Bodyguard and Veteran

[Sin]

I suggest a mechanics change, about how BG and Vet work.

So here is what happened (I was Sheriff) :

- n3, The BG guards me
- I visit a vet on alert
- THE BODYGUARD FIGHTS THE VET, and dies (the Vet survives though, even if the BG ignores invulnerability)
- the Maf attacks me
- I die, because, well, the BG is dead

In the end : 2 townies dead, including the BG who guarded me from the maf, and the maf still kills me.

I don't think the BG should defend the Sheriff from Vets. The Bodyguard should stay at someone's place, and kill whoever comes to kill. But this precise case was a double penalty : the Bodyguard played well - he guarded the Sheriff after all - but he didn't even get the GF who attacked me, because of the Vet.

So maybe it would be possible to change the death order, so the Maf attacks happens before - this way Sheriff and BG dies, but at least the BG does his job and gets the Maf. Once it's done, well, the Sheriff is killed by the Vet, that's something that happens.
Guarding a Sheriff from someone actively trying to kill him makes more sense than guarding him when he breaks into someone else's house. I also think the BG shouldn't protect the Sheriff if the Sheriff is killed by a MM in someone else's house - this way, the BG is both buffed and nerfed.

[Damus_Graves]

I agree that BG should take priority to defend against evil killers

[Gzz]

Ahem , still you are dead and if you write the name of veteran , you reveal the veteran and he begin unuseful , better like this .

( btw , mafia kills aren' t first ? Rember that veteran survives to attacks , THEN counterattack )

[creedkingsx]

veteran goes on alert first, I believe. Maybe that's why?
I don't remember the priority orders of the kills, even though they all technically happen at the same time.

[Voss]

veteran goes on alert first, I believe. Maybe that's why?
I don't remember the priority orders of the kills, even though they all technically happen at the same time.

theres an order to it. thats why if an vigi and Mafia attack the same person, vigi will always die.

[Damus_Graves]

theres an order to it. thats why if an vigi and Mafia attack the same person, vigi will always die.

Is that in the WIKI?

[Voss]

Is that in the WIKI?

it's implied by the order of kills. and it always happened to me.

[MissingNo]

At the end of the day, it is still the town's fault for the vet encounter. Both for the vet enticing you to visit and then alerting and for you visiting a veteren. I don't think town should be catered to in this situation.

But I also think vet is just a bad role design to begin with.

[Sin]

At the end of the day, it is still the town's fault for the vet encounter. Both for the vet enticing you to visit and then alerting and for you visiting a veteren. I don't think town should be catered to in this situation.

But I also think vet is just a bad role design to begin with.

I don't say that I shouldn't have been killed : only that the BG shouldn't be killed by the vet, but by maf, and actually be useful by eliminating one maf.
Because in this case, the maf wasn't smart : they knew there was a second BG (it was an Amne pick), and still they attacked the only revealed invest role. Because of the mechanics, the maf got away scot free, while the town lost 2 people (3 actually, someone else visited the vet independantly).

[Slaol]

At the end of the day, it is still the town's fault for the vet encounter. Both for the vet enticing you to visit and then alerting and for you visiting a veteren. I don't think town should be catered to in this situation.

But I also think vet is just a bad role design to begin with.

I never see you reply unless it it negative, but I just can't find a thing wrong with what you said. I do think Vet is fine, but understand where people would hate it.

Agreed, the situation is fine as is as far as kill order goes. But BG ignoring immunity should kind of bypass Vet's immunity. Is that not obvious?

[Sin]

I never see you reply unless it it negative, but I just can't find a thing wrong with what you said. I do think Vet is fine, but understand where people would hate it.

Agreed, the situation is fine as is as far as kill order goes. But BG ignoring immunity should kind of bypass Vet's immunity. Is that not obvious?

Nope, IMO actually it's more "BG shouldn't protect the sheriff when the sheriff is checking on someone. He should only protect from agressions".

Maf attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
SK attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
Vigi attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
MM visits Sheriffs house and Sheriff isn't moving ? BG protects
MM visits the house the Sheriff checks ? BG doesn't protect
Sheriff visits the vet ? BG doesn't protect

This way, there is no problem with the vet's immunity, because the BG can't fight him.

[Slaol]

Nope, IMO actually it's more "BG shouldn't protect the sheriff when the sheriff is checking on someone. He should only protect from agressions".

Maf attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
SK attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
Vigi attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
MM visits Sheriffs house and Sheriff isn't moving ? BG protects
MM visits the house the Sheriff checks ? BG doesn't protect
Sheriff visits the vet ? BG doesn't protect

This way, there is no problem with the vet's immunity, because the BG can't fight him.

I really am fine with whatever. Current setup is balanced- don't target a Vet. Other setup makes sense from fluff standpoint. But I think BG piercing immunity should pierce immunity. 1 = 1.

[MissingNo]

Well in theory the whole idea behind the vet is "I kill you before you kill me" so in a way it makes sense he doesnt die. It is almost more like the BG is visiting him rather than dueling him.

Like, there is a house. The sheriff approaches. BG says "hey, lemme check it out first" then enters the door and takes a shotgun to the face.

[Slaol]

Acceptable. Once again I find myself fine either way.

[Sin]

Well in theory the whole idea behind the vet is "I kill you before you kill me" so in a way it makes sense he doesnt die. It is almost more like the BG is visiting him rather than dueling him.

Like, there is a house. The sheriff approaches. BG says "hey, lemme check it out first" then enters the door and takes a shotgun to the face.

My problem is that it negates the purpose of the BG, which is "I bring my opponent down". So I guess that the BG should still pierce the immunity of the vet, with a last shoot in his agony, shotgun in the face or not. OTOH, this would make the vet an even worse role for town (he already tends to kill more of his fellow citizens than he does with meanies, since maf knows who he is after the 1st kill), since he could get two townies killed (him included) in one night.

The proposition to forbid him to guard from the MM too was here to balance the BG's skill : this makes him less efficient, but not dying to the vet makes him more powerful. And it also makes the MM's job a bit easier, since he can't be killed during a killing in his own house.

[Slaol]

BG defends against MM, but follows his target (in this case Sheriff) to the house. So Sheriff has to be attacked by MM where the Sheriff would die, not at his own house.

[Lysergic]

Nope, IMO actually it's more "BG shouldn't protect the sheriff when the sheriff is checking on someone. He should only protect from agressions".

Maf attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
SK attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
Vigi attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
MM visits Sheriffs house and Sheriff isn't moving ? BG protects
MM visits the house the Sheriff checks ? BG doesn't protect
Sheriff visits the vet ? BG doesn't protect

This way, there is no problem with the vet's immunity, because the BG can't fight him.

This way makes the most sense by far.

[Voss]

I don't see why the BG doesnt kill the MM when sheriff checks.

[Sin]

I don't see why the BG doesnt kill the MM when sheriff checks.

Because it's the Sheriff's action that kills him - going to the wrong house, exactly like with the vet. He is not attacked per se.

[BorkBot]

Sheriff visits the vet ? BG doesn't protect

In this case, the sheriff should die.

Otherwise the BG can basically make anyone immune to veteran visits.

I was actually expecting that the veteran would die as well because the BG pierces immunity. bodyguard's visitation took place, so his action should also take place. The duel death shows it.

Order of actions in SC2mafia:

Veteran Alert
Bodyguard Protect
Sheriff Check
Mafia Kill

(I think)

So.. Veteran goes on alert, bodyguard protects sheriff, sheriff checks veteran and bodyguard and veteran both die in a duel, then the mafia kills the unprotected sheriff. That's what I would expect.

[Sin]

In this case, the sheriff should die.

Of course he should : the Bodyguard doesn't protect him.

As for what you expect, you want to make the whole situation even worse for town ? Lose 3 members instead of 2 ?
I think that the BG's "senseless" death is already bad enough. If on top of that he kills the vet, and he isn't there to protect the Sheriff, that makes the vet even more dangerous for town.

[BorkBot]

It's not about what's better or worse for town to me really.. I just want it to make sense from a logical standpoint, so it works intuitively.

Bodyguards can also kill vigilantes and mason leaders, so why not veterans?

[Chane]

I think he should fight off everybody that comes to kill that night, so he dies to the vete maybe but he still fights of the gf.

[BorkBot]

I think he should fight off everybody that comes to kill that night, so he dies to the vete maybe but he still fights of the gf.

That's a good alternative. He should also kill the vet though, if you ask me. I don't recall seeing anything about the vet that says "impenetrable immunity." He also dies to incineration and such.

[Gzz]

Veteran gets killed by arso only if isn' t alerted , if he is alerted the arso die and all doused are save

[Damus_Graves]

I wasnt even aware that BG doesnt kill vet when dueling.

[Voss]

I think he should fight off everybody that comes to kill that night, so he dies to the vete maybe but he still fights of the gf.

support this very much and repping for it.

I wasnt even aware that BG doesnt kill vet when dueling.

he doesnt

[Damus_Graves]

I dont agree. It makes the BG very Overpowered, even if it is just a once time thing. BG should ignore immunity and kill the first attacker he sees and die to that one.

[BorkBot]

Veteran gets killed by arso only if isn' t alerted , if he is alerted the arso die and all doused are save

As long as the arso has doused while the veteran wasn't on alert, he can incinerate. If the option for arso to pierce immunities is on and the veteran goes on alert, the veteran will still die.