Ukrainian Crysis

[Espozito]

/discuss

[oops_ur_dead]

Crimea has it's right to divide from Ukraine and join Russia. Russia shouldn't send troops to Crimea until the division is official or unless the Ukranian government tries to keep Crimea by force.

[louiswill]

Russian is not out of its mind, but it shouldn't happen as such.
Russian's decision is only good for itself, which sucks balls.

Crimea does have right to divide itself out when Ukraine government is in chaos, but not without a joint voice to declare so.
The "local militia" doesn't represented everyone in Crimea.
It is rather like the residents' better shut up in front of guns.

[Fragos]

You want to know what Ukraine is in such chaos? Because the "minority" took down the "majority" and are now dictating their own rules in the country.

Looking at all that around, the entire world could be probably one big Liar Game where the majority loses and the minority wins.

[Fragos]

Except that this kind of thing won't work in our country. We are completely aware that we have the "majority" and so won't allow the "minority" to take us down that easily.

[Espozito]

The problem I don't understand is that what's Obama's business in all of this? He wants Iraq part II or something?

[Nick]

Russian is not out of its mind, but it shouldn't happen as such.
Russian's decision is only good for itself, which sucks balls.

Crimea does have right to divide itself out when Ukraine government is in chaos, but not without a joint voice to declare so.
The "local militia" doesn't represented everyone in Crimea.
It is rather like the residents' better shut up in front of guns.

I wonder ousting of democratically elected Yaku(blabla) is good for whom. Dirty tit-for-tat in politics.

[Nick]

The problem I don't understand is that what's Obama's business in all of this? He wants Iraq part II or something?

Time to test out my new toys? Nah. Only fun to test your toys on people who can't retaliate back.

He had to be seen doing something to pacify the armchair generals and keyboard warriors. I think.

Now NATO gets half of Ukraine, and Russia gets another half. Everyone should be happy, except Ukrainians... as if they mattered.

[AppleyNO]

Wait. Wait. Wait.

There is a huge logistical issue here. Russia is not connected by land to Crimea.

Crimea gets all of its power and all of its fresh water from the Ukraine. How can Russia make up for such a difference on such short notice?

Also, its really scummy to send troops and boats to Crimea, then claim they aren't yours. But I digress.

If the vote says yes and Russia can provide, I won't be against it.

[AppleyNO]

I wonder ousting of democratically elected Yaku(blabla) is good for whom. Dirty tit-for-tat in politics.

He lost his position once he started killing protesters. Killing your citizens who are protesting is not a sound strategy.

[Apache]

i think crimea has the right to divide but i also think putin is out of his mind

[Nick]

Except that this kind of thing won't work in our country. We are completely aware that we have the "majority" and so won't allow the "minority" to take us down that easily.

Tolerance is better. Tyranny of the majority sucks.

[AppleyNO]

The problem I don't understand is that what's Obama's business in all of this? He wants Iraq part II or something?

Iraq part III*

No, Obama won't act unless something changes.

[powerofdeath]

whats an urkaine?

[Nick]

i think crimea has the right to divide but i also think putin is out of his mind

Don't let him trick you. In a staring game where both sides risk total annihilation, the nutter wins. Read this in an article on Cuban missile crisis I think.

[louiswill]

Economic pressure is far more effective than military activity.
Putin is just being putin. He wants to be a hero figure and there he is.
For Obama's part, I agree that Russia will face increasing isolation for how they approach to the problem.
It is for everyone's interests if every big nation act cautiously and responsibly.
No matter what, if both Ukraine and Crimea are better off, then no problem.
However, no one will be able to know if all unsatisfied voices are muted.


At putin's part, himself is better off and russian support him more.
I guess for putin it is just a "why not?".
For russians, are they better off?

[Bruno]

itt russians who know their country looks liek the shithole iti s lol

[Cryptonic]

itt russians who know their country looks liek the shithole iti s lol

As an American born citizen living in Russia, you can trust my word when I say Russia is the #1 country and most beautiful and prosperous on Earth.

[louiswill]

As an American born citizen living in Russia, you can trust my word when I say Russia is the #1 country and most beautiful and prosperous on Earth.

Our Chinese air pollution will invade Russia once it travels the earth a circle. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNN

[Cryptonic]

Our Chinese air pollution will invade Russia once it travels the earth a circle. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNN

Maybe if you guys brushed your teeth once in a while, it'd cut the pollution

[louiswill]

Crimea vote is just fake. Even hitler didnt have 40 % support rate.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2

[Numbertwo]

åland is a part of finland and a majority of them voted to become a part of sweden becouse everyone in åland speaks swedish and has historically been a part of sweden. The finnish government refused to give up åland. Does this give sweden the right to invade åland and take it by force?

[Dagaen]

Putin is just ridiculous. So what that Crimea was part of Russia for a long time? That kind of logic is stupid in today's world, boundaries between countries were changing everywhere every 50 years for the last couple of centuries. I live in a city that was most of the time part of Germany and became Polish after WWII, Germany could also say that city is theirs and annex it. Many countries can do it using same logic.

There's another reason why Crimea should be defended. What's stopping Russia from taking over other countries from past USSR? I mean, same logic can apply everywhere. Hitler didn't need much to start over a war - he just wanted to build a highway between Germany and Prussia right through Polish territory. Russia can do the same with Kaliningrad Oblast and Belarus. And now with Ukraine and Crimea.

[Cryptonic]

You guys are forgetting the USA has been surrounding Russia with pro-West governments & military bases for many years. It's like trying to drown someone, then getting upset once they start struggling.

Think of all the countries nearby where USA has military presence: Bahrain, Kuwait, South Korea, Afghanistan, Germany, Bulgaria, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Japan, Kosovo, and Israel.

I am not surprised Russia took action when a country it shares a border with leaves its pocket and turns pro-West. Especially in an area that is a majority Russian, and houses Russia's Black Sea fleet.

[Numbertwo]

You guys are forgetting the USA has been surrounding Russia with pro-West governments & military bases for many years. It's like trying to drown someone, then getting upset once they start struggling.

Think of all the countries nearby where USA has military presence: Bahrain, Kuwait, South Korea, Afghanistan, Germany, Bulgaria, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Japan, Kosovo, and Israel.

I am not surprised Russia took action when a country it shares a border with leaves its pocket and turns pro-West. Especially in an area that is a majority Russian, and houses Russia's Black Sea fleet.

The cold war is over. Why should it bother russia if other nations start embracing the west?

Unless the russians don't think the cold war is over.

[Cryptonic]

The cold war is over. Why should it bother russia if other nations start embracing the west?

Unless the russians don't think the cold war is over.

If Russia was doing that to countries near the USA, the USA would freak out and invade instantly.

[Bruno]

all im sayin is that considering infantry bearing no sort of identification occupying a region that is voting whether or not to secede from a country is purtty scummy

i wouldnt trust shit of what they vote lol

[oops_ur_dead]

Putin is just ridiculous. So what that Crimea was part of Russia for a long time? That kind of logic is stupid in today's world, boundaries between countries were changing everywhere every 50 years for the last couple of centuries. I live in a city that was most of the time part of Germany and became Polish after WWII, Germany could also say that city is theirs and annex it. Many countries can do it using same logic.

There's another reason why Crimea should be defended. What's stopping Russia from taking over other countries from past USSR? I mean, same logic can apply everywhere. Hitler didn't need much to start over a war - he just wanted to build a highway between Germany and Prussia right through Polish territory. Russia can do the same with Kaliningrad Oblast and Belarus. And now with Ukraine and Crimea.

Why would Putin invade Belarus lol.

[Vagina]

I'm so sick of going to war due to our alliances with other countries, so I really hope Obama stays out of this.

[Mateo]

dont blame me, i voted for ron paul

[louiswill]

Obama is not stupid. He will probably strategically make American natural gas company start to invade to Europe market, but Obama-Putin relationship is shattered in any sense.

[Nick]

åland is a part of finland and a majority of them voted to become a part of sweden becouse everyone in åland speaks swedish and has historically been a part of sweden. The finnish government refused to give up åland. Does this give sweden the right to invade åland and take it by force?

You sure that's the reason? Because Sweden didn't think that they have the right to retake åland?

I thought it's for other strategic reasons, such as to prevent German and Soviet Union from meddling in the dispute (Sweden and Finland will end up as the losers, like Ukraine).

Putin is just ridiculous. So what that Crimea was part of Russia for a long time? That kind of logic is stupid in today's world, boundaries between countries were changing everywhere every 50 years for the last couple of centuries. I live in a city that was most of the time part of Germany and became Polish after WWII, Germany could also say that city is theirs and annex it. Many countries can do it using same logic.

There's another reason why Crimea should be defended. What's stopping Russia from taking over other countries from past USSR? I mean, same logic can apply everywhere. Hitler didn't need much to start over a war - he just wanted to build a highway between Germany and Prussia right through Polish territory. Russia can do the same with Kaliningrad Oblast and Belarus. And now with Ukraine and Crimea.

It's just an excuse. Not the real reason. If so, why give Ukraine Crimea in the first place, and why not retake it earlier?

The cold war is over. Why should it bother russia if other nations start embracing the west?

Unless the russians don't think the cold war is over.

There's no end to "cold wars". American containment of China, Sunnis and Shias vying for influence in the Middle East, etc. Part and parcel of geopolitics.

[Nick]

Obama is not stupid. He will probably strategically make American natural gas company start to invade to Europe market, but Obama-Putin relationship is shattered in any sense.

"American natural gas company"...

Even if that is likely, try fulfilling internal demand first.

[Nick]

If Russia was doing that to countries near the USA, the USA would freak out and invade instantly.

I disagree. The USA are not like the lousy Russians, who lack class and finesse. The USA uses covert methods.

[louiswill]

"American natural gas company"...

Even if that is likely, try fulfilling internal demand first.

Free Trading ignore domestic demand as long as other countries wants to pay a better price.
Total surplus of consumer and producer will increase if world price is higher than domestic price.
So even if domestic consumer is worse off, the total amount will make the country better off.

If domestic consumer wants to pay more than Europe then U.S can't export. But I thought Europeans are desperate to buy any natural gas.---which is why they buy russians....

[Hypersniper]

Russia cuts off american radar and nuke defense

Russia presses the big red button and goes to ht american silos

BOOOOOOOOM BOOOOOOM BOOOOOM

Uk is like "SHIT WERE GONNA DIE I WILL JOIN YOU"

NATO IS LIKE "WAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

RUSSIA THEN LIKE "WAIT WAIT IT WAS AN ACCIDENT"

[Nick]

Free Trading ignore domestic demand as long as other countries wants to pay a better price.
Total surplus of consumer and producer will increase if world price is higher than domestic price.
So even if domestic consumer is worse off, the total amount will make the country better off.

1) I know that already.
2) I saying USA don't have a state-owned natural gas company
3) Even when USA do establish one, they should meet domestic demand first (otherwise you'll get unhappy citizens who won't vote you come next election)
4) Russia->EU natural gas is cheaper. Are you suggesting USA to subsidize EU to undercut Russia?
5) For anyone interested: Think US natgas can threaten Russia? Think again (https://www.cnbc.com/id/101481288)

If domestic consumer wants to pay more than Europe then U.S can't export. But I thought Europeans are desperate to buy any natural gas.---which is why they buy russians....

See point 4) above. No cheap, no do.
And point 5) says too late. Not sure if it's really true.

Russia cuts off american radar and nuke defense

Russia presses the big red button and goes to ht american silos

BOOOOOOOOM BOOOOOOM BOOOOOM

Uk is like "SHIT WERE GONNA DIE I WILL JOIN YOU"

NATO IS LIKE "WAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

RUSSIA THEN LIKE "WAIT WAIT IT WAS AN ACCIDENT"

Putin: We won't annex Crimea!
*Crimea votes to join Russia*
Putin: Crimean people decided to join us *evil laughs*

next...

Putin: I won't nuke America
*Operator launches nuke to USA*
Putin: It was done by a rogue operator *evil laughs*

[Dagaen]

I really wonder what US will do in this situation. When it comes to Iraq, Aphganistan or other countries with technology that is 50 years behind (and preferably with some oil) they were acting like World Police, invading the country ASAP to maitainpeace etc. etc. Now we're talking about Russia. Peacekeeping on Crimea will actually have consequences. But if they back up it will be admitting that this "keeping peace around the world" is just a buzzword.



As for crazy strategies: Putin should announce that entire Russia is now a part of Crimea, then let Ukraine retake it. After that he would do a revolution and take over the country. If West would want a war, just rename Russia to Ukraine. Problem solved.

[louiswill]

1) I know that already.
2) I saying USA don't have a state-owned natural gas company
3) Even when USA do establish one, they should meet domestic demand first (otherwise you'll get unhappy citizens who won't vote you come next election)
4) Russia->EU natural gas is cheaper. Are you suggesting USA to subsidize EU to undercut Russia?
5) For anyone interested: Think US natgas can threaten Russia? Think again (https://www.cnbc.com/id/101481288)
See point 4) above. No cheap, no do.
And point 5) says too late. Not sure if it's really true.

You are saying current statement of U.S. natural gas exporting, but I was talking about future.
It isn't coming fast.

The evidence lies in your link too.
(https://www.cnbc.com/id/101481288)

You don't really need a state run business to invade oversea market. In fact, state run business is so inefficient that it lack the strength to invade over sea business. There are very few success.

The business competition is not only about squeeze opponent completely out of market but make the profit so low that your opponent earn much less money.

If Russian remain its energy heavy economic, then it will take the hit.

Domestic demands and unhappy citizens are less concerned in free market, profit is the priority.

[Espozito]

The fact that USA's "Black list" includes the Russian person who has nothing to do with Crimean crisis confirms that Obama and his people don't even know who's in for it and who's not. Means that he doesn't care about Ukraine but wants the Black Sea entrance to form there his fleet to have Russia targeted any time.

[louiswill]

The fact that USA's "Black list" includes the Russian person who has nothing to do with Crimean crisis confirms that Obama and his people don't even know who's in for it and who's not. Means that he doesn't care about Ukraine but wants the Black Sea entrance to form there his fleet to have Russia targeted any time.

Good point. So who's in and who's not?

[Espozito]

Even funnier is that they think that Crimean self-claimed government isn't legit while Kievan self-claimed government is totally legit.
F*ck logic.

[louiswill]

Even funnier is that they think that Crimean self-claimed government isn't legit while Kievan self-claimed government is totally legit.
F*ck logic.

I'm rather skeptical to a voting board over watched by military, and I heard even if you are Russian citizen in Crimea, you can still vote --- it means if you are not a Crimean, you can still vote to let Crimea to join Russia.
But anyway, Russia will get Crimea regardless with or without the vote. The aftermath is economic and new Russian strategy targeting neighbor countries. Better watch out if you are neighbor to Russia.

For more plots, I suspect the Viktor Yanukovych sold its own country.

Does the poll surprise you by any chance?

[Espozito]

I'm rather skeptical to a voting board over watched by military, and I heard even if you are Russian citizen in Crimea, you can still vote --- it means if you are not a Crimean, you can still vote to let Crimea to join Russia.
But anyway, Russia will get Crimea regardless with or without the vote. The aftermath is economic and new Russian strategy targeting neighbor countries. Better watch out if you are neighbor to Russia.

For more plots, I suspect the Viktor Yanukovych sold its own country.

Does the poll surprise you by any chance?

Russians were allowed to vote because they were born and are living in Crimea. They are local russians.
The reason Russia connected Crimea is not to give the Black Sea to NATO and USA. It's strategical place.
But the theory of Russia forcing government collapse in Ukraine is senseless. What's the point of Ukraine joining Russia at any way? We lose a gas contract cause now, for example, Crimea will use it for free as part of Russia.

[louiswill]

I meant russian citizen who are temporarily in Crimea, not Crimea Russian. Crimea russian can make up 40% votes, not a problem, but what happened to others? 96% vote doesn't make sense, unless Viktor Yanukovych and his precedences intended to sell Crimea to Russia by not doing anything to localizing Russian immigrates.

I agree with you that Russia didn't push down previous Ukrain government. It is rather like Russia has done both preparation : If it can, projecting influence on Kiev as much as possible. If it can not, take it over -- or at least recycle what's left.

It is legit, but really it will cost Russia's diplomatic power.

You lose a gas contract now, don't worry, China will buy it.
As a Chinese, I guarantee China is the only one country which doesn't have to do anything and always be the winner in Crimea crisis:
1. China can take over European's role as the consumer to russian, the weaker the russia economic, the stronger China's bargain power.
2. If western country failed to fulfill their promise to Ukraine according to 1994 budapest memorandum, it means China can concern western countries less when China faces similar problem like Crimea.
So either way China is the benefited from this accident out of no where.
Russia economic is too relying on energy export, criticized by Mikhail Gorbachev and many many others.
If you life become harder because a gas contract, it is the russia's own policy to blame. Crimea is just trivia.

[Cryptonic]

I disagree. The USA are not like the lousy Russians, who lack class and finesse. The USA uses covert methods.

That's because the USA's citizens' safety is not at risk in all current day situations. I find the USA to use conversion methods in a proactive way, not reactive.

Think Cuban Missile Crisis. The USA's initial plan was to air strike several military bases in Cuba, but they instead settled on training and equiping local military to overthrow the government (which failed and embarrassed the USA). I think the USA would just take immediate action if it were to happen again, rather than risk a repeat of Bay of Pigs Invasion.

Do you think that if Canada started allowing Russia to put surface to surface missile silos on Canadian soil that the USA would just slap on economic sanctions or try to overthrow the Canadian government? Lol. No, they'd just walk across the border and shut it down by force.

I'm not saying that Russia is taking Crimea for their safety, btw... The example above is just in response to Nick's opinion.

[Nick]

@Cryptonic: Hmm... very true. But can't rep.

@loiuswill: Stop spouting nonsense and hypocrisy.

[louiswill]

@loiuswill: Stop spouting nonsense and hypocrisy.

Which part?

[Nick]

Obama is not stupid. He will probably strategically make American natural gas company start to invade to Europe market, but Obama-Putin relationship is shattered in any sense.

Obama: Unlikely to be achieved within Obama's tenure.
make: Obama can't force the private sector to do something, he can forbid them from doing something though.
American natural gas company: USA don't have a state-owned natural gas company which can be ordered around, unlike Gazprom of Russia.
to invade to Europe market: only as a more expensive alternative of Russian gas.

===

And your replies to Esp are nonsense. I don't think you comprehended the news you read. Began to suspect that you are actually trolling around.

[Nick]

Here's some Russian propaganda. Unconfirmed rumors.


Ukraine’s Gold Reserves Secretely Flown Out and Confiscated by the New York Federal Reserve?
https://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine...eserve/5373446