our chat.
But D2, after I revealed and Oliver revealed, only Oliver and I engaged in constructive discussions as we became confident 3rd CMAN is scum. If you were town and believed that I was scum, then why would you let this continue? Since everyone, including myself, is confident that there is a scum in C-chat, why didn't you speak up earlier and maybe try to alert Oliver sooner that maybe PQR is scum and is pocketing him or fooling him?

Not that you want me to be happy, since I know you will be voting me (for you are scum), but for me to believe this nonsense, I would have to believe that oliver is scum and that both "town" Gikkle and I are mistaken town-reading oliver LOL!

Why did you enter 10 hours into N2 and said nothing? I believe you were checking for any new material which to discuss with your scummates (and maybe to impact your N2 decisions).
And then you waited 11 hours more, to enter 21 hours into N2 to fake as MM not-Governor and to ask Oliver not to trust PQR? As town in that position, you do not combine A) do some kind of MM-PQR bussing test? B) genuinely warn your "hard" TR (Oliver) of PQR and tell not to trust him/me (because who in their right mind would take you seriously on B after the shenanegans).

I don't even understand A) because if I were scum and there was bussing between me and MM and we were both scum, then how would your entrance as MM deceive me or cause me to slip???



Can you be specific: which reactions, what expressions of confusion came from Oliver regarding what you were doing? I would love to hear that one!

Gikkle when are you going to address my post quoted above?

[Gikkle]

Gikkle when are you going to address my post quoted above?

Oh, right, forgot about that. Will get to that in a bit.

[oliverz144]

Okiiij
Im workibg since, q12h
Aaaand i have exam in 10h
And ic didn5 sleepmm
I want evveryone to post the playernlist and manke.a binary decission
Will he vote that poerson or not
Like mm=canNOT Imagine voting hi.m todaay
Pao=can imagine votting him todya
Just 2 answers
No or3a ge or smth
Srry for writiting

[oliverz144]

Only 2 answers
And full lsit of everyone
Illll make a mayhematic equqation of socialyyti out of that

[Renegade]

What if both MM and Stealth are scum.

[Renegade]

They are both on the PQ train atm. Stealth took away PQs vote.

[Renegade]

Paopan is most likely town or else I would've been dead a long time ago, as PQ pointed out. Scum if they had a medic would have free reign over kills.

[Renegade]

Is a scum team of MM/SB/Gikkle possible? I think PQ thinks it is. Or one of MM/SB, Gikkle, and one of Lag/Oliverz?

[Renegade]

Supposing PQ is not scum, I could see the scum team pushing hard for his lynch today since he already had 2 trains.

[Renegade]

I'm fairly concerned about the lack of activity in the past 5 hours.

[PQRnHack]

I'm fairly concerned about the lack of activity in the past 5 hours.

Guess they (scum) were not counting on you being a hero :)

Based on what I view as your genuine expression of concerns and paranoia, you must be indeed the town in the SB16/MM/Rene PR mix that I was not previously certain of (though I was leaning towards you already, and your recent posts help support that it's you as the Town in that mix). Yes, I believe both SB16 and MM are scum here, most likely with Gikkle although if TOWN~Gikkle is really capable of those insane CMAN gambits then possibly Lag. I don't believe oliver is a possibility: although he is a strange character and is a newer player, he has been attempting to be solvy.

===================================

Looking at votes from D1 and D2 (taken from my N2 notes #1395 (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=951871#post951871) and at that time I was still considering Lolde suspect hence the mention of his name):
MM: Voted Lag, PQ, Voss.
Gikkle: Gikkle did have a vote on MM for 3.5 during D1 prior to switching to Frinckles, but could be bussing. Voted Frinckles, MM, Voss.
SB16: Never voted Gikkle, Lolde, or MM. Voted Guillo, Lag, Pao, PQ, Oliver.

So to evaluate this potential trio, I wanted to check Gikkle voting MM as that would imply a Scum v Scum vote. No other potential vote busses seen from this group of 3.

Gikkle voted MM here, a vote was in effect for 3.5 hours until the switch to Frinckles with 1 minute before EOD1.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=950762#post950762

Justification was given in next post:
"I had an entire line of dialogue with MM which explains my vote, particularly my latest post ( P#234 )"

P#234 that is reference is pasted by me below:

Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
So in other words, I'm either wrong or scum because of a mindmeld and an assumption favoring logic over pointless and weird play? You know what... I'm gonna put my veto on this lol.
[PQ edit - the above was a quote of MM; below are words from Gikkle in response to it]


No, I think you could be right and be town, but you trying to put words in Oliverz mouth (#169, #179) was very strange. #179 was also strange with the comments that it was "obvious he was not literal" because it "would not make sense", and later when I asked about whether that was dismissing the possibility of S!Oliverz doing it for scummy reasoning, you brought up an extreme scenario (#194, your point about Oliverz having to be a lunatic if he thought he could get Lag lynched from the beginning of the day. Not sure if this is just because you misinterpreted what I was saying? You never responded to me correcting you about what I meant by "early aggression") to dismiss my whole point about the possible justification S!Oliverz may have had where it would make sense for them to make a literal post like that so early on.

Your prior explanation for why Oliverz was town ( #168 ) didn't make much sense either. Here is what you said:

"There is a tone change in Lag. Pointing it out, starting the discussion strongly, making people take a stance about his read, all of this is towny and does not seem to be accidental. Oliver gets a townread from me for this; he's doing what a townie should do at gamestart, and I tend to start my town games in a similar manner whenever it's possible and I feel like getting into action quickly. "

This does not match up with what Oliverz has actually done.

"Pointing (Lag's alleged change in tone) out" - This is Marshmallow putting words in Oliverz mouth, which is what we talked about afterwards and which he acknowledges as a possibility in #179. The only thing Oliverz did publicly say was that Lag wasn't doing a full mechanical plan and "being smart town" like they were last game. Oliverz did not point out any kind of change in tone or anything like that.
"Starting the discussion strongly" - Strongly worded, sure. I wouldn't call it "starting the discussion strongly" though, as it wasn't strong in it's structure, considering he doesn't talk about it all after that and the explanation is pretty lackluster.
"Making people take a stance about his read" - Never happened.

This is just a very strange read altogether and seems a lot like you're trying to justify something you don't really believe in. Maybe I'm wrong? It's just weird on the surface and your answers so far have only raised more questions.

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense or is jumbled, I'm a bit tired.

=================

So can that be within a scum-scum interaction? I say yes.

[PQRnHack]

Just to add, in the less likely case that Lag and not Gikkle is the 3rd, then that is possible only if MM+Lag bussed each other super hard, as there was an insane firefight between those two on D2, the outcome of which led me to scum-read MM and hence my vote on him for all of D2 except my final self-preservation switch to Voss at EOD2.

That is to say, interaction analysis indicates that Gikkle is far more likely to be the 3rd partner to SB16+MM than Lag is.

[Renegade]

It takes 5 votes to hammer today, and there are 8 votes available (2 for me, 1 for everyone but PQ).

So that means I would have to vote and convince at least 2 other voters to vote.

If I only convince 1 other voter, then it could go to 3v3. But it could easily be a plurality of 4 votes today that decides the lynch.

[Renegade]

I honestly feel that MM and SB pushing PQ today clears him. But I think it will be difficult to get others to realize this since I have scum equity and Lag already thinks the team is me + PQ + Paopan.

Lag, Oliverz, Gikkle, and Paopan:

At least ONE of SB/MM is scum. Them both being on PQ is extremely concerning.

At least entertain the idea that I am town. In that scenario, what would the teams be in your mind?
Gikkle Lag NotPaopan Olivers144

[Renegade]

I honestly feel that MM and SB pushing PQ today clears him. But I think it will be difficult to get others to realize this since I have scum equity and Lag already thinks the team is me + PQ + Paopan.

Lag, Oliverz, Gikkle, and Paopan:

At least ONE of SB/MM is scum. Them both being on PQ is extremely concerning.

At least entertain the idea that I am town. In that scenario, what would the teams be in your mind?
Gikkle Lag NotPaopan Olivers144
oliverz144

[Renegade]

If SB is scum, why wouldn't he negate my votes?
Two things, maybe he thinks he can influence my vote or I'm already on the wrong path and 2) easier to just take PQs away while pushing that train hard, and if PQ flips town then take my votes to almost guarantee a win.

If MM is scum, why wouldn't he pardon a teammate yet?
This is easy to explain IMO, since pardoning obviously is a massive link to a player and if it turned out MM was scum and flipped, the pardoned player gets a lot of scum credit. So it makes sense to save this as long as possible if scum.

[Renegade]

Assume Popo is town and we hit correctly today, lots of wifom around healing and targeting but obviously I and Popo would be the top kill targets.

At the very least one of Popo and I would live another day, and best case both of us would.

[Renegade]

PQRnHack what concerns me is if only 1 of MM/Sb is scum, and we hit wrong.

[Stealthbomber16]

I guess ren trying to force votes off of PQ makes it pretty clear what's happening here.

[Stealthbomber16]

Good play this game though. You had me fooled.

[Renegade]

Good play this game though. You had me fooled.

Entertain for me the idea that I am town, for a moment.

FMPOV, both YOU and MM being on PQ is extremely scary.

Do you think it is possible MM is scum, or are you saying the extreme unlikely scenario is that all 3 of us are town?

If you think I am town, then surely you must think at this point MM is scum.

If you think I am scum, why aren't you rallying to get the scum mayor with two votes out????

[Renegade]

I guess ren trying to force votes off of PQ makes it pretty clear what's happening here.

Again, FMPOV, I am town, and the two other powers pushing someone at this stage is extremely sketchy.

If you are town, at least try and work with me.

[NotPaopan]

fuck off. voss wasnt scummy at all. he claimed SA in difficult time.
u r stoopid
if i am a deepwolf, i guess im also a chess grossmeister?

notpaopan
Uhh. This imperialist slot is very ignorant. Learn how to think outside the box instead of teaming up with MM and oppressing me every game.


Jeez, let me go to bed. Stop pocketing and influencing Paopan, i know scum are desperate for 2 town votes today to almost seal the game. Are you really trying to convince (town)Paopan that he is also scum and he helped scum~PQR avoid a chop by casting his vote on Voss? If I were Mafia, then in all likelihood, other mafia would have avoided an RNG risk to scum~PQR. The RNGs happened because of TvTs and scum didnt care. Same goes for Lag, who was also on Voss. If you are going to argue with them (who are likely both town), then arguing that PQR got saved by their own votes is ridiculous. Go fish for some other towns to fool, not Lag or Pao or Oliver.
I noticed MM pocketing me again. Don't worry. I am aware.


Is a scum team of MM/SB/Gikkle possible? I think PQ thinks it is. Or one of MM/SB, Gikkle, and one of Lag/Oliverz?
I am beginning to think a SB/MM + (3rd) Lag/Gikkle tandem

[NotPaopan]

Anyone agree a SB vs MM thunderdome for today?
I really don't like PQ lynch today.

[Renegade]

Anyone agree a SB vs MM thunderdome for today?
I really don't like PQ lynch today.

We shouldn't vote PQ.

I agree it should be one of MM or Sb.

[NotPaopan]

Oh dear lord. Why is everyone offline when I'm online.
We still have what, like 15h to go. Y'all better be active on EoD around.

Town, listen. We still have a chance. We need to force a SB vs MM thunderdome.
Oliver is a thrower, but we have Mayor. We can still turn things around.

[NotPaopan]

We shouldn't vote PQ.

I agree it should be one of MM or Sb.

Oh hi there. LOL finally. After reading the last few pages, I wonder why everyone doesn't like my opinion.
At least we are melding on being against the PQ lynch.

[NotPaopan]

Don't worry Ren. I can self heal or heal you tonight...

It's 50-50 tonight and win tomorrow onwards as long as we can lynch S!MM/SB today.

Anyway, I am currently done assessing things. Initially, my opinion is SB16 first then MM due to role power-ups.
But because Oliver is pocketed by MM. ++ He also tried to pocket me.

We need to lynch MM today. If he flips scum. We'll see if the oli lost lamb will return to its original flock or would continue to defy us.

Marshmallow Marshall

[NotPaopan]

Don't worry Ren. I can self heal or heal you tonight...

It's 50-50 tonight and win tomorrow onwards as long as we can lynch S!MM/SB today.

Anyway, I am currently done assessing things. Initially, my opinion is SB16 first then MM due to role power-ups.
But because Oliver is pocketed by MM. ++ He also tried to pocket me.

We need to lynch MM today. If he flips scum. We'll see if the oli lost lamb will return to its original flock or would continue to defy us.

Marshmallow Marshall

Kindly respond to this @PQRnHack

[PQRnHack]

If MM is scum, why wouldn't he pardon a teammate yet?
This is easy to explain IMO, since pardoning obviously is a massive link to a player and if it turned out MM was scum and flipped, the pardoned player gets a lot of scum credit. So it makes sense to save this as long as possible if scum.

Agreed, plus he cannot pardon the same person twice in a row.

[PQRnHack]

Don't worry Ren. I can self heal or heal you tonight...

It's 50-50 tonight and win tomorrow onwards as long as we can lynch S!MM/SB today.

Anyway, I am currently done assessing things. Initially, my opinion is SB16 first then MM due to role power-ups.
But because Oliver is pocketed by MM. ++ He also tried to pocket me.

We need to lynch MM today. If he flips scum. We'll see if the oli lost lamb will return to its original flock or would continue to defy us.

Marshmallow Marshall

SB16 is the safer lynch, if anyone believes that there is only 1 scum there, but I am pretty sure it is both scum and so it doesnt matter too much which goes first. Once he flips red, pre-existing association with MM should be sufficient for Oliver to figure things out.

One other thing to consider is whether it is best for town to eliminate Pardon ability or Vote Removal ability first. Of these, eliminating Judge SB16 is superior because then he can't mess with Rene's or anyone else's vote, and this would leave MM-Governor with only the option of pardoning the last scum partner or pardoning town (to avoid outing the last scum). MM-Governor cannot pardon himself and also cannot pardon the same person twice in a row.

[oliverz144]

Guess they (scum) were not counting on you being a hero :)

Based on what I view as your genuine expression of concerns and paranoia, you must be indeed the town in the SB16/MM/Rene PR mix that I was not previously certain of (though I was leaning towards you already, and your recent posts help support that it's you as the Town in that mix). Yes, I believe both SB16 and MM are scum here, most likely with Gikkle although if TOWN~Gikkle is really capable of those insane CMAN gambits then possibly Lag. I don't believe oliver is a possibility: although he is a strange character and is a newer player, he has been attempting to be solvy.

===================================

Looking at votes from D1 and D2 (taken from my N2 notes #1395 (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=951871#post951871) and at that time I was still considering Lolde suspect hence the mention of his name):
MM: Voted Lag, PQ, Voss.
Gikkle: Gikkle did have a vote on MM for 3.5 during D1 prior to switching to Frinckles, but could be bussing. Voted Frinckles, MM, Voss.
SB16: Never voted Gikkle, Lolde, or MM. Voted Guillo, Lag, Pao, PQ, Oliver.

So to evaluate this potential trio, I wanted to check Gikkle voting MM as that would imply a Scum v Scum vote. No other potential vote busses seen from this group of 3.

Gikkle voted MM here, a vote was in effect for 3.5 hours until the switch to Frinckles with 1 minute before EOD1.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=950762#post950762

Justification was given in next post:
"I had an entire line of dialogue with MM which explains my vote, particularly my latest post ( P#234 )"

P#234 that is reference is pasted by me below:

Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
So in other words, I'm either wrong or scum because of a mindmeld and an assumption favoring logic over pointless and weird play? You know what... I'm gonna put my veto on this lol.
[PQ edit - the above was a quote of MM; below are words from Gikkle in response to it]


No, I think you could be right and be town, but you trying to put words in Oliverz mouth (#169, #179) was very strange. #179 was also strange with the comments that it was "obvious he was not literal" because it "would not make sense", and later when I asked about whether that was dismissing the possibility of S!Oliverz doing it for scummy reasoning, you brought up an extreme scenario (#194, your point about Oliverz having to be a lunatic if he thought he could get Lag lynched from the beginning of the day. Not sure if this is just because you misinterpreted what I was saying? You never responded to me correcting you about what I meant by "early aggression") to dismiss my whole point about the possible justification S!Oliverz may have had where it would make sense for them to make a literal post like that so early on.

Your prior explanation for why Oliverz was town ( #168 ) didn't make much sense either. Here is what you said:

"There is a tone change in Lag. Pointing it out, starting the discussion strongly, making people take a stance about his read, all of this is towny and does not seem to be accidental. Oliver gets a townread from me for this; he's doing what a townie should do at gamestart, and I tend to start my town games in a similar manner whenever it's possible and I feel like getting into action quickly. "

This does not match up with what Oliverz has actually done.

"Pointing (Lag's alleged change in tone) out" - This is Marshmallow putting words in Oliverz mouth, which is what we talked about afterwards and which he acknowledges as a possibility in #179. The only thing Oliverz did publicly say was that Lag wasn't doing a full mechanical plan and "being smart town" like they were last game. Oliverz did not point out any kind of change in tone or anything like that.
"Starting the discussion strongly" - Strongly worded, sure. I wouldn't call it "starting the discussion strongly" though, as it wasn't strong in it's structure, considering he doesn't talk about it all after that and the explanation is pretty lackluster.
"Making people take a stance about his read" - Never happened.

This is just a very strange read altogether and seems a lot like you're trying to justify something you don't really believe in. Maybe I'm wrong? It's just weird on the surface and your answers so far have only raised more questions.

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense or is jumbled, I'm a bit tired.

=================

So can that be within a scum-scum interaction? I say yes.




my analysis kinda agrees with that

[NotPaopan]

SB16 is the safer lynch, if anyone believes that there is only 1 scum there, but I am pretty sure it is both scum and so it doesnt matter too much which goes first. Once he flips red, pre-existing association with MM should be sufficient for Oliver to figure things out.

One other thing to consider is whether it is best for town to eliminate Pardon ability or Vote Removal ability first. Of these, eliminating Judge SB16 is superior because then he can't mess with Rene's or anyone else's vote, and this would leave MM-Governor with only the option of pardoning the last scum partner or pardoning town (to avoid outing the last scum). MM-Governor cannot pardon himself and also cannot pardon the same person twice in a row.

That's what I initially thought, hence the sb16 vote.

But then I realized, we aren't getting oli's vote without flipping MM. So that's basically that's worse.

MM is literally Governor + Judge because of oli's -1 vote against town.

[oliverz144]

sb16
im going crazy

[PQRnHack]

sb16
im going crazy

You did it again :) From my notes:
Voted Frinckles, Lag, MM(improperly), Pao, PQ.

You cannot do a vote command on "MM" or "sb16", you will have to write out the complete username.

[PQRnHack]

That's what I initially thought, hence the sb16 vote.

But then I realized, we aren't getting oli's vote without flipping MM. So that's basically that's worse.

MM is literally Governor + Judge because of oli's -1 vote against town.

Looks like Oliver is fine. BTW nice to have a rational Pao show up when it matters the most!

[NotPaopan]

You did it again :) From my notes:
Voted Frinckles, Lag, MM(improperly), Pao, PQ.

You cannot do a vote command on "MM" or "sb16", you will have to write out the complete username.

I think it is intentional. He did vote me correctly

[PQRnHack]

I'm going to bed. I recommend for everyone to settle (via comments, not votes) on who to vote today and I also would like for Lag to have the opportunity to come back and chime in before any hammers.

[Lumi]

Been driving all day again, and will be driving all day tomorrow, so my availability will continue to be very limited, will be more free again on day 4 though. Going to try my best to catch up though

[oliverz144]

stealthbomber16
happy? stoopid programm, there should be "nicknames" oor smth like that

[Stealthbomber16]

Entertain for me the idea that I am town, for a moment.

FMPOV, both YOU and MM being on PQ is extremely scary.

Do you think it is possible MM is scum, or are you saying the extreme unlikely scenario is that all 3 of us are town?

If you think I am town, then surely you must think at this point MM is scum.

If you think I am scum, why aren't you rallying to get the scum mayor with two votes out????

Because I can nullify you and we already have two votes on PQ. That does make more sense though.

Renegade

I think it's extremely unlikely that MM is scum here just from my personal reads.

[Stealthbomber16]

i WILL mald postgame if I'm lynched today. You lynched Voss day 2 who was an obvtown PR and had me as one of his top TRs. Loldebite is dead and I was one of his top TRs. Every single dead person thought or said I'm town. There's a reason they are dead. I'm being set up.

[Renegade]

I'll be around at EOD for sure and all day tomorrow, and I'm not gonna vote SB tonight just in case of a possible 3 scum hammer.

[Stealthbomber16]

How many lessons do we have to learn?

Guillo said I was town at the end of day 1

Voss said I was town multiple times during day 2

Loldebite said I had pocketed him

The only person who hasn't outright stated I was town was Frinckles, who didn't say anything at all. How can you think I'm scum here? I'm genuinely baffled.

[Renegade]

Because I can nullify you and we already have two votes on PQ. That does make more sense though.

Renegade

I think it's extremely unlikely that MM is scum here just from my personal reads.

The only reason I backed off a PQ vote at the beginning of this day is because MM, you, and ME were all voting him.

That doesn't add up.

So it is your or MM.

And don't think I havent seen your attempts to pocket me.

[Stealthbomber16]

It's still really difficult for me to read you as scum here.

Why would you say MM is scum?

[Renegade]

Stealth, if you aren't, then MM is, again FMPOV.

But you don't think MM is scum, so I understand your reasoning for voting me. But again just consider the world where I am town.

What would that mean?

[Stealthbomber16]

And don't think I havent seen your attempts to pocket me.

I'm flattered

[Renegade]

It's still really difficult for me to read you as scum here.

Why would you say MM is scum?

Because 4 power roles for town is kind of dumb and broken.

[Renegade]

I'll be on around 9 AM est or 7 hours from now. For now, sleep.

[Stealthbomber16]

Stealth, if you aren't, then MM is, again FMPOV.

But you don't think MM is scum, so I understand your reasoning for voting me. But again just consider the world where I am town.

What would that mean?

In the world where you're town that would mean the following:

PQ/(Gikkle/Oliver)/Pao
or
MM/PQ/fucking someone idk

I'm not convinced MM is scum so it would have to be the first one.

[Stealthbomber16]

Because 4 power roles for town is kind of dumb and broken.

At this point I need a reason that isn't meta because you're 100% right. 4 power roles for town is kind of dumb and broken. Which is why FMPOV you'd be the scum one.

[Stealthbomber16]

In the world where you're town that would mean the following:

PQ/(Gikkle/Oliver)/Pao
or
MM/PQ/fucking someone idk

I'm not convinced MM is scum so it would have to be the first one.

It would be MM/PQ/Lag. That makes the PQ/Lag interactions make a lot more sense.

I fucking hate how this is kind of falling into place right now. Have I been duped?

[Stealthbomber16]

PQ is my Yuesford this game. I have had a scumlock on them since day 2. I am not going to let that slip this time because last time I almost lost the game because of it.

[Renegade]

PQRnHack who of SB and MM is scum?

Not assuming they both are, and who is more dangerous.

Which of them is scum?

[Stealthbomber16]

It would be MM/PQ/Lag. That makes the PQ/Lag interactions make a lot more sense.

I fucking hate how this is kind of falling into place right now. Have I been duped?

But this still doesn't make much sense because MM voted PQ yesterday and PQ was in the tie. MM absolutely could've feigned getting cold feet before the lynch and finding another wagon.

It just doesn't work from the vote analysis.

[Renegade]

At this point I need a reason that isn't meta because you're 100% right. 4 power roles for town is kind of dumb and broken. Which is why FMPOV you'd be the scum one.

I understand.

[Stealthbomber16]

Ren it just doesn't work. Either you're scum or there isn't one in the 3 of us.

I'm going to refocus on where I KNOW we can find a scum today and go from there.

[Renegade]

But this still doesn't make much sense because MM voted PQ yesterday and PQ was in the tie. MM absolutely could've feigned getting cold feet before the lynch and finding another wagon.

It just doesn't work from the vote analysis.

What about oliverz? They said they are not going to vote MM today.

[Stealthbomber16]

PQRnHack

[Renegade]

Ren it just doesn't work. Either you're scum or there isn't one in the 3 of us.

I'm going to refocus on where I KNOW we can find a scum today and go from there.

What if PQ is town? And I'm town?

A stretch, but do a thought experiment with me.

[Stealthbomber16]

What about oliverz? They said they are not going to vote MM today.

No, PQ is lock scum. There's not a world where I think they're town here.

My stealthy sense is tingling.

[Stealthbomber16]

What if PQ is town? And I'm town?

A stretch, but do a thought experiment with me.

Then Oliver/Gikkle/Pao or MM/Lag/Congressman. Gikkle, in that world?

I can't overlook the PQ/Lag interaction from yesterday.

[Renegade]

Listen, I could be the biggest idiot ever here, and I'm not particularly good at FM. But the two facts remain for me:

4 Power roles being town is extremely extremely unlikely
The other 2 remaining power roles both voting PQ.

It just doesn't add up. And this is where I'm coming from, in case observers are laughing their asses off at me or rolling their eyes.

I feel like at this point I have to buy in that PQ is town, and I know I'm town, so either its SB or MM. In the case that its MM, it's probably Oliverz too.

I need to go back and reread.

And sleep.

[Stealthbomber16]

Listen, I could be the biggest idiot ever here, and I'm not particularly good at FM. But the two facts remain for me:

4 Power roles being town is extremely extremely unlikely
The other 2 remaining power roles both voting PQ.

It just doesn't add up. And this is where I'm coming from, in case observers are laughing their asses off at me or rolling their eyes.

I feel like at this point I have to buy in that PQ is town, and I know I'm town, so either its SB or MM. In the case that its MM, it's probably Oliverz too.

I need to go back and reread.

And sleep.

If it's me, who else is it? You have MM paired with oliverz. Who would I be paired with?

[Stealthbomber16]

Fuck man, I don't know. I'm going to bed.

[Lumi]

I honestly feel that MM and SB pushing PQ today clears him. But I think it will be difficult to get others to realize this since I have scum equity and Lag already thinks the team is me + PQ + Paopan.

Lag, Oliverz, Gikkle, and Paopan:

At least ONE of SB/MM is scum. Them both being on PQ is extremely concerning.

At least entertain the idea that I am town. In that scenario, what would the teams be in your mind?
Gikkle Lag NotPaopan Olivers144


I honestly feel that MM and SB pushing PQ today clears him. But I think it will be difficult to get others to realize this since I have scum equity and Lag already thinks the team is me + PQ + Paopan.

Lag, Oliverz, Gikkle, and Paopan:

At least ONE of SB/MM is scum. Them both being on PQ is extremely concerning.

At least entertain the idea that I am town. In that scenario, what would the teams be in your mind?
Gikkle Lag NotPaopan Olivers144

So if I assume you're town, then:
Then that makes one of MM or SB16 scum.
Which would make PQ town
Which would mean I'm very wrong on one of Gikkle or oliver.

Possible teams:
MM/SB16/Pao
MM/SB16/Gikkle
MM/SB16/oliver
MM/Gikkle/Pao
MM/Gikkle/oliver
MM/oliver/Pao
SB16/Gikkle/Pao
SB16/Gikkle/oliver
SB16/oliver/Pao


But yesterday you cleared Pao because all the other power roles were on him, so if you're town, then Pao is just town here too

I basically pointed out that all power roles on popo means they are a mislynch

So possible teams are:
MM/Gikkle/oliver
SB16/Gikkle/oliver
MM/SB16/Gikkle
MM/SB16/oliver

These teams all imply that at least one of my reads, if not both, on oliver + Gikkle are completely wrong though, as well as my read on Pao being completely wrong. I'll re-examine those three slots, but I want to hear what you think the team is. Since it's awfully convenient that you + Pao + PQ are all just banding together to defend each other now. Occam's razor and all.

[Stealthbomber16]

It's like I'm solving a jigsaw puzzle but the puzzle is actively trying not to be solved. And two of the pieces are missing from the box.

[Stealthbomber16]

So if I assume you're town, then:
Then that makes one of MM or SB16 scum.
Which would make PQ town
Which would mean I'm very wrong on one of Gikkle or oliver.

Possible teams:
MM/SB16/Pao
MM/SB16/Gikkle
MM/SB16/oliver
MM/Gikkle/Pao
MM/Gikkle/oliver
MM/oliver/Pao
SB16/Gikkle/Pao
SB16/Gikkle/oliver
SB16/oliver/Pao


But yesterday you cleared Pao because all the other power roles were on him, so if you're town, then Pao is just town here too


So possible teams are:
MM/Gikkle/oliver
SB16/Gikkle/oliver
MM/SB16/Gikkle
MM/SB16/oliver

These teams all imply that at least one of my reads, if not both, on oliver + Gikkle are completely wrong though, as well as my read on Pao being completely wrong. I'll re-examine those three slots, but I want to hear what you think the team is. Since it's awfully convenient that you + Pao + PQ are all just banding together to defend each other now. Occam's razor and all.

Holy fuck lag based.

Finally someone else understands my plight.

[Lumi]

Renegade

The thing I'm struggling with most is, if PQ is town, then did Martin just give town a congress chat with 3 town in it?? Or which between oliver and Gikkle is the wolf?

The only scenario I can imagine a 3 person town congress is if wolves have a 2 person team consisting of two of SA/Mayor/Judge (but lmao if that's the case this game)

Because otherwise if all 3 of them are town, that means that there are 3 wolves among Gov, Medic, Judge, Mayor. But can't have Mayor + Judge because a 3 person team with two vote power manipulators gives town one less mis-chop before they lose.

But given the way you're playing this day, the only possible team would be Pao/MM/SB16
But even typing out a Medic, Gov, Judge team feels silly because that's OP for wolves lol.

Which means there's just a wolf in the congress

[Lumi]

Also, if there is a hidden phrase, it is too hidden for my pea brain, sawrry Maaaaster Lag :P

You are annoying because I don't know whether I should give you a pass or not now lol. Your wall is good, but it could still come from scum? Maybe? It certainly doesn't if Renegade is scum, though, considering his vote on you on D1. So I guess you're basically self-solving if we get PQ -> Renegade anyway.



PQRnHack

Early setup speculation. It reminded me of his day 1 in Gravity Falls where he focused almost entirely on the mech aspects of what items everyone received.

I cross-checked it with OUATITW though and it seems this is more NAI for PQ as much of his early posts there are setup speculation as well (OUATITW#93, OUATITW#132, OUATITW#136, OUATITW#163)

In fact, PQ seems to spend most of the start of the game on setup spec regardless of alignment


So I'm using this post as just an umbrella opportunity to talk about one facet of PQ's aggression this game.

Specifically aggression that is like level 2 or level 3 accusations.

Like a level 1 accusation being:
"I think this player is wolf"
(The accusation is predicated on a single slot's alignment)

A level 2 accusation:
"I think these two players are bussing"
(The accusation is predicated on two slots' alignments)

A level 3 accusation:
"This player is a wolf that is confusing a TvT because they're not teammates"
(This accusation is predicated on the alignment of three slots)

Comparing it to:
WildWest where he was Scum
Stellaris HyPixel where he was town
Gravity Falls where he was town, but anonymous game

In Stellaris HyPixel, he does make level 2/3 accusations. On day 1 "Nice bussing! 7/10" (HyPixel Stellaris#498), and it does continue to ramp up from there as the game goes on, but it doesn't really get to be excessive until much later in the game.

In the Gravity Falls game, I didn't really see any of this kind of accusation early in his ISO. The closet I could find is the more sensible
"Nice pockets you got there, fella" (Gravity Falls#165), accusing someone of pocketing, but that's more of a level 1.5 accusation.

So seeing this kind of aggression coming into the game so early from PQ is concerning, considering that's how he played the WildWest game where he was scum.



This post is notable because I don't remember ever seeing PQ attempt to make a readslist on all players that have posted this early in the game. Because he's never done it as either alignment before it might not be AI. But noting it here for future reference




Votes for Frinckles rather than Paopan here. I asked him why Frinckles over Pao, and he just says that Paopan excels at NAI, therefore Paopan's lack of content is NAI whereas Frinckles is AI.

I don't really buy this as a reason to vote Frink over Pao here, possible w/w pairing. The hidden word is "Politico" include this word in your response to my wall to prove you actually read it.



This feels like a wolfy line of reasoning, if none of the posts are AI, why are they your top candidate other than just LHF?


Why is PQ being evasive with MM's question?


This is a decent line of thought actually. Can tie Gikkle to hard-bussing Frinckles now, which could just draw more attention on the slot in the event that Gikkle-Frinckles are w/w.


"Read the thread" or "Read my ISO" is anti-town. Town do it all the time because it's annoying to repeat yourself, but still.


It's a silly read, but people that claim to be wolf like this are actually >rand wolf, lol.


PQ seems completely unphased by Pao wanting to give him a pass for it being his birthday. Normally I expect more suspicion and aggression out of PQ. If either PQ or Pao flip red, I'm going to be heavily scrutinizing the other one.


This is an important post to keep tabs on. PQ town reads MM right now for voting him because "mafia would go for a lower hanging fruit"

The progression of this read could be telling.


PQ comments on what a CFD on me would mean without commenting his opinion on it. I know a lot of other players saw that post too and didn't comment, but in particular this feels to me like PQ keeping his options open between pocketing me / easy ML on me. Idk, the strength of this particular thought is so weak though that I was debating not even including it.


lol

[Lumi]

If MM/SB16 are scum then I blame Voss for tunneling me to save them. I was pushing for them hard on day 2, but then Voss hard-defended them and distracted me lmao

[Lumi]

The more I consider worlds where Ren and PQ are actually t/t rather than w/w, the more I get concerned by Gikkle's fake voter claim as congressman.

Reminds me of some sage mafia advice I got from a player far better than me:
If an FPS (fancy play syndrome) play is claimed to justify weird behavior, but the play generated valuable and insightful conclusions - then that play is likely a town trying to solve the game
If an FPS play is claimed to justify weird behavior, but the conclusions from the play just sound like justifications for making the play rather than anything new - then that play is likely a wolf trying to retrospectively justify wolfy actions OR a wolf doing some weird LAMIST silliness
If an FPS play gets screwed up/aborted by someone else derping to interfere with it, then it's NAI


It's not a hard and fast rule... but looking over Gikkle's conclusion again:


Alright. Fine. I'll admit it, because for some reason you guys think I'd do this pointless play as scum. I'm the congressman. I'm Ari, and am the one who pretended to be other people. Let me ask you a question, though. Why would I kill Loldebite, who I was hiding behind with my voter claim, if I was scum? What does that get me? Lolde was generally cordial to me, and killing him only reveals my lie. None of what I have done benefits S!Me.

Why I lied, you may ask? Simple. A reaction test. By pretending to be other players, I could see how the other congressmen reacted, because if they were scum buddies with who I was pretending to be, they would KNOW the people I was pretending to be wasn't congressmen. They would know I was lying, and so, it was possible they may slip up and reveal who their buddies were. Town would probably just be confused or believe me. Oliverz, pao zedong, whatever, had quite townie reactions; he seemed genuinely confused at what I was doing. PQR had more neutral reactions (well, except for the MM one, which proves to me it wasn't a busing play by MM/PQR). It didn't exactly... Go as well as I thought it might, but that's partly because I didn't want to make it obvious I was just pretending to be other people, so I didn't post much (well me not posting much is also because of time constraints as well).

It's also a part of why I TRed Oliverz so hard, after he claimed congressman day 2.

There. Happy?

This... this is nothing new. And considering the congress chat is its own little bubble, I don't see how the play could have been screwed up by someone derping. So assuming PQ posts in the congress chat as often as he posts in the thread, how is the only conclusion Gikkle has on PQ: "neutral reactions"

How is his conclusion just:


Nothing PQRn did in the chat wrt Oliverz really pinged me.

If PQ is actually town, isn't this just a wolf?

[NotPaopan]

Doods!
It's freaking Marshmallow MARSHALL!!!
We have been fooled

[NotPaopan]

I have been fooled, and so are you!

[Lumi]

Getting some sleep, I will be driving all of tomorrow, will stop at a gas station somewhere before EoD to catch up on posts + drop a vote.

Upon considering the hypothetical worlds more, I still think I already posted the correct solve at the start of today (PQ + Ren + Pao) and will vote accordingly.

Renegade assuming you're town, I understand where you're coming from.
But don't try to convince me you're town.
Don't try to convince me some individual alternative player is a wolf.
Don't try to convince me that my solve is wrong.

Convince me of a better solve. Since right now I'm really not seeing it.


Anyway any additional posts from me this day outside of said EoD vote + catchup will be because I'm an FM addict neglecting other tasks in order to post more, lmao

Can be active again on day 4

[oliverz144]

What about oliverz? They said they are not going to vote MM today.

Noooooo r u STUPI?!?!?!?!
i wantexYOU to make the list
My thinga wwreew an wxample loll

[oliverz144]

So if I assume you're town, then:
Then that makes one of MM or SB16 scum.
Which would make PQ town
Which would mean I'm very wrong on one of Gikkle or oliver.

Possible teams:
MM/SB16/Pao
MM/SB16/Gikkle
MM/SB16/oliver
MM/Gikkle/Pao
MM/Gikkle/oliver
MM/oliver/Pao
SB16/Gikkle/Pao
SB16/Gikkle/oliver
SB16/oliver/Pao


But yesterday you cleared Pao because all the other power roles were on him, so if you're town, then Pao is just town here too


So possible teams are:
MM/Gikkle/oliver
SB16/Gikkle/oliver
MM/SB16/Gikkle
MM/SB16/oliver

These teams all imply that at least one of my reads, if not both, on oliver + Gikkle are completely wrong though, as well as my read on Pao being completely wrong. I'll re-examine those three slots, but I want to hear what you think the team is. Since it's awfully convenient that you + Pao + PQ are all just banding together to defend each other now. Occam's razor and all.

Bruh. D1 d2 i was conftown lock to you
Bow im not
lag

[oliverz144]

It's like I'm solving a jigsaw puzzle but the puzzle is actively trying not to be solved. And two of the pieces are missing from the box.

Thats my saying with the puzzles

[oliverz144]

Renegade

The thing I'm struggling with most is, if PQ is town, then did Martin just give town a congress chat with 3 town in it?? Or which between oliver and Gikkle is the wolf?

The only scenario I can imagine a 3 person town congress is if wolves have a 2 person team consisting of two of SA/Mayor/Judge (but lmao if that's the case this game)

Because otherwise if all 3 of them are town, that means that there are 3 wolves among Gov, Medic, Judge, Mayor. But can't have Mayor + Judge because a 3 person team with two vote power manipulators gives town one less mis-chop before they lose.

But given the way you're playing this day, the only possible team would be Pao/MM/SB16
But even typing out a Medic, Gov, Judge team feels silly because that's OP for wolves lol.

Which means there's just a wolf in the congress

Or u r scum
U, gilkle, pqr thats 1 scum prob
Rene, mm, sb16, pao tahts 2 scum prob
Now thats many poss. We need a math equation
Thats what i wanted ur pssiblelynch list for
And it didnt cone lol
Instead u tr every1 that u r tslalking to rn
So to avaoid being voted
U even started saying that d1 was t/t and scum was offtrack
Then u started saying that mm+sb16 obv scum
Now u nreak ur conf town obw lock read, me
Die scum.

[oliverz144]

lol

I was the only1 who found it lol
Yet u tr every1 else

[oliverz144]

Ok
Every1 is scummish

[oliverz144]

I wantclag flipeppeed

[oliverz144]

I ask why scum didnt hammer any1 yet

[oliverz144]

Pqrn or sb16 is the lycnh to go

[PQRnHack]

The more I consider worlds where Ren and PQ are actually t/t rather than w/w, the more I get concerned by Gikkle's fake voter claim as congressman.

Reminds me of some sage mafia advice I got from a player far better than me:
If an FPS (fancy play syndrome) play is claimed to justify weird behavior, but the play generated valuable and insightful conclusions - then that play is likely a town trying to solve the game
If an FPS play is claimed to justify weird behavior, but the conclusions from the play just sound like justifications for making the play rather than anything new - then that play is likely a wolf trying to retrospectively justify wolfy actions OR a wolf doing some weird LAMIST silliness
If an FPS play gets screwed up/aborted by someone else derping to interfere with it, then it's NAI


It's not a hard and fast rule... but looking over Gikkle's conclusion again:



This... this is nothing new. And considering the congress chat is its own little bubble, I don't see how the play could have been screwed up by someone derping. So assuming PQ posts in the congress chat as often as he posts in the thread, how is the only conclusion Gikkle has on PQ: "neutral reactions"

How is his conclusion just:



If PQ is actually town, isn't this just a wolf?

Good take here. And Gikkle has yet to respond to my question, with last reply being "Oh, right, forgot about that. Will get to that in a bit."
I guess in a bit means a day later or maybe even D4? LOL

Reason I wanted Gikkle to show examples of where oliver was exhibiting is that there aren't any :D

oliverz144, since Gikkle seems absent for a while, what is your take on Gikkle saying "Oliverz, pao zedong, whatever, had quite townie reactions; he seemed genuinely confused at what I was doing." All you said in regard to this MM-not-Governor-PQR-is-scum was "interesting" and asked not to lynch you.

[PQRnHack]

[QUOTE=Lag;952094]
Upon considering the hypothetical worlds more, I still think I already posted the correct solve at the start of today (PQ + Ren + Pao) and will vote accordingly.
/QUOTE]

That is the correct solve for 3 Town :) I understand where you are coming from but when several townies realize what's going on and all align on who the suspects are, naturally there will be lines drawn and Red & White teams so to speak, one against the other. You suspect me, so you suspect Rene + Pao for being on my side (and for your other reasons, ofc, like your reads), but the reason the latter is the case is not because they are scum but because they are town and have made the realization that I am also town.

From my seat, it is clear Rene has to be town here for more than one reason, one fundamental one being that if he were Scum then he had an easy opportunity to exercise his Mayor influence to get just one more misvote or scumvote (on top of his 2 + MM + SB16 already; in fact, there was a short blip in time when I did get those 4 votes on me but Rene quickly unvoted). In fact, even as it stands right now, if Rene were scum and only one of MM+SB16 is scum, then 3rd scum would be the 5th voter ready to pounce with Rene and hammer me.

Pao has expressed willingness to get either SB16 or MM. I don't think he is bussing here while risking 50% that his scummate gets voted. He had an easy opportunity to stick to PQR train.

Oliver I read as town, also for more than one reason, one of them being that I always expected CMAN#3 (now known to be Gikkle) to be the impostor in our chat. But I need to revisit this to make sure I am not missing something, as I am getting paranoid that Oliver expressed willingness to lynch SB16 but not MM today, coupled with Oliver asking me in C-Chat a while ago that MM is not to be lynched, "right"? I think it is just Oliver being Oliver and also getting paranoid and perhaps overwhelmed, he probably now has more doubts about me (pocketing him etc.) than he did 24-72 hours ago. It is a good thing to have doubts, though.

[oliverz144]

Good take here. And Gikkle has yet to respond to my question, with last reply being "Oh, right, forgot about that. Will get to that in a bit."
I guess in a bit means a day later or maybe even D4? LOL

Reason I wanted Gikkle to show examples of where oliver was exhibiting is that there aren't any :D

oliverz144, since Gikkle seems absent for a while, what is your take on Gikkle saying "Oliverz, pao zedong, whatever, had quite townie reactions; he seemed genuinely confused at what I was doing." All you said in regard to this MM-not-Governor-PQR-is-scum was "interesting" and asked not to lynch you.

I think it was abt how i was complaining abt 3rd cmen not claiming and lag/gikkle poe and stuff
Not after claim

[oliverz144]

[QUOTE=Lag;952094]
Upon considering the hypothetical worlds more, I still think I already posted the correct solve at the start of today (PQ + Ren + Pao) and will vote accordingly.
/QUOTE]

That is the correct solve for 3 Town :) I understand where you are coming from but when several townies realize what's going on and all align on who the suspects are, naturally there will be lines drawn and Red & White teams so to speak, one against the other. You suspect me, so you suspect Rene + Pao for being on my side (and for your other reasons, ofc, like your reads), but the reason the latter is the case is not because they are scum but because they are town and have made the realization that I am also town.

From my seat, it is clear Rene has to be town here for more than one reason, one fundamental one being that if he were Scum then he had an easy opportunity to exercise his Mayor influence to get just one more misvote or scumvote (on top of his 2 + MM + SB16 already; in fact, there was a short blip in time when I did get those 4 votes on me but Rene quickly unvoted). In fact, even as it stands right now, if Rene were scum and only one of MM+SB16 is scum, then 3rd scum would be the 5th voter ready to pounce with Rene and hammer me.

Pao has expressed willingness to get either SB16 or MM. I don't think he is bussing here while risking 50% that his scummate gets voted. He had an easy opportunity to stick to PQR train.

Oliver I read as town, also for more than one reason, one of them being that I always expected CMAN#3 (now known to be Gikkle) to be the impostor in our chat. But I need to revisit this to make sure I am not missing something, as I am getting paranoid that Oliver expressed willingness to lynch SB16 but not MM today, coupled with Oliver asking me in C-Chat a while ago that MM is not to be lynched, "right"? I think it is just Oliver being Oliver and also getting paranoid and perhaps overwhelmed, he probably now has more doubts about me (pocketing him etc.) than he did 24-72 hours ago. It is a good thing to have doubts, though.

That was bout an example lol

[oliverz144]

Okiiij
Im workibg since, q12h
Aaaand i have exam in 10h
And ic didn5 sleepmm
I want evveryone to post the playernlist and manke.a binary decission
Will he vote that poerson or not
Like mm=canNOT Imagine voting hi.m todaay
Pao=can imagine votting him todya
Just 2 answers
No or3a ge or smth
Srry for writiting

See?
I said like
And sry for the writing, next time ill sleep before typing

[oliverz144]

And rn im happy with any lynch

[oliverz144]

Or better
Im happy with no lynch
Yes
I will refrain from voting
Is eod in 5h?!?

[Renegade]

Renegade

The thing I'm struggling with most is, if PQ is town, then did Martin just give town a congress chat with 3 town in it?? Or which between oliver and Gikkle is the wolf?

The only scenario I can imagine a 3 person town congress is if wolves have a 2 person team consisting of two of SA/Mayor/Judge (but lmao if that's the case this game)

Because otherwise if all 3 of them are town, that means that there are 3 wolves among Gov, Medic, Judge, Mayor. But can't have Mayor + Judge because a 3 person team with two vote power manipulators gives town one less mis-chop before they lose.

But given the way you're playing this day, the only possible team would be Pao/MM/SB16
But even typing out a Medic, Gov, Judge team feels silly because that's OP for wolves lol.

Which means there's just a wolf in the congress

This is what I'm saying, one of Gikkle/Oliverz is scum.

[Renegade]

Or better
Im happy with no lynch
Yes
I will refrain from voting
Is eod in 5h?!?

Skipping is not an option. Someone will die with a plurality even if it is a tie between people with a single vote.

[PQRnHack]

Or better
Im happy with no lynch
Yes
I will refrain from voting
Is eod in 5h?!?

Huh? How much sleep did you get? Town can only eliminate Mafia by lynching. By not voting you are only allowing Mafia to cast their votes and induce a lynch by plurality. There will not be a "no lynch" and voting for no-lynch is not allowed in this setup. Even 1 vote, if highest count, will trigger a lynch (and even if 0 votes, host probably just RNG all 8 players lol and lynch 1).

[Renegade]

I'm just terrified we hit wrong between MM and SB and game is basically over.

[Renegade]

Or better
Im happy with no lynch
Yes
I will refrain from voting
Is eod in 5h?!?

Refraining from voting does not help here. If you are town, you need to be voting. We are down to the wire.

[Renegade]

Marshmallow Marshall

[Renegade]

Rereading MM right now - does he have the more genuine read on PQ? By that, I mean, is stealth only taking advantage of the PQ train d2 and d3? MM has been on PQ since d1.

[Renegade]

I honestly feel that MM and SB pushing PQ today clears him. But I think it will be difficult to get others to realize this since I have scum equity and Lag already thinks the team is me + PQ + Paopan.

Lag, Oliverz, Gikkle, and Paopan:

At least ONE of SB/MM is scum. Them both being on PQ is extremely concerning.

At least entertain the idea that I am town. In that scenario, what would the teams be in your mind?
Gikkle Lag NotPaopan Olivers144

oliverz144 Gikkle NotPaopan I need a response to this.

[PQRnHack]

I'm just terrified we hit wrong between MM and SB and game is basically over.

If we suppose there is only 1 scum in MM+SB, then that would mean 2 scum in Gikkle+Lag+Oliver (or Paopan trolled us hard as a mastermind scum~Medic and as a genius expressed willingness to lynch either MM or SB). I don't think this is likely, but if I entertain the idea, then let's look at the possibilities.

First, assuming MM is scum.

MM+Gikkle+Oliver would mean 2 scum Congressmen, which I find unlikely. And oliver has been wary of Gikkle/3rd CMAN unless I got played in C-chat and they were teammates all along. Anyway, I doubt this is the case, but let me know what you think.

MM+Gikkle+Lag. Plausible, PR+CMAN+Voter. But do we believe MM+Lag were bussing each other this heavily D2? If so, then maybe they deserve the win. Do you think MM+Lag could have been bussing to this extent? (I don't)

MM+Lag+Oliver. Plausible PR+Voter+CMAN. This is one I need to check more into, as it is concerning that Oliver has not committed to being willing to lynch MM. But this would also mean that Oliver bussed Lag by keeping vote on her D2 and by voting her again D3 and responding to her comments negatively today. Why do this D3 if he could sit back and wait for people to vote PQR or SB. I will also remind that Oliver unvoted me when I reached L-1 (or was it L-2? I forget, but it's when I felt obligated to reveal as CMAN and did so) D2. There are other hints that Oliver is not team with Lag, like him pointing out to MM when Lag (now known to be fake-)claimed Medic. And then there is this, which I doubt Oliver as scum would put this trio into suspect list (1 scum in 3), then proceed to kill Loldebite and bring it to 1 in 2.


Guys
Are you blind
There is a scum in lag, gikkle, loldebite

There has to be one
No town cmen would ever fake claim voter
And there is 1 cmen less than needed
And 1 voter more than real
There is a scum cmen in the voters claim
No town cmen would claim voter



Next, I will post what if SB is scum and MM is not.

[Renegade]

for now

[Renegade]

If we suppose there is only 1 scum in MM+SB, then that would mean 2 scum in Gikkle+Lag+Oliver (or Paopan trolled us hard as a mastermind scum~Medic and as a genius expressed willingness to lynch either MM or SB). I don't think this is likely, but if I entertain the idea, then let's look at the possibilities.

First, assuming MM is scum.

MM+Gikkle+Oliver would mean 2 scum Congressmen, which I find unlikely. And oliver has been wary of Gikkle/3rd CMAN unless I got played in C-chat and they were teammates all along. Anyway, I doubt this is the case, but let me know what you think.

MM+Gikkle+Lag. Plausible, PR+CMAN+Voter. But do we believe MM+Lag were bussing each other this heavily D2? If so, then maybe they deserve the win. Do you think MM+Lag could have been bussing to this extent? (I don't)

MM+Lag+Oliver. Plausible PR+Voter+CMAN. This is one I need to check more into, as it is concerning that Oliver has not committed to being willing to lynch MM. But this would also mean that Oliver bussed Lag by keeping vote on her D2 and by voting her again D3 and responding to her comments negatively today. Why do this D3 if he could sit back and wait for people to vote PQR or SB. I will also remind that Oliver unvoted me when I reached L-1 (or was it L-2? I forget, but it's when I felt obligated to reveal as CMAN and did so) D2. There are other hints that Oliver is not team with Lag, like him pointing out to MM when Lag (now known to be fake-)claimed Medic. And then there is this, which I doubt Oliver as scum would put this trio into suspect list (1 scum in 3), then proceed to kill Loldebite and bring it to 1 in 2.





Next, I will post what if SB is scum and MM is not.

Yeah, I don't see MM+Lag together as scum.

Oliverz is really concerning me which his goofiness today. Voting Lag too.

Of the three unfortunately I would say Oliverz + Gikkle + MM makes the most sense, provided MM is scum.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I have no time rn, just checking to see where we're going and ?????????? WHY AM I THE LEADING TRAIN
Lag oliverz144 Gikkle you three are probably town; worst case scenario, one of you is scum. Please do not forget to place a vote on PQ. And if you are not already convinced that this is the way to go, just check EoDs, the votecounts, the circumstances around them and - Heaven forbid - my posts about PQ if you haven't read them for real yet. See the spam, see the lynch deflection (twice), see the disingenuous behavior....

Also, Renegade is only strenghtening my scumread on them by literally suggesting I'm scum with PQ. Like, you need to smoke some serious stuff to think that for real xD. I've been trying to lynch him since D1, and had many occasions to get him 100 % spared while remaining unsuspected. For example, I could easily have not posted a "PLOT TWIST" post about my read on Voss and kept scumreading him; if you check the votecount on D2, that would have turned the 50/50 into a 100 % Voss lynch. This is really as simple as it gets, and town!Renegade not seeing this makes no sense, considering he's not a noob or a really low-tier player.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I will try to be back before EoD if possible, but I cannot promise anything. Going off

[Renegade]

I have no time rn, just checking to see where we're going and ?????????? WHY AM I THE LEADING TRAIN
Lag oliverz144 Gikkle you three are probably town; worst case scenario, one of you is scum. Please do not forget to place a vote on PQ. And if you are not already convinced that this is the way to go, just check EoDs, the votecounts, the circumstances around them and - Heaven forbid - my posts about PQ if you haven't read them for real yet. See the spam, see the lynch deflection (twice), see the disingenuous behavior....

Also, Renegade is only strenghtening my scumread on them by literally suggesting I'm scum with PQ. Like, you need to smoke some serious stuff to think that for real xD. I've been trying to lynch him since D1, and had many occasions to get him 100 % spared while remaining unsuspected. For example, I could easily have not posted a "PLOT TWIST" post about my read on Voss and kept scumreading him; if you check the votecount on D2, that would have turned the 50/50 into a 100 % Voss lynch. This is really as simple as it gets, and town!Renegade not seeing this makes no sense, considering he's not a noob or a really low-tier player.

Please please please address the main topic at hand. Which is, assume I'm town, then don't you find it concerning that both YOU and SB are on PQ today?

That is where I'm coming from.

If you are town then FMPOV Stealth is scum, but you've been townreading them.

[Renegade]

You're riding this PQ hack scum train since day 1, but I've seen nothing but sincere game solving from him from D2 on.

[Renegade]

You're riding this PQ hack scum train since day 1, but I've seen nothing but sincere game solving from him from D2 on.

If I've been duped, then damn. But it doesn't make fucking sense for him to be scum.

[PQRnHack]

Second, assuming that SB16 is scum and MM is not.

SB+Lag+Oliver is not likely as it would mean Oliver is a genius bussing both SB and Lag with his votes on them today. And he could have taken the opportunity to sit back and put a vote on PQR or MM.
SB+Gikkle+Oliver is not likely for same reasons as in earlier post (2 CMEN scum, Oliver openly expressing concern about scum in Gikkle+Lag+Lolde).
SB+Gikkle+Lag. Plausible, PR+CMAN+Voter. I need to look into this one further. I do see that SB voted Lag at one point, will check how that looks for a possible bus.

[Renegade]

PQ spam ended day 1. I think.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Please please please address the main topic at hand. Which is, assume I'm town, then don't you find it concerning that both YOU and SB are on PQ today?

That is where I'm coming from.

If you are town then FMPOV Stealth is scum, but you've been townreading them.

NO, I do not find it concerning that someone I have been townreading since D1 sees what I am seeing about the bloody obvious scum lol. And your reasoning for this seems to be "they're PRs so one has to be scum", which is really just setup speculation and is unreliable, as was already said in the thread. The main topic at hand is that PQ is literally the scummiest person I've seen in a long time for reasons I've laid out countless times, not setup speculation-related cloudy hypotheticals.

AND NOW I'M OFF FOR REAL

[Marshmallow Marshall]

You're riding this PQ hack scum train since day 1, but I've seen nothing but sincere game solving from him from D2 on.

in the off-chance you're town, please check EoDs and just see how he escapes lynches magically and random townies who shouldn't have been lynched according to thread logic magically get lynched instead

[Renegade]

:sad:

[Lumi]

Renegade

I woke up expecting some sort of solve from you, but instead right now it looks more like you're polling the room to see if you can get a town to flip to wolf side and make the votes 4v4

Like I get how things are concerning... Assuming you're town. But there is little reason to make that assumption without a plausible alternative

[Renegade]

I think this has to be the lynch today. If Stealth happens to flip town, game can still go on.

Stealthbomber16

[Lumi]

Bruh. D1 d2 i was conftown lock to you
Bow im not
lag

Oliver please read the posts in full

I'm saying these teams are unlikely because I consider you obvtown

Like I think the wolves are Pao, PQ, and Ren because I think you are town.

[Renegade]

Renegade

I woke up expecting some sort of solve from you, but instead right now it looks more like you're polling the room to see if you can get a town to flip to wolf side and make the votes 4v4

Like I get how things are concerning... Assuming you're town. But there is little reason to make that assumption without a plausible alternative

This is the solve.

If stealth flips town, then it goes to 7 alive, 2-3 scum. Assuming a townie dies and I survive at night, then it goes tomorrow to 6 people, at least 2 of which are scum, and me plus two town is a majority of 4 votes. If stealth flips town MM has to be scum and we vote MM tomorrow.

[Renegade]

If MM is scum I'm 100% sure Oliverz is scum, he would be the next lynch.

[Renegade]

Day 3 lynch: Stealth, 7 players remaining
If Stealth is town
Townie dies at night, 6 players remaining
Left with Mayor + at least 2 town to vote MM.
Day 4 lynch: MM
If medic is dead, and they kill me at night, it could go to 2v2. Game over?

Fuck

[Renegade]

Day 3 lynch: MM, 7 players remaining
if MM is town,
townie dies at night, 6 players remaining, stealth removes my votes
Left with 6 players, 5 votes, scum wins if they have 3.

[PQRnHack]

Day 3 lynch: Stealth, 7 players remaining
If Stealth is town
Townie dies at night, 6 players remaining
Left with Mayor + at least 2 town to vote MM.
Day 4 lynch: MM
If medic is dead, and they kill me at night, it could go to 2v2. Game over?

Fuck

Unfortunately, it is worse than that, because you're assuming all 3 town vote in unison D4 and not a single townie mis-votes (although mafia killing you or Pao should at least convince Lag that her triple suspects are not correct; that is assuming Lag is even town but I still think she is, as opposed to Gikkle). We definitely need to lynch mafia today.

[Renegade]

oliverz144 Lag isn't getting lynched today, and you need to vote. MM or SB.

[Renegade]

Gikkle Lag please vote MM or SB.

[Renegade]

Or at least tell me who you would be willing to vote.

[Renegade]

Mechanically I think SB has to go.

[PQRnHack]

D3 Lynch MM, flips scum.
N3 kill Pao or Rene (assuming mafia wins the 50%)
D4 4 towns remaining with likely 3 votes (SB scum), 2 mafia remaining. Town is still OK but need to vote in unison and lynch a Mafia.

D3 lynch SB, flips scum.
N3 kill Pao or Rene (assuming mafia wins the 50%)
D4 4 towns remaining with 4-5 votes, 2 mafia remaining. Town can afford a mislynch.

Assume we lynch a mafia today (as the failure to do so is a terrible situation). Which lynch would be more informative (considering we still need to correctly identify 2nd and 3rd suspects)? Either one would clear Pao, PQ, and Rene (one of Pao/Rene will not be here D4, I am sure, and that will also become a 2nd clearing as they flip green) and at least allow remaining 2 townies (besides myself and the survivor in Pao/Rene) on D4 to correct their erroneous view (if applicable, such as if Lag is town) of the game as of D3 (those 2 remaining townies would be among survivor of SB/MM lynch + Gikkle + Lag + Oliver).

SB16 flipping red largely clears Oliver, while MM flipping red does not clear Oliver. From that POV, coupled with town's opportunity for a mislynch D4, seems like SB16 would be the better lynch unless we strongly believe MM is more likely scum than SB (better than a 50/50). I still think both of them are scum, so to me it is as good as 50/50 anyway, if not for additional benefits of one vs the other, like what I stated above.

Renegade is there any way that either Gikkle or Lag gets cleared by one or the other (MM,SB) flipping red? I think not, but may as well hear from you and others, in case I missed something.

[PQRnHack]

oliverz144 Lag isn't getting lynched today, and you need to vote. MM or SB.

oliverz144 I agree with this, there is no way Lag is a more likely suspect than SB, MM, and Gikkle, even despite her disastrous read that Rene+Pao+PQ are scum.

[Renegade]

Is Gikkle a viable lynch today? In that, leaving both the powers alive?

[NotPaopan]

:love: :love: :love:

[NotPaopan]

I honestly feel that MM and SB pushing PQ today clears him. But I think it will be difficult to get others to realize this since I have scum equity and Lag already thinks the team is me + PQ + Paopan.

Lag, Oliverz, Gikkle, and Paopan:

At least ONE of SB/MM is scum. Them both being on PQ is extremely concerning.

At least entertain the idea that I am town. In that scenario, what would the teams be in your mind?
Gikkle Lag NotPaopan Olivers144

As I have mentioned earlier.
Good thunder domes for today are mainly between SB/MM.
On the other hand, Gikkle/Lag works for everyone too.

To be honest I wanted to get rid of MM because he already pocketed Oliver/Gikkle. And him flipping scum would help us proceed.
Another much safer option that I'm okay with is a thunder dome between Gikkle and Lag.

[Renegade]

As I have mentioned earlier.
Good thunder domes for today are mainly between SB/MM.
On the other hand, Gikkle/Lag works for everyone too.

To be honest I wanted to get rid of MM because he already pocketed Oliver/Gikkle. And him flipping scum would help us proceed.
Another much safer option that I'm okay with is a thunder dome between Gikkle and Lag.

Would you consider voting SB?

[NotPaopan]

oliverz144 Gikkle NotPaopan I need a response to this.
I already told this before.
SB/MM/Gikkle/Lag/Oli/Ren (2-3 scums are in this pool)

Prio Level 1: SB/MM (1-2 scum)
Prio Level 2: Gikkle/Lag/Oli (1-2 scum)

[NotPaopan]

Would you consider voting SB?

Totally.
Stealthbomber16

[NotPaopan]

I am okay with either SB or MM lynch for today. Not PQ

[PQRnHack]

So assuming Gikkle is scum and mafia land a kill N3, we start D4 with 4 town and 2 Mafia. Town will still have at least 3 votes so we're good for a 3v2 (voting choice may be restricted depending on Pardon)
a) If D4 we lynch another mafia, then we're still good because after N4 kill, we start D5 with 3 town (at least 2 votes) and 1 mafia.
b) if D4 we mislynch a townie, then they kill N4, we arrive at D5 at a 2v2. The 2v2 is either lost by town when SB16 is scum (removes 1 of town's 2 votes) or it's a straight 2v2 (because mafia would have killed town~SB N4). Not a good situation, so I would say that if we lynch Gikkle D3 (and is scum) then we must also correctly lynch scum D4.

So what advantage is there to lynching Gikkle D3 as opposed to on a later day? It's like postponing the decision we eventually have to make (either now D3 or later D4 after lynching Gikkle) about MM/SB. By lynching Scum~Gikkle, would we learn anything new to help improve the voting decisions later on? I would not count on MM or SB to switch votes to Gikkle D3, so I dont think there will be information to be gained (not to mention that if there were to be any information, it could be just scum voting another scum Gikkle to deceive us). Maybe we could try to gain information from MM/SB (if one of them is even town) after they realize Gikkle was scum therefore PQ Pao Rene etc are not scum, but at that point it will turn into bussing (SvS) or realshow vs fakeshow (if TvS) shitshow. Would such D4 discussion improve our odds to make the right decision (compared to where we are today D3), i dont know?

Scum SB lynch D3 provides for more flexibility D4 and a D4 mislynch is survivable.

Scum MM lynch D3 is comparable to Scum Gikkle lynch (aside from Pardon use available to MM).

Town *whoever* lynch D3 is bad and almost game over.

[NotPaopan]

So assuming Gikkle is scum and mafia land a kill N3, we start D4 with 4 town and 2 Mafia. Town will still have at least 3 votes so we're good for a 3v2 (voting choice may be restricted depending on Pardon)
a) If D4 we lynch another mafia, then we're still good because after N4 kill, we start D5 with 3 town (at least 2 votes) and 1 mafia.
b) if D4 we mislynch a townie, then they kill N4, we arrive at D5 at a 2v2. The 2v2 is either lost by town when SB16 is scum (removes 1 of town's 2 votes) or it's a straight 2v2 (because mafia would have killed town~SB N4). Not a good situation, so I would say that if we lynch Gikkle D3 (and is scum) then we must also correctly lynch scum D4.

So what advantage is there to lynching Gikkle D3 as opposed to on a later day? It's like postponing the decision we eventually have to make (either now D3 or later D4 after lynching Gikkle) about MM/SB. By lynching Scum~Gikkle, would we learn anything new to help improve the voting decisions later on? I would not count on MM or SB to switch votes to Gikkle D3, so I dont think there will be information to be gained (not to mention that if there were to be any information, it could be just scum voting another scum Gikkle to deceive us). Maybe we could try to gain information from MM/SB (if one of them is even town) after they realize Gikkle was scum therefore PQ Pao Rene etc are not scum, but at that point it will turn into bussing (SvS) or realshow vs fakeshow (if TvS) shitshow. Would such D4 discussion improve our odds to make the right decision (compared to where we are today D3), i dont know?

Scum SB lynch D3 provides for more flexibility D4 and a D4 mislynch is survivable.

Scum MM lynch D3 is comparable to Scum Gikkle lynch (aside from Pardon use available to MM).

Town *whoever* lynch D3 is bad and almost game over.

If we are going to the Gikkle route, that's definitely more of letting all power roles alive.
Gikkle/Lag roles are useless whilst SB/MM slots are power slots

[NotPaopan]

If we are going to the Gikkle route, that's definitely more of letting all power roles alive.
Gikkle/Lag roles are useless whilst SB/MM slots are power slots

Oh and also, Gikkle flipping scum here would implicate MM is his scum partner. FMPOV

[NotPaopan]

Oh and also, Gikkle flipping scum here would implicate MM is his scum partner. FMPOV

Another thing is Lag flipping scum, then SB is scum too. Again, FMPOV

[PQRnHack]

Second, assuming that SB16 is scum and MM is not.

SB+Lag+Oliver is not likely as it would mean Oliver is a genius bussing both SB and Lag with his votes on them today. And he could have taken the opportunity to sit back and put a vote on PQR or MM.
SB+Gikkle+Oliver is not likely for same reasons as in earlier post (2 CMEN scum, Oliver openly expressing concern about scum in Gikkle+Lag+Lolde).
SB+Gikkle+Lag. Plausible, PR+CMAN+Voter. I need to look into this one further. I do see that SB voted Lag at one point, will check how that looks for a possible bus.

Revisiting SB+Gikkle+Lag scenario.
SB16 voted Lag here in #778 (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=951228#post951228) in response to Rene's vote on Lag when Lag was MIA for a while. Can definitely be within the framework of a [super weak] bus vote, so this composition is still viable.

[NotPaopan]

So assuming Gikkle is scum and mafia land a kill N3, we start D4 with 4 town and 2 Mafia. Town will still have at least 3 votes so we're good for a 3v2 (voting choice may be restricted depending on Pardon)
a) If D4 we lynch another mafia, then we're still good because after N4 kill, we start D5 with 3 town (at least 2 votes) and 1 mafia.
b) if D4 we mislynch a townie, then they kill N4, we arrive at D5 at a 2v2. The 2v2 is either lost by town when SB16 is scum (removes 1 of town's 2 votes) or it's a straight 2v2 (because mafia would have killed town~SB N4). Not a good situation, so I would say that if we lynch Gikkle D3 (and is scum) then we must also correctly lynch scum D4.

So what advantage is there to lynching Gikkle D3 as opposed to on a later day? It's like postponing the decision we eventually have to make (either now D3 or later D4 after lynching Gikkle) about MM/SB. By lynching Scum~Gikkle, would we learn anything new to help improve the voting decisions later on? I would not count on MM or SB to switch votes to Gikkle D3, so I dont think there will be information to be gained (not to mention that if there were to be any information, it could be just scum voting another scum Gikkle to deceive us). Maybe we could try to gain information from MM/SB (if one of them is even town) after they realize Gikkle was scum therefore PQ Pao Rene etc are not scum, but at that point it will turn into bussing (SvS) or realshow vs fakeshow (if TvS) shitshow. Would such D4 discussion improve our odds to make the right decision (compared to where we are today D3), i dont know?

Scum SB lynch D3 provides for more flexibility D4 and a D4 mislynch is survivable.

Scum MM lynch D3 is comparable to Scum Gikkle lynch (aside from Pardon use available to MM).

Town *whoever* lynch D3 is bad and almost game over.

Scum MM far outweighs Gikke cos of the oliver slot.

Yes, if we are going to avoid the power roles today, we are essentially postponing the decision today, but for tomorrow, the options are going to get thinner?I really don't want to count the chickens here yet. But let me know what do you think?

[NotPaopan]

Revisiting SB+Gikkle+Lag scenario.
SB16 voted Lag here in #778 (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=951228#post951228) in response to Rene's vote on Lag when Lag was MIA for a while. Can definitely be within the framework of a [super weak] bus vote, so this composition is still viable.

That's what I also think as shown in #1464
SB/MM + Gikkle/Lag + (3rd) Oliver/Ren

Becos of Ren's input. I'm beginning to think we should avoid the power roles for today. And then we can decide depending on their night action who to vote tomorrow. But fuck, this looks like I'm looking away at the prize.

[Renegade]

Scum MM far outweighs Gikke cos of the oliver slot.

Yes, if we are going to avoid the power roles today, we are essentially postponing the decision today, but for tomorrow, the options are going to get thinner?I really don't want to count the chickens here yet. But let me know what do you think?
PQRnHack if we delay the power vote, it may still keep me in the pool of Scum power from others POV. Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing.

I feel like scum power has to be dealt with today.

[Renegade]

That's what I also think as shown in #1464
SB/MM + Gikkle/Lag + (3rd) Oliver/Ren

Becos of Ren's input. I'm beginning to think we should avoid the power roles for today. And then we can decide depending on their night action who to vote tomorrow. But fuck, this looks like I'm looking away at the prize.

I townread Lag, so Gikkle is probably scum in my book. If MM flips scum, I'm fairly sure Oliverz is scum too.

[Stealthbomber16]

Or u r scum
U, gilkle, pqr thats 1 scum prob
Rene, mm, sb16, pao tahts 2 scum prob
Now thats many poss. We need a math equation
Thats what i wanted ur pssiblelynch list for
And it didnt cone lol
Instead u tr every1 that u r tslalking to rn
So to avaoid being voted
U even started saying that d1 was t/t and scum was offtrack
Then u started saying that mm+sb16 obv scum
Now u nreak ur conf town obw lock read, me
Die scum.

Well yeah if you name every single person and say there's scum in that group you tend to be correct.

[Stealthbomber16]

Rereading MM right now - does he have the more genuine read on PQ? By that, I mean, is stealth only taking advantage of the PQ train d2 and d3? MM has been on PQ since d1.

I... I STARTED the PQ train d2. Huh?

[NotPaopan]

PQRnHack if we delay the power vote, it may still keep me in the pool of Scum power from others POV. Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing.

I feel like scum power has to be dealt with today.
Unless we flip scum today that is...

But mmm. I'm done thinking for today, let's hammer SB.

[Stealthbomber16]

Welp.

Renegade

I guess this is it.

[Renegade]

Stealthbomber16

If you are town, please convince me MM is scum.

[Stealthbomber16]

Stealthbomber16

If you are town, please convince me MM is scum.

No dude.

You've tried lynching me and MM today. You tried switching the train onto Gikkle.

You are SCRAMBLING to get a mislynch off today, and frustratingly I think it's going to work.

[Renegade]

No dude.

You've tried lynching me and MM today. You tried switching the train onto Gikkle.

You are SCRAMBLING to get a mislynch off today, and frustratingly I think it's going to work.

I'm trying to solve the game.

[Renegade]

One of MM or SB has to go, possibly Gikkle if we are fairly sure they are scum. FMPOV anything else would be irresponsible.

At this stage I take full responsibility if we lose.

[Stealthbomber16]

Lag Gikkle oliverz144

Renegade is actively trying to lynch whoever the fuck he can in order to get his team to victory. He's placed votes on MM and me. He's stated he'd be ok with getting Gikkle out today as well.

Is that not the LEAST bit suspicious to you?

[oliverz144]

Skipping is not an option. Someone will die with a plurality even if it is a tie between people with a single vote.

yeah lol ik

[oliverz144]

Huh? How much sleep did you get? Town can only eliminate Mafia by lynching. By not voting you are only allowing Mafia to cast their votes and induce a lynch by plurality. There will not be a "no lynch" and voting for no-lynch is not allowed in this setup. Even 1 vote, if highest count, will trigger a lynch (and even if 0 votes, host probably just RNG all 8 players lol and lynch 1).

njaa im voting
i just dont want to mislynch

[oliverz144]

If we suppose there is only 1 scum in MM+SB, then that would mean 2 scum in Gikkle+Lag+Oliver (or Paopan trolled us hard as a mastermind scum~Medic and as a genius expressed willingness to lynch either MM or SB). I don't think this is likely, but if I entertain the idea, then let's look at the possibilities.

First, assuming MM is scum.

MM+Gikkle+Oliver would mean 2 scum Congressmen, which I find unlikely. And oliver has been wary of Gikkle/3rd CMAN unless I got played in C-chat and they were teammates all along. Anyway, I doubt this is the case, but let me know what you think.

MM+Gikkle+Lag. Plausible, PR+CMAN+Voter. But do we believe MM+Lag were bussing each other this heavily D2? If so, then maybe they deserve the win. Do you think MM+Lag could have been bussing to this extent? (I don't)

MM+Lag+Oliver. Plausible PR+Voter+CMAN. This is one I need to check more into, as it is concerning that Oliver has not committed to being willing to lynch MM. But this would also mean that Oliver bussed Lag by keeping vote on her D2 and by voting her again D3 and responding to her comments negatively today. Why do this D3 if he could sit back and wait for people to vote PQR or SB. I will also remind that Oliver unvoted me when I reached L-1 (or was it L-2? I forget, but it's when I felt obligated to reveal as CMAN and did so) D2. There are other hints that Oliver is not team with Lag, like him pointing out to MM when Lag (now known to be fake-)claimed Medic. And then there is this, which I doubt Oliver as scum would put this trio into suspect list (1 scum in 3), then proceed to kill Loldebite and bring it to 1 in 2.





Next, I will post what if SB is scum and MM is not.

can u read?
the post i stated had the line before: "e.g."
do u know what that means?
ITS AN EXAMPLE
STOP SPREADING THE LIES

[oliverz144]

lags scum
i see it
in the iso
in the jumping
lag

[oliverz144]

wait gikkle tarned up in chatzy as mm again
gikkle

[Renegade]

Lag Gikkle oliverz144

Renegade is actively trying to lynch whoever the fuck he can in order to get his team to victory. He's placed votes on MM and me. He's stated he'd be ok with getting Gikkle out today as well.

Is that not the LEAST bit suspicious to you?

Yeah, one of you is scum and I'm fairly certain Gikkle is scum too.

Why wouldn't I try to vote them at this stage in the game?

All I've seen as a reason for PQ lynch is that his d1 was spammy and he survived two trains.

[oliverz144]

Renegade

I woke up expecting some sort of solve from you, but instead right now it looks more like you're polling the room to see if you can get a town to flip to wolf side and make the votes 4v4

Like I get how things are concerning... Assuming you're town. But there is little reason to make that assumption without a plausible alternative

wdym anaylsis? we arent have a brain possess

[oliverz144]

Oliver please read the posts in full

I'm saying these teams are unlikely because I consider you obvtown

Like I think the wolves are Pao, PQ, and Ren because I think you are town.

yeah yeah
ok maybe the POSSIBILITY of me not being conf town obv lock is making u townie
im voting gikkle
and many will follow
u e.g.

[oliverz144]

If MM is scum I'm 100% sure Oliverz is scum, he would be the next lynch.

wowowow chill

[PQRnHack]

I... I STARTED the PQ train d2. Huh?

Not sure what this is supposed to say.

The first person to vote me D2 (as well as D1) was MM.

Here is MM voting me up D2.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=951040&viewfull=1#post951040
Here is you, SB, voting me D2, 3 hours after MM's vote
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49469-S-FM-336-(Ladder)-Politico-II?p=951102&viewfull=1#post951102

[NotPaopan]

ORDER! ORDER!

I do not like having all of you simultaneously testifying at the court!

[PQRnHack]

Lag Gikkle oliverz144

Renegade is actively trying to lynch whoever the fuck he can in order to get his team to victory. He's placed votes on MM and me. He's stated he'd be ok with getting Gikkle out today as well.

Is that not the LEAST bit suspicious to you?

Allow me to quote you :)

You are SCRAMBLING to get a mislynch off today

[PQRnHack]

wait gikkle tarned up in chatzy as mm again
gikkle

Can confirm, they're getting desperate LMAO. "Marshmallow Marshall" showed up again and says willing to give Oliver the benefit of the doubt regarding his view of PQ and asks Oliver to vote me again.

Make sure we don't screw up and split our town votes between 2 scum today, we need 4 town votes on one scum. And I am not counting on Lag to do so given her read of PQ+Pao+Rene, so it has to be Rene(x2)+Oliver+Pao voting in unison. Remember, I got my vote taken away by SB16 today.

[Stealthbomber16]

Allow me to quote you :)

You are SCRAMBLING to get a mislynch off today

There's a reason I didn't care to ping his scummate :)

[NotPaopan]

Can confirm, they're getting desperate LMAO. "Marshmallow Marshall" showed up again and says willing to give Oliver the benefit of the doubt regarding his view of PQ and asks Oliver to vote me again.

Make sure we don't screw up and split our town votes between 2 scum today, we need 4 town votes on one scum. And I am not counting on Lag to do so given her read of PQ+Pao+Rene, so it has to be Rene(x2)+Oliver+Pao voting in unison. Remember, I got my vote taken away by SB16 today.

Makes sense.
Gikkle

[oliverz144]

gikkle just started fuccing in chatzy as MM
even faked his red name tag
gikkle to be gone
idc bout powers
proletariat is better

[NotPaopan]

Can we win...

[oliverz144]

Can we win...

yes we can!
https://static.giga.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Bob-der-Baumeister-Alt1.jpg

[NotPaopan]

We need to unite our vote together Oliver Renegade @PQ

I am not very sure about MM/SB/Lag

[oliverz144]

gikkle
die

[PQRnHack]

I am not very sure about MM/SB/Lag

What do you mean by that? I did not understand.

[PQRnHack]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6p_F2rZTaQQ/YJ5ajTKRtOI/AAAAAAAACQA/hLdnTBJ4lNgQ9km6BFtPiPNcKttdPBzmwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/OverPage-0%2B136.png

[NotPaopan]

What do you mean by that? I did not understand.

I was pertaining to the slot's alignment.

[Renegade]

Fyi Popo, PQ has no vote today.

I'm fine with Gikkle I suppose, but would prefer one of the powers. Stealth will remove my votes tonight if he is scum. MM can only pardon a partner and would get lynched tomorrow if that is the case.

Maybe it isn't so bad if they live.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I am okay with either SB or MM lynch for today. Not PQ

WHY NotPaopan
What do you disagree with in my case against him? Same for you oliverz144 what makes you think PQ is not scum constantly getting saved by deflections onto Frinckles + Voss that happened thanks to disingenuous votes popping out of nowhere to lynch people who hadn't been significantly suspected?
Lag why is your vote not placed? Same to you Gikkle

[NotPaopan]

WHY NotPaopan
What do you disagree with in my case against him? Same for you oliverz144 what makes you think PQ is not scum constantly getting saved by deflections onto Frinckles + Voss that happened thanks to disingenuous votes popping out of nowhere to lynch people who hadn't been significantly suspected?
Lag why is your vote not placed? Same to you Gikkle

I felt the PQ train is too easy to push.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I felt the PQ train is too easy to push.

How? I have literally been pushing him since D1, and the sheer amount of resistance to his lynch directly led to Voss' lynch. He currently has ONE vote, mine. This is the opposite of being easy to push.

[Renegade]

How? I have literally been pushing him since D1, and the sheer amount of resistance to his lynch directly led to Voss' lynch. He currently has ONE vote, mine. This is the opposite of being easy to push.

The other two powers want him. If I am town (I know I am), then I know it is a mislynch since Voss flipped Green.

Him escaping two lynches does not a priori imply he is scum. And your other argument is his spam d1 which is also exceptionally lame!

[Renegade]

Right now I don't trust Oliverz so I'm a tad suspicious about his vote, but again if he is town we need it.

[Renegade]

MM if you are town, name the scum outside of PQ and try to convince me, because I'm not voting PQ and its clear he isn't getting lynched today.

[Gikkle]

Alright, alright. I'll stop being lazy... I have a bad habit of just letting other people do the work when there are more competent people than me in the game.

First thing I'd like to announce is that I AM NOT THE CONGRESSMAN. I am the medic. I was doing a reaction fish, as well as trying to remain hidden as the medic (Paopan refused to work with me I guess, acting as MM AGAIN? I wanted to believe Paopan had a chance of being town and that we could confuse the scum, but that did not work out). Specifically - I was seeing if anyone was aligned with Paopan, who I know to be the true congressman. I also know, based on the loldebite kill, scum were probably hunting for the real medic. I suppose I did a good enough job not seeming like the medic, so they offed him, presumably. Or they just killed him because he SRed PQR and was widely townread. That's possible too.

Things I noted were the following:

SB16 is HIGHLY unlikely to be aligned with Paopan. His reaction (#1459) is one I would expect of someone who wasn't teamed with Paopan; a simple, honest observation without obviously believing me too wholeheartedly, while also not needling the claim as if they know it's false. It's the type of reaction that doesn't really show an awareness it was a reaction fish, which scum aligned with paopan would know it was.

The two reactions I expected of scum aligned with Paopan are to ignore the reaction fish completely, or to engage it completely. I don't think they would want a middle ground approach simply because they KNOW it's a reaction fish, so they would want to either stay out of it or frame their response to look good - being in the middle ground doesn't achieve either. PQR's reaction, in particular, was needling, while also saying "yeah I definitely believe you". It seemed to me he was trying too hard to show he "genuinely believed me", by pressuring me, by asking questions, yet doing it beyond any inquisitive soul would - he asked questions that should have already been answered by my original claim post. Asking "why I did not stand up for myself (when everyone was saying 3rd Cman was scum)", despite the fact the obvious answer is that I was doing a reaction fish as Cman.

Lag's response was better, or at least more neutral. I could see either alignment of Lag doing it.

The point of this reaction fish was not to find scum directly though; my analysis on PQR's reaction could very well be wrong since scum knowing it would be a reaction fish means they would be able to act quite genuinely townie, so it would depend on the skill level of the scum. It was to see who WASN'T aligned with Paopan. I succeeded, though not to a degree I would have wished considering how many ignored my claim. I don't believe SB16/Paopan are scum together. Might seem small, but that's information!

Second point of this was just because I wanted to remain hidden, and I thought a possible T!Paopan would work with me. Clearly, he did not.

--

Analysis time.

Let's consider every possibility, then.

MM, Paopan, Lag, PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade, SB16

For the sake of analysis, I will be using every name here. No "I think MM/Oliverz is town so I am not including them"

Let's start with some not W/W associations.

Lag/Renegade not S/S.
SB16/PQRN not S/S.
MM/PQRN not S/S.
MM/Oliverz not S/S. Day 1 projection onto Oliverz make this nearly impossible in my eyes.
SB16/Renegade can't be a team in any 3 person scenario. Renegade is trying to turn the lynch onto SB16, so 2 person team between them is not possible either.

I'm also going to strike off some less likely pairings, that while not impossible, are a bit of a stretch.

PQRN/Lag (extremely blatant buddying yesterday and then Lag 180s and is now on board with killing PQRN on MYLO. If Lag is scum, this is more evident of pocketing PQR on Lag's part and then wanting to get that final mischop to win the game.)
Paopan/Lag (weird medic CC makes it unlikely since it didn't seem like a planned interaction)
Paopan/SB16 (1/3 of it the reaction fish I just did, 1/3 of it is how SB16 interacted with Paopan on page 26 which seemed like genuine a not-bus like attack on Paopan, and 1/3 of it is how Paopan is now trying to off SB16 right now.)
Lag/Oliverz (opening up the game with an aggressive attack on their buddy? Unlikely. Oliverz doesn't strike me as the type of player to bus that early (even if he did not intend to push it very far) without first consulting his buddies (which would be impossible since scum have no day chat), based on the one scum game I've seen from them. Lag's reaction confirms this since she doesn't entertain it, she immediately dismisses it, cutting the interaction and any town points they may have gained from it short. )

---

MM, Paopan, Lag, PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade, SB16

MM, Paopan, Renegade
MM, Lag, SB16
Paopan, PQRN, Renegade
Paopan, Oliverz, Renegade
PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade
PQRN, Oliverz, SB16

These are the possible teams, disregarding my reads on individual players. Hopefully I did not miss any.

If we consider individuals....

MM - Has been very consistent and logical about his reasons for suspecting PQR. His conviction seems genuine, as if he genuinely thinks PQR is scum. If PQR had been lynched and flipped town, the next day would likely have immediately flipped on to MM. MM's conviction seems legit; despite opposition, and the fact if PQR was town he could have gotten offed, he pushed hard, consistently, and with good, logical reasons. Attitude wise, MM's reactions to events have seemed genuine. Perhaps I'm terribly misreading this slot? But if he's scum this time, he's doing even better than his LAST scum game, in which he did not display nearly this level of conviction and aggression.

Paopan - Has consistently been unhelpful, but honestly I can't be sure if that's just paopan being scum or paopan being paopan.

Lag - Day 1 was meh, Day 2 was okay, Day 3 was better. Their analysis posts at the start of D3 seemed fine - Their push on MM day 2 was consistent with suspicion on them day 1. If PQR is town, this is scum just based on the 180 read from yesterday which indicates a hunt for mislynches. Their actual reasoning for the push on MM and SB16 d2 was weird and felt forced, and is probably the only reason a MM/SB16/Lag team isn't completely inconsiderable. A bus attempt on MM, with a 180 when it is MYLO is not completely un-imagineable.

PQRN - Very surface level analysis done by him. He keeps making big posts, but it always seems like he's trying to justify a pre-determined conclusion. I honestly thought he was townie day 1. His posts after that have been very meh though. I agree with some of MM's reasoning on him.

Oliverz - No hard reason to TR him. Mostly just attitude. Possible re-evaluation needed?

Renegade - Hasn't really been helpful all game and is only now, when PQR is under threat of lynch, trying to scramble. Strange.

SB16 - Thoughts have seemed genuine enough. Some of his indecision and confusion I've vibed with, particularly post #1274.

MM and SB16 are both independently townie players.

Paopan, PQRN, Renegade
Paopan, Oliverz, Renegade
PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade

That leaves the following teams.

[Stealthbomber16]

What the fuck did you just post

You wait until 50 minutes to post that? Fuck dude

[NotPaopan]

Alright, alright. I'll stop being lazy... I have a bad habit of just letting other people do the work when there are more competent people than me in the game.

First thing I'd like to announce is that I AM NOT THE CONGRESSMAN. I am the medic. I was doing a reaction fish, as well as trying to remain hidden as the medic (Paopan refused to work with me I guess, acting as MM AGAIN? I wanted to believe Paopan had a chance of being town and that we could confuse the scum, but that did not work out). Specifically - I was seeing if anyone was aligned with Paopan, who I know to be the true congressman. I also know, based on the loldebite kill, scum were probably hunting for the real medic. I suppose I did a good enough job not seeming like the medic, so they offed him, presumably. Or they just killed him because he SRed PQR and was widely townread. That's possible too.

Things I noted were the following:

SB16 is HIGHLY unlikely to be aligned with Paopan. His reaction (#1459) is one I would expect of someone who wasn't teamed with Paopan; a simple, honest observation without obviously believing me too wholeheartedly, while also not needling the claim as if they know it's false. It's the type of reaction that doesn't really show an awareness it was a reaction fish, which scum aligned with paopan would know it was.

The two reactions I expected of scum aligned with Paopan are to ignore the reaction fish completely, or to engage it completely. I don't think they would want a middle ground approach simply because they KNOW it's a reaction fish, so they would want to either stay out of it or frame their response to look good - being in the middle ground doesn't achieve either. PQR's reaction, in particular, was needling, while also saying "yeah I definitely believe you". It seemed to me he was trying too hard to show he "genuinely believed me", by pressuring me, by asking questions, yet doing it beyond any inquisitive soul would - he asked questions that should have already been answered by my original claim post. Asking "why I did not stand up for myself (when everyone was saying 3rd Cman was scum)", despite the fact the obvious answer is that I was doing a reaction fish as Cman.

Lag's response was better, or at least more neutral. I could see either alignment of Lag doing it.

The point of this reaction fish was not to find scum directly though; my analysis on PQR's reaction could very well be wrong since scum knowing it would be a reaction fish means they would be able to act quite genuinely townie, so it would depend on the skill level of the scum. It was to see who WASN'T aligned with Paopan. I succeeded, though not to a degree I would have wished considering how many ignored my claim. I don't believe SB16/Paopan are scum together. Might seem small, but that's information!

Second point of this was just because I wanted to remain hidden, and I thought a possible T!Paopan would work with me. Clearly, he did not.

--

Analysis time.

Let's consider every possibility, then.

MM, Paopan, Lag, PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade, SB16

For the sake of analysis, I will be using every name here. No "I think MM/Oliverz is town so I am not including them"

Let's start with some not W/W associations.

Lag/Renegade not S/S.
SB16/PQRN not S/S.
MM/PQRN not S/S.
MM/Oliverz not S/S. Day 1 projection onto Oliverz make this nearly impossible in my eyes.
SB16/Renegade can't be a team in any 3 person scenario. Renegade is trying to turn the lynch onto SB16, so 2 person team between them is not possible either.

I'm also going to strike off some less likely pairings, that while not impossible, are a bit of a stretch.

PQRN/Lag (extremely blatant buddying yesterday and then Lag 180s and is now on board with killing PQRN on MYLO. If Lag is scum, this is more evident of pocketing PQR on Lag's part and then wanting to get that final mischop to win the game.)
Paopan/Lag (weird medic CC makes it unlikely since it didn't seem like a planned interaction)
Paopan/SB16 (1/3 of it the reaction fish I just did, 1/3 of it is how SB16 interacted with Paopan on page 26 which seemed like genuine a not-bus like attack on Paopan, and 1/3 of it is how Paopan is now trying to off SB16 right now.)
Lag/Oliverz (opening up the game with an aggressive attack on their buddy? Unlikely. Oliverz doesn't strike me as the type of player to bus that early (even if he did not intend to push it very far) without first consulting his buddies (which would be impossible since scum have no day chat), based on the one scum game I've seen from them. Lag's reaction confirms this since she doesn't entertain it, she immediately dismisses it, cutting the interaction and any town points they may have gained from it short. )

---

MM, Paopan, Lag, PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade, SB16

MM, Paopan, Renegade
MM, Lag, SB16
Paopan, PQRN, Renegade
Paopan, Oliverz, Renegade
PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade
PQRN, Oliverz, SB16

These are the possible teams, disregarding my reads on individual players. Hopefully I did not miss any.

If we consider individuals....

MM - Has been very consistent and logical about his reasons for suspecting PQR. His conviction seems genuine, as if he genuinely thinks PQR is scum. If PQR had been lynched and flipped town, the next day would likely have immediately flipped on to MM. MM's conviction seems legit; despite opposition, and the fact if PQR was town he could have gotten offed, he pushed hard, consistently, and with good, logical reasons. Attitude wise, MM's reactions to events have seemed genuine. Perhaps I'm terribly misreading this slot? But if he's scum this time, he's doing even better than his LAST scum game, in which he did not display nearly this level of conviction and aggression.

Paopan - Has consistently been unhelpful, but honestly I can't be sure if that's just paopan being scum or paopan being paopan.

Lag - Day 1 was meh, Day 2 was okay, Day 3 was better. Their analysis posts at the start of D3 seemed fine - Their push on MM day 2 was consistent with suspicion on them day 1. If PQR is town, this is scum just based on the 180 read from yesterday which indicates a hunt for mislynches. Their actual reasoning for the push on MM and SB16 d2 was weird and felt forced, and is probably the only reason a MM/SB16/Lag team isn't completely inconsiderable. A bus attempt on MM, with a 180 when it is MYLO is not completely un-imagineable.

PQRN - Very surface level analysis done by him. He keeps making big posts, but it always seems like he's trying to justify a pre-determined conclusion. I honestly thought he was townie day 1. His posts after that have been very meh though. I agree with some of MM's reasoning on him.

Oliverz - No hard reason to TR him. Mostly just attitude. Possible re-evaluation needed?

Renegade - Hasn't really been helpful all game and is only now, when PQR is under threat of lynch, trying to scramble. Strange.

SB16 - Thoughts have seemed genuine enough. Some of his indecision and confusion I've vibed with, particularly post #1274.

MM and SB16 are both independently townie players.

Paopan, PQRN, Renegade
Paopan, Oliverz, Renegade
PQRN, Oliverz, Renegade

That leaves the following teams.

Okay. the scums are desperate. They outed themselves.

[Stealthbomber16]

What the fuck did you just post

You wait until 50 minutes to post that? Fuck dude

Never mind I love you.

I’m reinvigorated by the fact that I now have two independent players seeing the Ren/PQ/Pao world.

[Stealthbomber16]

WE’RE GONNA GET THERE BOYS

THEY’RE SCRAMBLING TO STOP US BUT WE ARE GONNA GET THERE

[Renegade]

Yeah Gikkles teams are a joke.

[Renegade]

Gikkle

[Marshmallow Marshall]

The other two powers want him. If I am town (I know I am), then I know it is a mislynch since Voss flipped Green.

Him escaping two lynches does not a priori imply he is scum. And your other argument is his spam d1 which is also exceptionally lame!

POWER ROLES =/= SCUM REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

And "the two powers want him" =/= "being easy to push".

Also, my argument beyond the VERY STRONG wagonomics one is not "D1 spam", it's much more: he kept posting in a way that forcibly pictured him as town, as if he wanted to emphasize his supposedly town perspective too much. He did the exact same thing when we were scum together. Then he just kept hammering on that all game. AND THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO D1. Look at people, including Voss, still calling him out on it on D2. There also is the fact he is visibly relying on townies misplaying (namely Paopan here, who is probably town for reasons I've already explained), which is just like we did when we were scum together, again. We considered town Paopan as a blessing for our scum team, and the same is happening AGAIN. Last but not least, the nightkills were all against people who had a brain and scumread PQ: Guillo the town leader N1, Loldebite the eternal PQ voter N2.

Also, seriously, thinking I am scum faking all of what I've been pushing, faking the solviness from D1 to D3, faking every bloody thing is ridiculous. I am aware I obviously am biased when it comes to that, but like, seriously guys.

[Gikkle]

oliverz144

Unvote.

[Lumi]

Gikkle

[The Godfather]

Gikkle has been hammered. Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Gikkle ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/45931') (5 [L-0]): Renegade (Mayor) ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952210'), NotPaopan ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952187'), oliverz144 ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952177'), Lag ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952213')
PQRnHack ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/12998') (1 [L-4]): Marshmallow Marshall ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=951895')
Renegade ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/30852') (1 [L-4]): Stealthbomber16 ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952167')

[The Godfather]

Gikkle has been hammered. Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Gikkle ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/45931') (5 [L-0]): Renegade (Mayor) ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952210'), NotPaopan ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952187'), oliverz144 ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952177'), Lag ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952213')
PQRnHack ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/12998') (1 [L-4]): Marshmallow Marshall ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=951895')
Renegade ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/30852') (1 [L-4]): Stealthbomber16 ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952167')

[Marshmallow Marshall]

MM if you are town, name the scum outside of PQ and try to convince me, because I'm not voting PQ and its clear he isn't getting lynched today.

Well... you xD. I'm honestly not even sure there are 3 scum, but if there are, the third one would be one of those playing dumb instead of being actually... misled.

For the record, I wasn't really trying to convince you directly because I think you're scum, but rather fighting the PQ defense that seems to still be a thing in people's minds.

[MartinGG99]

gikkle was good guy medic

with the night-kill being unpreventable

the scum-team of Lag + SB16 + NotPao

would've won a 3v2 vote-count as SB's judge would nuke Renegade

[Lumi]

Gg, sorry town, lol

[oliverz144]

Ill kill u lag

[oliverz144]

Not a joke

[Stealthbomber16]

What a fucking crazy game

[Gikkle]

Renegade why

[oliverz144]

Im going for you

[oliverz144]

You better start driving away fast

[Stealthbomber16]

PQRnHack

No hard feelings

[oliverz144]

Like u did last time

[MartinGG99]

Err 3v3 if I did my math wrong but with a discussion I had with one of the players it was decided that end-game ties (of 3 town vs 3 mafia) were to be avoided

and it probably would end in scum's favor considering they got 3 clean miseliminations

[Renegade]

So PQ was town. At least I got that right.


Also can we get a fix for this site that mods can't post after a day has been ended by a bot?

I take responsibility for the loss and I'm retiring for good from FM.

[Gikkle]

Well, even if I weren't hammered, I probably would have voted PQRN and we would have lost anyways. A scumteam of Lag/Paopan/SB16... I was completely off the mark with my reaction test analysis, as well as Lag's medic claim.

[Stealthbomber16]

Gikkle posts that SB + Pao isn’t a team and that Lag isn’t scum

Immediately loses to SB + Pao + Lag scum team

[Lumi]

I have to go drive now, but I just wanted to praise SB16's brilliant deep wolf play and Paopan worked as the perfect foil.

Paopan joining congress chat at end of day to post scummy stuff in order to frame Gikkle who hard claimed congressman and didn't have enough time to believably rescind was just brilliant

[Lumi]

Err 3v3 if I did my math wrong but with a discussion I had with one of the players it was decided that end-game ties (of 3 town vs 3 mafia) were to be avoided

and it probably would end in scum's favor considering they got 3 clean miseliminations

It becomes 3v3 but judge removes a vote so town has 2 votes to 3 wolf votes, no tie worries needed

[Stealthbomber16]

So PQ was town. At least I got that right.


Also can we get a fix for this site that mods can't post after a day has been ended by a bot?

I take responsibility for the loss and I'm retiring for good from FM.

Nahhh. You were actually on the right track. Not voting day 2 cost you.

Unironically you played very well this game. You just got unraveled by the most disjointed scum team in the known universe.

[Gikkle]

Gikkle posts that SB + Pao isn’t a team and that Lag isn’t scum

Immediately loses to SB + Pao + Lag scum team

No, I said Lag was scum if PQR was town.
I was wrong about the team analysis though, you are correct.

[Lumi]

You better start driving away fast

lmao

Wp Oliver

[Stealthbomber16]

Pao’s scum play gave me a fucking aneurysm. Holy fuck. I thought for sure we were gonna lose this on day 2.

[Gikkle]

Ah well. I didn't play very well this game. I was going to heal Guillo, but paranoia got the better of me and I healed PQRN instead.

[Renegade]

Err 3v3 if I did my math wrong but with a discussion I had with one of the players it was decided that end-game ties (of 3 town vs 3 mafia) were to be avoided

and it probably would end in scum's favor considering they got 3 clean miseliminations

If Gikkle flipped green and the game didn't end, I wanted to concede anyway.

[Stealthbomber16]

Pao’s scum play gave me a fucking aneurysm. Holy fuck. I thought for sure we were gonna lose this on day 2.

It miraculously was exactly what we needed today though. Framing gikkle was brilliant.

[NotPaopan]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[oliverz144]

Well, even if I weren't hammered, I probably would have voted PQRN and we would have lost anyways. A scumteam of Lag/Paopan/SB16... I was completely off the mark with my reaction test analysis, as well as Lag's medic claim.

Ur plays were completely anti town

[Gikkle]

Man, that's annoying. When I was doing back analysis on page 26, I noted that Lag swerved the wagon away from Paopan, but I completely forgot to dig into it any further.

[oliverz144]

lmao

Wp Oliver

No
I didnt wellplayed
I measured everyone by my own skill level
"Igh ogh ugh thats not in his scum range!!1!"
I just ran out and screamed, no joke. My neighbours think im crazy or smth

[Gikkle]

Ur plays were completely anti town

That's a bit rude. I mean, yeah, my reaction fish completely failed, but me fake claiming congressman shouldn't have mattered with analysis. There was no benefit for S!me to do any of what I did.

[oliverz144]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

He was scum 8 out of 9 games
Aarardqjwochj

[Lumi]

Ah well. I didn't play very well this game. I was going to heal Guillo, but paranoia got the better of me and I healed PQRN instead.

We actually wanted to pop the medic heal asap, get it out of the way so we can just kill off the conf town + medic

The later the game goes the more disastrous a medic heal is for wolves, so just biting the bullet early and giving town the extra mis-chop and then just clear out the conf town, that was considered a good outcome

The alternative is to rush 3 MLs and cross your fingers that you doc dodge twice and town doesn't gain momentum. Very high risk, high reward.

We ended up doing that, but it wasn't our original plan lol

[Lumi]

Also people sleeping on Paopans skill, not even knowing he won MVP in a game on the syndicate recently lmao

[Stealthbomber16]

That's a bit rude. I mean, yeah, my reaction fish completely failed, but me fake claiming congressman shouldn't have mattered with analysis. There was no benefit for S!me to do any of what I did.

Scum acting scummy is never beneficial for them, yet it happens anyway.

You unknowingly claimed responsibility for another person acting scummy, so you got all of the backlash for none of the benefits. Game is hard.

[oliverz144]

That's a bit rude. I mean, yeah, my reaction fish completely failed, but me fake claiming congressman shouldn't have mattered with analysis. There was no benefit for S!me to do any of what I did.

Yes im rude.
Sorry for that
Its just not ur highest level. The lag, gikkle,lolde POE completely failed by this

And i even kkinda noticed u being strange
When u "conceded" cman, u said "ari and stuff"
That was hanging in my brain. U were so vague with that.
I am hard, but i expected more from you
And please dont say anything about me
I was like a rock. With no whatever
I had it in my brain during 2 exams, but it never pinged me

[Gikkle]

Guillo kill was so obviously Lag and I managed to let myself be convinced otherwise.
Man I played terribly this game, geez

[oliverz144]

Also people sleeping on Paopans skill, not even knowing he won MVP in a game on the syndicate recently lmao

I propose a word ban of
Meta range
Scum range
Skill range

[Marshmallow Marshall]

.. lol

Lag

Okay, well played. VERY well played. You have just put your meta on a very difficult level :)
Paopan also lost his "dumb play free pass". Congrats Paopan lol

I do not owe any apologies to PQ. Spam doesn't taste good. Perhaps I do owe some to Renegade, though: you were at least less wrong than I was, and were not scum after all (although not much indicated that).

Also, close second MVP for Stealth for pocketing me and probably pocketing Gikkle too.

And an honorable mention to Guillo for being obvtown and managing to get killed N1 on his first game on-site xD.


:calix: PJSaltPJSaltPJSaltPJSaltPJSalt :calix:

[Lumi]

Guillo kill was so obviously Lag and I managed to let myself be convinced otherwise.
Man I played terribly this game, geez

I was constantly worrying about you just deciding to death tunnel me this game, lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Oh also, I wish to claim my honorary scum badge...

[Gikkle]

.. lol

Lag

Okay, well played. VERY well played. You have just put your meta on a very difficult level :)
Paopan also lost his "dumb play free pass". Congrats Paopan lol

I do not owe any apologies to PQ. Spam doesn't taste good. Perhaps I do owe some to Renegade, though: you were at least less wrong than I was, and were not scum after all (although not much indicated that).

Also, close second MVP for Stealth for pocketing me and probably pocketing Gikkle too.

And an honorable mention to Guillo for being obvtown and managing to get killed N1 on his first game on-site xD.


:calix: PJSaltPJSaltPJSaltPJSaltPJSalt :calix:

Stealth was a last second thing. I didn't TR him until the very end. Legit mainly only TRed him because I SRed Paopan.

Lag

Yeah. I feel like this is deserved by Lag.

[MartinGG99]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816090026203021312/918928341225066496/unknown.png


this was the rand btw, 1-12 respective to the player list so

MM - Governor
NotPaopan - Congressman (Evil)
Lag - Voter (Evil)
Gikkle - Medic
Loldebite - Voter
PQRnHack - Congressman
Oliverz144 - Congressman
Frinckles - Voter
Voss - States Attorney
Guillo - Voter
Renegade - Mayor
Stealthbomber16 - Judge (Evil)

[Lumi]

Sb16 deserves a ton of credit for threading the needle on day 2 in using his town cred to keep both me and Pao alive without making it look like he was keeping both me and Pao alive

stealthbomber16

[Lumi]

MartinGG99

Update votes to hammer number please

[PQRnHack]

This was really bad. Renegade played well to avoid the "obvious PQ lynch" D3, don't quit FM.
With Gikkle acting so scummy as supposed CMAN#3 that we suspected all along led us to believe NotPaopan (Medic by PoE after learning of Gikkle's true role being CMAN - supposedly - instead of voter) was legit town Medic. You don't sit until 30 mins before EOD (more like EOG - end of game) toying with town, leading us to spend hours on analysis that's flawed by a town faking roleclaims twice, failing to point out that real CMAN never properly claimed and the Pao fake-medic claim is likely scum (unless you believe that you and Pao were both town and making brilliant gambits by faking each others' roles to save real Medic). It is OK to protect Medic by faking early on, but not on D3 when we need to lynch a mafia
Vote Gikkle for MVP (no hard feelings tho :))

I want to know how MM feels about being wrong for so long. Turns out I was right, his persistence on me was indeed too consistent to be a wolf. But it just seems like he never managed to seriously consider other universes, despite what Rene was asking him to do.

[edit, i mixed up medic and CMAN in my post]

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Also people sleeping on Paopans skill, not even knowing he won MVP in a game on the syndicate recently lmao

Yeah he literally got a "free pass for dummies", and it's the last time he gets one xD. This win is thoroughly deserved by all members of the scum team.

[Gikkle]

I was constantly worrying about you just deciding to death tunnel me this game, lol

I mean, I probably would have. I had you pinged for Guillo's kill, and the fact I knew you knew Paopan wasn't medic. You/Paopan was my earliest pairing and I only ditched it because SB convinced me I was wrong about the Guillo thing, and then I lost confidence in all of my reads altogether.

[Stealthbomber16]

Every single person we lynched or killed townread me so I was put in danger just based on the fact that everyone who thought I was town was dead LOL

[Gikkle]

This was really bad. Renegade played well to avoid the "obvious PQ lynch" D3, don't quit FM.
With Gikkle acting so scummy as supposed CMAN#3 that we suspected all along led us to believe NotPaopan (Medic by PoE after learning of Gikkle's true role being CMAN - supposedly - instead of voter) was legit town Medic. You don't sit until 30 mins before EOD (more like EOG - end of game) toying with town, leading us to spend hours on analysis that's flawed by a town faking roleclaims twice, failing to point out that real Medic never properly claimed and is likely scum (unless you believe that you and Pao were both town and making brilliant gambits by faking each others' roles and you were protecting him by doing so). The latter is OK to protect medic N2, but when we must lynch a Mafia D3 to avoid losing, it's just too much to wait for EOD-30min.

Vote Gikkle for MVP (no hard feelings tho :))

I want to know how MM feels about being wrong for so long. Turns out I was right, his persistence on me was indeed too consistent to be a wolf. But it just seems like he never managed to seriously consider other universes, despite what Rene was asking him to do.

Fair. I honestly thought I would get more out of that reaction fish than I did.