S-FM 160: Prime Minister

[S-FM The War Doctor]

something doesnt feel right....

Why do we need a corner if scums have no reols they mess up graveyard....

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

something doesnt feel right....

Why do we need a corner if scums have no reols they mess up graveyard....

I kan read the setup. Can you? Show me you're not an empty slot.

[S-FM Grubby]

2 chauffeurs + deception?

What about that rb claim? It's BS but still.

I could see there being a consort who was sent for the factional kill some days. Consort would be relatively useless at this point with so many TPR dead.

[S-FM Grubby]

something doesnt feel right....

Why do we need a corner if scums have no reols they mess up graveyard....

I could totally be wrong with 4 as the coroner and some actress running around.

Who do you think should get more attention right now that is slipping through the cracks?

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

I could totally be wrong with 4 as the coroner and some actress running around.

Who do you think should get more attention right now that is slipping through the cracks?

That requires there to be a BD still alive and 11 to be Town.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

wrong quote...

11 could be actress, I'll throw up the 9-11 exchanges

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Uh, guys, the day will end up in 6 hours. Make up your mind! I'll vote on Eleventh so that Tenth can cloose up the day with his deciding vote.

S-FM The Eleventh Doctor

[S-FM Grubby]

Uh, guys, the day will end up in 6 hours. Make up your mind! I'll vote on Eleventh so that Tenth can cloose up the day with his deciding vote.

S-FM The Eleventh Doctor

Who did you vote as the PM on D1?

[S-FM The War Doctor]

S-FM The Fourth Doctor

Let the tenth chose for us!

Personally at this rate i would just want purge half of this place and be done with it. I think its consort overall and if its actress its 7 whos gonna flip cit

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Who did you vote as the PM on D1?

I voted you on D1 and you on D2. What else do we need to know?

[S-FM Buzzy]

I could see there being a consort who was sent for the factional kill some days. Consort would be relatively useless at this point with so many TPR dead.

Just to write this down rather than have all the obscure hinting, I'm gonna write down this important logic chain: if 4 really is coroner, that means there 99% is a tailor/actress/janitor (let's be honest SuperJack probably won't troll with a graveyard deceptionless save like that).

This deception hasn't done much as of yet, unless they've been throwing away night visits pointlessly. This in turn means they will probably be responsible for the night kill on most days (and maybe even every day if the other maf is an investigative).

Of course, this ruins the theory of there being a consort who is alternating between night killing and not night killing, if the deception is doing all the kills insead. And, in turn, why would a hypothetical rber (if they get the chance every night) NOT rb some nights? So he can't be an escort either.

There is a chance that the hypothetical rber is rbing every night but someone simply isn't confessing to being rbed, but I can't think of any motivation someone would have for refusing to reveal they were rbed. If a maf does it to try and screw with town, the escort can simply reveal and be like "this fuck is trolling us! Get him!"

In conclusion, if we believe 4 to be coroner, the rber cannot logically exist, unless some dodgy shit is going on and people are playing in ultra-weird ways.

Of course, 4 is likely aware of this, but doesn't want to say it so he can save it for his L bullshit. In fact, as you'd guess, there's a lot of stuff he's saving for his L bullshit. This is why I feel he really is town, but he just has a crazy playstyle. Unless he's a brilliant mafia, I find it difficult to believe (if he's mafia) he got into his role as coroner so well he figured out that this had to be the case through deduction and then hid it because he knew that was what the real coroner 4 would do, as well as doing other stuff with a long term goal to interrogate / induce slips.

Hate to defend him on the even day. I guess this is the filler part of the lynch 4 trilogy. Hopefully I'll pick things up on d6. Btw 4:



I was curious to see 12 and 5's reaction to me not claiming 8 was tailored. Either they really believe I'm scum or are scum with privileged information knowing, expecting, and planning on me to claim 8 was tailored.


I don't think you're gonna reel in any more bait with this. But it was nice to know that 5 is probably innocent. Unless we're not on the same thought-wave and I've completely misread the situation xD

Anyway, because I believe 4 is innocent, and 11 cannot have been logically roleblocked if 4 is truly coroner, I advocate for a lynch of 11 for today.

[S-FM Grubby]

I voted you on D1 and you on D2. What else do we need to know?

I have a question Doc 3 still. And I wish pretty much every player was playing harder today but I guess its not exactly a "High pressure" kind of day.

How do you read Doc 4's fixation on the feedback being faked? How do you read him?

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

while i would like to policy lynch #4, i don't think he is scum. i would rather go for someone like #7 or #5

[S-FM Grubby]

while i would like to policy lynch #4, i don't think he is scum. i would rather go for someone like #7 or #5

How sure of this are you though? I have trouble believing that any player could get stuck on this "BD feedback is faked" subject as hard as he has. Even when railing on the logic against it he still stays fixated on the issue so hard he won't consider anything else.

[S-FM Buzzy]

How sure of this are you though? I have trouble believing that any player could get stuck on this "BD feedback is faked" subject as hard as he has. Even when railing on the logic against it he still stays fixated on the issue so hard he won't consider anything else.

It's his personality. He's demonstrated that throughout the entire game. That or he's a very good actor.

[S-FM Grubby]

Out of 7 and 11 who would you favor a lynch on more?

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

D2:


I just think its unlikely that the mafia would directly attack the prime minister when there is a high possibility of a lookout or a doctor.

Demonstrates actual insight.


What makes you so certain that the mafia wouldn't attack me?

The only way you could know for sure is if you participated in their chat.

Then blows that insight away as his D1 was meek.


I was also roleblocked, but I was waiting to see if someone to claim they had additional feedback.
So if me and Doctor 9 were bussed. They intended to block him.

Except...
Looking at the setup it is oddly worded in this:
3. Bus Driver>Chauffeur>Beguiler
4. Roleblocks (Can Roleblock Redirects Directly)

So I was intended target for roleblock?

Host:
If X and Y are bussed, and X was targeted by roleblock, would they be roleblocked? or Y?

Wants to correctly understand OoO publicly. I realized D3 this may be a setup so he may claim RBer or Bus, using his scum mates as proof of roles.


THEY intended to roleblock me? Please explain yourself

9th starts light bussing 11.


No one thinks it's scummy that the eleventh doctor claims that a consort tried to roleblock me?

s-fm the eleventh doctor


More bussing but true point. Why would 9 be anyone's target? Especially 11's if they both agreed D1?


Im willing to vote #4 too but i can't ignore the slip that #11 made.

He claims that ''They'' tried to roleblock me. Meaning that it has to be mafia.


How could he possibly know that the roleblocker is mafia unless he is mafia himself?

Hammering the light bus.


Okay I am back for a bit.

To answer some questions: I was using gender neutral identifier when I said "they". I do tend to think it was a consort though over a escort, but I am not ready to rule out a escort was the one who intended to block 9. 9 is pretty good townread for me atm, so theres that.

Now I would like to ask some questions:
@#3 Why are you so convinced #4 is scum based on the graveyard speculation?
Why are you reading #9 as scum? That is one of my strongest town reads.

@#2 Love the catch up!
Are you considering activity alignment indicators? I ask this cause you mention number of posts in each analysis of players.

Also I notice you don't call anyone really town or scum in posts, you mention #4 as only town read and even him you have high suspicions on. Seems odd.

11 claims 9 is his strongest Town read.


s-fm the fourth doctor

I guess i can accept that defence from #11

9 backs off 11. Bear in mind that 11 train was going no-where, other than to split votes and move aggro off of 9.


S-fm the seventh doctor

Almost immediately switches to 7 seeing I'm not an easy lynch.


Im actually fine with not lynching anyone today. i will unvote so we dont get a early hammer

Then backtracks. Despite lynch being Town's strongest tool. After 3, 9 and 7 are the top lynch candidates.


Too few posts to get a opinion.

Reasoning.


Hard to say. He could be a scum trying hard to appear useful, considering that the conclusion of his analysis was to put a vote on me.

His thoughts on 2, who died that night…


Well, i know that im innocent. He mentions far more scummy people in his reads, but he still decides to vote on me becouse he wants me to give him information.

9 still refuses to give that information after my D3 pressure.


Why would you reveal you are coroner now?
Your chances of getting attacked just went up.

Unless BD saves you.

Brings back that hope of BD


I feel like the meta of our site is switching to players making town power claims as scum in order to escape lynches. So I am feeling that 4 and 7 are likely scum if not both.

4s claim seems most suspicious if you just look at timing and relevance to everything else.

Vague read suspicion on me. Notice how 8 doesn't defend me.


I really don't like either of the two 'wagons' if you can call them that. Vote on nine is pretty bad. And votes on three are equally as bad.

I think its between 4 and 7 at this point. I really don't trust either of the claims.

Takes off agro from 9 and 3. This is what I based the link on. I think he was just defending 9.


Right now 4s motivation seems more on survival than actual scumhunting from what I am seeing.

Moving suspicion to non-teammates.


@2 I am not using meta at all. I am looking at motivation for actions. 4s actions today seem self preservation. His counter arguments aren't convincing me otherwise.

I had already explained the necessity for my early reveal. Since I'm coroner (probably the only one) I'm a vital role to be protected.


Best not to reveal who you voted for.
We don't need to give mafia anymore information than they have, which right now could be a lot to not much depending on how accurate the claims are so far.

I am fairly confidant we have at leas 1 Bus Driver, I don't know if 4s feedback is accurate though I can see reasons to fake it. We have potentially a Escort/Consort though leaning for Consort, and possibly Tailor which I kinda doubt if 4 is lying about his role.

Introduces the concept of faking feedback, which made me suspect what he was doing. Setting the scene for liars and fake claimers.


You are derailing a train atm for a train on a player that is quite possibly one of the worst choices to lynch in this game at this time.

Defends 3, wants to push me or 7 instead.


So you assume I am going to go along with this?

Basically says no.


Why isn't this person our PM?

Buddies 12.

Is buddied with 9,3,12,10


.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Day 3:


So I have no feedback from last night.

Starts out with something true that he soon goes back on.


You claiming Body Double?

FOS's 8 light


We know there is potentially 1-2 drivers in the game.
Since we had 3 claims of driver.

I want to ask now, was anyone bussed last night?

Continues to set the scene for a liar on feedback, despite later lying himself.


Alright mr passive aggressive.

Backs off of 8, satisfied.


We already know you are some kind of power role.
That isn't in question anymore.

Lookout returned positive results on you.
And their is no Drug Dealer so it isn't fake.

Clarifies 8 is a PR


It is also possible someone was lying about being bussed yesterday.

If that was the case I would highly think it was 4 who lied about that.

Wants to mislynch a 'liar'. Mafia basically wins if I'm eliminated.


Waiting on the "Coroner" results.
And to see who the "Body Double" guarded.

If you can't tell, I don't trust either of those two. Unsure of 8 as well now.

I wonder if it as simple as those three?

Continues his TPR hunt onto 7. Possibly to verify what the actress should claim in last will.

This is why I suggested 7 claim bussed.


I don't trust the 4 doctor.

Sets subliminal thoughts after setting the scene.


I actually wasn't expecting this from you.
Huh

Buddies me


Well i got no feedback last night.

Claims no feedback, and doesn't deny being Mafia under pressure test.


Why exacly are you trying to prevent 8s lynch?

Recognizes an opportunity to frame me


You caught me. GG!

Admits it.


S-fm the eight doctor

I'll just leave my vote here for now.

Pushes a bus vote without reason other than to frame me.


I was bussed.

Wanted to see how many claims we had on that.

Reveals he lied. 3,7,11 claimed. I doubt 7 was bussed, but more importantly I believe 11 lied to create scenario of 2 bus drivers.


Can I buy pot from your dealer?

Discounts my theory.


Unless someone didn't answer you "Vote Count Analysis" you analyze votes on people to get reads on motivation and alignments of it.

It is useless however if no lynch occurs.
Or at least mostly useless.

Suggests VCA explaining the bussed teammate votes.


If you want to lynch me instead of the obvious scum then go ahead.

Why did 8 wait so long befeore claiming a role?

Bus


Why the hell would there be a coroner in this game with zero mafia roles that cleans or changes anyones role.

Discredits coroner in an odd way suggesting his team doesnt have deception roles.


If i get lynched then i guess tomorrow is the part where #4 ''retires'' from leading the town.

I'm convinced 9 is actress at this point.


They should see #8 as an obvious scum. I don't know how anyone is taking #4 seriously at this point.

But to answer your question. No, they have no reason to see me as innocent but they should have enough reasons to see #8 as a scum and #4 as his obvious scum buddy.

Does no one think it's suspicious that #4 and #8 are acting like best friends?

Admits he's playing like scum…


Maybe i want the mafia to think that they can misslynch me? It does keep me safe at night.

Reasononing he's playing like scum. Pretends to be a PR role.


You are a fucking coroner in a janitorless, tailorless, actressless setup. what sercret information could you possibly have?

Confesses the mafia team again.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

How sure of this are you though? I have trouble believing that any player could get stuck on this "BD feedback is faked" subject as hard as he has. Even when railing on the logic against it he still stays fixated on the issue so hard he won't consider anything else.

He is probably town but his existance is harming us, so i would be fine with lynching him.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Out of 7 and 11 who would you favor a lynch on more?

Directed at me, someone else, or generally? I'll answer it anyway.

7's avoiding answering so many questions like a bitch. Then he claims this citizen claim that is, once again, completely counter-intuitive to everything he has said previously. He's so vain and bad at bullshitting it hurts my soul.

However, the niggling memory of 8's procedural deconstruction of him and rigorous attempt to get him lynched really makes me stop and wonder. Okay, sure it might have been a bussing. But I'm not even sure such a bussing would be worth it. He did cut the day short, after all, just so he could have his little spat. I really felt like 8 was betting on me hammering, and then explaining in the morning that he really felt that what he did was the right thing for the town, and at least now they could analyze the resulting lynches.

Remember the switch 8 did once he was in the red? I strongly believe he would've wacked that out after he'd fucked 7 hard. So, I'd prefer 11. And, if 7 isn't a better interviewee, we can policy lynch him in a following day if we have such a liberty.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Directed at me, someone else, or generally? I'll answer it anyway.

7's avoiding answering so many questions like a bitch. Then he claims this citizen claim that is, once again, completely counter-intuitive to everything he has said previously. He's so vain and bad at bullshitting it hurts my soul.

However, the niggling memory of 8's procedural deconstruction of him and rigorous attempt to get him lynched really makes me stop and wonder. Okay, sure it might have been a bussing. But I'm not even sure such a bussing would be worth it. He did cut the day short, after all, just so he could have his little spat. I really felt like 8 was betting on me hammering, and then explaining in the morning that he really felt that what he did was the right thing for the town, and at least now they could analyze the resulting lynches.

Remember the switch 8 did once he was in the red? I strongly believe he would've wacked that out after he'd fucked 7 hard. So, I'd prefer 11. And, if 7 isn't a better interviewee, we can policy lynch him in a following day if we have such a liberty.

"the switch 8 did" = the switch from scummyness to towniness.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

Basically, where have all the busses gone? 11 setup the faked bus feedback for the purpose of framing. And guess what? Here we are with this exact situation.

He set the stage for vote count analysis. Guess what, he bus voted his teammate.

11 calculated buddying, set subliminal messages, discredits coroner.

This is my basis for forming my thoughts.

His hunting on 7's role D3 is what really caught my attention.

I'm wondering why actress wouldnt disguise as the person their team is killing though. Seems easier.

[S-FM Buzzy]

That is one TERRIBLE iso 4. That's way below your capabilities. Lazy, even. Come on man, you're not making my life easy xD

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

Just to write this down rather than have all the obscure hinting, I'm gonna write down this important logic chain: if 4 really is coroner, that means there 99% is a tailor/actress/janitor (let's be honest SuperJack probably won't troll with a graveyard deceptionless save like that).

This deception hasn't done much as of yet, unless they've been throwing away night visits pointlessly. This in turn means they will probably be responsible for the night kill on most days (and maybe even every day if the other maf is an investigative).

Of course, this ruins the theory of there being a consort who is alternating between night killing and not night killing, if the deception is doing all the kills insead. And, in turn, why would a hypothetical rber (if they get the chance every night) NOT rb some nights? So he can't be an escort either.

There is a chance that the hypothetical rber is rbing every night but someone simply isn't confessing to being rbed, but I can't think of any motivation someone would have for refusing to reveal they were rbed. If a maf does it to try and screw with town, the escort can simply reveal and be like "this fuck is trolling us! Get him!"

In conclusion, if we believe 4 to be coroner, the rber cannot logically exist, unless some dodgy shit is going on and people are playing in ultra-weird ways.

Of course, 4 is likely aware of this, but doesn't want to say it so he can save it for his L bullshit. In fact, as you'd guess, there's a lot of stuff he's saving for his L bullshit. This is why I feel he really is town, but he just has a crazy playstyle. Unless he's a brilliant mafia, I find it difficult to believe (if he's mafia) he got into his role as coroner so well he figured out that this had to be the case through deduction and then hid it because he knew that was what the real coroner 4 would do, as well as doing other stuff with a long term goal to interrogate / induce slips.

Hate to defend him on the even day. I guess this is the filler part of the lynch 4 trilogy. Hopefully I'll pick things up on d6. Btw 4:



I don't think you're gonna reel in any more bait with this. But it was nice to know that 5 is probably innocent. Unless we're not on the same thought-wave and I've completely misread the situation xD

Anyway, because I believe 4 is innocent, and 11 cannot have been logically roleblocked if 4 is truly coroner, I advocate for a lynch of 11 for today.

You get it!!!

11's lynch will clarify A LOT!!

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

#11 might be scum but i know that my bus feedback is real.

[S-FM Buzzy]

#11 might be scum but i know that my bus feedback is real.

8 probably blagged about switching 4 and 6 to stroke 4's ego. He probably actually switched you and 4.

[S-FM Buzzy]

8 probably blagged about switching 4 and 6 to stroke 4's ego. He probably actually switched you and 4.

Oops cancel that, that makes no fucking sense. I retract that xD

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

8 probably blagged about switching 4 and 6 to stroke 4's ego. He probably actually switched you and 4.

well, the lookout confirms that 8 visited 6. There has to be another player that can swap people.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

That is one TERRIBLE iso 4. That's way below your capabilities. Lazy, even. Come on man, you're not making my life easy xD

Yeah I know, honestly I'm a little burnt out. But at least all the quotes are up for people to peruse.

I already made general reads and higher level theories.

The cumulative knowledge is released which, is more important.

[S-FM Buzzy]

well, the lookout confirms that 8 visited 6. There has to be another player that can swap people.

Yup, realized the stupidity of what I said a shameful 5 seconds later XD


Yeah I know, honestly I'm a little burnt out. But at least all the quotes are up for people to peruse.

I already made general reads and higher level theories.

The cumulative knowledge is released which, is more important.

Eh, it may push people in our direction. But we could still be completely fucking wrong xD. I mean, what if you really are coroner in a graveyard deceptionless save? What if Superjack is making a point about the assumptions we effortlessly make and punishing us for it? Cunt. XD

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

If I ISOed someone like 5 it's easy to see him in a scum light. Judging his play, I refuse to ISO and blanket him as inexperienced.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Yeah I know, honestly I'm a little burnt out. But at least all the quotes are up for people to peruse.

I already made general reads and higher level theories.

The cumulative knowledge is released which, is more important.

Anyway, you conveniently missed out the post where 11 claims to have tried to WIFOM save you at the start of d2, which is a crucial part of probably one of the more powerful arguments for him being a goodie - an argument that suggests that he has in fact been WIFOM saving you for most of this game by discrediting you on bullshit ground. You could easily build a counter-theory that suggests 11 is deliberately gravitating towards people who said a lot of bullshit on d2 (me, 9, exc.) and slacking off people who actually might have been good / important (you, 7 when we still thought he was Body Double, exc.) to try and pull nightkills away from the good contributors.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

#11 might be scum but i know that my bus feedback is real.

Impossible...

WE HAVE NO BD. Only chauffeur.

0_o

[S-FM Buzzy]

If I ISOed someone like 5 it's easy to see him in a scum light. Judging his play, I refuse to ISO and blanket him as inexperienced.

Eh, there's an important line to be drawn between slips and actual scum plays. The best example of this is when 9 says "bussed" at the start of d2 - that's clearly a slip, but also clearly nothing worthy of taking seriously. I'd apply that to 5. It's a bit annoying with anonymous games tho, because I'm always paranoid "noob"s are just good actors.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

Anyway, you conveniently missed out the post where 11 claims to have tried to WIFOM save you at the start of d2, which is a crucial part of probably one of the more powerful arguments for him being a goodie - an argument that suggests that he has in fact been WIFOM saving you for most of this game by discrediting you on bullshit ground. You could easily build a counter-theory that suggests 11 is deliberately gravitating towards people who said a lot of bullshit on d2 (me, 9, exc.) and slacking off people who actually might have been good / important (you, 7 when we still thought he was Body Double, exc.) to try and pull nightkills away from the good contributors.

Yeah I saw that, I didn't know what to make of it and wanted to make a separate speculative post about it. But I have some limitations that made me exceptionally lazy to follow through.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Yeah I saw that, I didn't know what to make of it and wanted to make a separate speculative post about it. But I have some limitations that made me exceptionally lazy to follow through.

Indeed, it's not very difficult to do shit like that as an evil to seem innocent, but it's worth noting. Honestly, 11 has a good townish aura and the only reason we really have to fault him is the dodgy feedback claims. But those dodgy feedback claims are still enough to bring him to the chopping block, considering a "good townish aura" is nothing more than a passing breeze when it comes to analyzing real actions / claims / ideas.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Impossible...

WE HAVE NO BD. Only chauffeur.

0_o

Then how did i recieve a ''driven'' feedback?

[S-FM Buzzy]

Then how did i recieve a ''driven'' feedback?


Then how did i recieve a ''driven'' feedback?


Then how did i recieve a ''driven'' feedback?

He's stepping the wordplay up! You're gonna need to increase the paranoid ISO by at least 15% to get this guy back on your hitlist! xP

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

Then how did i recieve a ''driven'' feedback?

You're setting up a versus tomorrow after your buddy 11 is lynched.

You can't win that way...

Best case for you I'm lynched tomorrow, then you follow.

[S-FM Buzzy]

You're setting up a versus tomorrow after your buddy 11 is lynched.

You can't win that way...

Best case for you I'm lynched tomorrow, then you follow.

Looks like you took my advice immediately! :3


He's stepping the wordplay up! You're gonna need to increase the paranoid ISO by at least 15% to get this guy back on your hitlist! xP

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

Honestly, I doubt after 11's flip I'll ever be lynched. I'll have to be night killed.

[S-FM Buzzy]

btw 10, idk how you're interpreting all my posts as of late, but if you decide the evidence is overwhelming and I must be scum against what I would presume, could you at least give me a heads up so I can do a lw? My lw literally consists of:

"My role is 'X', I've done 'Y'" (where Y can = nothing because X can = citizen)

and I'd rather add something a bit more substantial :3

[S-FM Buzzy]

Honestly, I doubt after 11's flip I'll ever be lynched. I'll have to be night killed.

Don't speak so confidently about who's gonna get lynched bro. 10 might just surprise you again xP

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

Don't speak so confidently about who's gonna get lynched bro. 10 might just surprise you again xP

Meh, in case I'm tailored. I'm coroner. 6 was exec. That's the extent of feedback.

I submitted a ridiculously long last will N2 that I haven't updated.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Meh, in case I'm tailored. I'm coroner. 6 was exec. That's the extent of feedback.

I submitted a ridiculously long last will N2 that I haven't updated.

Jesus christ man, the bait is real. Noone's even gonna bite any more! It just hurts to watch at this point!

[S-FM Grubby]

Meh, in case I'm tailored. I'm coroner. 6 was exec. That's the extent of feedback.

I submitted a ridiculously long last will N2 that I haven't updated.

Could you share that last will?

[S-FM Squiggly]

I am here, whats up guys?

[S-FM Squiggly]

wrong quote...

11 could be actress, I'll throw up the 9-11 exchanges

What?
Where in hell do you make this stuff up?

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

Could you share that last will?

Last Will:
Coroner here


Also, Tenth, I would never pick someone like you as Prime Minister, no matter how much "town-ish" you are. Your offesive gesture tells me enough about your bad personality.

Does anyone agree with me?

pOLaR bipOLaR iS NOt in TrUST POSItioN. no pOsitIon is MOST GlorIOus leAdeR worThy. ALl iS doUbt. PeRMANENT IS Death.

aka- BUS, D1 vote on either fuckers is protraded.


Doctors you must realize by now that if anyone of us were to be elected into a post that we would all be elected surely. We are one and the same afterall.

This reminds me of a particular player I always read as scum. His strategy is to play as neutral as possible. I will be watching him.


By golly good friend! I do not feel that number 10 has done enough to be esteemed as a town read. His behavior immediately following his one "town" post has been utter rubbish. It feels as if the tenth doctor attempted to make one good post, and then write off the rest of the day as useless. No no, this cannot be.

BUs


Your brutal language cannot stifle my courage!

If I may ask, good doctor, what is your opinion regarding the seventh doctor?

GOat FuCker
== Intro ==

There are objective differences between town and mafia. Town are uninformed; mafia are informed. Town scumhunt; mafia don't. Town push lynches on people they think are mafia; mafia know the alignment of those they push and defend. Town must lynch to win; mafia need not lynch anyone. These differences create "tells." Analyzing behavior allows the town to locate these "tells," which in turn allows town to find and lynch mafia.
bossy's going to argue that tells cannot exist on D1. He'll argue that D1 behaviors aren't "objective information" and he'll argue that "tells" only exist after the town has "objective information." However, the town does have "objective informaton" on D1. That objective information is knowledge about the differences between town and mafia. Town know they must lynch mafia to win; they also know mafia need not lynch anyone. Or another example -- town knows that mafia knows everyone's alignment. This information is "objective information" that all townies possess at the start of every mafia game.

This "objective information" is also all you need to find scum on D1. Even if it's not successful 100% of the time, it certainly increases the likelihood of a successful D1 lynch. Ultimately, the mafia cannot help but post from an informed perspective, and town cannot help but post from an uninformed perspective. Tells are unavoidable. Thus, even the best mafiosos are often caught via behavioral analysis on D1. This is not to say everyone can spot tells, but just becuase you can't spot tells doesn't mean they don't exist. The trick is developing the ability to spot them.

== What does behavioral analysis on D1 look like? ==

The following quote comes from a game on mafiascum that F-16 recommended I use for purposes of illustrating good behavioral analysis on D1. I edited a couple posts together for the sake of readability. The substance of the analysis remains unchanged. Baboon, the subject of the analysis, was a hydra who flipped mafia after being lynched on D2. However, the analysis itself is from D1.
"Baboon's certainty that I'm scum is excessively high for the gamestate/reasoning. Their reasoning was: OMGUS + reactive play + a belief that I stole their idea. That reasoning does not square with their certainty, which is a scum-tell because it shows that their read is fake. How much weight would you give each point? OMGUS? I'd give it none. It's not a scum-tell, and Baboon are experienced enough not to give it much if any weight. Reactive play? Arguably more weight than OMGUS but still, not much, because I tend to be a reactive player sometimes. Stealing their idea? Nothing scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. And the weight Baboon gives these behaviors simply doesn't square with their certainty. Which shows that their thought process is contrived." [1]

The analysis works by focusing on a major difference between town and mafia: the mafia must fake scumreads because they know who the town are. The result is mafia sometimes reveal a discrepancy between their degree of certaity and their provided reasoning. Town never have a discrepancy between their degree of certainty and their provided reasoning, because their degree of certainty is always a product of their reasoning.

Mafia cannot know what degree of certainty a read should have because they cannot evaluate their reasoning fron an uninformed perspective. That produces a "tell" based on "objective inforation," i.e. mafia will sometimes understate or overstate their degree of certainty vis-a-vis their reasoning. Town can use this fact to find scum on D1 by analyzing behaviors.

== Why analyze behavior on D1? ==

(1) The town should lynch on D1.

I think bossy agrees, but to be safe, here's two simple reasons to lynch on D1. First, town cannot predict ahead-of-time if it'll get to MYLO or LYLO. If you no lynch and then end up at MYLO, the town's down a possible mislynch. To ensure we use every possible mislynch every game, town should lynch on D1. Ultimately, lynching on D1 gives the town more control over who ends up at LYLO.

Second, D1 lynches provide tons of behavioral information, because it's when the informational disparity between town and scum is greatest. That means the informed/uninformed dichotomy is at its strongest on D1, which makes the D1 lynch a goldmine of behavioral information to analyze in retrospect, and even during D1 itself.

(2) Analyzing behavior increases the success of D1 lynches. It's "possible" to find scum through behaviors alone. The quote above from the mafiascum game is an example of this. F-16's WhiteFlag Nightless game is the best example of that on this site. The game had no roles or theme. The players had to rely solely on behaviors. The town steamrolled the scum. [2] Towns that use behavioral analysis on D1 lynch with a higher percentage success on D1 than if they were to lynch randomly. That makes behavioral analysis a useful tool which increases town's chance of winning.
My opponent is correct in identifying the fact that there are differences between town and scum. The problem is that, if town is uninformed, all of their actions are baseless and random – as such, there is no way to distinguish town from scum, since scum-sided actions are just as likely to come from town as they are to come from scum. If town tries to read people or do anything but end the DP ASAP, they are liable to being misread as scum. Since you can’t distinguish between town and scum, most of DP1 is clutter.




The fact of the matter is that reactions can only be evaluated as reactions to something; some event is needed for there to be legitimate reactions that have motives behind them. My opponent claims that the differences between what town and scum have to do to win the game is enough to induce differences in behavior – the behavioral differences that can be seen on DP1 come from the fact that reads must be fabricated. The problem with this argument is that it assumes that any reads on DP1 can be justified to begin with. If scum are caught because their reads are groundless and they cannot judge the degree of certainty to put behind them, these reads must have less of a rational basis than the reads of town. This begs the question – it assumes that reads can be given on DP1 by town that are grounded in anything but thin air.


If town cannot give rational reads, then there is no reason for assuming that the certainty they put behind their irrational reads are anything but arbitrary. If that is so, then there are no distinctions between scum and town reads, and, as such, this is not a valid foundation for behavioral analysis.


My opponent’s arguments regarding the success rates of behavioral analysis on DP1 do not help his case – they assume a causal link between town wins and behavioral analysis simply from correlation, rather than any rational justification for such a relationship.


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Debate Round No. 2
FourTrouble
Pro
Bossy's entire argument reduces to this: "Town are uninformed, so their actions are baseless and random." There's two problems with that argument. First, town's actions are not "baseless and random" just because they're "uninformed" When I say the town is uninformed, what that means is that the town does not know the alignment of anyone else. The game is a puzzle that they have to solve. They do not know the solution, so they're uninformed. But that doesn't mean everything they do is "baseless" or "random." Town can act with a purpose. They can vote and unvote. They can analyze behaviors. They can analyze responses. They can ask questions. They can lynch. Each of those things are done intentionally, with the ultimate goal of exposing the scum. bossy is simply wrong that town's actions are "baseless and random" because town's "uninformed."
Second, the fact that town are uninformed and mafia are informed means town and mafia act differently. So even if bossy's right that town's actions are "baseless and random," that's still a basis for analyzing behavior, because the mafia won't have "baseless and random" actions. The mafia cannot act "randomly" because their votes will reflect an informed perspective. If the town is building up a lynch on town, the mafia KNOWS it's on town. The mafia KNOWS it's a mislynch. The mafia can either support the mislynch or not support the mislynch. Either way, the mafia will ALREADY KNOW whether it's a mislynch. That makes their actions non-random, which means their behavior is DISTINGUISHABLE from town behaviors.
Bossy says "scum-sided actions are just as likely to come from town as they are to come from scum." First, that statement is simply untrue. Mafia will act pro-scum more often than town because everything mafia do is pro-scum (or they wouldn't do it), whereas town do things that are pro-town at least some of the time (otherwise they'd never win). Thus, bossy's statement is false on its face. Second, even if town and scum both perform pro-scum actions, they do it with a different intent, and from a different perspective. Mafia do things from an informed perspective, so when they act pro-scum, they do it intentionally, and they know it'll be pro-scum. When town do pro-scum things, they do it unintentionally, from an uninformed perspective, so they don't realize ahead-of-time it'll be pro-scum. That fact alone allows town to distinguish pro-scum behaviors from town and scum.
Bossy says "if town tries to read people or do anything but end the DP ASAP, they are liable to being misread as scum." This statement has no impact. Town are always liable to being misread. That doesn't mean they should sit around and do nothing. If they do nothing, the mafia wins. Town MUST do something, and anytime they do something, they're liable to being misread. That's simply not a reason against behavioral analysis.

Bossy says "reactions can only be evaluated as reactions to something; some event is needed for there to be legitimate reactions that have motives behind them." I do not disagree. Town and mafia are always reacting to something. They're first reaction begins when they receive their role. Then, when someone posts in the DP, everyone reacts. The reactions continue. Yes, the FIRST vote that someone puts down will probably be random, but that doesn't mean that REACTIONS are random. The reactions themselves are legitimate.

Bossy says "if scum are caught because their reads are groundless and they cannot judge the degree of certainty to put behind them, these reads must have less of a rational basis than the reads of town." I think bossy misunderstands how the degree of certainty tell works. Mafia often provide reasons with better reasoning than town's reads. Even so, the mafia can be caught, because often their degree of certainty won't match that reasoning. If the reasoning is really good, but the mafia is uncertain to an unnatural degree, then it suggests that the read itself is fake, even though the reasoning is good. The relevant issue here is whether the degree of certainty matches the reasoning. Whether the reasoning is good or bad, or whether the reasoning is more or less rational, is only relevant for the tell insofar as it helps evaluate the read's degree of certainty.

Bossy says "if town cannot give rational reads, then there is no reason for assuming that the certainty they put behind their irrational reads are anything but arbitrary." I'm not sure what bossy's talking about. The degree of certainty will be a product of their reasoning. Townies don't go around calling someone scum unless they have a reason to think that person is scum. Their degree of certainty will reflect the strength or weakness of their reasoning, as well as how much depth their thought process has, plus other situational details and player meta. Behavioral analysis incorporates all these things.

Bossy argues that town cannot "justify" their reads because it's based on nothing, I already addressed this argument multiple times, in this round as well as in the previous round. Bossy does a terrible job addressing the actual arguments I made in the prior round. He keeps saying town have no basis for their reads, but as I explained, town and mafia behave differently.

The town KNOWS three things: (1) it knows that they have a different win condition than mafia; (2) it knows that mafia cannot treat the game like a puzzle because mafia knows everyone's alignments; and (3) it knows that mafia therefore must fabricate reads. Those three facts -- which the Town knows from the beginning of the game -- are enough to begin analyzing behaviors. They provide a "ground," or a "base," or a "non-random" element, to behavioral analysis. Bossy never addresses that argument. He does not ever explain how the town's KNOWLEDGE is not sufficient to provide a "ground." He simply just states -- without ever substantiating -- that town has no basis for its reads.
Report this Argument
bossyburrito
Con
My opponent correctly identifies my argument - that, since there is nothing to go off of, Town will always play essentially randomly on DP1, and, if this is so, there is no way to distinguish between Town and Scum play. He argues that Town's actions aren't baseless because they're capable of choosing to do things intentionally - the problem is that he never shows that these actions are inherently ratonally justifiable.

My point is not that Scum act randomly. My point is that there is no way of distinguishing between directed and purposeful Scum actions and Town actions that were random. By definition, if Town acts randomly, it is completely possible that they will act exactly as Scum would. Therefore, as long as Town is forced to act randomly (and they are before there are objective results/flips), they can appear to be just as scummy as Scum, and, if this is so, there is no way to read people to distinguish Town from Scum.
My opponent has built his case around the idea that Scum act to further their wincon, and, because of this, all you have to do to find Scum is to find people doing what Scum would do. This completely fails if town does what Scum would do, and, if DP1 Town play is essentially random, Town is likely to do what Scum would.

My opponent claims that you can tell Town from Scum because Townies do pro-Town things, while Scum do not. This presupposes that there is a way to tell what actions are pro-Town on DP1, and, since the only way to do this is to read people to judge who is Town and Scum so you can analyze which actions benefit which factions, my opponent is begging the question. What is a pro-Town action if Town has no way of telling Town from Scum?

Pro's entire case boils down to this: "Behavioral analysis on DP1 is valuable because we can distinguish Town from Scum. We can distinguish Town from Scum because behavioral analysis on DP1 is valid." Again, this just begs the question - how do you validate behavioral analysis without presupposing that it's useful? My opponent has yet to give a plausible solution.

My point wasn't that Town shouldn't read because they're liable to be misread - it's that the fact that Town can be misread shows that Town cannot distinguish between Town and Scum, and, as such, Town should not try. I agree, Town must be active to win the game, but the way to do this is most certainly not by trying to read people on DP1. Intent doesn't matter if Town is unable to determine it.
Re: the certainty behind reads

It's irrelevant whether or not Mafia must fake reads in a certain way. What is relevant is if Town is able to tell that the reads are fake, and this can only be done if Town reads are any different. If Town has no basis for reads, they must basically throw them out randomly, and, if this is so, there is no reason to suppose that any particular reads are intentionally misleading instead of just coming from a Townie with nothing better to post. My opponent says that "Townies don't go around calling someone scum unless they have a reason to think that person is scum", but this assumes that Townies are able to have a reason for thinking that players are scum on DP1, which my arguments deny.
I do not object to the fact that the Town has some certain knowledge at the start of the game. It's obvious that Town knows that they are Town and that Mafia is not and that each faction must play for themselves. This is totally irrelevant, however, if it cannot be shown that this knowledge helps ground any reads in reality. Like I have already argued, even if Scum must play a certain way to win, if this play is indistinguishable from Town play then there is no way to distinguish Scum from Town. I accept that Scum has to fabricate reads to win the game. What my opponent is missing is that, on DP1, Town also has to fabricate reads. Like my opponent said, "the FIRST vote that someone puts down will probably be random". If this is so, there is no correct way to react. If something is random and arbitrary, any responses to it will also be so. As of yet, my opponent hasn't been able to give a substantial defence of his idea of Townie play and why it is different from Scum play outside of just saying that it is. He has not shown that Town is even able to non-randomly act to fulfill their win-con on DP1.
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Debate Round No. 3
FourTrouble
Pro
== Rebuttal ==

I'll start with definitions. "Random" means acting "without definite aim, direction, rule, or method"; "lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern." [1] "Rational" means "based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings." [2]

Town act with a definite aim, direction, and purpose. Their goal is to find the mafia and lynch them. Even when town act irrationally (i.e. based on emotions or feelings), they still act with that specific intent. The idea that town always act randomly is simply untrue.

The idea that behavioral analysis cannot be rational is also untrue. The differences between town and mafia are "facts." Votes, reads, and claims are "facts." Themes are "facts." These "facts" provide a "rational" basis for analyzing the game. The behavioral analysis I cited earlier is an example. It refers to the specific facts in the game, and provides reasons (not emotions or feelings) why those facts lead to a certain conclusion about alignment.

NOTE: Bossy's argument rests on a logical fallacy. He conflates the words "random" and "irrational" (he says town plays randomly because they cannot justify anything they do rationally). But irrational acts can be and often are non-random. Bossy gives no reason to think otherwise.

== What if town always play randomly? ==

For the sake of argument, let's assume town always play randomly. Sometimes, these random actions will look scummy. Sometimes, these random actions will not look scummy. That's the nature of randomness, right?

So, sometimes, town will do random things that mafia would not do (because mafia do not act randomly). That means, at the very least, town can use behavioral analysis to locate other townies via town-tells. Under this logic, there's no such thing as a scum-tell, but there is such thing as a town-tell.

If you can find all the townies, you've effectively found all the mafia through process of elimination. The net result of analyzing behavior is thus positive even if we assume town always act randomly.

NOTE: I'm not conceding that town always play randomly. I'm just testing out the hypo to show that bossy's argument is wrong and his framework incoherent. I say the framework is incoherent because the moment town start locating town-tells, town aren't acting randomly anymore, so the framework collapses.

== Begging The Question ==

"Begging the question" means "assuming the conclusion of an argument" (i.e. circular reasoning). Bossy seems to love the phrase. For almost everything I argue, he claims I'm begging the question.

The irony of bossy's position is that he's begging the question, not me. This is bossy's argument: "Town and mafia behave the same because town play randomly. Town play randomly because they cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors. Town cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors because town and mafia play the same." That's circular reasoning.

The argument I made is not circular. I begin with the facts. Town do not know alignments; mafia know alignments. Town must lynch; mafia need not lynch. Town need not fake reads; mafia must fake reads. These facts are not in dispute.

From these facts, I argue that town and mafia act differently. I apply common sense. When town read the game, they're looking for the mafia. When mafia read the game, they're looking for townies to mislynch. That means town and mafia will interpret the game differently. The result is that town respond to new facts (votes, reads, and claims) differently than mafia.

I'm assuming that anyone reading this debate has played mafia. Just recall your experience as town and your experience as mafia; the two experiences are entirely different. The way you think about the game is different. I argue that town and mafia manifest these differences in their behaviors. This is common sense. I support the argument with a specific example (e.g. the degree of certainty tell). I could cite many more examples.
Finally, I argue that if town and mafia manifest different behaviors, then town should be able to locate these differences. If town and mafia play differently, then those differences should theoretically be identifiable. The data supports that thesis, since town's that use behavioral analysis do better than those that don't use it (bossy concedes this point earlier in the debate). There are countless examples of games where town destroys the mafia on D1 (and the rest of the game) using only behavioral analysis. That suggests that town can indeed locate town behaviors and mafia behaviors with better success than random.

At no point does my argument beg the question. Only bossy's argument uses circular reasoning. My argument flows logically from the initial facts I started with, which themselves are not in dispute. By contrast, bossy's argument never starts with any facts. Instead, he starts with conclusions ("town always play randomly," or "town and mafia play the same"), which he never justifies except by reference to other conclusions.

== How to start D1? ==

When the game first starts, the town needs to do something to get the game moving. They can do this in different ways, but the most popular way is a random voting stage ("RVS"). We describe the votes at this stage as "random," but usually players attach some "reason" for their vote. For example, someone might say, "FourTrouble sounds like trouble, so I'm voting him." Or they might refer to a player's history: "Khaos is always mafia, so let's start there." Or they might apply a rule (e.g. the inactive rule or noob rule).

These votes are not based in anything from the game yet, but they do flow from players having different alignments and goals. Sometimes, these RVS-votes reveal stuff about alignments because mafia are trying to blend in, whereas town are trying to get the game moving. These different goals can and do create differences.

Even if no differences emerge during RVS itself, responses begin to create meaningful information. Town and mafia will interpret RVS-votes differently simply because their perspective on the game is different. The mafia know which votes are wrong and which votes are right; the town don't. The perspective on these initial random votes is different, so the responses to them are (at least sometimes) different.

This eventually leads to a meaningful discussion about behaviors. That discussion itself produces more meaningful discussion. Eventually, RVS is the further thing from your mind. The players are pushing votes on people they ACTUALLY think are mafia, or mafia are pushing votes on people they're ACTUALLY trying to mislynch. At that point, nothing is randomly anymore. Town and mafia each have specific goals they're trying to accomplish, and that leads the town and mafia to manifest differences in their behavior.

Bossy says all responses are random, but like I explained earlier, that's simply not true. Town will respond to RVS votes by looking for scum. They look for something they can start meaningful discussion about. Examples of RVS moving into meaningful discussion are everywhere. You can look at almost every game where town lynched on D1. Or any game on mafiascum. Or F-16's game cited earlier. The town starts with RVS and eventually moves into meaningful discussion. At some point, folks push lynches they believe in. And that's the point where nothing is random anymore, because that's when you can actually analyze the motives behind those pushes.

Sources:
[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Report this Argument
bossyburrito
Con
Re: Definitions, etc.


If something is irrational, it is baseless. There is no reason for it being so – it, by definition, has no grounding in reality, so it has no restraints and cannot be said to be any less random (in the sense that it has no underlying method or deterministic necessity) than a dice roll. If something is random, it, by definition, cannot be motivated by the wincons of town or scum, which are, as my opponent admits, the main determinators of the differences between the plays of the factions, so random actions cannot be analyzed to find the affiliation of the actor.


This is my argument summed up:

P.1 That which is random cannot be known to be aimed neither for town nor scum

P.2 Town DP1 actions are random

C.1 Town DP1 actions cannot be known to be aimed neither for town nor scum

P.3 For behavioral analysis of actions to be useful, there must be a distinction between factions – it must be knowable that town must aim its actions for town and scum for scum

P.4 It is not knowable that town aims its actions for town on DP1

C.2 Behavioral analysis is not useful on DP1


The “facts” my opponents claim provide a basis for reads do no such thing, as how they are represented to every player does not allow the motives behind them to be objectively and absolutely revealed. If the motives cannot be seen, then reads based on them are baseless, by definition, since there would be no base and no reason to make any evaluations one way or another from them.


== Re: What if town always play randomly? ==


Finding which actions are town-sided can only be done if the players that make up town are already known. From the perspective of a town player on DP1, no action can be known to be pro-town or pro-scum prior to a flip. As such, you cannot base reads off of this – to base reads off of pro-town actions, you would have to first be able to read players to determine which actions are pro-town, and to do that you would have to have already established a standard to read people by, etc. to infinity. This is clearly absurd.


== Re: Begging The Question ==
“This is bossy's argument: "Town and mafia behave the same because town play randomly. Town play randomly because they cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors. Town cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors because town and mafia play the same." “

It is a truth that, because of the very nature of town (being uninformed players), there is no solid basis for reads. This is not circular – my conclusion is based on this near-a-priori fact about the game. There is no justification for the idea that an individual townie having information regarding himself is enough for him to pass any judgements on the alignments of other players, and, if this is so, any such judgements must be random.

My opponent’s argument is predicated on the idea that “Town need not fake reads”. I have shown this to beg the question – for town to do anything other than “fake” (pull out of thin air) reads, they must first be able to read in the first place, which is absurd if the entire justification for reads even existing is that townies do not fake reads. It’s entirely circular. It doesn’t matter what town and mafia have as goals – what matters is if you’re able to distinguish between the actions each take to reach those goals. Since I have shown that Town acts randomly, distinguishment of this sort is impossible, and, as such, my opponent’s case collapses.

My opponent’s examples are irrelevant if he is not able to show a causal link between behavioral analysis and winning. He has only shown a correlation, which is not sufficient to rebut my arguments.


== Re: How to start D1? ==


If random events cannot be evaluated to determine whether they were caused by Town or Scum, no player would be able to react to them in any meaningful way. If there was an equal chance that a post was made by scum or by town, then for the responses to be non-random the only possibility is that players respond the same to town and scum posts, which is, in itself, damning for the idea of responses containing affiliation information. If players respond differently to town and scum posts, but had no way of finding out which was which, they would literally have to flip a coin to determine what their reaction would be. This is equally damning.


It doesn’t matter who people “think” are mafia – what matters is what they actually post, and the reasons for posting what they post are essentially random.

[S-FM Squiggly]

That last will is cancer.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

I realize this was my N1 last will

[S-FM Squiggly]

I guess it should be expected from you to go over the top in a last will.
All mine has is role and a few reads.

[S-FM The War Doctor]

I think 7 lynch will be most info privy cus we have 3 ppl on there so there is at least 1 town in the grouping.

[S-FM Squiggly]

I noticed their seems to be alot of shit on me that makes me look scummy.
Huh.
Lack of roleblocks.
Lack of another driver.

Could the scum have a consort and driver?
Wait...
That doesn't make sense either.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

That last will is cancer.

Yeah, it was truly terrible. D1 impressions were pretty weak.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

That last will is cancer.

#4 is more like aids. He fucks you and then you slowly die.

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

I think 7 lynch will be most info privy cus we have 3 ppl on there so there is at least 1 town in the grouping.

11 lynch reveals mafia setup either way...

7 lynch reveals... VCA which at this point means nothing.

[S-FM Squiggly]

11 lynch reveals mafia setup either way...

7 lynch reveals... VCA which at this point means nothing.

How in hell would my flip tell you anything?

[S-FM The Fourth Doctor]

How in hell would my flip tell you anything?

... Because I've explained it too many times and 12 gets it. I refer to 12 for wording.

It reveals you lied about escort/consort and second bus.

[S-FM Grubby]

S-FM The Fourth Doctor

I just do not believe he is stuck on issues like he is pretending to be. Between his hardcore tunnel vision and so many of the things he says I can see coming from a scum point of view I am once again going just do my own thing here. Some of you may be pissed about it but hopefully after the flip you will be all happy and shit. Even if I am wrong I believe this lynch will give us the greatest amount of info to go off of the following day.

Oh, And that last will looks like some last second throw together bullshit.. I don't believe town would lie about having a crazy last will

[The Godfather]

S-FM The Fourth Doctor has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


S-FM The Seventh Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/22245') (3 [L-2]): S-FM The Eleventh Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525195'), S-FM The Ninth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525257'), S-FM The Fifth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525362')
S-FM The Fourth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/22191') (5 [L-0]): S-FM The Third Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525196'), S-FM The War Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525593'), S-FM The Tenth Doctor (Mayor) ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525679')
S-FM The Eleventh Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15886') (2 [L-3]): S-FM The Seventh Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525582'), S-FM The Fourth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525490')

[Rassilon]

Night Four

Night Four Ends at THIS TIME (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20151021T02&p0=136&font=cursive&swk=1)

S-FM The Fourth Doctor Has been Lynched.
His role was: Coroner


Last Will

Also, Tenth, I would never pick someone like you as Prime Minister, no matter how much "town-ish" you are. Your offesive gesture tells me enough about your bad personality.

Does anyone agree with me?

pOLaR bipOLaR iS NOt in TrUST POSItioN. no pOsitIon is MOST GlorIOus leAdeR worThy. ALl iS doUbt. PeRMANENT IS Death.

aka- BUS, D1 vote on either fuckers is protraded.


Doctors you must realize by now that if anyone of us were to be elected into a post that we would all be elected surely. We are one and the same afterall.

This reminds me of a particular player I always read as scum. His strategy is to play as neutral as possible. I will be watching him.


By golly good friend! I do not feel that number 10 has done enough to be esteemed as a town read. His behavior immediately following his one "town" post has been utter rubbish. It feels as if the tenth doctor attempted to make one good post, and then write off the rest of the day as useless. No no, this cannot be.

BUs


Your brutal language cannot stifle my courage!

If I may ask, good doctor, what is your opinion regarding the seventh doctor?

GOat FuCker
== Intro ==

There are objective differences between town and mafia. Town are uninformed; mafia are informed. Town scumhunt; mafia don't. Town push lynches on people they think are mafia; mafia know the alignment of those they push and defend. Town must lynch to win; mafia need not lynch anyone. These differences create "tells." Analyzing behavior allows the town to locate these "tells," which in turn allows town to find and lynch mafia.
bossy's going to argue that tells cannot exist on D1. He'll argue that D1 behaviors aren't "objective information" and he'll argue that "tells" only exist after the town has "objective information." However, the town does have "objective informaton" on D1. That objective information is knowledge about the differences between town and mafia. Town know they must lynch mafia to win; they also know mafia need not lynch anyone. Or another example -- town knows that mafia knows everyone's alignment. This information is "objective information" that all townies possess at the start of every mafia game.

This "objective information" is also all you need to find scum on D1. Even if it's not successful 100% of the time, it certainly increases the likelihood of a successful D1 lynch. Ultimately, the mafia cannot help but post from an informed perspective, and town cannot help but post from an uninformed perspective. Tells are unavoidable. Thus, even the best mafiosos are often caught via behavioral analysis on D1. This is not to say everyone can spot tells, but just becuase you can't spot tells doesn't mean they don't exist. The trick is developing the ability to spot them.

== What does behavioral analysis on D1 look like? ==

The following quote comes from a game on mafiascum that F-16 recommended I use for purposes of illustrating good behavioral analysis on D1. I edited a couple posts together for the sake of readability. The substance of the analysis remains unchanged. Baboon, the subject of the analysis, was a hydra who flipped mafia after being lynched on D2. However, the analysis itself is from D1.
"Baboon's certainty that I'm scum is excessively high for the gamestate/reasoning. Their reasoning was: OMGUS + reactive play + a belief that I stole their idea. That reasoning does not square with their certainty, which is a scum-tell because it shows that their read is fake. How much weight would you give each point? OMGUS? I'd give it none. It's not a scum-tell, and Baboon are experienced enough not to give it much if any weight. Reactive play? Arguably more weight than OMGUS but still, not much, because I tend to be a reactive player sometimes. Stealing their idea? Nothing scummy about it. Does the behavior show that my thought process was contrived? No. Does it show that my behaviors are contrived? No. Does it have any pro-scum effect? No. Does it have any scum motivation? No. I could go down the list of ways to connect a behavior to scum. But it doesn't have any of them. It's a purely null behavior. But Baboon never considered much deeper than surface-level. And the weight Baboon gives these behaviors simply doesn't square with their certainty. Which shows that their thought process is contrived." [1]

The analysis works by focusing on a major difference between town and mafia: the mafia must fake scumreads because they know who the town are. The result is mafia sometimes reveal a discrepancy between their degree of certaity and their provided reasoning. Town never have a discrepancy between their degree of certainty and their provided reasoning, because their degree of certainty is always a product of their reasoning.

Mafia cannot know what degree of certainty a read should have because they cannot evaluate their reasoning fron an uninformed perspective. That produces a "tell" based on "objective inforation," i.e. mafia will sometimes understate or overstate their degree of certainty vis-a-vis their reasoning. Town can use this fact to find scum on D1 by analyzing behaviors.

== Why analyze behavior on D1? ==

(1) The town should lynch on D1.

I think bossy agrees, but to be safe, here's two simple reasons to lynch on D1. First, town cannot predict ahead-of-time if it'll get to MYLO or LYLO. If you no lynch and then end up at MYLO, the town's down a possible mislynch. To ensure we use every possible mislynch every game, town should lynch on D1. Ultimately, lynching on D1 gives the town more control over who ends up at LYLO.

Second, D1 lynches provide tons of behavioral information, because it's when the informational disparity between town and scum is greatest. That means the informed/uninformed dichotomy is at its strongest on D1, which makes the D1 lynch a goldmine of behavioral information to analyze in retrospect, and even during D1 itself.

(2) Analyzing behavior increases the success of D1 lynches. It's "possible" to find scum through behaviors alone. The quote above from the mafiascum game is an example of this. F-16's WhiteFlag Nightless game is the best example of that on this site. The game had no roles or theme. The players had to rely solely on behaviors. The town steamrolled the scum. [2] Towns that use behavioral analysis on D1 lynch with a higher percentage success on D1 than if they were to lynch randomly. That makes behavioral analysis a useful tool which increases town's chance of winning.
My opponent is correct in identifying the fact that there are differences between town and scum. The problem is that, if town is uninformed, all of their actions are baseless and random – as such, there is no way to distinguish town from scum, since scum-sided actions are just as likely to come from town as they are to come from scum. If town tries to read people or do anything but end the DP ASAP, they are liable to being misread as scum. Since you can’t distinguish between town and scum, most of DP1 is clutter.




The fact of the matter is that reactions can only be evaluated as reactions to something; some event is needed for there to be legitimate reactions that have motives behind them. My opponent claims that the differences between what town and scum have to do to win the game is enough to induce differences in behavior – the behavioral differences that can be seen on DP1 come from the fact that reads must be fabricated. The problem with this argument is that it assumes that any reads on DP1 can be justified to begin with. If scum are caught because their reads are groundless and they cannot judge the degree of certainty to put behind them, these reads must have less of a rational basis than the reads of town. This begs the question – it assumes that reads can be given on DP1 by town that are grounded in anything but thin air.


If town cannot give rational reads, then there is no reason for assuming that the certainty they put behind their irrational reads are anything but arbitrary. If that is so, then there are no distinctions between scum and town reads, and, as such, this is not a valid foundation for behavioral analysis.


My opponent’s arguments regarding the success rates of behavioral analysis on DP1 do not help his case – they assume a causal link between town wins and behavioral analysis simply from correlation, rather than any rational justification for such a relationship.


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Debate Round No. 2
FourTrouble
Pro
Bossy's entire argument reduces to this: "Town are uninformed, so their actions are baseless and random." There's two problems with that argument. First, town's actions are not "baseless and random" just because they're "uninformed" When I say the town is uninformed, what that means is that the town does not know the alignment of anyone else. The game is a puzzle that they have to solve. They do not know the solution, so they're uninformed. But that doesn't mean everything they do is "baseless" or "random." Town can act with a purpose. They can vote and unvote. They can analyze behaviors. They can analyze responses. They can ask questions. They can lynch. Each of those things are done intentionally, with the ultimate goal of exposing the scum. bossy is simply wrong that town's actions are "baseless and random" because town's "uninformed."
Second, the fact that town are uninformed and mafia are informed means town and mafia act differently. So even if bossy's right that town's actions are "baseless and random," that's still a basis for analyzing behavior, because the mafia won't have "baseless and random" actions. The mafia cannot act "randomly" because their votes will reflect an informed perspective. If the town is building up a lynch on town, the mafia KNOWS it's on town. The mafia KNOWS it's a mislynch. The mafia can either support the mislynch or not support the mislynch. Either way, the mafia will ALREADY KNOW whether it's a mislynch. That makes their actions non-random, which means their behavior is DISTINGUISHABLE from town behaviors.
Bossy says "scum-sided actions are just as likely to come from town as they are to come from scum." First, that statement is simply untrue. Mafia will act pro-scum more often than town because everything mafia do is pro-scum (or they wouldn't do it), whereas town do things that are pro-town at least some of the time (otherwise they'd never win). Thus, bossy's statement is false on its face. Second, even if town and scum both perform pro-scum actions, they do it with a different intent, and from a different perspective. Mafia do things from an informed perspective, so when they act pro-scum, they do it intentionally, and they know it'll be pro-scum. When town do pro-scum things, they do it unintentionally, from an uninformed perspective, so they don't realize ahead-of-time it'll be pro-scum. That fact alone allows town to distinguish pro-scum behaviors from town and scum.
Bossy says "if town tries to read people or do anything but end the DP ASAP, they are liable to being misread as scum." This statement has no impact. Town are always liable to being misread. That doesn't mean they should sit around and do nothing. If they do nothing, the mafia wins. Town MUST do something, and anytime they do something, they're liable to being misread. That's simply not a reason against behavioral analysis.

Bossy says "reactions can only be evaluated as reactions to something; some event is needed for there to be legitimate reactions that have motives behind them." I do not disagree. Town and mafia are always reacting to something. They're first reaction begins when they receive their role. Then, when someone posts in the DP, everyone reacts. The reactions continue. Yes, the FIRST vote that someone puts down will probably be random, but that doesn't mean that REACTIONS are random. The reactions themselves are legitimate.

Bossy says "if scum are caught because their reads are groundless and they cannot judge the degree of certainty to put behind them, these reads must have less of a rational basis than the reads of town." I think bossy misunderstands how the degree of certainty tell works. Mafia often provide reasons with better reasoning than town's reads. Even so, the mafia can be caught, because often their degree of certainty won't match that reasoning. If the reasoning is really good, but the mafia is uncertain to an unnatural degree, then it suggests that the read itself is fake, even though the reasoning is good. The relevant issue here is whether the degree of certainty matches the reasoning. Whether the reasoning is good or bad, or whether the reasoning is more or less rational, is only relevant for the tell insofar as it helps evaluate the read's degree of certainty.

Bossy says "if town cannot give rational reads, then there is no reason for assuming that the certainty they put behind their irrational reads are anything but arbitrary." I'm not sure what bossy's talking about. The degree of certainty will be a product of their reasoning. Townies don't go around calling someone scum unless they have a reason to think that person is scum. Their degree of certainty will reflect the strength or weakness of their reasoning, as well as how much depth their thought process has, plus other situational details and player meta. Behavioral analysis incorporates all these things.

Bossy argues that town cannot "justify" their reads because it's based on nothing, I already addressed this argument multiple times, in this round as well as in the previous round. Bossy does a terrible job addressing the actual arguments I made in the prior round. He keeps saying town have no basis for their reads, but as I explained, town and mafia behave differently.

The town KNOWS three things: (1) it knows that they have a different win condition than mafia; (2) it knows that mafia cannot treat the game like a puzzle because mafia knows everyone's alignments; and (3) it knows that mafia therefore must fabricate reads. Those three facts -- which the Town knows from the beginning of the game -- are enough to begin analyzing behaviors. They provide a "ground," or a "base," or a "non-random" element, to behavioral analysis. Bossy never addresses that argument. He does not ever explain how the town's KNOWLEDGE is not sufficient to provide a "ground." He simply just states -- without ever substantiating -- that town has no basis for its reads.
Report this Argument
bossyburrito
Con
My opponent correctly identifies my argument - that, since there is nothing to go off of, Town will always play essentially randomly on DP1, and, if this is so, there is no way to distinguish between Town and Scum play. He argues that Town's actions aren't baseless because they're capable of choosing to do things intentionally - the problem is that he never shows that these actions are inherently ratonally justifiable.

My point is not that Scum act randomly. My point is that there is no way of distinguishing between directed and purposeful Scum actions and Town actions that were random. By definition, if Town acts randomly, it is completely possible that they will act exactly as Scum would. Therefore, as long as Town is forced to act randomly (and they are before there are objective results/flips), they can appear to be just as scummy as Scum, and, if this is so, there is no way to read people to distinguish Town from Scum.
My opponent has built his case around the idea that Scum act to further their wincon, and, because of this, all you have to do to find Scum is to find people doing what Scum would do. This completely fails if town does what Scum would do, and, if DP1 Town play is essentially random, Town is likely to do what Scum would.

My opponent claims that you can tell Town from Scum because Townies do pro-Town things, while Scum do not. This presupposes that there is a way to tell what actions are pro-Town on DP1, and, since the only way to do this is to read people to judge who is Town and Scum so you can analyze which actions benefit which factions, my opponent is begging the question. What is a pro-Town action if Town has no way of telling Town from Scum?

Pro's entire case boils down to this: "Behavioral analysis on DP1 is valuable because we can distinguish Town from Scum. We can distinguish Town from Scum because behavioral analysis on DP1 is valid." Again, this just begs the question - how do you validate behavioral analysis without presupposing that it's useful? My opponent has yet to give a plausible solution.

My point wasn't that Town shouldn't read because they're liable to be misread - it's that the fact that Town can be misread shows that Town cannot distinguish between Town and Scum, and, as such, Town should not try. I agree, Town must be active to win the game, but the way to do this is most certainly not by trying to read people on DP1. Intent doesn't matter if Town is unable to determine it.
Re: the certainty behind reads

It's irrelevant whether or not Mafia must fake reads in a certain way. What is relevant is if Town is able to tell that the reads are fake, and this can only be done if Town reads are any different. If Town has no basis for reads, they must basically throw them out randomly, and, if this is so, there is no reason to suppose that any particular reads are intentionally misleading instead of just coming from a Townie with nothing better to post. My opponent says that "Townies don't go around calling someone scum unless they have a reason to think that person is scum", but this assumes that Townies are able to have a reason for thinking that players are scum on DP1, which my arguments deny.
I do not object to the fact that the Town has some certain knowledge at the start of the game. It's obvious that Town knows that they are Town and that Mafia is not and that each faction must play for themselves. This is totally irrelevant, however, if it cannot be shown that this knowledge helps ground any reads in reality. Like I have already argued, even if Scum must play a certain way to win, if this play is indistinguishable from Town play then there is no way to distinguish Scum from Town. I accept that Scum has to fabricate reads to win the game. What my opponent is missing is that, on DP1, Town also has to fabricate reads. Like my opponent said, "the FIRST vote that someone puts down will probably be random". If this is so, there is no correct way to react. If something is random and arbitrary, any responses to it will also be so. As of yet, my opponent hasn't been able to give a substantial defence of his idea of Townie play and why it is different from Scum play outside of just saying that it is. He has not shown that Town is even able to non-randomly act to fulfill their win-con on DP1.
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Debate Round No. 3
FourTrouble
Pro
== Rebuttal ==

I'll start with definitions. "Random" means acting "without definite aim, direction, rule, or method"; "lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern." [1] "Rational" means "based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings." [2]

Town act with a definite aim, direction, and purpose. Their goal is to find the mafia and lynch them. Even when town act irrationally (i.e. based on emotions or feelings), they still act with that specific intent. The idea that town always act randomly is simply untrue.

The idea that behavioral analysis cannot be rational is also untrue. The differences between town and mafia are "facts." Votes, reads, and claims are "facts." Themes are "facts." These "facts" provide a "rational" basis for analyzing the game. The behavioral analysis I cited earlier is an example. It refers to the specific facts in the game, and provides reasons (not emotions or feelings) why those facts lead to a certain conclusion about alignment.

NOTE: Bossy's argument rests on a logical fallacy. He conflates the words "random" and "irrational" (he says town plays randomly because they cannot justify anything they do rationally). But irrational acts can be and often are non-random. Bossy gives no reason to think otherwise.

== What if town always play randomly? ==

For the sake of argument, let's assume town always play randomly. Sometimes, these random actions will look scummy. Sometimes, these random actions will not look scummy. That's the nature of randomness, right?

So, sometimes, town will do random things that mafia would not do (because mafia do not act randomly). That means, at the very least, town can use behavioral analysis to locate other townies via town-tells. Under this logic, there's no such thing as a scum-tell, but there is such thing as a town-tell.

If you can find all the townies, you've effectively found all the mafia through process of elimination. The net result of analyzing behavior is thus positive even if we assume town always act randomly.

NOTE: I'm not conceding that town always play randomly. I'm just testing out the hypo to show that bossy's argument is wrong and his framework incoherent. I say the framework is incoherent because the moment town start locating town-tells, town aren't acting randomly anymore, so the framework collapses.

== Begging The Question ==

"Begging the question" means "assuming the conclusion of an argument" (i.e. circular reasoning). Bossy seems to love the phrase. For almost everything I argue, he claims I'm begging the question.

The irony of bossy's position is that he's begging the question, not me. This is bossy's argument: "Town and mafia behave the same because town play randomly. Town play randomly because they cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors. Town cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors because town and mafia play the same." That's circular reasoning.

The argument I made is not circular. I begin with the facts. Town do not know alignments; mafia know alignments. Town must lynch; mafia need not lynch. Town need not fake reads; mafia must fake reads. These facts are not in dispute.

From these facts, I argue that town and mafia act differently. I apply common sense. When town read the game, they're looking for the mafia. When mafia read the game, they're looking for townies to mislynch. That means town and mafia will interpret the game differently. The result is that town respond to new facts (votes, reads, and claims) differently than mafia.

I'm assuming that anyone reading this debate has played mafia. Just recall your experience as town and your experience as mafia; the two experiences are entirely different. The way you think about the game is different. I argue that town and mafia manifest these differences in their behaviors. This is common sense. I support the argument with a specific example (e.g. the degree of certainty tell). I could cite many more examples.
Finally, I argue that if town and mafia manifest different behaviors, then town should be able to locate these differences. If town and mafia play differently, then those differences should theoretically be identifiable. The data supports that thesis, since town's that use behavioral analysis do better than those that don't use it (bossy concedes this point earlier in the debate). There are countless examples of games where town destroys the mafia on D1 (and the rest of the game) using only behavioral analysis. That suggests that town can indeed locate town behaviors and mafia behaviors with better success than random.

At no point does my argument beg the question. Only bossy's argument uses circular reasoning. My argument flows logically from the initial facts I started with, which themselves are not in dispute. By contrast, bossy's argument never starts with any facts. Instead, he starts with conclusions ("town always play randomly," or "town and mafia play the same"), which he never justifies except by reference to other conclusions.

== How to start D1? ==

When the game first starts, the town needs to do something to get the game moving. They can do this in different ways, but the most popular way is a random voting stage ("RVS"). We describe the votes at this stage as "random," but usually players attach some "reason" for their vote. For example, someone might say, "FourTrouble sounds like trouble, so I'm voting him." Or they might refer to a player's history: "Khaos is always mafia, so let's start there." Or they might apply a rule (e.g. the inactive rule or noob rule).

These votes are not based in anything from the game yet, but they do flow from players having different alignments and goals. Sometimes, these RVS-votes reveal stuff about alignments because mafia are trying to blend in, whereas town are trying to get the game moving. These different goals can and do create differences.

Even if no differences emerge during RVS itself, responses begin to create meaningful information. Town and mafia will interpret RVS-votes differently simply because their perspective on the game is different. The mafia know which votes are wrong and which votes are right; the town don't. The perspective on these initial random votes is different, so the responses to them are (at least sometimes) different.

This eventually leads to a meaningful discussion about behaviors. That discussion itself produces more meaningful discussion. Eventually, RVS is the further thing from your mind. The players are pushing votes on people they ACTUALLY think are mafia, or mafia are pushing votes on people they're ACTUALLY trying to mislynch. At that point, nothing is randomly anymore. Town and mafia each have specific goals they're trying to accomplish, and that leads the town and mafia to manifest differences in their behavior.

Bossy says all responses are random, but like I explained earlier, that's simply not true. Town will respond to RVS votes by looking for scum. They look for something they can start meaningful discussion about. Examples of RVS moving into meaningful discussion are everywhere. You can look at almost every game where town lynched on D1. Or any game on mafiascum. Or F-16's game cited earlier. The town starts with RVS and eventually moves into meaningful discussion. At some point, folks push lynches they believe in. And that's the point where nothing is random anymore, because that's when you can actually analyze the motives behind those pushes.

Sources:
[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Report this Argument
bossyburrito
Con
Re: Definitions, etc.


If something is irrational, it is baseless. There is no reason for it being so – it, by definition, has no grounding in reality, so it has no restraints and cannot be said to be any less random (in the sense that it has no underlying method or deterministic necessity) than a dice roll. If something is random, it, by definition, cannot be motivated by the wincons of town or scum, which are, as my opponent admits, the main determinators of the differences between the plays of the factions, so random actions cannot be analyzed to find the affiliation of the actor.


This is my argument summed up:

P.1 That which is random cannot be known to be aimed neither for town nor scum

P.2 Town DP1 actions are random

C.1 Town DP1 actions cannot be known to be aimed neither for town nor scum

P.3 For behavioral analysis of actions to be useful, there must be a distinction between factions – it must be knowable that town must aim its actions for town and scum for scum

P.4 It is not knowable that town aims its actions for town on DP1

C.2 Behavioral analysis is not useful on DP1


The “facts” my opponents claim provide a basis for reads do no such thing, as how they are represented to every player does not allow the motives behind them to be objectively and absolutely revealed. If the motives cannot be seen, then reads based on them are baseless, by definition, since there would be no base and no reason to make any evaluations one way or another from them.


== Re: What if town always play randomly? ==


Finding which actions are town-sided can only be done if the players that make up town are already known. From the perspective of a town player on DP1, no action can be known to be pro-town or pro-scum prior to a flip. As such, you cannot base reads off of this – to base reads off of pro-town actions, you would have to first be able to read players to determine which actions are pro-town, and to do that you would have to have already established a standard to read people by, etc. to infinity. This is clearly absurd.


== Re: Begging The Question ==
“This is bossy's argument: "Town and mafia behave the same because town play randomly. Town play randomly because they cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors. Town cannot distinguish town behaviors from mafia behaviors because town and mafia play the same." “

It is a truth that, because of the very nature of town (being uninformed players), there is no solid basis for reads. This is not circular – my conclusion is based on this near-a-priori fact about the game. There is no justification for the idea that an individual townie having information regarding himself is enough for him to pass any judgements on the alignments of other players, and, if this is so, any such judgements must be random.

My opponent’s argument is predicated on the idea that “Town need not fake reads”. I have shown this to beg the question – for town to do anything other than “fake” (pull out of thin air) reads, they must first be able to read in the first place, which is absurd if the entire justification for reads even existing is that townies do not fake reads. It’s entirely circular. It doesn’t matter what town and mafia have as goals – what matters is if you’re able to distinguish between the actions each take to reach those goals. Since I have shown that Town acts randomly, distinguishment of this sort is impossible, and, as such, my opponent’s case collapses.

My opponent’s examples are irrelevant if he is not able to show a causal link between behavioral analysis and winning. He has only shown a correlation, which is not sufficient to rebut my arguments.


== Re: How to start D1? ==


If random events cannot be evaluated to determine whether they were caused by Town or Scum, no player would be able to react to them in any meaningful way. If there was an equal chance that a post was made by scum or by town, then for the responses to be non-random the only possibility is that players respond the same to town and scum posts, which is, in itself, damning for the idea of responses containing affiliation information. If players respond differently to town and scum posts, but had no way of finding out which was which, they would literally have to flip a coin to determine what their reaction would be. This is equally damning.


It doesn’t matter who people “think” are mafia – what matters is what they actually post, and the reasons for posting what they post are essentially random.


NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINA ZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI NAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZINAZI




Players
Roles
Graveyard


S-FM The Third Doctor
S-FM The Fifth Doctor
S-FM The Seventh Doctor
S-FM The War Doctor
S-FM The Ninth Doctor
S-FM The Tenth Doctor
S-FM The Eleventh Doctor
S-FM The Twelfth Doctor
Mafia
Mafia
Mafia
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Neutral
S-FM The Sixth Doctor: Executioner
S-FM The Second Doctor: Lookout
S-FM The Eight Doctor: Chauffeur
S-FM The First Doctor: Bodydouble
S-FM The Fourth Doctor: Coroner



QuickLinks
LINK TO SETUP (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/32759-S-FM-Prime-Minister-(Setup)-(13-Player))
Opening Post (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522508&viewfull=1#post522508)
Day One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522527&viewfull=1#post522527)
Night One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522941&viewfull=1#post522941)
Day Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523200&viewfull=1#post523200)
Night Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523685&viewfull=1#post523685)
Day Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=524060&viewfull=1#post524060)
Night Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525127&viewfull=1#post525127)
Day Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525191&viewfull=1#post525191)
Night Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525703&viewfull=1#post525703)
Day Five (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525764&viewfull=1#post525764)

[Rassilon]

Day Five

Day Five Ends at THIS TIME (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20151023T02&p0=136&font=cursive)

S-FM The Tenth Doctor Has been killed.
His role was: Doctor


Last Will
I was a Doctor. Still laugh that I was elected from my D1 and D2 posts. I guess I was the "Least shitty" decision or something.

That lynch was in part of my disbelief of the roles in play:
Chauffeur
Consort?
Mafia
Executioner
Coroner
Body Double
Doctor
Lookout
Bus Driver?
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

As you can see it is kinda silly and fucked off. Not suppose to com hunt but I could not help but very obviously know who Doc 4 was. He was playing strange as fuck. In the post game you will understand that and probably tell yourself "I woulda done the same". Like insanely so.. I was also a little frustrated with the town. Almost every player was half-assing and blew the day off. Maybe that bad lynch will get you guys fired up again for some good-ol scum hunting. Whoever your next PM is please give your own perspective to him. The level of gut reads and "This guy said this shit which I agree with so I am voting X" gives a town leader very little outside perspective to work with. With 4s flip there should be a ton of information to work with.

9 thinks a lot like I do but his level of participation bothers me. There are some very specific posts that could easily have come from an informed perspective. Every time he gets pressured he defaults to "This guy is more scummy than me" which almost made me vote on him. I decided not to only because [redacted]. Although I was still on the edge of trying to light a fire under his ass. That kind of play bothers the shit out of me. Justifying your lack of action with others actions is a shit play in my mind.

7 still looks scummy as hell but I kind of think he will flip citizen. I read it as more "Shit plays" than "Scum plays". He could still be scum but shortly after claiming BD he asked not to be protected in any way. It fits his cit claim today although it could have been hunting for the Protective role if he is scum.

11 is a mixed bag. I do not feel able to draw intention from his actions because he is playing 100% reactionary. It makes him very hard to read. I really should have lynched him instead of 4 but I still stand by my reasoning on 4.

Good luck getting anything out of War. I would be fucking shocked if he has read half the thread.

12th puts in a ton more effort than most players. Might make a good PM but he could still be Mafia and some of his reasoning I disagreed with here and there.

3rd Doc has just been vote parking on 4th day after day. Very odd the other day with the 8 and 9 trains running. He could have reason to want a coroner out of the game.

5th Doc is all over the place. I still lean scum when I read him.


Oh, And D1 I did not protect 6 because I did not town read him at all. He spent all his effort trying to get elected and trying to discredit anyone else he saw as a contender instead of scum hunting. I did however protect 4th doc and if the Chauffer had swapped 6 and 4 like he said he did
6 would not have died. This factor played into both 8 and 4 getting lynched. I am 90% certain that either 9 or 11 is scum.

Good luck guys : )

A New Prime Minister Must be elected by the end of the day,
Make sure you PM me your votes.

4

Doctor Dave had slept with one of his patients and felt really guilty.
No matter how much he tried, the sense of betrayal was overwhelming.
But every once in a while he'd hear an reassuring internal voice say, "Don't worry, Dave.
You aren't the first doctor to sleep with a patient and you won't be the last. Plus you're single. Just let it go."

But, invariably, the other voice would bring him back to reality by whispering, "Dave, you're a fucking vet."





Players
Roles
Graveyard


S-FM The Third Doctor
S-FM The Fifth Doctor
S-FM The Seventh Doctor
S-FM The War Doctor
S-FM The Ninth Doctor
S-FM The Eleventh Doctor
S-FM The Twelfth Doctor
Mafia
Mafia
Mafia
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Neutral
S-FM The Sixth Doctor: Executioner
S-FM The Second Doctor: Lookout
S-FM The Eight Doctor: Chauffeur
S-FM The First Doctor: Bodydouble
S-FM The Fourth Doctor: Coroner
S-FM The Tenth Doctor: Doctor



QuickLinks
LINK TO SETUP (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/32759-S-FM-Prime-Minister-(Setup)-(13-Player))
Opening Post (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522508&viewfull=1#post522508)
Day One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522527&viewfull=1#post522527)
Night One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522941&viewfull=1#post522941)
Day Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523200&viewfull=1#post523200)
Night Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523685&viewfull=1#post523685)
Day Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=524060&viewfull=1#post524060)
Night Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525127&viewfull=1#post525127)
Day Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525191&viewfull=1#post525191)
Night Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525703&viewfull=1#post525703)
Day Five (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525764&viewfull=1#post525764)

[S-FM Squiggly]

Okay well that clears my suspicions on ten.....
Damn, he shouldn't have won the election. We lost our Doc essentially D2.

Everyone Share your LW now.
Fifth-Contributes nothing for town. Was on nine instead of seven before his flip. The guy is just scum.
Seventh-Looks suspicious as hell, should be blocking this guy honestly and I could see him partnered with five..
Ten-The guy is moving forward discussion. Definitely making sure we have time to discuss everything, I think his vote on four was very questionable. If he is alive tomorrow, I think he is scum and we lost.
Ninth-This guy expects to be townread and everyone to read him as such. I get strong sense he is town, I can't see him aligned with anyone.
Third-Strongest townread, very aggro town. Open with thoughts, no way he is scum. Shocked he is still alive though, must be a reason for that. Gotta go back and check his reads.
War-Not contributing much, nothing much to say. Will be very irritated if he is 5s partner. Very much null read.
Twelfth-Like this guy, he is definitely town. I would say he should be next PM. Seems very on top of his game.

[S-FM Squiggly]

This is where we should have gone yesterday:
S-FM Seventh Doctor
7 is partnered with either 5 most likely or War.
I could see either, but we should lynch Seven today.

[S-FM Squiggly]

Also don't forget to vote for PM guys.
I would say either me or 12 for it.

[S-FM Squiggly]

My vote didn't count >.>
S-FM The Seventh Doctor

[S-FM The Third Doctor]

Hey guys. I had none feedback last night.

I can't say enough about how mad I am about the last two deaths. I hate being fucking wrong and 10 was my largest Town read the whole game :(

I have a conspiracy theory in my head that 4 was mafia that had himself Tailored, but given how firm in the day 4 was I feel like a post-death plan doesn't fit. I'm really going to have to reframe my view of things following 4s flip. Especially that no matter how shitty 7 looked a lot of my read on him was his interaction with 4.

Fuck everything if 4 was Tailored.

[S-FM The Third Doctor]

Everyone Share your LW now.

I leave all my thoughts in the day thread. My LW is simply claiming my role incase of Tailor and pushing my reads again.

- Last Will last I updated it, which was a while ago -
Incase of Tailor I was a Citizen.
I left everything in the day thread. 1 and 10 are my largest town reads, I won't go into why. 4 and 7 are my largest scum reads. 4 is CLEARLY using his day posts to devalue discussion while masking it as seeking discussion. Disregarding certain players, ignoring certain players, agreeing with clearly faulty logic and vote splitting.
7 is all around scummy and if it wasn't for 4's efforts on day 1 i'm confident we'd've gotten him lynched.

[S-FM The Third Doctor]

This game has so many fucking protectives though.

Chauffeur is a protective dodger. Escort/Consort. Body Double. Lookout is protective investigation. Doctor. Wtf host.

[S-FM The Third Doctor]

1 and 10 are my largest town reads, I won't go into why

this, btw, was because I read both of them as power roles.

[S-FM The Third Doctor]

which is funny, because the reason I wanted 10 to be PM ( thought he was sheriff) was so our mayor and sheriff could be protected by a doctor at once.

I'm so off point now you have no idea

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Ok, everyone, it's fairly clear that both 10 and 4 made not really good move. Yes, Fourth was annoying, but the more he talked the more his claim was believable.

Now that they both got their last wills, we need to get this sorted out. Follow Tenth's last will! He said in it that we should lynch Ninth or Eleventh. You don't want to dissappoint our former Prime Minister, right?

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Wish the pm would have told us who he intended to hammer.

I say that we vote 12 to be the new one.

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Wish the pm would have told us who he intended to hammer.

I say that we vote 12 to be the new one.

The problem is that I can't trust anything that Ninth says. Think about it - if somehow Twelfth turns up to be the mafia, then we'll lose straight away.

We have to be EXTREMELY careful when picking up next Prime Minister. We have to - because if we don't, the Mafia will do it for us. I do want to vote twelfth, but the "what if" scenario really bugs me.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Seven is indeed the way to go.

I wonder wtf the bus driver is doing.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Im also fine with lynching 5 today.

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

The main problem is that the main Mafia suspect in my eyes is you, Ninth.

You seriously think that I am Mafia? Think again. Don't listen to anyone else and think by YOURSELF. Look at Tenth's last will (and to a lesser extent, Fourth). Don't listen to 9 and 11 because Tenth considered them mafia with 90% probability.

[S-FM Buzzy]

As ten inferred in his last will, I am the last person in this game who writes substantial posts. Everyone else either keeps their cards close to their chest, or has no cards in the first place. Because of this, I implore you to read all my posts on this day very closely and carefully, because for day 5 I will be showing a lot of my hand for your scrutiny.

But not quite yet, however - first, I have some in-game errands I want to run, and basic strategies I want to explain:

We have 5 towns and 2 mafias remaining in this game. This means, for town to win, they need at least:

One mislynch, 5v2->4v2
Night Kill, 4v2->3v2

Correct lynch 3v2->3v1
Nightkill 3v1->2v1

Another correct lynch 2v1->2v0

This means we can only afford one mislynch from this point onwards

What do I want us to do for the first lynch?

I do not advocate that our first lynch for today is necessarily someone we have strong suspicions on - I advocate purely for a policy lynch. I want to make as many of you reveal your hands as possible. Of the people who do not:

A) Reveal their reads on everyone else, posting at least a few lines on each player
B) Reveal their role for everyone else, giving a summary of how they played their role and why
C) Reveal the lw they had / planned to have for tonight

I will choose one of you, and make it my life's purpose to get you lynched today.

I want cooperation, and I will sacrifice all the minor popularity I have amassed over these past couple days if I can force that cooperation. You have all done things highly scummy, and I can build a powerful case against any of you, on top of using your lack of cooperation in my attack. In other words, your ass will be hanged no matter how much the town distrusts/dislikes me by the end of today.

And, I will be very, very fickle with who I finally choose for my policy lynch. So if you think "oh, he hasn't followed those rules so I can get away with not doing it either", beware - because I may very well switch and start frying someone else's ass for the sadistic fun. And, even if I don't get to take my rage out on you today. I may dedicate my lw to a magnum opus against you for tomorrow's lynch. :-3

I am no hypocrite and I will also do the A,B,C,D above. However, I will rely upon the last will you will see tomorrow to tell you the full extent of my reads and ideas.

[S-FM Buzzy]

A) Reveal their reads on everyone else, posting at least a few lines on each player
B) Reveal their role for everyone else, giving a summary of how they played their role and why
C) Reveal the lw they had / planned to have for tonight


Woops, I forgot D), here :-3

D Reveal these things by the time there is 12 hours remaining or you will still be viable for policy lynch. And answer ALL questions you are asked honestly. With no bullshit. (unless it's details regarding who a protective will visit tonight)

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

As ten inferred in his last will, I am the last person in this game who writes substantial posts. Everyone else either keeps their cards close to their chest, or has no cards in the first place. Because of this, I implore you to read all my posts on this day very closely and carefully, because for day 5 I will be showing a lot of my hand for your scrutiny.

But not quite yet, however - first, I have some in-game errands I want to run, and basic strategies I want to explain:

We have 5 towns and 2 mafias remaining in this game. This means, for town to win, they need at least:

One mislynch, 5v2->4v2
Night Kill, 4v2->3v2

Correct lynch 3v2->3v1
Nightkill 3v1->2v1

Another correct lynch 2v1->2v0

This means we can only afford one mislynch from this point onwards

What do I want us to do for the first lynch?

I do not advocate that our first lynch for today is necessarily someone we have strong suspicions on - I advocate purely for a policy lynch. I want to make as many of you reveal your hands as possible. Of the people who do not:

A) Reveal their reads on everyone else, posting at least a few lines on each player
B) Reveal their role for everyone else, giving a summary of how they played their role and why
C) Reveal the lw they had / planned to have for tonight

I will choose one of you, and make it my life's purpose to get you lynched today.

I want cooperation, and I will sacrifice all the minor popularity I have amassed over these past couple days if I can force that cooperation. You have all done things highly scummy, and I can build a powerful case against any of you, on top of using your lack of cooperation in my attack. In other words, your ass will be hanged no matter how much the town distrusts/dislikes me by the end of today.

And, I will be very, very fickle with who I finally choose for my policy lynch. So if you think "oh, he hasn't followed those rules so I can get away with not doing it either", beware - because I may very well switch and start frying someone else's ass for the sadistic fun. And, even if I don't get to take my rage out on you today. I may dedicate my lw to a magnum opus against you for tomorrow's lynch. :-3

I am no hypocrite and I will also do the A,B,C,D above. However, I will rely upon the last will you will see tomorrow to tell you the full extent of my reads and ideas.

Well, I'll be short:

A) Out of all guys who are still here, 9 and 11 seem to be more scummy than anyone else, since they have been constanlty pushing for my lynch. 12 seems to be the last legit town here. Not sure about others. FOLLOW TENTH's LAST WILL!
B) I Already told you that I am citizen. While it was previosly acceptable to lynch me for what I did, in the current situation it does not. I managed to stay in this game despite all of that.
C) For my last will, I was going to tell you the same thing that I did in the last two days - I wanted to trick the mafia into targeting myself, making then to think that I am TPR.

I was well aware that the death of the real Body Double (if that role existe) would put everyone's attention on me. I was aware of what I am doing, and I am not regretting any of my actions.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Well, I'll be short:

A) Out of all guys who are still here, 9 and 11 seem to be more scummy than anyone else, since they have been constanlty pushing for my lynch. 12 seems to be the last legit town here. Not sure about others. FOLLOW TENTH's LAST WILL!
B) I Already told you that I am citizen. While it was previosly acceptable to lynch me for what I did, in the current situation it does not. I managed to stay in this game despite all of that.
C) For my last will, I was going to tell you the same thing that I did in the last two days - I wanted to trick the mafia into targeting myself, making then to think that I am TPR.

I was well aware that the death of the real Body Double (if that role existe) would put everyone's attention on me. I was aware of what I am doing, and I am not regretting any of my actions.

A) So then, apart from your extended suspicions on 9. Are your reads on everyone perfectly expressed by 10's last will? Apologies for being pedantic, but I want at least a line or two on EVERYONE.

B) So, as citizen, you attempted to attract mafia attention onto yourself and away from a potential PR? That is how you played citizen, as I understand it.

Thankyou for your cooperation.

[S-FM The War Doctor]

Sigh what did i miss.....

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Sigh what did i miss.....

Well, 10th turned into complete retard and lynched Fourth. I would have NOT complained if he would lynch me, but getting out Fourth of all people... this made things even more complicated.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Well, 10th turned into complete retard and lynched Fourth. I would have NOT complained if he would lynch me, but getting out Fourth of all people... this made things even more complicated.

you think 10 is a complete retard but you still want us to follow his last will?

S-fm the fifth doctor #5 is honestly my biggest scum read right now.

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

you think 10 is a complete retard but you still want us to follow his last will?

S-fm the fifth doctor #5 is honestly my biggest scum read right now.

Don't try to evade us. You're the one being scum. Flip your cards already.

S-FM The Ninth Doctor

[S-FM Buzzy]

Sigh what did i miss.....


you think 10 is a complete retard but you still want us to follow his last will?

S-fm the fifth doctor #5 is honestly my biggest scum read right now.

Will you comply to my request?

[S-FM Buzzy]

Don't try to evade us. You're the one being scum. Flip your cards already.

S-FM The Ninth Doctor

You've been so scummy this entire game. Noone's going to take what you say seriously if you don't at the very least respond to basic questioning. You may as well not bother posting if you cannot accomplish that.


A) So then, apart from your extended suspicions on 9. Are your reads on everyone perfectly expressed by 10's last will? Apologies for being pedantic, but I want at least a line or two on EVERYONE.

B) So, as citizen, you attempted to attract mafia attention onto yourself and away from a potential PR? That is how you played citizen, as I understand it.

Thankyou for your cooperation.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Will you comply to my request?

what request?

[S-FM Buzzy]

what request?

This:


As ten inferred in his last will, I am the last person in this game who writes substantial posts. Everyone else either keeps their cards close to their chest, or has no cards in the first place. Because of this, I implore you to read all my posts on this day very closely and carefully, because for day 5 I will be showing a lot of my hand for your scrutiny.

But not quite yet, however - first, I have some in-game errands I want to run, and basic strategies I want to explain:

We have 5 towns and 2 mafias remaining in this game. This means, for town to win, they need at least:

One mislynch, 5v2->4v2
Night Kill, 4v2->3v2

Correct lynch 3v2->3v1
Nightkill 3v1->2v1

Another correct lynch 2v1->2v0

This means we can only afford one mislynch from this point onwards

What do I want us to do for the first lynch?

I do not advocate that our first lynch for today is necessarily someone we have strong suspicions on - I advocate purely for a policy lynch. I want to make as many of you reveal your hands as possible. Of the people who do not:

A) Reveal their reads on everyone else, posting at least a few lines on each player
B) Reveal their role for everyone else, giving a summary of how they played their role and why
C) Reveal the lw they had / planned to have for tonight

I will choose one of you, and make it my life's purpose to get you lynched today.

I want cooperation, and I will sacrifice all the minor popularity I have amassed over these past couple days if I can force that cooperation. You have all done things highly scummy, and I can build a powerful case against any of you, on top of using your lack of cooperation in my attack. In other words, your ass will be hanged no matter how much the town distrusts/dislikes me by the end of today.

And, I will be very, very fickle with who I finally choose for my policy lynch. So if you think "oh, he hasn't followed those rules so I can get away with not doing it either", beware - because I may very well switch and start frying someone else's ass for the sadistic fun. And, even if I don't get to take my rage out on you today. I may dedicate my lw to a magnum opus against you for tomorrow's lynch. :-3

I am no hypocrite and I will also do the A,B,C,D above. However, I will rely upon the last will you will see tomorrow to tell you the full extent of my reads and ideas.


Woops, I forgot D), here :-3

D Reveal these things by the time there is 12 hours remaining or you will still be viable for policy lynch. And answer ALL questions you are asked honestly. With no bullshit. (unless it's details regarding who a protective will visit tonight)

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

I will reveal everything tomorrow. It's not lylo yet.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

I strongly suggest that all townies vote on #12 to become the Pm

[S-FM Buzzy]

I will reveal everything tomorrow. It's not lylo yet.

Excuse me, but I'm not familiar with what lylo stands for?

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Excuse me, but I'm not familiar with what lylo stands for?

Lynch or lose. It basicaly means that we have to lynch a scum or lose the game during that day.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Lynch or lose. It basicaly means that we have to lynch a scum or lose the game during that day.

Sorry, but I'm not making exceptions with who I pressure for reveal. There are certain PRs that it would be preferable for you to reveal tomorrow, but if I don't run things based off of equality, I will be accused of teaming and unintentionally misguide the town.

Besides, if I wait until Lylo, my policy lynch will be more or less meaningless, because I will be lynching based off of suspicion rather than policy.

Hence, I will threaten you with being a potential policy lynch for today if you do not reveal by the time there's 12 hours left. If you wanna reveal close to the deadline that's fine, but you're not getting away with not claiming until tomorrow.

[S-FM Buzzy]

If you could post whether or not you will be present for the end of the day, that would be greatly appreciated.

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

Hi.

[S-FM The War Doctor]

im at work on break ill get to this tonight

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

I will be voting seven for prime minister, honestly, I think that mafia has killed off all of the town-readable people other than me and 7.

Ofc you guys are gonna be leading on seven, but I'm not sure you're correct there.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

I will be voting seven for prime minister, honestly, I think that mafia has killed off all of the town-readable people other than me and 7.

Ofc you guys are gonna be leading on seven, but I'm not sure you're correct there.

So, you 2 are night chat buddies then? cool

[S-FM The War Doctor]

wow this game died while i was gone

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

I will be voting seven for prime minister, honestly, I think that mafia has killed off all of the town-readable people other than me and 7.

Ofc you guys are gonna be leading on seven, but I'm not sure you're correct there.

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I'm not fit to be Prime Minister right now. Just vote 12 as PM.

[S-FM Squiggly]

My paranoia is acting up.
If everyone is saying vote 12 for PM. It is making me nervous about him, maybe its nothing. Just something scum want me to be suspicious off, its freaking me out though.

[S-FM Squiggly]

wow this game died while i was gone

It has been dead for awhile now, without 10 or 4. Activity is dead.
I have asked for everyones last wills.

You mind giving it?

[S-FM The War Doctor]

It has been dead for awhile now, without 10 or 4. Activity is dead.
I have asked for everyones last wills.

You mind giving it?

give me a sec i told it to sj over skype

[S-FM The War Doctor]

here it is

"TOLD YOU SO, also {role here}"

[S-FM Squiggly]

here it is

"TOLD YOU SO, also {role here}"

Okay, that is extremely useful
You have any reads?

[S-FM Buzzy]

My paranoia is acting up.
If everyone is saying vote 12 for PM. It is making me nervous about him, maybe its nothing. Just something scum want me to be suspicious off, its freaking me out though.

Lol, someone has to be Prime Minister. And I'm more or less the only person who doesn't have a trail of haters berating my every action. Though that may change over the course of today. Please respond to the A,B,C? :D I'm about to do it now

[S-FM Buzzy]

here it is

"TOLD YOU SO, also {role here}"

So are you a PR?

[S-FM Squiggly]

Lol, someone has to be Prime Minister. And I'm more or less the only person who doesn't have a trail of haters berating my every action. Though that may change over the course of today. Please respond to the A,B,C? :D I'm about to do it now

I revealed my last will in the openning day, you obviously aren't reading the game closely.

My role I want to keep hidden, their is another PR floating around. We don't need to reveal them by doing a mass claim.

I gave you my reads as well.

[S-FM Squiggly]

I will reveal everything tomorrow. It's not lylo yet.

Their is no point in hiding your reads.
You don't have to tell us a role, but reads is a must.

You may think you are conf town, but if you are truly town you would share with us your opinion on everyone.

[S-FM The War Doctor]

why dont we just nominate me prim minister so i can die the next night

[S-FM Buzzy]

Citizen. Decided to lay kinda low while I could, but the rising inactivity in this game has demanded my presence more and more. And, as a citizen, I can say what I want and my life won't mean much. However, even with me here rambling, I'm still just talking into a black hole if noone cooperates. I'm very disappointed in the other towns who are still alive, apart from perhaps 1 or 2. They've been very uncooperative and shitty team members.

As I said yesterday, I didn't really have any lw yesterday. And I didn't bother adding anything last night because ten would so certainly be the one attacked.

3 and 5) I think these two are towns, because their actions and thoughts seem very much like towns who aren't concentrating hard on what everyone writes. But it's only a grazing thought - a weak thought.

7) For a citizen, he is incredibly uncooperative. I could understand if he was a PR, but his aversion to questioning makes no sense as a simple citizen. Especially one who thinks "the mafia are trying to get me lynched! z0mg!" So my suspicions are high.

9) His roleclaim will probably add an entire new perspective to all his actions and all he has said, so I want that until I formulate a full opinion.

11) Noone has been roleblocked since n1. I wrote a long post on d4 going on at length about the implausibility of there being a roleblocker who roleblocked 11 n1 and then never roleblocked again. But his actions seem townish. Suspicious.

War) For the few things he's said and done, he's been extremely suspicious in all of those things. And I have a horrible feeling he's reading a lot more than he lets on, which makes me feel really unsettled. High suspicion.

So I guess I'm cleared from my own Policy Lynch. :P

[S-FM Buzzy]

I revealed my last will in the openning day, you obviously aren't reading the game closely.

My role I want to keep hidden, their is another PR floating around. We don't need to reveal them by doing a mass claim.

I gave you my reads as well.

I saw the insightful last will and reads. I was interested in the roleclaim. I guess it's pretty easy for me as a citizen to sit here and expect you to cough up, but I can assure you that, while it may fuck you in the ass, the town will be very grateful for your PR claim.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Their is no point in hiding your reads.
You don't have to tell us a role, but reads is a must.

You may think you are conf town, but if you are truly town you would share with us your opinion on everyone.

Agreed.

[S-FM The War Doctor]

S-FM The Twelfth Doctor

Ive decide who i want to lynch. i Just looked at VC

[S-FM Squiggly]

S-FM The Twelfth Doctor

Ive decide who i want to lynch. i Just looked at VC

This needs heavy explaining, like now.

[S-FM Squiggly]

Quite a few of us are here, we should be having more discussion.
Here are roles we know are left in game:

Escrot/Consort
Bus Driver/Chauffer

[S-FM Squiggly]

Was anyone bussed last night?

[S-FM Squiggly]

Was anyone bussed last night?

Or roleblocked.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Quite a few of us are here, we should be having more discussion.
Here are roles we know are left in game:

Escrot/Consort
Bus Driver/Chauffer

Well, we don't KNOW there's an escort/consort. We've just heard there is from one person on n1. Anyway, I had no feedback.

[S-FM Buzzy]

And, eleven, you were Based Ten's second choice for yesterday's lynch. Your worry as PR shouldn't be attracting mafia right now, your worry as PR should be not letting the town lynch be wasted on you. I said claiming may fuck you in the ass, but it will probably save your ass. Because, as well as wanting to lynch someone viable for Policy Lynch, I also ought to try to finish the work Ten left unfinished.

[S-FM Squiggly]

And, eleven, you were Based Ten's second choice for yesterday's lynch. Your worry as PR shouldn't be attracting mafia right now, your worry as PR should be not letting the town lynch be wasted on you. I said claiming may fuck you in the ass, but it will probably save your ass. Because, as well as wanting to lynch someone viable for Policy Lynch, I also ought to try to finish the work Ten left unfinished.

I will not claim unless its LYLO or I am at L-1. That is my own policy on the matter.

[S-FM Buzzy]

I will not claim unless its LYLO or I am at L-1. That is my own policy on the matter.

Only if you're at L-1? Well, L-1 doesn't kill as far as I'm aware. But, even if you do accidentally end up on L-0, you definitely won't be a wasted lynch.

S-FM The Eleventh Doctor

Stand by for ISO on 11.

[S-FM Squiggly]

I am having flashbacks to yesterday.
So many crappy posts....so many faulty reasoning.

12 you have turned into the new number 4.

Congratulations.

[S-FM Squiggly]

I am having flashbacks to yesterday.
So many crappy posts....so many faulty reasoning.

12 you have turned into the new number 4.

Congratulations.

If you didn't realize, this is not a compliment, this is a extreme downgrade.

[S-FM Buzzy]

I am having flashbacks to yesterday.
So many crappy posts....so many faulty reasoning.

12 you have turned into the new number 4.

Congratulations.

It's cool, if I'm just another shitty 4 that will be reflected in how hesitant the town is to lynch you. Just counter my terrible Doctor 4 level reasoning and you'll be fine :D

[S-FM Squiggly]

It's cool, if I'm just another shitty 4 that will be reflected in how hesitant the town is to lynch you. Just counter my terrible Doctor 4 level reasoning and you'll be fine :D

No they won't, you realize scum have 2 votes right?
If you are town, you convince one other town to vote me. They could speedlynch me, right?

[S-FM Squiggly]

Especially if I am at L-1 and I claim a PR.

[S-FM Buzzy]

No they won't, you realize scum have 2 votes right?
If you are town, you convince one other town to vote me. They could speedlynch me, right?

Oops! *shrugs* I'm a bad counter! I guess if you want to stick to your "I won't reveal until L-1", you can reveal just as the other 2 mafia put their vote on you, and then quickly claim so that I take my vote off before another townie hammers! Or, it's almost like your rule is completely arbritrary, as a town, because, with the other two mafia votes, you are essentially already on L-1.

But, as I said, I want to Policy Lynch today, and you will make one juicy Policy Lynch in terms of leads, game perspective, and so forth! So, even if you do tragically pass away, and we have to say goodbye to your insightful reads, the town shall continue brave and strong!

[S-FM Squiggly]

Oops! *shrugs* I'm a bad counter! I guess if you want to stick to your "I won't reveal until L-1", you can reveal just as the other 2 mafia put their vote on you, and then quickly claim so that I take my vote off before another townie hammers! Or, it's almost like your rule is completely arbritrary, as a town, because, with the other two mafia votes, you are essentially already on L-1.

But, as I said, I want to Policy Lynch today, and you will make one juicy Policy Lynch in terms of leads, game perspective, and so forth! So, even if you do tragically pass away, and we have to say goodbye to your insightful reads, the town shall continue brave and strong!

We do not have space a for a policy lynch at this time, are you insane?

[S-FM Buzzy]

We do not have space a for a policy lynch at this time, are you insane?

Did YOU not read?


As ten inferred in his last will, I am the last person in this game who writes substantial posts. Everyone else either keeps their cards close to their chest, or has no cards in the first place. Because of this, I implore you to read all my posts on this day very closely and carefully, because for day 5 I will be showing a lot of my hand for your scrutiny.

But not quite yet, however - first, I have some in-game errands I want to run, and basic strategies I want to explain:

We have 5 towns and 2 mafias remaining in this game. This means, for town to win, they need at least:

One mislynch, 5v2->4v2
Night Kill, 4v2->3v2

Correct lynch 3v2->3v1
Nightkill 3v1->2v1

Another correct lynch 2v1->2v0

This means we can only afford one mislynch from this point onwards

What do I want us to do for the first lynch?

I do not advocate that our first lynch for today is necessarily someone we have strong suspicions on - I advocate purely for a policy lynch. I want to make as many of you reveal your hands as possible. Of the people who do not:

A) Reveal their reads on everyone else, posting at least a few lines on each player
B) Reveal their role for everyone else, giving a summary of how they played their role and why
C) Reveal the lw they had / planned to have for tonight

I will choose one of you, and make it my life's purpose to get you lynched today.

I want cooperation, and I will sacrifice all the minor popularity I have amassed over these past couple days if I can force that cooperation. You have all done things highly scummy, and I can build a powerful case against any of you, on top of using your lack of cooperation in my attack. In other words, your ass will be hanged no matter how much the town distrusts/dislikes me by the end of today.

And, I will be very, very fickle with who I finally choose for my policy lynch. So if you think "oh, he hasn't followed those rules so I can get away with not doing it either", beware - because I may very well switch and start frying someone else's ass for the sadistic fun. And, even if I don't get to take my rage out on you today. I may dedicate my lw to a magnum opus against you for tomorrow's lynch. :-3

I am no hypocrite and I will also do the A,B,C,D above. However, I will rely upon the last will you will see tomorrow to tell you the full extent of my reads and ideas.

Ten was never a Policy Lyncher - Never liked the idea of using up a lynch to beat people into shape. Too democratic 'n' shit for that. He got some good lynches, but, as a result, this town has become too lax. He was too soft with you. We have one mislynch left. I wish to set the record straight that your lack of cooperation will be punished. As a town, and even as a PR, it is more beneficial for you, 11, to cooperate, because of the reasons I have already stated. And to not cooperate, would be untownlike.

Insane? Maybe a little crass. But that's good. This game needs a bit more spark :)

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Now this is getting interesting.

Keep the votes as they are right now. I want to hear more discussion between you. I'm leaning to shift my vote to Eleventh unless he filps his cards up. We don't have much to lose, even if he reveals his role card. There are no protective roles left, after all.

Bus Driver? No way. Someone probably just lied about being bussed - or Mafia used a trick.

[S-FM Squiggly]

Now this is getting interesting.

Keep the votes as they are right now. I want to hear more discussion between you. I'm leaning to shift my vote to Eleventh unless he filps his cards up. We don't have much to lose, even if he reveals his role card. There are no protective roles left, after all.

Bus Driver? No way. Someone probably just lied about being bussed - or Mafia used a trick.

Of course you would be willing to.
You are just waiting for a town to change over, then you and your buddy will lynch me.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

#11 is not lying about beeing bussed

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Of course you would be willing to.
You are just waiting for a town to change over, then you and your buddy will lynch me.

Who is that "buddy" you are talking about?

I know who your "buddy" is. It's Ninth, right?

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

I will be voting seven for prime minister, honestly, I think that mafia has killed off all of the town-readable people other than me and 7.

Ofc you guys are gonna be leading on seven, but I'm not sure you're correct there.

This just looks like heavy bussing tbh.

When #5 flips mafia he wants us to Misslynch #7 after.

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Ok, then how about this? What if it's #5 and #11? What do you think? Is that possible?

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Ok, then how about this? What if it's #5 and #11? What do you think? Is that possible?

It's possible but i know that 11 is not lying about his bus claim.

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

I know that I received feedback about being bussed as well. So what do you think actually happened? What did #8 and why?

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

I know that I received feedback about being bussed as well. So what do you think actually happened? What did #8 and why?

And that was during the time when everyone thought that I was the Body Double. Who were #8's targets and why?

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

And that was during the time when everyone thought that I was the Body Double. Who were #8's targets and why?

Night 1 he swapped #6 with someone else.

There has to be a 2nd swapper. Im suspecting a 2nd chaf becouse of the bus drivers refusal to claim and the lack of feedbacks.

[S-FM The Seventh Doctor]

Night 1 he swapped #6 with someone else.

There has to be a 2nd swapper. Im suspecting a 2nd chaf becouse of the bus drivers refusal to claim and the lack of feedbacks.

Uh... who is that "someone else"? Maybe someone refused to claim about being bussed?

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

Uh... who is that "someone else"? Maybe someone refused to claim about being bussed?

Could be either me #4 or #11. I guess we will never know who was really bussed with #6

[S-FM Buzzy]

Man, wanted to wait until 12 hours was up. I don't like violence. Well, I guess the only way now is the hard way. I'll start writing the ISO post on 11. Vote as you wish.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Oh I do have a reason to do that. I was targeted by someone the night before, right?
Not sure what was Mafia's intent, but I believe that at that time they were strongly convinced that I could actually be a Body Double.

If 7 comes back:

7, you stop answering EVERYTHING halfway through. So Let's see if this half answer will be more useful than the others - What did you mean by being targeted? I never understood what you meant by that. Is this a roleblocked soft-claim or something?

[S-FM Buzzy]

This altered post talks about the strange roleblocker who roleblocked 11 once and then never roleblocked again:

"The most common explanation for why only one person would claim roleblocked at the start is that the roleblocker is a consort who spends many days nightkilling rather than roleblocking. However, this explanation simply does not hold up under scrutiny.

4 is coroner, which means there 99% is a tailor/actress/janitor (let's be honest SuperJack probably won't troll with a graveyard deceptionless save like that). Furthermore, this deception hasn't done much as of yet, unless they've been throwing away night visits pointlessly. This in turn means they will probably be responsible for the night kill on most days (and maybe even every day if the other maf is an investigative).

So, this graveyard deception ruins the theory of there being a consort who is alternating between night killing and not night killing - if the deception is doing all the kills instead.

Another explanation is the escort/consort isn't roleblocking some days. Well, why would a hypothetical rber (if they get the chance every night) NOT rb some nights? (baring in mind inactives are replaced) An escort would want to keep prodding around for mafia kill blocks and a consort would like the opportunity to hinder the town while looking like an escort. So it simply doesn't make sense.

There is a chance that the hypothetical rber is rbing every night but someone simply isn't confessing to being rbed, but I can't think of any motivation someone would have for refusing to reveal they were rbed. If a maf does it to try and screw with town, the escort can simply reveal and be like "this fuck is trolling us! Get him!". Perhaps a consort is rbing a town and the town doesn't want to say it. But that doesn't make much sense either.

In conclusion, if we believe 4 to be coroner, the rber cannot logically exist, unless some dodgy shit is going on and people are playing in ultra-weird ways."

[S-FM Buzzy]

While this wall of text looks scary, I feel some of you (particularly 3 and 9) may find it quite useful. As well as being a comprehensive ISO on 11, this post looks at 11's interactions with 3, 4 and 9. So, with the incredibly awkward roleblock claim from 11 as our backdrop, let's proceed with the ISO:

I'm going to be mostly ignoring d1. He shitposted and said a few hollow things that tried to sound towny:

"Im well aware that we do indeed need to vote, and as such I will do so carefully." - post #71, probably one of the most empty things said the entire game.

He says this as well: "I feel the need to let today's events transpire and not push any lynches. It's day one afterall and we're all looking for early scumtells. I prefer my day 1 to be trolltastic." But then, when 6 inquires as to how trollish shitposting reveals scumtells, he literally contradicts himself by saying: "No doubt I'm not looking for scum tells at this point in time. We may as well point fingers at each and every one of our selves now.". He literally just said he wanted a trolltastic d1 for scumtells, then, when someone asks how a trolltastic d1 reveals scumtells, he then says he's not looking for scumtells! He literally thoughtlessly modified what he said just to seem like he wasn't talking complete bullshit!

Beyond that, there's not much worth mentioning in d1, though, apart from the fact he actually seemed to like 4 on this day.

d2 was the notorious roleblock claiming day

There's two major things that happen today, as well as the obvious rb claim.

-His shift away from 4 (after buddying him at the end of d1/start of d2), and a suspicion on 7
-His shift towards 3 and 9.

He shifts away from 4 because (apparently) 4 revealed to be coroner inappropriately, despite the fact that 4 claimed coroner in the context of a lynch train against him. 4 literally says/implies this in the post he claims coroner. In fact, 4 had already softclaimed coroner, so this wasn't much of a surprise. Yet, 11 derpily asks "Why would you reveal you are coroner now? {newline} Your chances of getting attacked just went up." This is then hastily followed with: "Yeah that claim is completely out of place. There is no reason from a town perspective to do it. Kind of shifting my read on four a bit by that claim."

That's so WEIRD. 11 suddenly starts discrediting 4 over something incredibly silly. 4 had good reason to reveal coroner considering he had already softclaimed and there was a lynch train on his ass. No wonder 4 opposed 11 for so long. Was 11 literally so derpy that he didn't see this? Regardless, let's look at the effects it has (or, at the very least, may have been intended to happen).

A) By doing this switch, he breaks down the minor ties he had built with 4, meaning he will no longer be seen in a bad light by 9 and 3 (who seemed to dislike 4 at this point).
B) He discredits the coroner, turning people away from him.
C) He manages to take attention away from the lynches on 9 and 3 by instead focusing on 4 and 7.
D) He makes everyone suspect there's some kind of team between 3,9 and 11.

This is probably the basis for why 4 thought 3, 9 and 11 were on a team - 11's strange buddying with 3 and 9.

In fact, throughout the day he makes numerous references to how he feels 3 and 9 are "his strongest town reads" despite both of them attracting a lot of negative attention. I wouldn't say this is an indication of an alliance. It seems 11 wanted to get on 9's and 3's side and make some friends this day. This may seem counterintuitive for a scum to do, but as you will see by d3, this had very positive effects for him.

d3, 4's 3,9,11 alliance theory. And 8's lynching.

The day begins with 11's questioning of 8's PR, and him lying about being switched.

"You claiming Body Double?", "We already know you are some kind of power role. That isn't in question anymore. Lookout returned positive results on you. And their is no Drug Dealer so it isn't fake.", exc.

Now, I hate to go for the generic bussing argument, but that is definitely the effect of this. 11's upfront PR hunting almost makes 8 look like an innocent victim in this scenario, and greatly attracts 4 to 11 and away from 8 later, intentionally or unintentionally.

Also, 11's lie about being switched ("So I have no feedback from last night.") is definitely something he wasn't planning on confessing too. He defends his lie by saying: "Wanted to see how many claims we had on that." But this makes little sense - he could have just not said anything and let other people claim Driven, and then claimed Driven himself. It was only because 8 admitted to switching him that 11 in turn had to admit to lying. That's dodgy as fuck. Yet again, 11 is focusing on scrambling the night feedback and promoting confusion while screwing himself over as little as possible.

Then, of course, we have the notorious theory of 4: That 3, 9 and 11 are in a league together. Obviously, because of 11's behavior, it's clear to see how this could have happened. And, on this day we see the positive effects of 11's buddying - he's made 3 and 9, players who already looked unfortunately scummy, look a thousand times worse by framing them with his buddying - all while making 3 and 9 think 11 was on their side.

And, this is indeedshown in 11's posts after 4's conspiracy is unveiled. "Can I buy pot from your dealer?", "Well if you are on nine. It must be 8. S-FM The Eight Doctor" He simultaneously grows the crevice between 4 and 3,9,11 (again discrediting coroner) AND keeps the hate on 3 and 9 going and 3 and 9's fondness of 11 growing. All this while bussing his partner.

In Conclusion

Obviously, I'm not going to claim things with certainty. But 11 has been doing a lot of lying about his night feedback and a lot of shady diplomacy with 3 and 9 to have a negative effect on the town. This is what makes me think he's so scummy. If you've made it to hear, thankyou for reading.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

This vote count looks pretty silly.

Does anyone actually think #5 is town? Why are we letting lurkers get away so easily?

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

S-FM The Twelfth Doctor

That cit claim looks scummy af.

Reading up now, sorry for my inactivity!

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

Only if you're at L-1? Well, L-1 doesn't kill as far as I'm aware. But, even if you do accidentally end up on L-0, you definitely won't be a wasted lynch.

S-FM The Eleventh Doctor

Stand by for ISO on 11.

i lmaoed

11 is the only other person I'd town read.

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

This vote count looks pretty silly.

Does anyone actually think #5 is town? Why are we letting lurkers get away so easily?

Actually...

S-FM The Ninth Doctor

You don't get another free pass.

[S-FM Buzzy]

S-FM The Twelfth Doctor

That cit claim looks scummy af.

Reading up now, sorry for my inactivity!

Out of curiosity, aren't you citizen also?

[S-FM Buzzy]

This vote count looks pretty silly.

Does anyone actually think #5 is town? Why are we letting lurkers get away so easily?

I'm trying to punish the lurkers with a policy lynch. But it doesn't work if everyone lurks anyway xD. Guess I have a lot of choice with my one, measly vote!

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

Out of curiosity, aren't you citizen also?

I see no reason to claim right now.

[S-FM Buzzy]

I see no reason to claim right now.

So you are citizen, then. :P

[S-FM Squiggly]

I am here to discuss stuff, whats up?

[S-FM Buzzy]

I am here to discuss stuff, whats up?

What's your view on War?

[S-FM Squiggly]

What's your view on War?

Lazy town. Or possibly lurking scum.
Kind of doubt the latter, but I am not completely ruling it out.

[S-FM Squiggly]

i lmaoed

11 is the only other person I'd town read.

What exactly makes me town in your eyes?

[S-FM Buzzy]

What exactly makes me town in your eyes?

Viewpoint loyalty. He's liked you and 7 for days, and he hasn't done much thinking since then. So he's slowly grown loyal to his point of view.

[S-FM Squiggly]

We have what, 24 hours left?
Their should be more discussion and a little more consensus on a lynch.

Come on.

[S-FM Squiggly]

We have 2 hours left, and nobody is on.
You have to be kidding me.

Everyone, get on Seven now. If he isn't mafia you lynch me tomorrow.

[S-FM Buzzy]

We have 2 hours left, and nobody is on.
You have to be kidding me.

Everyone, get on Seven now. If he isn't mafia you lynch me tomorrow.

I think the only person we can agree on is War, tbh.

S-FM The War Doctor

Jeez, this town is like a GRAVEYARD! >.>

[S-FM Squiggly]

I think the only person we can agree on is War, tbh.

S-FM The War Doctor

Jeez, this town is like a GRAVEYARD! >.>

The apathy is contagious >.>
S-Fm The War Doctor

[S-FM Buzzy]

The apathy is contagious >.>
S-Fm The War Doctor

Lol, let's hope 2 people bother to come on today xD

[S-FM Squiggly]

The mafia are definitely within this group: War Doctor, 5, and 7.
If its War I will have to relook at both 5 and 7. I am starting to rethink 5 cause he is buddying everyone and its very odd behavior.

Extremely scummy, and nonsensical. I don't understand his motivations.

[S-FM Squiggly]

12 if War flips scum, who would you think his ally is?
He has shown no clear associations, so I am unsure.

If he is town, again that won't tell us anything.

The more I think about it, the more I don't like this lynch.
It feels horrible from a information gathering standpoint.

[S-FM Buzzy]

12 if War flips scum, who would you think his ally is?
He has shown no clear associations, so I am unsure.

If he is town, again that won't tell us anything.

The more I think about it, the more I don't like this lynch.
It feels horrible from a information gathering standpoint.

That's because it is horrible from an information gathering standpoint. But the only lynch that would really inform us would be your lynch. We'd find out whether or not there really is a rber, we'd find out your true motivations in many of your actions, and we'd have a wide range of interactions to go off of.

It may sound melodramatic, but town probably would have won the game if you had simply died yesterday. Hence, I am still disappointed that ten chose to lynch 4 instead of you, honestly. I don't know what kind of reads he expected us to gain from 4's flip. "Everyone says 4 is a crazed conspiracy theorist, and everyone was right, daym."

However, you're the only other person in this game who is active, soooo :-3

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

Wish granted.

War is a scumread but I would like to wait.

I will change my vote to 11 because he seems like the person who I'd rather lead, as its more between 12 and 11 today.

[S-FM Buzzy]

Wish granted.

War is a scumread but I would like to wait.

I will change my vote to 11 because he seems like the person who I'd rather lead, as its more between 12 and 11 today.

Wait, so are you not lynching War then? Who are you voting to lynch?

[S-FM Squiggly]

Wish granted.

War is a scumread but I would like to wait.

I will change my vote to 11 because he seems like the person who I'd rather lead, as its more between 12 and 11 today.

You still have no provided a last will or reads list.

[S-FM Squiggly]

We have one hour left.

Come on people, get on. Discuss. Vote.
Do something.

This is annoying as all hell.

[S-FM Squiggly]

12 is on, have any more thoughts to contribute?

[S-FM Buzzy]

Well this sucks. Perhaps this no-vote will shake the town up a bit though.



At least I can leave behind some long-ass last will that noone will read when the Mafia kills me tonight xD

[S-FM Squiggly]

Well this sucks. Perhaps this no-vote will shake the town up a bit though.



At least I can leave behind some long-ass last will that noone will read when the Mafia kills me tonight xD

Considering the trend of mafia, I wouldn't be suprised if you are killed if you are town.

[S-FM Buzzy]

12 is on, have any more thoughts to contribute?

You'll see it all in my lw anyway. Sucks I didn't get to at the very least know your roles to inform my lw. But meh! *shrugs*

[S-FM Buzzy]

Considering the trend of mafia, I wouldn't be suprised if you are killed if you are town.

Oh yeah, I definitely will. They've eliminated every PM and every active player because, ultimately, they can. If anything, I should probably be lynched if I'm not killed, as it will be a complete trend breaker! XD.

Anyway, I'm gonna go to bed. Cya post-game!

[S-FM Squiggly]

I am claiming now. Hopefully this will save 12 (In case he is town).

I am Escort.

[S-FM Squiggly]

N1 Went to block 9, was blocked myself. And bus driven.
N2 Went to block 2, don't like how he was so neutral with all of his reads. He was killed >.>
N3 Blocked 7. He didn't mention any feedback, and nobody said anything about a driver today. Odd, he could be a 2nd Chauffeur? I see no reason not to confirm the block. Should have pushed him harder >.>
N4 Blocking 7. Lets see if anyone claims driven feedback, if not. 7 is Chauffeur.

S-FM The Seventh Doctor

[S-FM Squiggly]

I guess I should have claimed earlier, I thought I get 7 lynched without claiming.
I am probably going to die tonight.

Lynch 7 tomorrow.

Hopefully 12 is not his ally.

[S-FM The Third Doctor]

I really find 2 Chauffeurs to be heavily unlikely. But I will lay my vote down incase and wait for a response to potentially explain the lack of feedback claiming.

If anyone was wondering I'm basically mentally out of this game given 10ths death and my inaccuracy on 4. Pretty soul crushing.

S-FM The Seventh Doctor

[S-FM The Third Doctor]

Considerations. Our day just got very inactive without 10 and 4 around. The least posting players that have still managed to vote are 7 and War. Then myself. Then 5th. I believe the scum most likely want to neutralize activity and will be within the bottom posters.

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

S-FM The Seventh Doctor

There has been a 3rd claim day 1 (and 2 if I'm not mistaken)

I dont mind doing this.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

The seventh doctor

Well, he is voting on me.

[S-FM The Ninth Doctor]

S-fm the seventh doctor

[The Godfather]

S-FM The Seventh Doctor has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


S-FM The Seventh Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/22245') (4 [L-0]): S-FM The Eleventh Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526498'), S-FM The Ninth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526520'), S-FM The Fifth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526506'), S-FM The Third Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526502')
S-FM The Ninth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/22247') (1 [L-3]): S-FM The Seventh Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=525975')
S-FM The Twelfth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15951') (1 [L-3]): S-FM The War Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526217')

[Rassilon]

Night Five

Night Five Ends at THIS TIME (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20151024T02&p0=136&font=cursive)

S-FM The Seventh Doctor Has been Lynched.
His role was: Citizen

S-FM The Fifth Doctor Is Now President of the United Kingdom

Last Will
Well, I had to lie with my role, because I was sure that if I could save myself from being lynched, I can dupe the mafia into killing a completely useless role... WIFOM is the best thing, right? Sorry, Mafia, you're in bad luck this time!


Pending Awesomeness.





Players
Roles
Graveyard


S-FM The Third Doctor
S-FM The Fifth Doctor
S-FM The War Doctor
S-FM The Ninth Doctor
S-FM The Eleventh Doctor
S-FM The Twelfth Doctor
Mafia
Mafia
Mafia
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Neutral
S-FM The Sixth Doctor: Executioner
S-FM The Second Doctor: Lookout
S-FM The Eight Doctor: Chauffeur
S-FM The First Doctor: Bodydouble
S-FM The Fourth Doctor: Coroner
S-FM The Tenth Doctor: Doctor
S-FM The Seventh Doctor: Citizen



QuickLinks
LINK TO SETUP (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/32759-S-FM-Prime-Minister-(Setup)-(13-Player))
Opening Post (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522508&viewfull=1#post522508)
Day One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522527&viewfull=1#post522527)
Night One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522941&viewfull=1#post522941)
Day Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523200&viewfull=1#post523200)
Night Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523685&viewfull=1#post523685)
Day Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=524060&viewfull=1#post524060)
Night Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525127&viewfull=1#post525127)
Day Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525191&viewfull=1#post525191)
Night Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525703&viewfull=1#post525703)
Day Five (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525764&viewfull=1#post525764)
Night Five

[Rassilon]

Day Six

Day Six Ends at THIS TIME (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20151026T02&p0=136&font=cursive&csz=1)

S-FM The Twelfth Doctor Has been killed.
His role was: Citizen

Last Will
(If 5 is not a baddie, which he probably, hopefully isn't)

This town doesn't seem very fond of long explanations using sophisticated reasoning. They want a blunt message from a town who probably knows what they're talking about. So here it is:

LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11 LYNCH 11

After that:

LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR LYNCH WAR

Pretty sure 3,5,9 aren't baddies given their play and attitudes. I could go further but noone would read it so there's little point :P.


22243,3
3


I like cake.





Players
Roles
Graveyard


S-FM The Third Doctor
S-FM The Fifth Doctor
S-FM The War Doctor
S-FM The Ninth Doctor
S-FM The Eleventh Doctor
Mafia
Mafia
Mafia
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Town
Neutral
S-FM The Sixth Doctor: Executioner
S-FM The Second Doctor: Lookout
S-FM The Eight Doctor: Chauffeur
S-FM The First Doctor: Bodydouble
S-FM The Fourth Doctor: Coroner
S-FM The Tenth Doctor: Doctor
S-FM The Seventh Doctor: Citizen
S-FM The Twelfth Doctor: Citizen



QuickLinks
LINK TO SETUP (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/32759-S-FM-Prime-Minister-(Setup)-(13-Player))
Opening Post (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522508&viewfull=1#post522508)
Day One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522527&viewfull=1#post522527)
Night One (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=522941&viewfull=1#post522941)
Day Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523200&viewfull=1#post523200)
Night Two (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=523685&viewfull=1#post523685)
Day Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=524060&viewfull=1#post524060)
Night Three (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525127&viewfull=1#post525127)
Day Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525191&viewfull=1#post525191)
Night Four (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525703&viewfull=1#post525703)
Day Five (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33296-S-FM-161-Prime-Minister?p=525764&viewfull=1#post525764)
Night Five
Day Six

[S-FM Squiggly]

Okay, I want you all to hear me out.
I am not actually Escort.

I did that to protect 12, they saw through that apparently and I was wrong about Mafia.
Please think carefully before you vote.

What I know now is it can't possibly be 5, if it was the game would have ended.

I am leaning for War but I could be wrong.....

I just don't see it being 3 or 9. But its at least one of them....

[S-FM Squiggly]

Completely forget that the mafia is killing all the active players.
Well this game is gone to complete shit.

Honestly its my fault for us losing this game town, if I get lynched because of this, I understand.
Well played to the mafia, they did good. I think I sabotaged this game a little by lying about my information.

I don't regret it though, I should have claimed Escort earlier so you PL me yesterday instead of claiming yesterday.

Bad moves on my part.

[S-FM The Fifth Doctor]

S-FM The Ninth Doctor

gg

[The Godfather]

S-FM The Ninth Doctor has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


S-FM The Ninth Doctor ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/22247') (3 [L-0]): S-FM The Fifth Doctor (Mayor) ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526713')

[SuperJack]

The Mafia Have Won.

The Fifth Doctor, Member of the Mafia, Now leads the United Kingdom.
NIGHT ACTIONS SPREEDSHEET (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mpta79KLYoUdz31dAgthCzAUG1NtYFeg29Kmeb817cM/edit?usp=sharing)



Account
Role
COM


S-FM The First Doctor
S-FM The Second Doctor
S-FM The Third Doctor
S-FM The Fourth Doctor
S-FM The Fifth Doctor
S-FM The Sixth Doctor
S-FM The Seventh Doctor
S-FM The Eight Doctor
S-FM The War Doctor
S-FM The Ninth Doctor
S-FM The Tenth Doctor
S-FM The Eleventh Doctor
S-FM The Twelfth Doctor
Bodydouble
Lookout
Citizen
Coroner
Chauffeur
Executioner - Target Fourth
Citizen
Chauffeur
Citizen
Sheriff
Doctor
Mafioso
Citizen

Iced_Monopoly
AppleyNO
Rachyl/Slaol
Frog
Funce/MatZed/Stealthbomber16
Toadette
Fragos
DarknessB
RVLG/Ika
Numbertwo
Helz
Fred/FireBringer
yzb25




Host Thoughts:

Setup
A few things I decided to do when Hosting the Setup:

- Players generally assume that the scum team will not have duplicated roles
- Players generally assume that if X role exists so will Y/Z/W role.

Including two Chauffeurs meant that the Scum team would leave traces of their only power role. Yet it greatly de-powered other roles.
Sheriff- Weakened with Chauffeurs, but targeting someone who was not swapped confirms their alignment,
Doctor- Very Weakened with Chauffeurs
Lookout- Very Strong, this would catch the Drivers
BodyDouble- Gives a good Prime Minister an extra day to live
Coroner- Weakens town with belief of deception roles
Executioner- Target was Coroner, since their Win Con was very difficult to achieve in hindsight

The Prime Minister Votes
I was disappointed in both town and Scum. Not much Co-ordination in the Town or the Scum team.
Leaving the Election down to random between 2 scum 1 town on the first and last election.
The non-votes really got to me. There where so many none votes, I was initially going to punish them.
But without clear consequences in the setup, and the fact it was a small game. I felt that I could not do this. So had to let this slide.

The Scum Team
Night Chat - http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/mZsHkyJkv5F7

Initially, they where bummed up with replacements. Yet they managed to dig their way through this (3 replacements in total just in the scum team)
They played a risky move Night one, which cost them one of their chauffeurs.
Yet their night kills, targeting the players that contributed the most lead them to their victory. Along with the false and incorrect feedback they leaked into the day.
They played very risky moves and nearly got caught. But by that point all the main town players where dead. Leaving the Town with small-voiced players.
Stealth was replaced in, yet I felt he wasn't really involved much as it was mostly Firebringer controlling him.

The Town
The Town had some great players, who posted some quality posts, I felt there where quite a few quality posts this game and some players do deserve a mention. Yet it made them targets, and unfortunately, most of the Citizens never stood up for town, they posted less, interacted less and let the TPR die. Citizens in this game should of tried the best to stand for Prime Minister, as well as being a meat shield for TPR.
I think the Coroner impacted the game quite strongly, especially since it was frog and he has a loud voice. It was quite a big distraction for town.
I was disappointed in Ika as a replacement. I had hope that he could change the swing of things since I had heard he could play well when he wants to. But as soon as he started playing he told me he already predicted a loss for town.

MVP
There where some great town players this game, and they played very well. They where active and voice good posts.
But I feel that I'm going to award it to FireBringer
He really lead the Scum Team to victory, he placed in false feedback in the right places to cause chaos when needed, but also to be missed later on.
He specifically targeted players that where Town-Voiced, Fire was active in this game, but he also actively lurked at the right moments to avoid the limelight until it was to late.
He told me he feels guilty at the times he lurked, but sometimes its a valid strategy and he used it at the right times. But MVP is up to you guys.

Overall
I enjoyed hosting the game, it was mostly an Experiment and there is a list of changes I will make to it, if I hosted it or similar game again.

-Day 1 Is A Lynch Day
Day 1 turned out to be troll and un-coordinated. With PM votes Private and no lynch. There was not really enough reason for Day 1 other than your fake English accents.

-Pm Votes scale with game size
Later in the game, 3 votes became quite overpowered for the game. If hosted again, the votes would scale with amount of live players

-Lack of Pm Vote roles
If creating another game, I may include some roles that effect/check votes. Votes where private and this was a mayor advantage to scum.

-Buff Neutrals
Looking back at the neutrals, their wincon was difficult to achieve, I would most likely give them a few optional vests, for example. Executioner can either choose they receive a vest, or their target (secret) or perhaps a role/wincon change if they fail their current one.

-Town Killing Role
Problem was, without a Town killing role, a Scum PM would most likely of cost the game. Next time I may include a Bruiser Type Vigilante.

-Clearer Role Cards
Some questions where raised, some information missing/restrictions not their and the OoO unclear with the Roleblock. I would generally improve this area.

-Non Anon
I felt being on other accounts, people where less likely to post as much, and with the multiple Com posts if ended up hindering more than anything.

Special Mention

Iced_Monopoly & yzb25
They where the First & Twelfth Doctor. These players seem to be quite new to forum Mafia only playing a few game so far.
But I am completely overwhelmed with the posts they both made.
They posted quality posts, remained active in the game and I considered them to be very good players to watch.
I highly recommend these people in future games, and look forward to playing with/against them.
I do hope we get more players like you two. Thank you for playing.


EDIT

If you have any comments/suggestions about my hosting feel free to post/PM
I'm open to criticism and just looking to become a better host.

[Firebringer]

This was a fun game to be part of.

Like I said to SJ in skype chats with him, I felt like I really didn't deserve this victory because I was employing some lurking activities to avoid much suspicion and pressure.

I thought alot of town played really well and I really thought that 10 (Helz) was going to lynch me or 5 other day.

Was shocked Frog got lynched.
I guess he over played it a bit and that got Helz nervous.

[Toadette]

I was going to win day 2

:(

[Slaol]

Toadette

Given immediate taking of the role they needed as PM I think Toadette played the best within the time given. Mafia misshot on her but it was done 10/10 as it needed to be by Toadette. Everyone else fucked up in some way

[Slaol]

I was going to win day 2

:(

Agreed

[Toadette]

Toadette

Given immediate taking of the role they needed as PM I think Toadette played the best within the time given. Mafia misshot on her but it was done 10/10 as it needed to be by Toadette. Everyone else fucked up in some way

By golly my boy! Care to join me for tea and crumpets?

[Slaol]

By golly my boy! Care to join me for tea and crumpets?

Is that English for Netflix and Chill?

[Firebringer]

Mafia honestly should have organized votes for Prime Minister.

Look at the votes:

Day 1:
Eleventh-2 (8, 1)
Four-2
Tenth-1
Sixth x2 (toad double voted self)
Seven-1

Day 2:
Eleventh-3 (1, 9, 5)
Tenth-3
First-2
Twelth-1

I was tied for vote on all three days we had an election >.>

[DarknessB]

I have tons of comments on this game, which I'll try to divide up into several posts. I've raised some of these points already in death chat, so apologies for any repetition.

Overall: I enjoyed this game a lot. SuperJack did a good job at creating an fun set of roles for the different teams with an interesting special rule, the PM position. I agree that both the Town and scum could have much more effectively coordinated their votes -- i.e. the closeness of the votes resulted in some very odd outcomes along the way. Most notably, #5 being elected PM when most players had him pegged as scum was pretty bad overall. I'll hit on that point more later on, but it was a huge surprise to me and made the end of the game rather anti-climactic.

[DarknessB]

Quality of Game

Oh boy, here we go... The lurking / anti-Town behavior in this game was very bad overall IMO. In terms of Town, #10 posted a lot and was clearly Town-sided, #2 had quality posts before he died early, #1 had some good Town posts (escalating as the game went on), #12 tried to come in and the end and rally the Town, #4 had good intentions, but got caught up in his overarching theory of the game. The rest of the town was pretty lacking honestly, either in terms of quantity (if you don't post, you can't help Town -- directed mostly at War) or quality (I don't understand why #9 never got more into discussion despite being Sheriff, and #7 was quite anti-Town and disruptive toward the Town's scumhunting with his red herrings).

If I were Helz (#10) or AppleyNO (#2), I'd be pretty unhappy about the efforts of the other Town. You guys got a huge break with Appley's Lookout LW implicating me. Beyond that, the Town didn't accomplish much of anything. I knew #10 mislynched #4, but #4 put himself in that position with all the tunnelling on his theory and inadvertent buddying of me. #1 had his moments and #12 tried at the end, so I can't really fault them, especially as they are both new and arguably outplayed several other more experienced players. I just don't understand why the Citizens didn't try to be more helpful. Instead, they ended up creating distractions and didn't leverage their numbers at all. It just wasn't a Town that really pushed hard. You guys made it very easy for us to pick our targets -- we just targeted the active, helpful players. Once #10 was dead, the Town was leaderless. We should all strive to up the level of our play and not depend on others to scumhunt for us.

[Firebringer]

I can see a lot of town players being annoyed by the town players who dragged this game down a peg or two because of their play.

Quite a few players played this game very smart as town:
10(Helz), 2(Appley), 1(Iced), 12(Yzb25), and 4 (Frog).

If town pressured for more activity and was more proactive with trying to get everyone to talk and cause more discussion this game could have ended in a complete town stomp after Darkness got lynched.

Both me and Stealth looked extremely bad. I think only thing good about either of us was that I was distancing myself from 5 by scum reading him and 5 was buddying everyone to make himself look scummy (which is not really a good strategy but it helps me look a little better by comparison)

[Firebringer]

Helz I think was the best town player in this game.

So I am going to vote him.

Helz

[DarknessB]

Lurking

Doubling down on this point for emphasis. Come on guys -- it's not fun when half the game isn't posting or trying. I get people have other obligations, real life shit comes up, etc., but please try. This goes for both the Town as well as the Mafia too. If you don't have time to post at least minimally, please don't sign up for games. It wrecks the experience for the rest of us to have a blank spot essentially in the game who isn't going to chat or participate. It's also a bit insulting to the rest of us who are trying hard and who are often your teammates in these games. Specifically:

Stealth, come on dude -- you were basically ika Jr. in this game. It's getting really bad in a lot of your recent games. You really need to step up your play man. I'm not the only one who is thinking this as well -- many of us feel the same way. You've played much better than this in the past -- it's just not fun to be on your team when you're barely posting, super erratic, and essentially have to run a newbie gambit, because you won't put the time in the game to make yourself seem Town-aligned. We really need more from you man -- this trend is VERY bad and starting to grate on many of us in recent games (PM, Camp Mafia, Firebringer's last game, etc.). You're much better than this, but PLEASE try harder and be more engaged in future games. We want to enjoy playing with you, but that's decreasing every game now with the inactivity / ika Jr.-like behavior.

ika, I'm well-aware that nothing I say on this point is going to get through to you. At the end of Camp Mafia, you assured me that your lurking / inactivity style was more indicative of your scum play than of your Town play. I also get that you were Citizen in this game so you didn't have any night feedback to provide to the Town. But really man, you TOTALLY phoned this game in. You were barely around and didn't provide any leads aside from posting for 15 minutes and abruptly voting me. To add insult to injury, many of your posts were of the following construction: "Sigh, what did I miss" and "ok". When we've only played 8 pages of the game and you're already asking for summaries, it comes off lazy man. Many of us are trying to put effort into this game and it's just not cool that you can't pay attention to the game. Same goes for the PM voting. My understanding from SuperJack is that you tried to vote for yourself on the last day of voting, which is prohibited by the game. That's how the voting resulted in a tie and Stealth won. If you had cast any valid vote, #5 wouldn't have been the PM and the Town might have had a chance. Come on man -- you're capable of far more than this if you try. Do you really want people to see you sign up for a game and not want to play? Because many of us are to that point unfortunately.

[DarknessB]

I can see a lot of town players being annoyed by the town players who dragged this game down a peg or two because of their play.

Quite a few players played this game very smart as town:
10(Helz), 2(Appley), 1(Iced), 12(Yzb25), and 4 (Frog).

If town pressured for more activity and was more proactive with trying to get everyone to talk and cause more discussion this game could have ended in a complete town stomp after Darkness got lynched.

Both me and Stealth looked extremely bad. I think only thing good about either of us was that I was distancing myself from 5 by scum reading him and 5 was buddying everyone to make himself look scummy (which is not really a good strategy but it helps me look a little better by comparison)

The Town needed to do a better job policing its own for contributions. Helz was doing a decent job at that when he was PM, but the wheels came off completely after he was killed. I know some of that has to do with player-particular meta, but the odd players other than #1 (Iced) and #11 (Firebringer) contributed virtually zilch to this game. #3, #5, #7, #9, and War were basically null reads if not scum leaning in terms of their posting styles. #7 almost got himself lynched on Day 1, #9 almost got himself lynched and never shared any information, War completely phoned in the game (covered above). Really not good and even worse because this is a seasoned group of players. We're all capable of much better honestly.

[DarknessB]

MVP

Going on the principle of best player on the winning team other than absolutely off-the-wall play by someone else, I gotta give this to Firebringer. He was squishy enough to avoid being lynched despite everyone suspecting him based on his odd claims / gambits in places. Had Helz lynched him instead of #4, I think it would have been a very different game. That said, Fire also had to manage #5 (Stealth) well who was quasi-AFK for much of the game. Needing to come up with most of the scum strategy himself after I died, Fire carried the team to victory. Therefore, he has my MVP vote.

Firebringer

Aside from Fire, the only other MVP candidate would probably be Helz (based on trying to manage the Town). If he hadn't mislynched Frog, I think he'd be right up there.

[ika]

ika, I'm well-aware that nothing I say on this point is going to get through to you. At the end of Camp Mafia, you assured me that your lurking / inactivity style was more indicative of your scum play than of your Town play. I also get that you were Citizen in this game so you didn't have any night feedback to provide to the Town. But really man, you TOTALLY phoned this game in.

disagree, i read the first few pages and stealth was scum based on the first few post. also add in that i did not let up on him after, im fine with what i did


You were barely around and didn't provide any leads aside from posting for 15 minutes and abruptly voting me. To add insult to injury, many of your posts were of the following construction: "Sigh, what did I miss" and "ok". When we've only played 8 pages of the game and you're already asking for summaries, it comes off lazy man. Many of us are trying to put effort into this game and it's just not cool that you can't pay attention to the game.

when i replace in i care little on reading, i will skim the first few pages and then go from there. Given the fact that stealth jsut OMGUS and dicredit me i was well in on ramming his lynch.


Same goes for the PM voting. My understanding from SuperJack is that you tried to vote for yourself on the last day of voting, which is prohibited by the game. That's how the voting resulted in a tie and Stealth won. If you had cast any valid vote, #5 wouldn't have been the PM and the Town might have had a chance.

That one is entirely me not knowing self voting for prime is allowed. if you red my sig it should sum up my thoughts about it


Come on man -- you're capable of far more than this if you try. Do you really want people to see you sign up for a game and not want to play? Because many of us are to that point unfortunately.

I already get enough of that as is so it does very litt for me

i will however point out thing that you apparently did not take into account:

my repalce in posting was very straigtfoward and based on the few pages pegged your allie
called out that tailor was not existing
also predicted scum win based on the general flow of the game

so ya i am fine with my play here

[ika]

you can focus on all te negative dark but if you dont even aknowlage the things i did point out i wonder why i shoudl care

im open to improve to those who want to apporach me, but belittling me and and going "ya you suck and why dont you improve" does not help and would make me more inclinde to reject it.

I play else where where i talk to people who do help me improve my game much more form what i once was

[DarknessB]

ika, given how experienced you are at Mafia, I have no doubt that you are able to make observations that other players might not be picking up on. That said, we both know that observations in one's head are worth nothing compared to results. If you really thought Stealth was scum, it would have been helpful for you to make a sustained pressured push on him. That requires a lot of posting and attempting to build a coalition around lynching him. There were a number of points in this game where there wasn't a clear lynch target and the Town could have gone in many different directions (#4, #5, #7, #8, #9, #11, or War).

I just don't see how you can be an effective Town player if you're not sharing your beliefs in detail and attempt to get the people lynched that you believe are scum. You might very well have had the right answers in your head, but if Mafia isn't just about solving the puzzle -- it's about convincing other people of your viewpoint and corralling the votes that you need to lynch the scum. I just don't see how you (or anyone for that matter) can accomplish that if you aren't posting at a much higher level of volume and detail than you have been.

Also, don't get me wrong -- this isn't intended to be focused on you specifically either. There were a number of Town players who didn't really contribute much to discussion and instead of helping the Town progress in its thinking, were either provide null reads or actually inhibiting the Town with odd gambits / distractions that made themselves look extremely scummy (#4, #7 and #9 in particular). I'm really going back to what SuperJack said in his post-game analysis -- you were replacing in and could provide a fresh perspective to the Town. Even though I was scum this game, it would have been great if you could have dived in more and really pushed what you were thinking. Instead, you made a couple of quick posts and then didn't post much for the rest of the game. The most you were posting is when we got into it during the game, lol.

Re: the posts asking people to catch you up, they just don't leave me with the greatest impression. I get that you needed a little time the first day after you subbed in to catch up, but you barely posted after that day, and after #10 died, it was a crucial lynch day without any clear target. You posted the same type of ask for a recap instead of digging into the game yourself and pushing on #5. If you had aggressively pushed #5, you might have very well got him lynched. I would have hoped you did so, in terms of helping the Town and playing to the best of your ability. I just don't think we get that without a certain volume of posts, given Mafia is a consensus-building game (at least for the Town who needs to gather votes to lynch the scum).

Look, this isn't at all intended to be an indictment on you. I could provide just as much constructive criticism in terms of #3, #4, #5, #7, and #9 (and I have so for #5). It's just to say, if you had identified the scum, why didn't you push harder and post more to get them lynched? You don't gain a lot of Town credibility if you're not actively participating.

[Slaol]

#3 played fine. He just happened to not cope with #4 very well and it was inhibiting to both in many ways.

[Yukitaka Oni]

ika, given how experienced you are at Mafia, I have no doubt that you are able to make observations that other players might not be picking up on. That said, we both know that observations in one's head are worth nothing compared to results. If you really thought Stealth was scum, it would have been helpful for you to make a sustained pressured push on him. That requires a lot of posting and attempting to build a coalition around lynching him. There were a number of points in this game where there wasn't a clear lynch target and the Town could have gone in many different directions (#4, #5, #7, #8, #9, #11, or War).

I just don't see how you can be an effective Town player if you're not sharing your beliefs in detail and attempt to get the people lynched that you believe are scum. You might very well have had the right answers in your head, but if Mafia isn't just about solving the puzzle -- it's about convincing other people of your viewpoint and corralling the votes that you need to lynch the scum. I just don't see how you (or anyone for that matter) can accomplish that if you aren't posting at a much higher level of volume and detail than you have been.

Also, don't get me wrong -- this isn't intended to be focused on you specifically either. There were a number of Town players who didn't really contribute much to discussion and instead of helping the Town progress in its thinking, were either provide null reads or actually inhibiting the Town with odd gambits / distractions that made themselves look extremely scummy (#4, #7 and #9 in particular). I'm really going back to what SuperJack said in his post-game analysis -- you were replacing in and could provide a fresh perspective to the Town. Even though I was scum this game, it would have been great if you could have dived in more and really pushed what you were thinking. Instead, you made a couple of quick posts and then didn't post much for the rest of the game. The most you were posting is when we got into it during the game, lol.

Re: the posts asking people to catch you up, they just don't leave me with the greatest impression. I get that you needed a little time the first day after you subbed in to catch up, but you barely posted after that day, and after #10 died, it was a crucial lynch day without any clear target. You posted the same type of ask for a recap instead of digging into the game yourself and pushing on #5. If you had aggressively pushed #5, you might have very well got him lynched. I would have hoped you did so, in terms of helping the Town and playing to the best of your ability. I just don't think we get that without a certain volume of posts, given Mafia is a consensus-building game (at least for the Town who needs to gather votes to lynch the scum).

Look, this isn't at all intended to be an indictment on you. I could provide just as much constructive criticism in terms of #3, #4, #5, #7, and #9 (and I have so for #5). It's just to say, if you had identified the scum, why didn't you push harder and post more to get them lynched? You don't gain a lot of Town credibility if you're not actively participating.
Indeed that the one who created this game did mention that this game require skillful at talking and debate each other a lot to prepare experience for the children >)o.o)v so basically when Ika quiet, it's a sign of the original mafia game that the machine such as computer, phone, etc... Ruining the original idea for the game because Ika can complete silence without caring much about conversation and play like in the Starcraft (quiet and do something, if lynch because of quiet then rage quit and start the new game, didn't even learn any skill)
- So overall: Mafia game is not good for media >_>

[ika]

ika, given how experienced you are at Mafia, I have no doubt that you are able to make observations that other players might not be picking up on. That said, we both know that observations in one's head are worth nothing compared to results. If you really thought Stealth was scum, it would have been helpful for you to make a sustained pressured push on him. That requires a lot of posting and attempting to build a coalition around lynching him. There were a number of points in this game where there wasn't a clear lynch target and the Town could have gone in many different directions (#4, #5, #7, #8, #9, #11, or War).

I actataly stated my reasons for thinking hes scum sevral times in point format. The intial thought of it was very intuition based. the more he went at me though the more convinced i was


I just don't see how you can be an effective Town player if you're not sharing your beliefs in detail and attempt to get the people lynched that you believe are scum. You might very well have had the right answers in your head, but if Mafia isn't just about solving the puzzle -- it's about convincing other people of your viewpoint and corralling the votes that you need to lynch the scum. I just don't see how you (or anyone for that matter) can accomplish that if you aren't posting at a much higher level of volume and detail than you have been.

I know, i make that to people all the time, you can be right on every aspect but if you cant convince its moot. You should realzie by now most of mythoughts come from nothign more then guts and intuition. I have no clear way of just showing it i just "know" it


Also, don't get me wrong -- this isn't intended to be focused on you specifically either. There were a number of Town players who didn't really contribute much to discussion and instead of helping the Town progress in its thinking, were either provide null reads or actually inhibiting the Town with odd gambits / distractions that made themselves look extremely scummy (#4, #7 and #9 in particular). I'm really going back to what SuperJack said in his post-game analysis -- you were replacing in and could provide a fresh perspective to the Town. Even though I was scum this game, it would have been great if you could have dived in more and really pushed what you were thinking. Instead, you made a couple of quick posts and then didn't post much for the rest of the game. The most you were posting is when we got into it during the game, lol.

I did post my inital thought but they got rapidly overlooked. My busrt posting was basicly my thoughts on the game. After that it was more of trying to get people to work together but it didnt work out and nobody really tried to gie me a breif summary or work with that i exactly put out


Re: the posts asking people to catch you up, they just don't leave me with the greatest impression. I get that you needed a little time the first day after you subbed in to catch up, but you barely posted after that day, and after #10 died, it was a crucial lynch day without any clear target. You posted the same type of ask for a recap instead of digging into the game yourself and pushing on #5. If you had aggressively pushed #5, you might have very well got him lynched. I would have hoped you did so, in terms of helping the Town and playing to the best of your ability. I just don't think we get that without a certain volume of posts, given Mafia is a consensus-building game (at least for the Town who needs to gather votes to lynch the scum).

90% of games i play/repalce i ask for summarys. same goes with many other players i play with. it should take no more then 5 mins for a player to give a rundown of the game and keything i should be looking for. Its also a good way for me to start interacting with someone and hopefully work with them.


Look, this isn't at all intended to be an indictment on you. I could provide just as much constructive criticism in terms of #3, #4, #5, #7, and #9 (and I have so for #5). It's just to say, if you had identified the scum, why didn't you push harder and post more to get them lynched? You don't gain a lot of Town credibility if you're not actively participating.

I identified one and i ran a lynch on them, after that i started to fall ebhind due to work. I kept asking people to try to keep me in and interact with me, cus as odd as it sound that majorlyhow i get my reads is based on an interaction with me. When I dont get that i have little to get out of it.

[Slaol]

I will be supplying this conversation as evidence why no Mafia member deserves MVP. Rather that their victory was handed to them by the combined forces of 9 being a bit too full of himself and 3 and 4 butting heads into oblivion.

[10/24/15, 12:50:59 AM] Slaol: did you kill the Body double or 10?
[10/24/15, 12:51:09 AM] DarknessB: #10
[10/24/15, 12:51:17 AM] DarknessB: the BD sucked I guess
[10/24/15, 12:51:36 AM] Slaol: wut
[10/24/15, 12:51:45 AM] DarknessB: the BD died after #10 did
[10/24/15, 12:52:00 AM] Slaol: did they?
[10/24/15, 12:52:02 AM] DarknessB: yea
[10/24/15, 12:52:02 AM] Slaol: what
[10/24/15, 12:52:16 AM] Slaol: ?
[10/24/15, 12:52:26 AM] DarknessB: the order of kills was #6, #2, #10, #1
[10/24/15, 12:52:36 AM] DarknessB: after bussings
[10/24/15, 12:52:41 AM] DarknessB: that's who we in factk illed
[10/24/15, 12:52:45 AM] DarknessB: 1 was the Body Double
[10/24/15, 12:52:50 AM] Slaol: 1 is dead in the grave before 10
[10/24/15, 12:52:54 AM] DarknessB: oh, is he?
[10/24/15, 12:52:57 AM] Slaol: yea man
[10/24/15, 12:53:02 AM] DarknessB: lol one sec


Firebringer even says here that his victory was not deserved.


This was a fun game to be part of.

Like I said to SJ in skype chats with him, I felt like I really didn't deserve this victory because I was employing some lurking activities to avoid much suspicion and pressure.

I thought alot of town played really well and I really thought that 10 (Helz) was going to lynch me or 5 other day.

Was shocked Frog got lynched.
I guess he over played it a bit and that got Helz nervous.

Toadette is the only player that actively put themselves in the position to win of their own play. And of Fire's own statement he didn't deserve the win. You can not deserve 'best player in the game' if you didn't even deserve the victory you lucked into.

[ika]

toadett

i dont disagree with it overall, she nearly had it but lost due to an unlcky fault

[Slaol]

fix your vote plz

[ika]

i think what would of made scums more intresting is if both bussed but then lied about who they really bussed

OK my preview post is really fucked up aslo

[DarknessB]

I will be supplying this conversation as evidence why no Mafia member deserves MVP. Rather that their victory was handed to them by the combined forces of 9 being a bit too full of himself and 3 and 4 butting heads into oblivion.

Mind you, #1 and #10 were killed after I was lynched so I wasn't in the conversations re: night kills at that point, lol.

[Slaol]

Mind you, #1 and #10 were killed after I was lynched so I wasn't in the conversations re: night kills at that point, lol.

Earelephant. The primary point is that Fire doesn't deserve a win, much less an MVP. Toad' for president.

[DarknessB]

i think what would of made scums more intresting is if both bussed but then lied about who they really bussed

OK my preview post is really fucked up aslo

We were doing that a bit at the beginning (both bussing) which confused the Town a lot, in terms of all the random bussing allegations and theory that someone was withholding their bussing feedback (really, the dead player was for the first two nights). However, I think claiming we were Bus Drivers, and lying about who we bussed would have been a huge gambit, especially if the Townies figured out there were a number of other TPRs floating around (like Frog who admitted he was Coroner pretty quickly and #7 who lied about being Body Double). We would have opened ourselves up to Chauffeur allegations by doing that potentially.

[Helz]

I have to say I really enjoy the game. Superjack did a badass job hosting and the roles he stuck in the game had me wracking my brain some days trying to tear through them. It was very clever to step away from the community's constant poor assumptions like that.

I feel that Firebringer deserves MVP. He did a good job staying right in line with the large group of low preforming town and seeded misinformation while effectively busing his team. Others put more effort into the game than him but all the plays he made had a real impact.

His name is ɹǝbuıɹBǝɹıF damnit Firebringers new name?

I can say I was also impressed with a few players. We had some new faces I would love to play with again and some old ones that tried radical new play styles. I feel I flat out don't deserve MVP for 2 reasons-
1, I hammered Darkness but for the wrong reasons. I should have remembered I healed 4 so his claimed night targets had to be a lie. I still got him from reads but I had the information for that lynch to be an absolute situation. I just half ass dropped the ball
2, I ended a day early with the lynch on Frog. I still think that lynching frog was a great move on my part with the information I had. I read a lot of his plays correctly which I lynched him for, I just misread the intention behind them. In the past I have had trouble reading Frog but after talking to him I was on point in quite a few ways this game. My mistake was ending the day early. I should have drawn it out to see if it would draw out some participation and forced more interaction from lurky players.

Also @Numbertwo- That day I hammered Frog did you have a peek on 11? I noted the connection between you suggesting 11 was BD (Which you crumbed hard D2) and saying there could be 2 Chauffeurs in the game.


so ya i am fine with my play here
Bro, I like you as a person. We go way back and all. But if you are legit happy with your performance in this game I am probably going to start replacing out of any game you replace into. Its not personal. I am just looking for a different game experience and I believe your play consistently pulls games away from that experience I enjoy. Its probably just part of the game difference between MS and SC2Mafia. I can imagine in 240 hour days your play style would fit well with their low post count and all.

[DarknessB]

Bro, I like you as a person. We go way back and all. But if you are legit happy with your performance in this game I am probably going to start replacing out of any game you replace into. Its not personal. I am just looking for a different game experience and I believe your play consistently pulls games away from that experience I enjoy. Its probably just part of the game difference between MS and SC2Mafia. I can imagine in 240 hour days your play style would fit well with their low post count and all.

Helz's pace observation is a very good point. On SC2Mafia, we're used to 24-48 hour game days, which means a certain level of posting is required in order to keep discussion moving forward. With MafiaScum, I imagine it's very different given the 10 day (240 hour) game days -- i.e. a much more limited / slower post count works better there given the comparatively large amount of time to fill. Personally, I've logged far more SC2 mod game time so I'm used to a much faster pace than either -- really, needing to make a decision within 2 minutes as opposed to a day or 10 days. That's part of the reason I tend to be a more active poster in FM games.

In any event, the duration of our game days is something to keep in mind in terms of figuring out the right amount of quality posts needed to have productive days. I would hope that even ika realizes his typical volume of posts in SC2Mafia FMs typically isn't enough to be persuasive given the SC2Mafia site meta. I.e. you have to spend a lot of time establishing your Town credibility (lots of quality observations, reads, questioning of other players, etc.) before players are going to trust that you are Town and listen to you. At least, that's how it seems to me.

[ika]

Given this is my starting site, the points you bring up are kinda funny to say.

*shrugs*

[DarknessB]

Given this is my starting site, the points you bring up are kinda funny to say.

*shrugs*

Sure, I just feel like you have to hit people over the head a bunch of times to get results here. In a 24-48 hour game day, that means a decent amount of posts to corral the coalition you need for a lynch. In the FM games I've played here, I just haven't seen many lynches led by players who haven't been posting aggressively. Otherwise, your thoughts get lost in the mix / drowned out, especially if scum is trying to muddle discussion or other players are posting heavily as well.

[Fragos]

Uh... Who voted 5th as the mayor? Can you explain?

[Orpz]

I accidentally deleted Fragos's post because I saw it when I came home and I was like "wait a second this game is Anon accounts"

It has been undeleted.

carry on

[DarknessB]

Uh... Who voted 5th as the mayor? Can you explain?

In the Day 5 PM vote, there was a three way tie with each candidate receiving one vote. #5 voted for #11, #11 voted for #5, #9 voted for #12, and the rest of the Townies didn't vote (#3, #12) or their votes were tossed out because they voted for themselves which was not allowed (War). Because there was a three-way-tie between #5, #11, and #12, SuperJack randomed who would get the position and #5 won that randoming / was elected PM. Given the randoming, the Mafia ended up with a 2/3 chance of winning the Day 5 election, which was a very poor outcome for the Town given their majority at the time.

The same thing happened during the Day 1 PM vote where there was a tie between #11 (2 votes -- #5 and #8) and #6 (2 votes -- self-voted, allowed for Neutral). In this case, however, #6 won that randoming / was elected PM.

This is detailed in SuperJack's spreadsheet as well as his game wrap up post. It's also why he said that neither the Town nor the Mafia managed to come up with an effective strategy re: their votes.

[powerofdeath]

Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate!

All doctors are dead!

[Iced_Monopoly]

Hey, I'll keep this one brief. I really enjoyed playing this game, and was definitely entertained through my time participating and from viewing after my demise. Big shoutout to SJ for running a nice clean game, and being so active! Questions were answered in a timely fashion, and accidental posts from wrong accounts were quickly cleaned up, a good job all round :)

My MVP vote is going to Helz, he was quite a succesful PM in his brief reign. He encouraged a lot of the players to make informed descisions and reads, and kept the conversations on track and appropriate. Quite the good role model and player for us newbies too, ive learnt quite a bit from this game, and his plays in general. Shoutout to all of the active players who were contributing regularly too!

Helz

[Numbertwo]

Also @Numbertwo- That day I hammered Frog did you have a peek on 11? I noted the connection between you suggesting 11 was BD (Which you crumbed hard D2) and saying there could be 2 Chauffeurs in the game.




No, i checked #4 the night befeore and i found him to be innocent. i would have revealed it if you had decleared your intention to hammer #4.

[Helz]

No, i checked #4 the night befeore and i found him to be innocent. i would have revealed it if you had decleared your intention to hammer #4.

I knew that 4 was capable of much deeper reads and I saw an intentional effort to dodge providing those deep reads. I was correct in that and confident enough in it that I early hammered. It just turned out he was trying a new posting style and had is attention torn between multiple games to the extent that he was not able to dig into players as hard as he normally would have. I kinda laughed that you and I both came to the conclusion that 11 was a BD. It was partially your revealing these thoughts that really put me off to the prospect of lynching you. I highly doubt that a scum player would reveal that at such a critical time and it made me much more comfortable with you being town. I really hope you play more. If you take a more aggressive position in a game you could be scary good.

[Helz]

Given this is my starting site, the points you bring up are kinda funny to say.

*shrugs*

This is the issue- You can not be read. The last two games I have played with you the way you have played has made you an empty slot. There is no saying "This player is town because X" or "This player is scum because X" because you put zero effort into the game. When I end up with a player that does this there is no good solution. What am I suppose to do toss up a coin and say "Heads I policy lynch, tails I ignore him"? Sure this is your home site but you have stepped so far away from playing at all that you are getting backlash for your play style. When you do not read the thread, When you do not make constructive arguments as to why someone is scum/town, When you do not put effort into the game- you are not really playing the game. Please do not take this personally but it is a direct reflection of how you have been playing and the larger player base reflects this line of thought. Call it constructive criticism. Its something you can take to heart and improve on as a player. I bet you have played 10x the games I have and have a lot of potential value to bring to a game. You just never play at the level you are capable of.

[Stealthbomber16]

wtf 9 was sheriff

[Stealthbomber16]

My favorite part of the game:


#11: That is a horrible plan.
You look scummy as shit man.

You should openly support 7 for PM.
Say you are voting him, but you are actually voting me.

I will push myself as a PM candidate. They won't expect scum to do that.
If you support 7, they will see that as the scum pair, you and him.

I may push you and claim I roleblocked you last two nights, hence no extra busses.
Either we lynch you and I win PM or lynch 7 and still win PM and win.

I was then elected PM by random vote.

My MVP vote goes for whatever the heck firebringers new name is. He's changed it about 10 times now and I'm not about to start figuring it out.

Garuntee it though, next game, its on.

[Firebringer]

My favorite part of the game:


I was then elected PM by random vote.

My MVP vote goes for whatever the heck firebringers new name is. He's changed it about 10 times now and I'm not about to start figuring it out.

Garuntee it though, next game, its on.

I am horrible with planning.
I have learned this about myself.

Like first us attacking the Prime Minister Night 1, in theory could have been good but it was poorly executed, because we didn't coordinate our votes on a person for next prime minister.

Then that whole plan I came up for your defense? We never used it.

The whole plan about Escort? I nearly didn't use it, and then decided to claim I was blocking 7 instead of you.

This is the kind of planning I am good at:

Indy Ploy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndyPloy)


Also, I am not changing my name. Slaol, and the admins have been trolling me for days by constantly changing it for shits and giggles. It is getting annoying >.>

[Stealthbomber16]

I am horrible with planning.
I have learned this about myself.

Like first us attacking the Prime Minister Night 1, in theory could have been good but it was poorly executed, because we didn't coordinate our votes on a person for next prime minister.

Then that whole plan I came up for your defense? We never used it.

The whole plan about Escort? I nearly didn't use it, and then decided to claim I was blocking 7 instead of you.

This is the kind of planning I am good at:

Indy Ploy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndyPloy)


Also, I am not changing my name. Slaol, and the admins have been trolling me for days by constantly changing it for shits and giggles. It is getting annoying >.>

Firebringer

[Toadette]

Helz

[The Godfather]

Helz has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Toadette ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/24216') (1 [L-2]): Slaol ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526718')
Helz ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/10617') (3 [L-0]): Firebringer ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526732'), Iced_Monopoly ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526770'), Toadette ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526802')
Firebringer ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15644') (2 [L-1]): DarknessB ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526735'), Stealthbomber16 ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=526801')

[Firebringer]

That hammer tho.

[AppleyNO]

disagree, i read the first few pages and stealth was scum based on the first few post. also add in that i did not let up on him after, im fine with what i did



when i replace in i care little on reading, i will skim the first few pages and then go from there. Given the fact that stealth jsut OMGUS and dicredit me i was well in on ramming his lynch.



That one is entirely me not knowing self voting for prime is allowed. if you red my sig it should sum up my thoughts about it



I already get enough of that as is so it does very litt for me

i will however point out thing that you apparently did not take into account:

my repalce in posting was very straigtfoward and based on the few pages pegged your allie
called out that tailor was not existing
also predicted scum win based on the general flow of the game

so ya i am fine with my play here
That means you should not play Mafia with us since you do not understand the problem with your play.

[AppleyNO]

I am very upset with how this game went. Everyone seemed to either give up or not pay attention, which ended the game with a Mafia victory. How could anyone look at most of the play that occurred and deduce people were town? Like I was convinced 9 and 11 were the mafia until SuperJack told me in Dead Chat. I thought 4 was town until near the point I died. He just didn't take a step back and take new things into account.

I could continue, but I would mostly be shouting at a vacuum, anyway.

Good play from 6, 10, and 12. I am disheartened to see Ika turn into a super lurker.

HOW DO THESE POSTS ADD ANYTHING TO DISCUSSION?????????????????????


Sigh what did i miss.....


Im here if anyone wants to talk atm. i am about to make a call to a freind so I have little time


HI everyone checking in but about to pass wout. I ill be up tonight after work


wow this game died while i was gone

For Context, the following 2 are when 12 asked for the LW:

give me a sec i told it to sj over skype


here it is

"TOLD YOU SO, also {role here}"


why dont we just nominate me prim minister so i can die the next night

These are all clear instances where you had access to Sc2Mafia.com and instead of throwing out your opinion to the current conversation or adding any original thoughts, the town got this junk.

Toadette

[AppleyNO]

Sorry for stating it like it is. I came back because I wanted to play Mafia, and this was not the best welcome back game.

[DarknessB]

Sorry for stating it like it is. I came back because I wanted to play Mafia, and this was not the best welcome back game.

As a heads up, the quality of recent games has been all over the place, Appley. In terms of quality of play, there have been some really good ones lately (check out Firebringer's recent game which was very sharply contested by a number of players really putting a lot of effort into the game -- Frog, Helz, Toadette, RLVG, me, among others) and some subpar games for sure. I think this one was more in the subpar category due to all the anti-Town behavior and lack of cooperation. I wouldn't let that discourage you from playing more games though / reengaging with the site. Games are only as good as the players in them, and I think we could all step it up in some way or another. I completely agree with you though that certain players really need to up their activity levels in games or perhaps they shouldn't sign in the first place.

The glass half full side is that is a lot of new blood coming onto the site these days (such as #1 and #12) who have shown the ability to play well and are putting in the effort needed to help their faction. It's just a matter of getting the right group of players together for another S-FM. I think with some of our promising newcomers and some of our veterans who are engaged and trying hard, that we'll have better games in the future.

[AppleyNO]

As a heads up, the quality of recent games has been all over the place, Appley. In terms of quality of play, there have been some really good ones lately (check out Firebringer's recent game which was very sharply contested by a number of players really putting a lot of effort into the game -- Frog, Helz, Toadette, RLVG, me, among others) and some subpar games for sure. I think this one was more in the subpar category due to all the anti-Town behavior and lack of cooperation. I wouldn't let that discourage you from playing more games though / reengaging with the site. Games are only as good as the players in them, and I think we could all step it up in some way or another. I completely agree with you though that certain players really need to up their activity levels in games or perhaps they shouldn't sign in the first place.

The glass half full side is that is a lot of new blood coming onto the site these days (such as #1 and #12) who have shown the ability to play well and are putting in the effort needed to help their faction. It's just a matter of getting the right group of players together for another S-FM. I think with some of our promising newcomers and some of our veterans who are engaged and trying hard, that we'll have better games in the future.

Yea just expressing rage cause I'm also mad that those who spent the time basically wasted it.

But you're right, of course. It really comes down to the group of people. I'm confident that not all of these games will be played like this.

[yzb25]

ggwp. Maybe I'll win the next one :3

[Firebringer]

Appley you should be voting Helz.

[Frog]

Doctor 4 here.
A few points for post-abandoned game chat.

1) Inactivity
I won't call specific people out, but I will say it's not helpful being a silent Town. Citizens must be vocal meatshields. TPR's can be as vocal as Citizens without indicating roles or night actions. You don't have to claim roles or feedback to speculate.

2)Read The Setup
I understand this game has no winner due to this issue and is, at least to me, forever incomplete.

Players were obliged to vote for a Prime Minister during elections. Many didn't vote, and of course there was the rule-breaking self-vote.

The entire premise and corresponding strategy of the S-FM variant relied on this one mechanic.

As the mechanic was overlooked and ignored, we did not, in fact, play this game; rather a bastardized version based on a strategy applied to the original.

Of course, we then saw the rule-breaking break the game before SuperJack called it off defacto declaring Mafia the winners for having survived long enough for Town to inherently abandon the game.

I maintain no one won, this game unfortunately broke as it was abandoned.


3)Exceptionally Good Play
2- was a tour de force. Was well informed, showed us know he was well informed, cast many reads and cleverly opted to retain other reads. 10/10

6- What intelligent play for only 1 day. Created a fast following weighing in on a seemingly unimportant issue with enough depth to merit an appropriate level of credibility.

10- Your signature playstyle was as much required as it was a breath of fresh air in a field of scummy and inactive Towns. I expected others to follow you but it resulted in sheep mania. If this game were to be completed I'm certain your play would have rallied Town to victory.

11- I thought the role creation from false feedback was very clever, however risky. You were able to bus your teammates so well I suspect you may have actually wanted them dead.

12- Where the hell have you been hiding? You were the only one able to read through my bullshit, decipher what I actually meant, and verbalize who the last 2 mafia were and why. You were very straight forward, dangled suspicion while you held some back. Had it not been for the inactivity you'd have been set. Overall the most impressive play. If this game were ever completed I would have voted you MVP.


My Playstyle this game
I've been experimenting with new playstyles this S-FM.

I tried the self lynch bait D1.
- Helz mentioned this idea before, I realized he bit D1. Asked SJ if my avatar was allowed to troll a bit.

I tried scum gambit so I wouldn't be killed or voted PM.
- Inspired by RLVG's neutral playstyle

I tried out a pressure test.
- Turns out anyone who is pressured can seem scummy

I tried limiting my true reads on players and replaced it with mostly non-sense while keeping my actual votes authentic.
- I won't be doing this again soon. The intention was to not out TPRs by doing this, but the meaning behind my actions were lost by almost everyone. I could see it working in some environments, but not in this game.

[AppleyNO]

Appley you should be voting Helz.
Slaol's logic sold it for me xD

[Stealthbomber16]

On a side note this fortifies my win streak.

yeyeyeyeee
yeyeyeyeee
yeyeyeyeee

[yzb25]

I'm still tormented by choosing to log off early at the end of day 5. "Pfff, 11 can't do anything with this inactive town! Let's just get some sleep!". I really feel like I got outplayed in terms of persuading the town by FB. Massive ISOs 'n' that aren't always the best way to get people on your side, and I never expected 11 to be able to rally the town after me and 10 had both denounced him so hard. While FB's lynch on 7 probably would have resulted in his own lynch on the morning of day 6, I found this nevertheless quite impressive. 11 had been kinda dormant the entire game and I had gotten used to that.

While 10 had some impressive play, I felt he focused too much on just using the lynch to try and hit scum, rather than seeing the lynch as a powerful tool for beating players into doing what you want. In other words, I'd say his apprehension to a policy lynch allowed the players to develop a leniency and disrespect for authority, because they knew they wouldn't be punished for it. This strategic pitfall set us up for the insane lack of cooperation on d4 and d5. I bet we would have seen a lot more activity from 3,5,9,11 if we'd made a point of lynching War for his inactivity and saying "you could avoid this by simply posting a couple substantial posts per day."

Toadette is too hipster a vote for me, and I refuse to support Slaol's grovelling. Hence:

Firebringer