S-FM 196: QT 3.14

[BananaCucho]

quick note incase I die in the night(I doubt I am ever the target)

IF FIRE FLIPS MAFIA I THINK MATTZED IS HIS PARTNER EVERYTIME despite mattzed being one of the towniest players.

What are you basing that on? I am usually against pre-flip associations and this time seems even less likely for them to make sense

[Helz]

Just read through. Let me throw out some reactionary posts and follow up with a reads list. We still have a lot of time on the day so stay mindful of your votes.

Firebringer is currently at L1

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

What are you basing that on? I am usually against pre-flip associations and this time seems even less likely for them to make sense

There interactions rub me wrong, I feel like they are two mafia who have found each other, it is just something to keep noted because if I die there is a reason and it is not because I have been playing well. If I die its probably because I notice a possible association between certain players. Fire started mafia reading me when I had both him and mattzed in the lynch order, and the only difference in our lists was he had mattzed in his town circle.

Not too strong, but just note the world.

[Helz]

Just because you are in the hot seat I will throw this out before reads and such..

Its funny me and Kovath rarely can agree on much.
I get feels that Helz is still scum and he thinks MZ is his scum buddy and he has been coaching him all day.

Can you point to any instance in the thread that indicates this? I want to see how you came to the conclusion that as scum I would scum read MZ. The bit about coaching also makes me curious.

I really want to try to understand your reasoning here^^

[BananaCucho]

Just read through. Let me throw out some reactionary posts and follow up with a reads list. We still have a lot of time on the day so stay mindful of your votes.

Firebringer is currently at L1

I missed Kovaths vote

-unvote

[Unknown1234]

I really don't like that vote because of who is voting, but will look into it.

[Kovath]

I missed Kovaths vote

-unvote

I actually think that was the vote I made at the very beginning of day during RVS LOL

Anyway, yeah a hammer any time before the 30 minutes remaining mark is anti-town.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Twice now unknown has failed to hammer, as much as I have scum read him this game I will be refusing to vote him at this point. I will only be voting on firebringer or a really really really convincing case against helz, but even then probably only fire.

[Unknown1234]

I actually think that was the vote I made at the very beginning of day during RVS LOL

Anyway, yeah a hammer any time before the 30 minutes remaining mark is anti-town.

It was. That is a really bad excuse Banana

[Kovath]

It was. That is a really bad excuse Banana

What does this have to do with Banana?

[Unknown1234]

I missed Kovaths vote

-unvote

This.

[Kovath]

Twice now unknown has failed to hammer, as much as I have scum read him this game I will be refusing to vote him at this point. I will only be voting on firebringer or a really really really convincing case against helz, but even then probably only fire.

I agree this is a towny move, but at the same a quickhammer is basically equivalent to an admittance of scum. Ergo, no scum *should* ever quickhammer.

Just like how we should have instalynched TimeForce last game for quickhammering Sino. Bah.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

What does this have to do with Banana?

hes trying to say you had the vote for so long that Banana should have known.

I find it interesting my two top towns voted, and then two other players were not willing to hammer Fire there.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I agree this is a towny move, but at the same a quickhammer is basically equivalent to an admittance of scum. Ergo, no scum *should* ever quickhammer.

Just like how we should have instalynched TimeForce last game for quickhammering Sino. Bah.

I think it is close enough to end of day that hammering would be passable. If fire was at 3 votes by anyone but an unknown third vote I hammer instantly.

Will we really learn a lot in the next 5 hours compared to the previous 65+?

[Kovath]

I think it is close enough to end of day that hammering would be passable. If fire was at 3 votes by anyone but an unknown third vote I hammer instantly.

Will we really learn a lot in the next 5 hours compared to the previous 65+?

Any extra bit is useful to us.

[Unknown1234]

I'm just saying people should really be paying more attention to their votes, there have been two situations when an issue has occurred.
1.) duck thought he could hammer me (could be fake or town lean)
2.) banana missed a first post lynch (this is not a townie move in any way, perhaps a mistake)

[Helz]

Where I stand on everyone from towniest to scummiest:

MattZed
Kovath
PLZLEAVEDUCK
Unknown
Helz
Firebringer

@BananaCucho
Could you go into more detail on this? By more I mean any

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I'm just saying people should really be paying more attention to their votes, there have been two situations when an issue has occurred.
1.) duck thought he could hammer me (could be fake or town lean)
2.) banana missed a first post lynch (this is not a townie move in any way, perhaps a mistake)

Can you reexplain your comment on me? I don't know what you mean by I thought I could hammer you. You were never even at 3 votes, and my vote was on you all game.

Also banana not knowing where kovath's vote was is not alignment indicative.
@Unknown1234 what do you think about me reevaluating on you and not willing to vote on you despite how hard I have pushed against you?

[Unknown1234]

Can you reexplain your comment on me? I don't know what you mean by I thought I could hammer you. You were never even at 3 votes, and my vote was on you all game.

Also banana not knowing where kovath's vote was is not alignment indicative.
@Unknown1234 what do you think about me reevaluating on you and not willing to vote on you despite how hard I have pushed against you?

But it's odd you change your story now. I was at 3 votes. Your vote WAS on me, you didn't realize it. Let me find the quote 1second

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

But it's odd you change your story now. I was at 3 votes. Your vote WAS on me, you didn't realize it. Let me find the quote 1second

Oh yeah I woke up due to the lawn guys being here, and I saw you at L-1 and was going to hammer, but disliked fire's reasoning/you not hammering helz. It wasn't until you reminded me shortly after that I couldn't have hammered even if I wanted to because I was one of the three votes. My mistake.

[Helz]

I am just going to say that 'not hammering' at this point is null. I would not put any value in it. It would have made a lot of sense for scum to hammer super early in the day to cripple the town but at this point it just outs them. I can go through a logic tree on this but really its nothing of value imo..

[Unknown1234]

Town:
Mattzed (hate most of his logic, but its towny)
Kovath
Banana

On the Fence:
Helz
Firebringer

Scum:
Unknown


For the record, I chose not to hammer unknown because I did not like Fire's reasoning for putting him to L-1, especially after saying he was willing to lynch helz.

Sorry for slow delay

[BananaCucho]

It was. That is a really bad excuse Banana

What are you talking about? I voted before Duck, its not like I put Fire at L-1, I just missed where Fire already had a vote. After Duck put him at L-1 I glanced at the page and didn't see Kovath's vote so I didn't realize he had 3 votes until Helz brought it up.

@BananaCucho
Could you go into more detail on this? By more I mean any

Again fuck off with the passive aggressive digs at me. I have stated time and time again who my town reads are and my position is clear.

[Helz]

What are you talking about? I voted before Duck, its not like I put Fire at L-1, I just missed where Fire already had a vote. After Duck put him at L-1 I glanced at the page and didn't see Kovath's vote so I didn't realize he had 3 votes until Helz brought it up.



Again fuck off with the passive aggressive digs at me. I have stated time and time again who my town reads are and my position is clear.

I could be straight up aggressive with you if you would like. I flat out want to see more of your 'reasoning' behind these reads and do not particularly care about the position you take. You could have the worlds shittiest reads that are 100% incorrect but if I can understand your reasoning behind them then I can more effectively read your alignment. Maybe I just keep pushing for reasoning that is not there but I am straight up falling into a read on you of "Player is kinda half ass playing this game, Is it a sign that she is scum or town who just doesn't give a fuck"

Honestly the one thing that has had me keeping a more open mind on you is that I question if you would be inclined to try harder to avoid being lynched as scum. Yeah.. Thats right.. My strongest indicator that you could be town right now is based off what you are not doing rather than what you are. Dislike me pushing you for contributions all you want but it is what it is.

[BananaCucho]

I could be straight up aggressive with you if you would like. I flat out want to see more of your 'reasoning' behind these reads and do not particularly care about the position you take. You could have the worlds shittiest reads that are 100% incorrect but if I can understand your reasoning behind them then I can more effectively read your alignment. Maybe I just keep pushing for reasoning that is not there but I am straight up falling into a read on you of "Player is kinda half ass playing this game, Is it a sign that she is scum or town who just doesn't give a fuck"

Honestly the one thing that has had me keeping a more open mind on you is that I question if you would be inclined to try harder to avoid being lynched as scum. Yeah.. Thats right.. My strongest indicator that you could be town right now is based off what you are not doing rather than what you are. Dislike me pushing you for contributions all you want but it is what it is.

I really couldn't care less what you think, you're not going to push me into playing the game how you want me to play it. I have my play style, you have yours. The only difference this game from others for me is I'm trying to tone down the aggressive play, but I'm not one to post walls of fluff or post and repost a reads list over and over.

[Helz]

I really couldn't care less what you think, you're not going to push me into playing the game how you want me to play it. I have my play style, you have yours. The only difference this game from others for me is I'm trying to tone down the aggressive play, but I'm not one to post walls of fluff or post and repost a reads list over and over.

Its not about me pushing you into playing the game how I want you to. Its about me poking you to gain information to read you. My opinion of you stands.

[BananaCucho]

Its not about me pushing you into playing the game how I want you to. Its about me poking you to gain information to read you. My opinion of you stands.

Good for you.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

So glad we are letting the day continue for this productive contribution.

[Helz]

I'm working on reads.. Kinda taking them from the ground up. Although I do not think I will be supporting the Firebringer lynch.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I'm working on reads.. Kinda taking them from the ground up. Although I do not think I will be supporting the Firebringer lynch.

What do you think about the post I made where firebringer is only scum reading me for my lynch order type plays I have made this game, yet he has done the exact same thing with even the same people in his lynch orders?

Do you not see firebringer as being inconsistent this game?

[Helz]

What do you think about the post I made where firebringer is only scum reading me for my lynch order type plays I have made this game, yet he has done the exact same thing with even the same people in his lynch orders?

Do you not see firebringer as being inconsistent this game?

I honestly do not see Firebringer as being inconsistent this game. Here is my read of him. I am working on the last reads now..

Firebringer- Slightly leaning town

Spoiler : FireBringer Stuffs :

I dislike some of the trolling thats flat out saying "I am scum" at the start of the game
#87 shows consistant reasoning saying MZ is not highly processing anything early in the game which matches his end of day analysis
#148 he gives nice reasoning on MZ
He has original contributions but also seems to be a little more on the 'interactive' side but he makes plenty of original contributions

Spoiler : Firebringers Reads :

Helz-Something especially his early trolling read as scum. His posts seem to be trying to find easy thing to call players scum. His attitude on me is normal probably for him, that I do float the middle ground often, I don't understand his scumread on me earlier as much. He reads MZ as strongest town, but his reasons didn't follow me. I suspect if Helz is scum (I am doing preflip here) he thinks that MZ is his ally.

BananaCucho-Yeah, she isn't as aggro as normal but she is trying to solve the game and read it. You can see it, she could have easily not called me town, or flipped reads on me. I don't agree with her read on Duck, and I think she has too many townreads but still solid town.

Kovath-I had townread earlier, can't rememebr what for, his pressence has been lacking latley. I am probably going to have review this later, he is still in my town list I think, but Ill go over ISO later.

MattZed-I have expressed I don't agree with him a lot on much, I don't think he is high processing much, and is taking the game from bad positions, but I think this is normal Town!Matt, I know its meta based mostly. Normal player doing what he has been doing i would call scum, for things like asking questions which seem pointless, and prodding what seems like opportunities. I think Helz made a decent point that he might be trying to solve the game, but some can be taken in a very different way.

Unknown-I think I covered this earlier, lately he has been going into more nullish. I would probably prefer a Helz lynch right now, though I don't see that happening.

PLZLEAVEDUCKK-I am approaching end here, I don't have alot to talk about, but his word chosing such as "pocketing" isn't consistent, he calls Banana town for pocketing, but I was scum for pocketing and then voting him? He doesn't seem to be acting logical, and his reads seem to go in crazy tangents. This is my preferred lynch over even Helz.

Something I notice when going through them is that they appear consistent and it is very easy to see them being based on in game posts at his times of posting. This simply means that he has been scum hunting on some level, that he is honestly posting (at least the majority) of his thoughts and has some level of no fear in it. Its particularly the evolution of these reads that I really like and how their flow matches day chat.

I really like his post #262 where he brings up this

Its something I would do. Do something kind of scummy and say "would I do this as scum" you can do taht with almost anything.
WOULD SCUM REALLY DO THIS!?!?!?!

Too scummy to be scum can be a thing, but if you point it out yourself, then you knew fully well your actions. Being self aware of it and trying to use it is scummy in of itself.

This feels genuine because it is. Its one of Firebringers signature scum moves that he pulls all the time on MS. Of all his posts this post particularly feels like town to me.

[Helz]

Reads (In order from strongest town to strongest scum leans)

MattZed- Still my strongest town lean

Spoiler : MattZed Stuffs :

Right off the bat he is pushing people in ways to read them and showing strong signs of scum hunting. He has consistent logic though out the game and even when I disagree with his conclusions I can easily understand his reasoning and how he reached those conclusions. His reads are always based off reasoning and his level of confidence in those reads always seem to be directly aligned with his presented reasoning. There are constant efforts to draw information out from other players as well as original contributions everywhere. He is not afraid to go against the grain and is sticking to his reasoning.

Kovath- Leaning Town (But kinda worried)

Spoiler : Kovath Stuffs :

He comes out of the gate looking pretty townie pushing (obvious) pro town agenda. He constantly seems to be considering what the scum perspective would be and questioning the reasoning behind other players posts. He pushes original opinions and is probably the first to voice concern over everyone’s town reading Banana following up with decent pokes. There is plenty to suggest he is scum hunting and he has never been shy to provide reasoning with his thoughts. Pretty much everything about him feels pretty damn town. The one thing that concerns me is throughout his posts I consistently see him paying close attention to everyone’s views. Sure this is a scum hunting tool but it is potentially a sign of a hyper aware very skilled scum. If he is not town he is playing impressively as scum.

Firebringer- Slightly leaning town

Spoiler : FireBringer Stuffs :

I dislike some of the trolling thats flat out saying "I am scum" at the start of the game
#87 shows consistant reasoning saying MZ is not highly processing anything early in the game which matches his end of day analysis
#148 he gives nice reasoning on MZ
He has original contributions but also seems to be a little more on the 'interactive' side but he makes plenty of original contributions

Spoiler : Firebringers Reads :

Helz-Something especially his early trolling read as scum. His posts seem to be trying to find easy thing to call players scum. His attitude on me is normal probably for him, that I do float the middle ground often, I don't understand his scumread on me earlier as much. He reads MZ as strongest town, but his reasons didn't follow me. I suspect if Helz is scum (I am doing preflip here) he thinks that MZ is his ally.

BananaCucho-Yeah, she isn't as aggro as normal but she is trying to solve the game and read it. You can see it, she could have easily not called me town, or flipped reads on me. I don't agree with her read on Duck, and I think she has too many townreads but still solid town.

Kovath-I had townread earlier, can't rememebr what for, his pressence has been lacking latley. I am probably going to have review this later, he is still in my town list I think, but Ill go over ISO later.

MattZed-I have expressed I don't agree with him a lot on much, I don't think he is high processing much, and is taking the game from bad positions, but I think this is normal Town!Matt, I know its meta based mostly. Normal player doing what he has been doing i would call scum, for things like asking questions which seem pointless, and prodding what seems like opportunities. I think Helz made a decent point that he might be trying to solve the game, but some can be taken in a very different way.

Unknown-I think I covered this earlier, lately he has been going into more nullish. I would probably prefer a Helz lynch right now, though I don't see that happening.

PLZLEAVEDUCKK-I am approaching end here, I don't have alot to talk about, but his word chosing such as "pocketing" isn't consistent, he calls Banana town for pocketing, but I was scum for pocketing and then voting him? He doesn't seem to be acting logical, and his reads seem to go in crazy tangents. This is my preferred lynch over even Helz.

Something I notice when going through them is that they appear consistent and it is very easy to see them being based on in game posts at his times of posting. This simply means that he has been scum hunting on some level, that he is honestly posting (at least the majority) of his thoughts and has some level of no fear in it. Its particularly the evolution of these reads that I really like and how their flow matches day chat.

I really like his post #262 where he brings up this

Its something I would do. Do something kind of scummy and say "would I do this as scum" you can do taht with almost anything.
WOULD SCUM REALLY DO THIS!?!?!?!

Too scummy to be scum can be a thing, but if you point it out yourself, then you knew fully well your actions. Being self aware of it and trying to use it is scummy in of itself.

This feels genuine because it is. Its one of Firebringers signature scum moves that he pulls all the time on MS. Of all his posts this post particularly feels like town to me.

PLZLEAVEDUCKK- Null to very slight town lean

Spoiler : Duckk Stuffs :

As I have said before I really disliked his initial push on Unknown. It felt totally forced and unnatural and even now I still can not see how he came to the conclusion that he is voicing based on analysis and reasoning. Throughout the game he makes good points and is pretty active. Outside of that post the majority of things feel pretty natural although he jumps back to the whole ‘Lynch me and this guy’ thing a bit too much after players voiced that they gave him town cred for saying so. One thing that bothers me is he often cuts back to voicing opinions without reasoning and when pushed for reasoning he seems kind of squirrely about it. Not really a big deal but when reading his posts it is something that consistently makes me uncomfortable.

Unknown- Slightly leaning scum

Spoiler : Unknown Stuffs :

He consistently pushes a pro town mindset but seems to get lost and confused over and over which is either a result of him misreading posts or him kicking around issues for the benefit of being seen doing so. I would say one thing that really bothers me is independent of his play in this game he seems like he could be the easiest player to lynch. Pretty much every player has at one time or another voiced some “I could see him as scum and would be willing to lynch him” opinion. He is also one that provides spotty reasoning behind his reads often posting conclusions and skipping the how or why. I am not comfortable town reading this slot.

BananaCucho- Leaning Scum

Spoiler : Banana Stuffs :

As I have been harping on most of the day I see a lack of effort from the slot. The things she is clearing players as town for just seem out of place. Throughout the game she also makes odd plays such as throwing a vote on Unknown to build pressure ‘so she can better read him’ but then she does not follow up with any pressure through conversation. No questions, No interactions, No reading his slot to FoS… Nothing at all. Its just a vote park with some soft ‘Town reasoning’ and then walking away. When she responds to pushes she often dodges the actual point of the push and takes it on some ‘red herring’ nonsense. When pushed for stronger reasoning she digs in an stays obstinate. I read her as intentionally trying to make herself tough to read. The lack of transparency from her slot is as alarming as the odd reasoning (when reasoning is provided)

[Firebringer]

I am BACK!
And day isn't over.
How much time?

[Helz]

For the end of day I do not think I would be willing to vote Firebringer. But I will also not fight against his lynch simply because I don't like his very recent activity. I would like to lynch Banana but thats kind of a coin toss. Hard to read apathetic behavior. I would be willing to lynch Unknown

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I am BACK!
And day isn't over.
How much time?

56 minutes? I think

[MattZed]

@BananaCucho , can you explain why Fire's vote on Unknown moved him from a town read you defended for literally days to your strongest scumread, stronger than even your constant scum lean from Helz?

I'm not disagreeing that disregarding one's read list to put the biggest train at L-1 is mildly indicative of scum alignment. Rather, I'm asking why this, of all things, overrides your meta read, and why it does such so strongly.

[Helz]

56 minutes? I think

Timer says 1 hour 55 mins

[Unknown1234]

Close to 2 hours

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

For the end of day I do not think I would be willing to vote Firebringer. But I will also not fight against his lynch simply because I don't like his very recent activity. I would like to lynch Banana but thats kind of a coin toss. Hard to read apathetic behavior. I would be willing to lynch Unknown

Do you think we gained enough information since Fire was at L-1 that scum unknown would have benefited from the hammer and thus denying us this information?

[Firebringer]

Wow I thought, It was going to be over in a few minutes.

[MattZed]

I will voice again that, due to the lack of a night kill, I would rather have today slip into no-lynch than have us lynch someone largely out of apathy.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Timer says 1 hour 55 mins

Oh whoops, I knew it was 3am calix time. I always mix up when I am 5 hours or 6 hours behind their timezone.

[Firebringer]

My problem right now is I could lynch Unknown cause he is in my nullish town reads, but Id highly prefer to go with PLZLEAVEDUCKK

[BananaCucho]

@BananaCucho , can you explain why Fire's vote on Unknown moved him from a town read you defended for literally days to your strongest scumread, stronger than even your constant scum lean from Helz?

I'm not disagreeing that disregarding one's read list to put the biggest train at L-1 is mildly indicative of scum alignment. Rather, I'm asking why this, of all things, overrides your meta read, and why it does such so strongly.

Sure MattZed. You are not the first person to ask that question.

Read changed due to circumstance. The way he handled that situation was awful. State 2 people that he'd rather lynch, put Unknown at L-1 and in the same breath say "I might unvote" and then retract the vote 3 hours later after two people (other than Unknown) point out how bad that looked... I don't get the town motivation there at all.

Like maybe if its 5 minutes til day end and he wants to get a lynch off that vote might make sense but that wasn't the situation at all.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I will voice again that, due to the lack of a night kill, I would rather have today slip into no-lynch than have us lynch someone largely out of apathy.

Do you think it is easier or harder for mafia to find their partner in the QT if there is no lynch?

[Unknown1234]

I think I would be willing for a no-lynch situation.

I'll be right back.

[Helz]

Do you think we gained enough information since Fire was at L-1 that scum unknown would have benefited from the hammer and thus denying us this information?

I think that scum would be less inclined to hammer in this setup than in a normal one. In a normal setup the day chat is not as critical and cutting a few hours off a 72 hour D1 would not be a big deal. In this setup its totally critical as this is the only global chat we will ever get. Scum do not know who their team mate is and can not make an informed decision of "My team mate is in good standing so I can get myself lynched and he can win the game" which is the kind of evaluation a scum would make before putting themselves in a position to be lynched. For that reason I place no value on a player deciding not to hammer.
The only L1 thing of value would have been when Unknown put me to L1 very early in the game. A hammer at that time would have been a hardcore blow to the town and a strong scum play.

[BananaCucho]

I really dislike no lynching.

[Unknown1234]

Is this accurate? I don't think I ever voted you.

[MattZed]

My problem right now is I could lynch Unknown cause he is in my nullish town reads, but Id highly prefer to go with PLZLEAVEDUCKK

Why is lynching a nullish town read remotely acceptable to you as a goal? Banana already said, before you had placed your vote, that she'd rather vote Helz and that Unknown was a pressure vote. But then you joined the Unknown train when you could have just as easily joined my leftover pressure vote on Helz and hoped BC would come back to join you. Settling for your third-choice lynch with only one sincere vote on them seemed highly premature.