S-FM 212: Paired Mafia

[MattZed]

I already covered this. I was telling Prince there is a confirmed evil, I wasn't sure if I was reading up on it correctly.

Why does Yuki joke about being scum? To me it's a weird joke that I don't expect Yuki to make unless trying to seem like typical Yuki. I also feel like they have been less involved in discussion than normal, as well as less memes ����

Honestly, Italk how I talk. This is questionable in every game I play, including the game that I said I was "probably town" (I was town, SuperJack can confirm this) and so it's not something new it's just how I talk when playing this game.

Just to be clear, how strongly are you scumreading Yuki based on the joke alone?

I'm fine with your talking style for now FWIW.

[MiniZed]

Just to be clear, how strongly are you scumreading Yuki based on the joke alone?

I'm fine with your talking style for now FWIW.

Not very strongly, otherwise I would have put my vote back.

I also don't feel like voting Titus. I can see the lack of cooperation, but no point in stacking votes too early.

[MattZed]

Sites that don't threaten liars with lynch are bad sites. I am not going to debate this with you. Of course town lie sometimes. Why is the question. Unsatisfactory answers get rope.

Sorry if that's not how you play. Yet, given my last few games, you should be well aware that I know what I am doing.

Pissed you cannot lie as scum or overbearing control freak? Pick one.

You're reading far more passion into my posts than I actually have. I don't give many shits about whether or not we follow LaL, but if you're going to start following a meta that this site simply doesn't have, I want to know why. "Oh, just lynch all liars, guys!" is a great way for a scum to sheep a convenient train, and I don't want you getting away with that if you're scum.

Eat rope. You're making this easy.

While we're just throwing out threats instead of actually having a discussion, eat rope yourself. =)

[MattZed]

Not very strongly, otherwise I would have put my vote back.

I also don't feel like voting Titus. I can see the lack of cooperation, but no point in stacking votes too early.

If it were near EoD, who would you be voting atm?

[MiniZed]

If it were near EoD, who would you be voting atm?

Titus. I don't see myself voting Duck right now, and Eggy seems pro-town but has not been around now. I am taking note though that he wants to "pardon me" this game. He always wants to lynch me, and the fact that he has said I probably won't lynch him but I might seems suspicious to me. It's like a half plan to gain my trust and a half plan to take me down if it comes to that.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Busy till at least midnight with homework skype mafia and 2 fms, so this wont be the most wowing post ever, but I have a very strong town read on unknown, and I will explain it, but later.

I would also like titus to post her scum reasoning on unknown before I town shield him.

I do agree with her read on prince, not sure how she had superjack as town currently though.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

@Titus , why do you prefer to vote people for saying untrue things? What does it actually accomplish for you in the game right now? (honest question)


@PLZLEAVEDUCKK , if you knew what about your behavior was AI and NAI, then you'd have a nearly-perfect winrate as scum by blending so darned well. You're not off the hook, and I want to see more from you.


@Eggy , do you care to expand more on those reads, or are you just going to leave them there?


No, @Frog , I'm not. I was making a quick post in the morning because I had to go but wanted to leave instructions for how this day should go. You've been notorious for keeping things close to your chest as scum (see: Sen's nearly-canceled game or Fire's UPICK) unless you're under a lot of pressure. You've admitted yourself that it's up to town, not scum, to drive discussion, and if you're scum I'm not letting you get away with your historically successful scumplay.

On that note, do you have any reads that you would like to back up with reasoning? Surely the masterful Frog would have a lot to say right now as town.

This is playing just a bit dense. Perhaps it's just a difference in site culture, but a plain reading of the setup (and the discussion thereof in the setup there) confirms that roles are "paired" in the sense that if one is present in the game, then so is the other. Every non-citizen thus knows the existence of at least one other role in the game. Quick doesn't need to tell you this; it's just in the setup.

The act of making a reads list is NAI. I might have differences in those read lists that lean town or mafia that I am unaware of. If I ever make a reads list, you cant say "he is town for making a reads list". You have to say "he is town because his reads make sense, and are what I thought" or "he is mafia, i dont agree with the logic and it does not make sense how he got to that conclusion."

FYI as every alignment I would ping someone out for townreading me off something that wasnt AI.

[MattZed]

The act of making a reads list is NAI. I might have differences in those read lists that lean town or mafia that I am unaware of. If I ever make a reads list, you cant say "he is town for making a reads list". You have to say "he is town because his reads make sense, and are what I thought" or "he is mafia, i dont agree with the logic and it does not make sense how he got to that conclusion."

FYI as every alignment I would ping someone out for townreading me off something that wasnt AI.

Duckk, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I did explain that I was giving you minor towncred for a readlist with at least half-decent reasoning, which currently seems to be more than most people (ahem, @Titus ) can care to give atm.

[SuperJack]

@MattZed , I can not believe you're asking me this. Liars are bad for us. They obfuscate things. If someone lies, then I want to know why. The best way to solve that is usually by voting. That's common sense.

-unvote

It however seems my perception was caused by sloppy setup design.

@SuperJack , if Duck claimed paired meant we all got free Bluetooth devices, would I be required to check that too?

Why do you prod me for stupid questions?

I'm more concerned to at, why again, you are trying to continue this on.

Have you had another look at the setup and understood it yet?
is there anything you want me to clear up for you?

[ThePrince]

it is mod confirmed that paired means in the game together, which is why i said if miller wanted to claim they should fake enabler.

Therefore your reasoning is now gone.

As for your bold inquiry prince,

If I am sheriff, I know a miller is in the game. If I am miller, I know sheriff is in the game.

Survivor knows cult, cult knows survivor, etc.

It is impossible for someone to not know another person's role unless they are citizen. The mafia know the name of the role, the other players only know the role exists.

Okay, makes sense.

-I side with Titus concerning Lynch All Liars, in a text based game words and arguments is all we have. MattZed made a good point but that scenario is not common. Is it? It seems to me that for a neutral or town citizen to lie concerning alignment, the only way we can know their lying is after their role has been shown or a cop outs themselves and says their lying. The former does not matter and the latter is highly unlikely since a cop is not doing that.

[Titus]

Busy till at least midnight with homework skype mafia and 2 fms, so this wont be the most wowing post ever, but I have a very strong town read on unknown, and I will explain it, but later.

I would also like titus to post her scum reasoning on unknown before I town shield him.

I do agree with her read on prince, not sure how she had superjack as town currently though.

His interactions with me are transparently town. He sees my scumhunting.

Unknown FoSes everyone and their brother, while waiting for something to stick, zero follow through. He's not looking to sort players but is looking for reasons to attack instead. Oh and he still hasn't given a valid reason for anything. Plus, he and Matt seem desperate for things to tear apart.

[Titus]

Why do you prod me for stupid questions?

I'm more concerned to at, why again, you are trying to continue this on.

Have you had another look at the setup and understood it yet?
is there anything you want me to clear up for you?

I have the same thought. The position taken was a stretch to anyone used to "pairs" meaning investigator pairings.

Quick resolved it. It was sloppy design.

I just want to know the extent I need to pester the mod when someone disagrees with me. I don't view it as stupid but perhaps I was a little bitchy.

[Titus]

Blah no one is here to enjoy drunk Titus.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Back, I'm read for anything

[MattZed]

His interactions with me are transparently town. He sees my scumhunting.

Unknown FoSes everyone and their brother, while waiting for something to stick, zero follow through. He's not looking to sort players but is looking for reasons to attack instead. Oh and he still hasn't given a valid reason for anything. Plus, he and Matt seem desperate for things to tear apart.

Titus, how are you differentiating between a scum Unknown who's looking for any excuse to get a mislynch off vs. a town Unknown who is trying to prod/pressure people to find who the scum is?

[Titus]

Titus, how are you differentiating between a scum Unknown who's looking for any excuse to get a mislynch off vs. a town Unknown who is trying to prod/pressure people to find who the scum is?

Follow through, coherent arguments, pushing his interpretation

That's like totally missing here.

Superjack thinks I am an arrogant prick at the moment and wants to find out why. Unknown is more obsessed with surface level. Does she know I am scum kinda thinking

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

22 hours left.

Seems like eggy and yuki are not really on the chopping block.

I had been town reading unknown, I will have to go back and search him maybe now, maybe later when I have time.

Titus has felt weird all game, but I am not sure the weirdness I am getting from her play is scum indicative. She misread my posts, the setup, etc. but I really do not see how that helps her as any possible role she could have gotten, and I don't think being not town would make her play off this much.

I will try to look into my group before back to studying again . After I leave to read, I will check in occasionally if any night owls have questions for the duckinator.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Nope cant do it right now, only got halfway through before my brain gave up working for the day. Off to fail another round of studying. #cpa exam. Will finish the iso on unknown and do others in the morning

[Quick]

Back, I'm read for anything

This is a friendly reminder to keep fluff posts to a minimum.

[MattZed]

Follow through, coherent arguments, pushing his interpretation

That's like totally missing here.

Superjack thinks I am an arrogant prick at the moment and wants to find out why. Unknown is more obsessed with surface level. Does she know I am scum kinda thinking

tbh you've been a bit defensive in tone lately. I think SJ is much more relaxed than you're making him out to be.

I trust Unknown because I'm 90% confident he let his role slip. I'm not quoting the post today, but I think I know his role, and it's not mafia.

22 hours left.

Seems like eggy and yuki are not really on the chopping block.

I had been town reading unknown, I will have to go back and search him maybe now, maybe later when I have time.

Titus has felt weird all game, but I am not sure the weirdness I am getting from her play is scum indicative. She misread my posts, the setup, etc. but I really do not see how that helps her as any possible role she could have gotten, and I don't think being not town would make her play off this much.

I will try to look into my group before back to studying again . After I leave to read, I will check in occasionally if any night owls have questions for the duckinator.

Eggy isn't safe atm. Neither is Yuki. They're getting a pass now because they've been mostly inactive, but I don't think a single person has even gotten to L-3 yet. People have simply been complacent with their votes. (which isn't entirely surprising in a game with only 6 town)

But really Duckk, if you're town, half of the people in your section aren't. Surely you can offer up someone who isn't fitting in just right? If you have a case on Eggy or Yuki that isn't moon logic, I'll hear it.

[Titus]

Yeah, I don't think unknown slips his role this early. Since when has unknown been careless? Why haven't you tried to figure out why if you believed that?

Why are you complaining about the lack of wagons going anywhere, not pushing a wagon, yet hard against an unknown wagon?

[MattZed]

Yeah, I don't think unknown slips his role this early. Since when has unknown been careless? Why haven't you tried to figure out why if you believed that?

Why are you complaining about the lack of wagons going anywhere, not pushing a wagon, yet hard against an unknown wagon?

It happens, and if you look for it, you might find it. I suspect this is along the lines of what @PLZLEAVEDUCKK has picked up on as well. But I'm simply not going to say more on the subject.

I've pushed more than anyone here, but y'all aren't giving me much in the way of responses to work with. My vote accomplished what it needed to: it got you to start explaining your reasoning more. I've pushed your train in proportion to how much I like it. As it stands, it's day 1 and most things being given off are null. You've been hypersensitive to prods, but it's not enough to be an outright "my scumdar has detected Titus lynch her now gogogo."

Right now, I'd lynch you, Eggy, or Yuki. Unknown is clear for me because of the slip, and I'm temporarily allowing Duckk to slide as he continues to flesh out his reasoning. (I would very much like to check if his case to defend Unknown is the same as my own, though) You're a mild scumlean, and Eggy+Yuki are basically just policy lynches for reduced activity.

[Titus]

Oh nice try on that one. I don't give two shits about your vote. I answered because Eggy asked and they are not likely scum.

You couldn't even bother defending unknown against my points (you know they are true), so you're acting as if slipping your role before a major wagon appears is townie (it isn't) and you still haven't give reasons for your reads. All you've done is ask people for others.

Yet, unknown doesn't attack you. That's selective scumhunting at best. And that's a scum indicator too.

So why should I be townreading either of you?

[MattZed]

Oh nice try on that one. I don't give two shits about your vote. I answered because Eggy asked and they are not likely scum.

You couldn't even bother defending unknown against my points (you know they are true), so you're acting as if slipping your role before a major wagon appears is townie (it isn't) and you still haven't give reasons for your reads. All you've done is ask people for others.

Yet, unknown doesn't attack you. That's selective scumhunting at best. And that's a scum indicator too.

So why should I be townreading either of you?

I must say, I do enjoy getting absolutely nowhere with you.

I've given my reasons for every vote and every read I've made. I find it hard to believe that a town in your position would be capable of that degree of a misrep.

Suggesting Unknown and I could be scumbuddies because Unknown hasn't "attacked" me is reaching at best. The only person Unknown's been truly aggressive against is you. And for the most part the people going after you are all you pay attention to. It just so happens that the two people applying even the remotest prod to you are looking like scum? That's really just too convenient.

I have trouble seeing myself changing my vote for the rest of the day. As you say, eat rope.

[Titus]

No. You haven't. Throwing buzzwords and lies is hardly explaining yourself at all.

Also, I love how you cherrypick one observation that I make, don't deny it, but shade and say it's not enough. Selective scumhunting has long been an indicator of scuminess.

Then you shade again by saying I only pay attention to those going after me, which is also fiction.

I am not surprised that when I highlight your behavior you threaten me rather than analyzing things.

I specifically asked you why you thought a role "slip" could come from town (obviously not going to ask where in case I am wrong). You showed zero analysis on that point.

I asked you where unknown was town by play. Zero analysis.

I asked you about unknown's selective scumhunting. You whined about a well known tell.

You've tried to sell yourself as scumhunting me, but you aren't even intelligently replying to what I am saying. Rather, you are throwing copious amounts of shade hoping that I would look defensive.

You still don't justify shit.

[Titus]

Now, if you'll excuse me. I'll leave you with my favorite Donald Trump impression.

"I'm number one. What y'all need three times the resources, I can do with one. Some people would say catching the scum too early is a negative thing. Me, I say it's a challenge to work on persuasion."

Y'all in?

[MattZed]

No. You haven't. Throwing buzzwords and lies is hardly explaining yourself at all.

Also, I love how you cherrypick one observation that I make, don't deny it, but shade and say it's not enough. Selective scumhunting has long been an indicator of scuminess.

Then you shade again by saying I only pay attention to those going after me, which is also fiction.

I am not surprised that when I highlight your behavior you threaten me rather than analyzing things.

I specifically asked you why you thought a role "slip" could come from town (obviously not going to ask where in case I am wrong). You showed zero analysis on that point.

I asked you where unknown was town by play. Zero analysis.

I asked you about unknown's selective scumhunting. You whined about a well known tell.

You've tried to sell yourself as scumhunting me, but you aren't even intelligently replying to what I am saying. Rather, you are throwing copious amounts of shade hoping that I would look defensive.

You still don't justify shit.

Hoping you look defensive? You are defensive. You're accusing me of lying but you don't even put in the effort to say what the alleged lies are.

I've made clear I'm not talking more about Unknown's slip. Not discussing why I think a non-mafia can slip is part of that. Period.

Aaaaand then the misrep pours in. I'm not here to defend Unknown's play and given the lack of any sort of consensus to pressure him, I don't see a reason to. I read him because of his slip, not because of his play. He's made a mere 20 posts, none of them accomplishing much. I'm not giving him anything other than a null based on play. Looking more into Unknown is simply not my concern here.

I didn't complain about you using a tell. I pointed out that the tell isn't even remotely valid here. Unknown has hardly given deep thoughts on anyone, so the idea "oh, he's not attacking this one person, must be his scum partner" is completely shit because he's not going after people to begin with. But then you invoke an even more subtle misrep: You started talking about who Unknown was "attacking," which of course doesn't include me, but now you're talking scumhunting in general. Unknown has given comments on some of my posts and how he feels about them. Not terribly fleshed out, sure, but he's said thoughts about me, and you need to stop pretending that didn't happen.

And there you end with your strongest misrep. I'm the one not justifying shit? Please. Just belly up already. A town Titus would not be so wildly misrepping someone going after her, but a scum Titus has all the reason in the world to discredit the most vocal town. You almost could not be more transparent.

[Orpz]

An exclamation of surprise at the lack of shitposts, as well as an irrelevant commentary on how Criminal Minds firing Thomas Gibson was justified but unfortunate.

[Orpz]

No. You haven't. Throwing buzzwords and lies is hardly explaining yourself at all.

Also, I love how you cherrypick one observation that I make, don't deny it, but shade and say it's not enough. Selective scumhunting has long been an indicator of scuminess.

Then you shade again by saying I only pay attention to those going after me, which is also fiction.

I am not surprised that when I highlight your behavior you threaten me rather than analyzing things.

I specifically asked you why you thought a role "slip" could come from town (obviously not going to ask where in case I am wrong). You showed zero analysis on that point.

I asked you where unknown was town by play. Zero analysis.

I asked you about unknown's selective scumhunting. You whined about a well known tell.

You've tried to sell yourself as scumhunting me, but you aren't even intelligently replying to what I am saying. Rather, you are throwing copious amounts of shade hoping that I would look defensive.

You still don't justify shit.

An infuriatingly brief post about my confidence in Titus's town alignment.

[Yukitaka Oni]

tbh you've been a bit defensive in tone lately. I think SJ is much more relaxed than you're making him out to be.

I trust Unknown because I'm 90% confident he let his role slip. I'm not quoting the post today, but I think I know his role, and it's not mafia.


Eggy isn't safe atm. Neither is Yuki. They're getting a pass now because they've been mostly inactive, but I don't think a single person has even gotten to L-3 yet. People have simply been complacent with their votes. (which isn't entirely surprising in a game with only 6 town)

But really Duckk, if you're town, half of the people in your section aren't. Surely you can offer up someone who isn't fitting in just right? If you have a case on Eggy or Yuki that isn't moon logic, I'll hear it.

Just read everything, wait for my post

[Yukitaka Oni]

Also, there can be only one true Zed.

-vote MiniZed

If random voting only worked by voting people who were online, it wouldn't be readable.

-vote Yukitaka Oni

Nice try, Jester. ;)

Oh, just making sure the plebs don't suspect us.

How are you gonna make it through D1?

Duckk, if you wanna powerwolf and take town leadership, you're going to have to be less pedantic. Trying to draw meaningful conclusions from the first 50 post isn't pro-town, it's just fantasy.

Boy, that is some interesting rampant speculation. Someone more easily triggered would yell "PRE-FLIP ASSOCIATION."

One of the primary assets of being mafia is being able to make the first move; you know who everyone is, so you don't need to sit around and figure out who your allies are. Right now, I'm not seeing someone who's doing the cautious reads I'd expect from a fellow town. I'm seeing someone who's trying to get themselves townread out of sheer activity.

-vote PLZLEAVEDUCKK

That's a false equivalence. Giving role-themed information in one's posts is distinct from a fluff post that can only be interpreted as something more sinister if you suppose that I'm mafia and Yuki rolled a neutral that might not even exist in this game.

Oh, first I'm a mafia allied to Malicious Savior Yuki, and now I'm neutral scumslipping? Please, continue on about how clearly scummy I'm being.

Your argument that mafia aren't informed because of the existence of neutrals is severely flawed. Mafia wincon is to eliminate 3 people in one of the groups while keeping themselves alive. It doesn't matter if they eliminate town or neutral; they just need 3 people dead. They know all of the information they need, so they can get to their objective right away. This is precisely what I mean by informed.

The easiest explanation is that it was a FLUFF POST that Yuki made in response to being RV'd. If you want to read motivation into something, you don't just ask "is this helpful to town," but rather "how likely would Town Yuki have made this post, and how likely would scum Yuki have made this post?" and weigh this with the proportion of scum and town in the game. Given that Yuki is known for fluff, making a fluff post early on doesn't indicate scum for him.

I'm fine explaining Bayes' Rule to you, since you are clearly failing to grasp it, but not being helpful to town =/= scum motivated.

No, Duckk, I'm not accepting the conclusion that you're bad. You're either scum (including neut) and just throwing shit out there to help your objective, or you're town with room to improve on your play. You don't get to say "I'm making bad plays." If you're town, think before you post; and if you're scum, then my vote is well placed.

Before getting to Duckk's most recent post, something I've noticed from the setup spec:

A MILLAR SHOULD NOT CLAIM.

Millars are 3 HP and thus not insta-killed by the night kill. If they claim they are telling the mafia "go look in the other group and you might find a negative utility 1 HP town you can kill." If there's a Sheriff, they already know a Millar exists and you can claim your probably-unique role then if you are unluckily checked. Until then, think of yourself as someone who can take a bullet.

Speaking of which, I'm realizing now that random voting may have been a mistake.

IF YOU HAVE NOT VOTED YET, DO NOT VOTE, BUT INDICATE WHO YOU WOULD VOTE IF IT WAS END OF DAY.

Actors can only hammer and are also 1 HP. If we have one, our random voting will out the actor as being the only person who didn't vote, and if we don't have a doctor to heal them, RIP.

I'm not sure I accept the idea that Yuki's post was at all unusual, but even if I did, you are a pushing a very specific hypothesis. You're supposing that there is a Malicious Savior, that it's Yuki, that I'm Mafia, and that Yuki, as Malicious Savior, would choose his second post to try to reveal himself to his mafia allies discretely. This is way more than one post allows you to suspect. I'm not treating your hypothesis seriously because I'm town and thus know it's wrong, but even from an outsider's perspective it's waaaaaay too far fetched, which makes me suspicious of why you're making it in the first place.

I RETRACT WHAT I SAID ABOUT NOT RANDOM VOTING. GO AHEAD.

This is sheer moon logic.

You are claiming that, from one fluff post at the start of the game, you can figure out who 2/3 of the scum are. Just sanity check yourself and ask which is more likely: You found the biggest scumslip of all time on page 1 and everyone else missed it, or you've come up with a crazy theory that probably isn't true?

But you still approach the probability incorrectly. You haven't answered "is Malicious Savior Yuki more likely to have made that post than Town (or any other alignment, really) Yuki, and if so, by how much?" If you really think there's a 0% chance a non-MS Yuki would make that post, then I really don't know where to begin with you.

And as Duckk departs, I'll note for those reading the thread later that my vote against Duckk is not random.

Duckk's train of thought evades logic and common sense. The evidence to support his theory simply doesn't exist, and the fact that he continues to push his theory makes me wonder "is Duckk actually reading this game?" The only way I can see him not realizing his theory is bad is if he doesn't actually care.

And there's the flaw. Town should be concerned about how accurate their reads are. They may have faulty reasoning at times or hunches they can't explain, but their reads should follow plainly from their reasoning. Duckk's doesn't, and it doesn't bother him. I haven't ruled out that he's town simply trying to "stir the pot" before the real stage of the game begins, but he certainly has a lot of explaining to do, and I want to hear it when he gets back.

Some more banter at MattZed for not reading the setup, followed by a quote from the setup that states the uniqueness of roles.

Orpz you dolt he's in group 2.

As for things to happen since I left:
I'm actually a big fan of Duckk providing a quick read list now that people have had a chance to check in. He's not off the hook yet for moon logic, but he makes a read list that cites specific things people have been doing, so I'm not scumreading him as strongly as when I signed off last night.

Times like this remind me that Frog has an incredibly infuriating playstyle. Time and again I've seen him enter a game and refuse to give information until the last minute, and he's doing it again here. The only positions he's advanced is that Titus is hard to read, Duckk is obvious town, and I'm obvious scum. And yet he doesn't list the reasoning. How can I tell the difference between a Frog who's town hiding his reasons for supporting Duckk and scum Frog who's trying to pocket an active player? You can't. Right now he's pushing that I'm obv scum for having an "objective perspective," without going into any details of what that is or why it might be a scumtell. Discrediting one of the most vocal members of town so far without explaining why? Yeah, no. Not letting that slide. Frog is a scumlean and I'd be voting him now if he were in group 1.

HOLD. FROG. ACCOUNTABLE.

Eggy needs to read the setup, but him seeming to think Jester is actually a role in the game may have been a non-neutral slip.

Titus should post more substance. Null

Null on Orpz/SJ

ThePrince is reading the game and using their short post for substance. Townlean.

lol I concede this point.

@Titus , why do you prefer to vote people for saying untrue things? What does it actually accomplish for you in the game right now? (honest question)


@PLZLEAVEDUCKK , if you knew what about your behavior was AI and NAI, then you'd have a nearly-perfect winrate as scum by blending so darned well. You're not off the hook, and I want to see more from you.


@Eggy , do you care to expand more on those reads, or are you just going to leave them there?


No, @Frog , I'm not. I was making a quick post in the morning because I had to go but wanted to leave instructions for how this day should go. You've been notorious for keeping things close to your chest as scum (see: Sen's nearly-canceled game or Fire's UPICK) unless you're under a lot of pressure. You've admitted yourself that it's up to town, not scum, to drive discussion, and if you're scum I'm not letting you get away with your historically successful scumplay.

On that note, do you have any reads that you would like to back up with reasoning? Surely the masterful Frog would have a lot to say right now as town.

This is playing just a bit dense. Perhaps it's just a difference in site culture, but a plain reading of the setup (and the discussion thereof in the setup there) confirms that roles are "paired" in the sense that if one is present in the game, then so is the other. Every non-citizen thus knows the existence of at least one other role in the game. Quick doesn't need to tell you this; it's just in the setup.

Honestly, when I skimmed through the thread to read what I missed, I skipped over your posts because I thought they were mine.

Kek.

But seriously, I would like to see some reasoning-based reads.

In response to @MiniZed :
I would direct you to the part of the setup that says roles are unique and that the neutral roles are paired. Our neuts are either Survivor/Savior or SK/Exec.

What about Yuki's jokes gives you more of a scum impression than a null impression? Are you voting Yuki because he's seeming really scummy to you, or simply because he's scummier than everyone else? (also, there is a space in his name unless you meant to fakevote)


These are objective facts. Why do you phrase them as merely "seeming" to be?

That's a lot of conclusions to be making for someone who seems super intent on the argument that town are uninformed.

Would you like to share some reasons for these reads?

Well, I don't accept that liars are necessarily bad for us. Sure, there are some sites with a very strong anti-liar meta, but there are times when it would be helpful for town if the right people could tell strategic lies. Concretely, we want the neuts right now to lie and say that they're town so that they can potentially take bullets for town. Lying in and of itself isn't unhelpful, but with poor execution or sinister motivations, it ends poorly for us.

Frankly, I'm fine that you want to investigate, (although you suffer the same problem as MiniZed in spelling your vote incorrectly) but I want to makes sure that you're not going to end up pushing a lynch just because someone lied.

I apologize that I made asking for reasoning seem like it was merely a request. It wasn't.

-vote Titus

Just to be clear, how strongly are you scumreading Yuki based on the joke alone?

I'm fine with your talking style for now FWIW.

You're reading far more passion into my posts than I actually have. I don't give many shits about whether or not we follow LaL, but if you're going to start following a meta that this site simply doesn't have, I want to know why. "Oh, just lynch all liars, guys!" is a great way for a scum to sheep a convenient train, and I don't want you getting away with that if you're scum.


While we're just throwing out threats instead of actually having a discussion, eat rope yourself. =)

If it were near EoD, who would you be voting atm?

Duckk, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I did explain that I was giving you minor towncred for a readlist with at least half-decent reasoning, which currently seems to be more than most people (ahem, @Titus ) can care to give atm.

Titus, how are you differentiating between a scum Unknown who's looking for any excuse to get a mislynch off vs. a town Unknown who is trying to prod/pressure people to find who the scum is?

tbh you've been a bit defensive in tone lately. I think SJ is much more relaxed than you're making him out to be.

I trust Unknown because I'm 90% confident he let his role slip. I'm not quoting the post today, but I think I know his role, and it's not mafia.


Eggy isn't safe atm. Neither is Yuki. They're getting a pass now because they've been mostly inactive, but I don't think a single person has even gotten to L-3 yet. People have simply been complacent with their votes. (which isn't entirely surprising in a game with only 6 town)

But really Duckk, if you're town, half of the people in your section aren't. Surely you can offer up someone who isn't fitting in just right? If you have a case on Eggy or Yuki that isn't moon logic, I'll hear it.

It happens, and if you look for it, you might find it. I suspect this is along the lines of what @PLZLEAVEDUCKK has picked up on as well. But I'm simply not going to say more on the subject.

I've pushed more than anyone here, but y'all aren't giving me much in the way of responses to work with. My vote accomplished what it needed to: it got you to start explaining your reasoning more. I've pushed your train in proportion to how much I like it. As it stands, it's day 1 and most things being given off are null. You've been hypersensitive to prods, but it's not enough to be an outright "my scumdar has detected Titus lynch her now gogogo."

Right now, I'd lynch you, Eggy, or Yuki. Unknown is clear for me because of the slip, and I'm temporarily allowing Duckk to slide as he continues to flesh out his reasoning. (I would very much like to check if his case to defend Unknown is the same as my own, though) You're a mild scumlean, and Eggy+Yuki are basically just policy lynches for reduced activity.

I must say, I do enjoy getting absolutely nowhere with you.

I've given my reasons for every vote and every read I've made. I find it hard to believe that a town in your position would be capable of that degree of a misrep.

Suggesting Unknown and I could be scumbuddies because Unknown hasn't "attacked" me is reaching at best. The only person Unknown's been truly aggressive against is you. And for the most part the people going after you are all you pay attention to. It just so happens that the two people applying even the remotest prod to you are looking like scum? That's really just too convenient.

I have trouble seeing myself changing my vote for the rest of the day. As you say, eat rope.

Hoping you look defensive? You are defensive. You're accusing me of lying but you don't even put in the effort to say what the alleged lies are.

I've made clear I'm not talking more about Unknown's slip. Not discussing why I think a non-mafia can slip is part of that. Period.

Aaaaand then the misrep pours in. I'm not here to defend Unknown's play and given the lack of any sort of consensus to pressure him, I don't see a reason to. I read him because of his slip, not because of his play. He's made a mere 20 posts, none of them accomplishing much. I'm not giving him anything other than a null based on play. Looking more into Unknown is simply not my concern here.

I didn't complain about you using a tell. I pointed out that the tell isn't even remotely valid here. Unknown has hardly given deep thoughts on anyone, so the idea "oh, he's not attacking this one person, must be his scum partner" is completely shit because he's not going after people to begin with. But then you invoke an even more subtle misrep: You started talking about who Unknown was "attacking," which of course doesn't include me, but now you're talking scumhunting in general. Unknown has given comments on some of my posts and how he feels about them. Not terribly fleshed out, sure, but he's said thoughts about me, and you need to stop pretending that didn't happen.

And there you end with your strongest misrep. I'm the one not justifying shit? Please. Just belly up already. A town Titus would not be so wildly misrepping someone going after her, but a scum Titus has all the reason in the world to discredit the most vocal town. You almost could not be more transparent.

Matt, either you're town or you are neutral in my read now.

[SuperJack]

I have the same thought. The position taken was a stretch to anyone used to "pairs" meaning investigator pairings.

Quick resolved it. It was sloppy design.

I just want to know the extent I need to pester the mod when someone disagrees with me. I don't view it as stupid but perhaps I was a little bitchy.

Good good. Thoughts on orpz annoying style of posting. I find it distracting and harder to read.

[MiniZed]

I don't get what people have said about my role slipping at this point.

[MiniZed]

Yeah, I don't think unknown slips his role this early. Since when has unknown been careless? Why haven't you tried to figure out why if you believed that?

Why are you complaining about the lack of wagons going anywhere, not pushing a wagon, yet hard against an unknown wagon?

If you are being completely honest here, I have no idea where you are getting your idea of town!Unknown from. You are comparing me to (maybe?) that game where I was the bleeder otherwise you are characterizing me completely wrong on purpose.

1.) I make more slips when I'm town than when I'm scum. I say the stupidest things and then people catch me and it's like "this is dumb." I'm more cautious as scum.

I've hinted my role before, but this isn't relevant at all to most games that I play including this one. Not sure where Matt is getting his information from but it's probably a false conclusion.

Also you are only using points on me (which don't even make sense on me) for whatever reason. I haven't seen you comment on anything but myself and others whom accuse you, and you are acting way too aggressive which is relatable to games I've played with you. TBH I read you scum less now actually because this unnecessary pushing style did not remind me of last game, but the game before when you decided to push me for the dumbest reasons. (Sandbox if I'm not mistaken.) gut is telling me there are better lynches currently, and as sad as it is to say I'm usually not wrong.

That being said, I have not been making arguments at all other than slight points because I usually don't early on. You either have an entirely wrong view on me and my normal play style, or you are just trying to make me look worse.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I don't get what people have said about my role slipping at this point.

It would be awkward if you're a scum buddy with mattzed in this game. I know

[MiniZed]

His interactions with me are transparently town. He sees my scumhunting.

Unknown FoSes everyone and their brother, while waiting for something to stick, zero follow through. He's not looking to sort players but is looking for reasons to attack instead. Oh and he still hasn't given a valid reason for anything. Plus, he and Matt seem desperate for things to tear apart.

This makes no sense. I hope my "brother" is Matt otherwise no idea what you're saying.

Going to look at the rest of your arguments, but I've noticed you do one thing that I am strongly against specifically out of the context you took it from and how it was changed at such time.

[MiniZed]

It would be awkward if you're a scum buddy with mattzed in this game. I know

That would be fun though, :P

[MiniZed]

Oh nice try on that one. I don't give two shits about your vote. I answered because Eggy asked and they are not likely scum.

You couldn't even bother defending unknown against my points (you know they are true), so you're acting as if slipping your role before a major wagon appears is townie (it isn't) and you still haven't give reasons for your reads. All you've done is ask people for others.

Yet, unknown doesn't attack you. That's selective scumhunting at best. And that's a scum indicator too.

So why should I be townreading either of you?

Your argument is based on how you think I act, which is completely wrong and you only use this to describe me. I actually have no idea where you have this image of me, and for that reason it actually makes me more suspicious because you are doing what you said I was doing (and I was called scummy for that). Your only argument is that you are trying to pin me as scum because I'm not doing the stuff that I "normally" do as town.

Why would I want to attack MattZed? This is broken logic and I can't even follow what you are getting at.

[MiniZed]

Yeah, I don't think unknown slips his role this early. Since when has unknown been careless? Why haven't you tried to figure out why if you believed that?

Why are you complaining about the lack of wagons going anywhere, not pushing a wagon, yet hard against an unknown wagon?

The only game you played with me when I was Town was when I slipped my Bleeder role at like post #47. I have lost any slight town-read I had now.

[MiniZed]

You are voting people who

1.) Accuse you
2.) "make up stuff" about you
3.) have no proof to back up your thoughts, and
4.) Have refused to cooperate or even be part of discussion.

To return to the point mentioned previously, I corrected myself when I originally wrote this, and the only reason that Titus has kept up her argument is because of this. She actually never said anything about this before it.

To be clear, I was saying # 3 and 4 against Titus, but apparently she took this as me "attacking myself" which stuff that actually isn't true. I have backed up my points, about your lack of communication/cooperation and the fact that you are using this image of me and trying to make me look bad which is stupid.

I'm done now, nothing more to say and I am just repeating myself at this point.

[MiniZed]

Good good. Thoughts on orpz annoying style of posting. I find it distracting and harder to read.

SuperJack, have you taken any thought on the Me vs Titus and MZ vs Titus? Because last time I checked you were defending Titus by speaking for her and now you are picking on points outside the main argument ONLY.

[Titus]

@MiniZed , I told you then and I told you now, I default as viewing such leaks as scum, depending on the role.

The only "lack of cooperation" I gave done us cooperating with mislynches. Instead, I have been showing players as town, boxing scum in. You engage in self meta too.

"Look at me, I slipped my role before in an anti-town fashion, I did it again so I am town. Oh and I'll assume that anyone who believes me when I say that is town with no further analysis. This even assumes I did slip my role, which I shouldn't be proud of."

[Titus]

Good good. Thoughts on orpz annoying style of posting. I find it distracting and harder to read.

Agree but he's not group 1 at the moment, so we cannot do much about him dicking around.

[Titus]

Meh, I reconsidered. I think Orpz should be left alone, and maybe forced to give irrelevant commentary on Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen.

[MiniZed]

@MiniZed , I told you then and I told you now, I default as viewing such leaks as scum, depending on the role.

The only "lack of cooperation" I gave done us cooperating with mislynches. Instead, I have been showing players as town, boxing scum in. You engage in self meta too.

"Look at me, I slipped my role before in an anti-town fashion, I did it again so I am town. Oh and I'll assume that anyone who believes me when I say that is town with no further analysis. This even assumes I did slip my role, which I shouldn't be proud of."

You are presenting everything you say as if you are trying to fight everything. This isn't productive so I have no idea what you are doing.

I didn't leak. I even SAID that because I don't know what this argument is. You are assuming I slipped without actually knowing where I "slipped" which is beyond scummy.

No. you didn't answer multiple questions Matt and Duck asked because you didn't want to or "need to" (SuperJack too i think) so don't go around saying you cooperated.

Tell me who you interacted with other than the people you accused. Me and Matt, both people who accused you, AND at the time Duck too are the ONLY people you ever pushed. You can't say you don't scum-read the people who accuse you of being scum.

See point 1. I never said I Purposely slipped, but that your argument is weak because you've followed it before on me and you have screwed up. I don't know how you use that as a scum-slip, scum are more conscious and more careful than Town are.

[Titus]

Now, that's even more falsehoods. My whole argument has been supposing you slipped a role, you could still be scum seeking credit to match your town meta. Obviously, if you didn't, we know how I feel about liars.

Not flooding the thread with pointless questions, and seeing if you would whine about being caught are protown motivations and cooperating. A doormat doesn't cooperate. Intelligent people cooperate in their own way.

SuperJack I interacted with. Eggy I did even after I realized he was town. I don't have to comment on everything. On Ms, I am the queen of tunnels because I get my scum lynched.

[ThePrince]

Matt, either you're town or you are neutral in my read now.

You quoted all of those posts and that is all? I was expecting some epic analysis.

What makes you disagree? I myself might not be too sure, if we had nothing else to go off of it gets rid of a 3p instead of potentially leaving an enemy. (Side note, what if there are two survivors?)

I agree with not revealing the 3p at this point. Revealing them gives the mafia three confirmed town to hit from a single pool, which is bad for us opposed to a 3p possibly being hit.

Is that all you are going about with your vote then? I don't disagree with it at this point.

Sorry, I missed this post completely.

What was the "what makes you disagree?" question referring too? If it's the Titus claiming posts, I explained it and you touched on it.

At the time, yes.



-Yukitaka Oni: You're first 3 posts was fluff. The 4th post is about going to sleep. Your first post back was overly defensive imo. You followed up with a series of posts that I categorize as fluff. This post right here gives me cause for concern. In the setup it says "Mafia share DAY CHAT." Also, in the forum I'm coming from (granted it was not a mafia based forum) mafia always had a chat. So, saying mafia does not have a chat seems really off to me.

-vote Yukitaka Oni

-I town read Duck.
-MiniZed is lean town to me.
-Titus has had shaky moments in the game. I did not like his early claiming posts, I agreed with him on Lynch All Liars. He came off defensive at times. Lean scum, but Yuki is a stronger scum read for me.
-Eggy is neutral for me, right now. No read on him.

[Yukitaka Oni]

The Mafia and the neutral will feel ease when they vote anyone in their group, although that's not the case check for everyone (emotion) especially the people who decide to sheep vote and not vote.
Not much of a idea, but right now we should rather (pick) a group to lynch to narrow down the read pool and focus on 1 group rather than reading everyone. Basically we're going to do the same trick like the previous 3 group game

[Yukitaka Oni]

You quoted all of those posts and that is all? I was expecting some epic analysis.




Sorry, I missed this post completely.

What was the "what makes you disagree?" question referring too? If it's the Titus claiming posts, I explained it and you touched on it.

At the time, yes.



-Yukitaka Oni: You're first 3 posts was fluff. The 4th post is about going to sleep. Your first post back was overly defensive imo. You followed up with a series of posts that I categorize as fluff. This post right here gives me cause for concern. In the setup it says "Mafia share DAY CHAT." Also, in the forum I'm coming from (granted it was not a mafia based forum) mafia always had a chat. So, saying mafia does not have a chat seems really off to me.

-vote Yukitaka Oni

-I town read Duck.
-MiniZed is lean town to me.
-Titus has had shaky moments in the game. I did not like his early claiming posts, I agreed with him on Lynch All Liars. He came off defensive at times. Lean scum, but Yuki is a stronger scum read for me.
-Eggy is neutral for me, right now. No read on him.

>claim sleeping is lying
>thought human cannot sleep because it's a lie
Wow, such bot, such spam, robot much ? The only explanation why you thought sleeping is a lie is because you're a bot, not a human account bro. Hey skynet, who's the scum? Who's the neutral, show me, you'ol piece of junk robotic :V

[SuperJack]

LaL makes sense. Deters town from making stupid gambits. Only under some circumstances is it OK.