S-FM 208: Black Flag Nightless

[DarknessB]

I like this VCA post quite a bit. It's interesting to see that you are scum-read by all 4 and that TDL and Calix are scum-read by 3 players each. I'm intrigued to know why Mesk is town-read by Spruance and SP. She's done nothing to warrant this read imo.



This statement isn't true though. I scum-read SP and it's whom I voted.

What would your reads be?

I agree that the reads chart is useful, but I would caution people at concluding alignment based upon maintaining fancy charts, as opposed to using the charts as tools for discussion. I believe that Calix and others have said in the past that they regarded this as a Town-tell -- same with keeping VCAs. Iced isn't a dumb player and I imagine he realizes this.

Explain this scum-read.

Also pretty suspicious that you cast your vote on Calix right after Iced called you out on it.

I agree that SP's votes have been very oddly timed -- basically, they seem to be prompted by prodding as opposed to proactive, which I don't like.

i hadnt read much before I posted that just had to reply because my sanity was in question. Anyway I was intoxicated most of yesterday. I think everyone should completely disregard everything I was previously saying. Mesk is not scum I was just stupid. and in the slight chance she is we got bigger fish to fry. [vote]Never Unlucky[vote]. I dont remember NU pressuring anyone other than second passing( I might be wrong). I strongly believe secondpassing is town and your are all mistaking badness for scummyness, he reminds me of most of the players in the begginer game. scum reading people who scum read him.

Dont think scum would ever be so obvious even if he is a beginner. Also I dont see deathworlds putting him as scum just doesnt seem like something a host would do. Im not sure how roles are assigned though so I dont know.

My lynch pool for today is NU, Unknown, Tdl or spruance I will not vote outside of those unless im faced with substantial evidence.

Intoxication aside, this seems like a hedge-type post that could have been used to take people's temperature on a Mesk lynch, but without having to stake yourself to it. I feel like your read on NU has also pivoted a couple of different times without much of an explanation of why.

Eggy the only thing I really take out of that is where you say "disregard everything I said yesterday". That just seems like a horrible way to cover up your previous play.

I've also made this point about SP when he was saying that his initial post was to be ignored -- I don't think you get that type of pass in an FM game.

Poor play from Eggy this game. Attention has been off him but I think it should be looked at.

Eggy has been curiously under the radar given the SP-NU clash which has occupied much of Day 1. In fact, I don't think anyone has given much of a read on him, perhaps due to a lack of activity. Eggy and Mesk have a weird Day 1 meta deal that seems to come up during a lot of games though. Makes me uncomfortable.

Calix touched on this. She characterized it wrongly though.
Never Unlucky did not unsign because he wanted Calix in the game, he unsigned because Spruance, Slayer, and possibly me were in it. He made the effort to include me in the quote. If Calix were to join, it would "balance" the level of good play to bad play or something.

Never Unlucky unsigned out of frustration. People get frustrated at town players fighting with them, or with an unresponsive town.

This is tin-foil hat land -- whatever happened in an unrelated sign-up thread has nothing to do with this game. The fact that you are raising this as an argument as opposed to focusing on the game in question absolutely baffles me. I don't know if it's poorly deflecting scum or what, but it's off the charts bad.

Eggy is know. For his "under the radar" playstyle as scum which is where we are going right now. Eggy scum-read NU, swapped when I made a point, but then swapped back again and put NU in his scum pile. He also puts players who aren't favoured (Secondpassing, me) into his scum pile without original explanations on either of us. I can't remember anything he said on TDL.

The flip side of this is that Eggy tends to start games more slowly, but he has successfully been under the radar to begin this one. I don't blame him for not having much to say on TDL -- TDL hasn't said much this game himself and everything he has said has been fairly self-evident. Like questioning SP's odd Townread on him. Are there any posts of Eggy's that ping you the wrong way? I will take a look myself too.

[Never Unlucky]

DB, while you're here, what do you think of hits paragraph I made about you?

.

2. Logical posts made in an attempt to scum-hunt/pressure. However, DB's tone feels distant/neutral. His posts feel objective and lack opinion IMO. He hasn't given his reads on SP with whom he's had a substantial interaction.
His tone in IC felt way more engaged -- maybe it's because Spruance had shot him, and he got salty. If not, perhaps he's being a cautious town. Either way, I'm keeping a reserve on my DB read.

Would you kindly share your reads?

[DarknessB]

-vote TheDarkestLight

Do I need to explain this vote? No I don't.
Anyway, I'm going to wait for Calix to respond to my post, but I'm going to wave my Finger of Suspicion in the air at her as earthworm-writhing-in-pain-oddly as I can.

Depending on how my energy holds up tomorrow -I'll be busy- I may simply be lynched before I get a chance to respond.

TOWN

Null
Eggy- been doing a lot of wishy-washy. Can't get a read, but maybe that means that I'm just too paranoid. Would actually recommend you not lynch this guy. Lynch my scum reads after you lynch me if you decide to lynch me.

Scum
Iced_Monopoly- Just watch this guy. I was going to wonder if I wanted to get into reading him further but I ran out of energy. Gut tells me there is something off.

Never Unlucky- If you think my point about the signup page is something I'm just reading too hard into, lynch this guy. Shows NO flexibility. If he does not concede either a. he was being stubborn or b. he was reading my posts wrong OR c. he tries to cover up lynching me by saying that I was just a really bad town YOU LYNCH THIS GUY.

He has been misrepping my points since point one. Don't let him get away with the, "you aren't answering my questions" shtick. It's scummy. Like heck.

Calix- I find her jumping on my train as opportunistic. As a player that has lead many mislynches, some of them on me, I expect her to know better. Doled out a town read onto NU very very early on.

TheDarkestLight- Lurking scum. Only stopped lurking to throw shade on me and jump onto my train. Watch as he justifies my mislynch by saying that I was a bad player.

I would like to hear an explanation of your TDL vote. Also, where are your Town reads exactly? Also, every one of your scumreads has in some way pushed you other than Iced, who hasn't been as active until recently. NU pushed you heavily to start, Calix has spent a lot of time responding to your posts, and TDL commented negatively on your weird Townread of him. Why TDL over Iced, NU, or Calix if you scumread all of them?

[Calix]

I'm not closely familiar with the M-FM -- what do you mean by a fake vote exactly? Also, I feel like TDL has addressed points that were raised on himself. A more scummy TDL would have taken SP's Townread without question. Not sure what you mean by a "team scum agenda" either -- can you explain further?

While I agree on principle that town are more likely to challenge town-reads on themselves than scum, the fact that SP was already under a lot of fire by the time he posted mitigates this. If he had been the first person to do it then it would be a stronger town tell. Mostly an issue of time zones/ availability with determining that, really.

I read TDL as null and lower activity (at least relative to the frantic pace of how games progress these days) is typical of his playstyle. I feel like you are a bit eager to make scumreads without trying to engage with the players in question. Almost comes off like "please let me push a lynch that doesn't involve me". I'd almost characterize it as survivalistic to some extent.

Almost almost almost - I'll take unnecessary hedging for £200, Alex.

I don't understand why you don't try to engage TDL vs. immediately jumping to preferring a lynch on him. He had a reaction to your Townread on him and I don't feel like you took that opportunity to ask him questions to try to hone your read. I have this impression that you arrive at your reads first and then try to justify them to us after the fact, which I don't like.

This point about static reads/ lack of progression is decent, however.

I'm confused with the dash here -- are you encouraging TDL to vote SP? Also, if SP is "just plain bad", but not scum then we would we want to lynch him? Not understanding what you are trying to suggest here.

Think you misinterpreted that quote. The "TDL - blah blah blah" was Spruance paraphrasing a post made by TDL. Spruance's comment is "you're not helping yourself"

[DarknessB]

DB, while you're here, what do you think of hits paragraph I made about you?

Would you kindly share your reads?

TBH, I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting given this game doesn't have a Neutral (unlike IC). I tend to be a bit more clinical / methodical in my posts, especially to start games, until / unless I'm pushed for crappy reasons and then I get pissed off at the terrible logic. Take a look at IC or Return to Normalcy for examples. In IC, I was pissed off for a while between the Kovath / Calix ridiculous shade and then Spruance blow darting me for no particular reason / because I was an experienced player even though he actually scumread Eggy.

My current reads list (in order of most likely Town to least likely Town):

Town:
Calix: Has been a fairly equal opportunity pusher and has made very logical points in her responses -- i.e. not low blows or misreps. Seems more interested in the why as opposed to pushing an agenda.
Never Unlucky: Very methodical in his posts, has called out a number of inconsistencies from other players, mainly SP. Seems eager to engage different players and keep conversation moving forward.
Unknown: Willing to approach things from a contrarian point of view and raise points outside of what is currently being discussed (e.g. his having flagged issues on Iced and Eggy).

Null:
Eggy: On the plus side, he seems willing to evaluate his views as the game goes on. On the minus side, could be testing the water on certain lynches (e.g. Mesk or NU), but withdrawing those views if they do not pick up traction to avoid the spotlight.
TDL: Has not contributed much, which may be partially due to playstyle or the fact that games these days are flooded with posts. Did not blindly accept SP's odd Townread of him, which is a plus.

Null/Scum:
Mesk: Somewhat standoffish and does not seem eager to participate, though this is indicative of her meta. The lack of "I am Town" was a bit odd, but later remedied apparently (though we have yet to hear much else). Possible lurking groupscum for sure.
Iced Monopoly: Was unusually defensive when Unknown pushed him for not being active. Seemed to be advocating forming trains for the sake of forming trains as opposed to pursuing his own scumreads. Unknown's point about alignment and lurking isn't an entirely unfair one.
Spruance: Has made some odd comments (even by his own standards) with respect to TDL and SP. Seems odd to me to advocate a lynch on TDL when he has contributed less himself. Doesn't seem to be quite as liberal with his votes compared to other games, perhaps based on knowing roles if he's scum.

Scum:
Secondpassing: Where do I start? Seems to have multiple inconsistent explanations for things like votes. Very reactive and only seems to scumread those who scumread him. His sign-up thread explanation almost seems like a desperate attempt to deflect attention off his other arguments and perhaps pivot attention away from his earlier NU vote. Has not really explained his curent vote.

[Calix]

I agree that the reads chart is useful, but I would caution people at concluding alignment based upon maintaining fancy charts, as opposed to using the charts as tools for discussion. I believe that Calix and others have said in the past that they regarded this as a Town-tell -- same with keeping VCAs. Iced isn't a dumb player and I imagine he realizes this.

I recall that Kovath used one of his giant reads charts in Politico where he was scum. Regardless of intent, they're useful to see the bigger picture and perhaps see what the creator does with such information.

Eggy has been curiously under the radar given the SP-NU clash which has occupied much of Day 1. In fact, I don't think anyone has given much of a read on him, perhaps due to a lack of activity. Eggy and Mesk have a weird Day 1 meta deal that seems to come up during a lot of games though. Makes me uncomfortable.

If it's something that they do a lot (which it is) why would it make you uncomfortable?

The flip side of this is that Eggy tends to start games more slowly, but he has successfully been under the radar to begin this one. I don't blame him for not having much to say on TDL -- TDL hasn't said much this game himself and everything he has said has been fairly self-evident. Like questioning SP's odd Townread on him. Are there any posts of Eggy's that ping you the wrong way? I will take a look myself too.

Call me cocky but I doubt that Eggy's alignment will be difficult to determine. I'm not worried there.

You gave town points for TDL questioning the town-read and now you classify it as self-evident? (implying that it's not worth much) Where do you stand on that point?

[Calix]

In IC, I was pissed off for a while between the Kovath / Calix ridiculous shade and then Spruance blow darting me for no particular reason / because I was an experienced player even though he actually scumread Eggy.

Shows how much Spruance knows, thinking you're 'experienced'

Calix: Has been a fairly equal opportunity pusher and has made very logical points in her responses -- i.e. not low blows or misreps. Seems more interested in the why as opposed to pushing an agenda.

Can you expand more on that last sentence, preferably with examples.

Unknown doesn't strike me as a contrarian, although his points against Eggy go against the grain. What precisely gives you that impression?

You go "ah yes Eggy does this and that" but you don't give a conclusion.

As I said earlier, defensiveness isn't a scum tell taken by itself although it is strange. What about it with Iced makes you think it's scummy though?

Valid point about the trains.

'not entirely unfair' - Again with the hedging.

[Unknown1234]

I've been hearing a lot of talk about how "Eggy always plays like this" same with Mesk and Never Unlucky. I don't know if people can't place Secondpassing, but my problem is that Secondpassing just seems unsure of what to do, which to me feels fairly similar to the games they've played in around my time. I cannot comment on direct posts because it's really hard for me right now but I think it is worth looking into how Secondpassing plays as town.

[Calix]

I've been hearing a lot of talk about how "Eggy always plays like this" same with Mesk and Never Unlucky. I don't know if people can't place Secondpassing, but my problem is that Secondpassing just seems unsure of what to do, which to me feels fairly similar to the games they've played in around my time. I cannot comment on direct posts because it's really hard for me right now but I think it is worth looking into how Secondpassing plays as town.

From what I know, he used to impersonate different playstyles (similar to you) and he's taken some inspiration from MS this game, so he doesn't have an established town/ scum meta.

You sounds like you're drunk so not really sure what your point was to begin with.

[Unknown1234]

Never Unlucky, I almost laughed at how you said I can't read and then comment on something I already clarified. It's moments like these that make me realize even more how your strategy fails.

I was looking at the chart wrong, and I stated this to Iced. For whatever reason, I thought the chart listed the four players, and the people who town/scum read one another. When I realized I was wrong, I can point out that a lot of what I had said with Iced will not make much sense, so I will apologize.

It's still not a good chart. My problem with these kinds of things is that it only talks/comments on certain players. Why us four were the only ones chosen? I don't know, maybe not enough information but I think enough could be picked up on it anyways.

Another major comment is that Iced didn't even put his own opinion in. That seems wrong and that its holding on to opinions we don't have.

[Unknown1234]

From what I know, he used to impersonate different playstyles (similar to you) and he's taken some inspiration from MS this game, so he doesn't have an established town/ scum meta.

You sounds like you're drunk so not really sure what your point was to begin with.

My point was that people don't really seem to be actually considering his meta, where as with everyone else there is no issue.

My thinking process is very flawed, yes, and I can't really control my injury. Getting checked soon so hopefully not bad.

[Calix]

Never Unlucky, I almost laughed at how you said I can't read and then comment on something I already clarified. It's moments like these that make me realize even more how your strategy fails.

I was looking at the chart wrong, and I stated this to Iced. For whatever reason, I thought the chart listed the four players, and the people who town/scum read one another. When I realized I was wrong, I can point out that a lot of what I had said with Iced will not make much sense, so I will apologize.

It's still not a good chart. My problem with these kinds of things is that it only talks/comments on certain players. Why us four were the only ones chosen? I don't know, maybe not enough information but I think enough could be picked up on it anyways.

Another major comment is that Iced didn't even put his own opinion in. That seems wrong and that its holding on to opinions we don't have.

I laugh at how you somehow missed that Iced included all of the players who...gave reads lists, which is painfully obvious to begin with. What is your point?

[Unknown1234]

Wait what? Eggy back flipped on his 99% mesk confirmed scum without her re-appearing or posting?
I clearly missed this, the fuck is he doing, do you have a post #

I feel suspicious about Eggy. Even with acknowledgement, nobody seems to find his shifting of opinion to be sketchy at all and labels it "his meta"

[Calix]

My point was that people don't really seem to be actually considering his meta, where as with everyone else there is no issue.

My thinking process is very flawed, yes, and I can't really control my injury. Getting checked soon so hopefully not bad.

He doesn't play often so few people are aware of his meta to begin with. No secret there. I've probably played with him the most out of everyone here.

I don't think brain damage is something you'll ever have to worry about ;)

[Unknown1234]

I laugh at how you somehow missed that Iced included all of the players who...gave reads lists, which is painfully obvious to begin with. What is your point?

I don't like the chart. It looks like it's giving information but in reality all it does is post other people's reads. Aren't you yourself interested in who Iced town/scum reads?

[Calix]

I feel suspicious about Eggy. Even with acknowledgement, nobody seems to find his shifting of opinion to be sketchy at all and labels it "his meta"

Why do you think that SP's reams of scummy-ass behaviour can be explained by meta, yet Eggy's jumpy read progression (a far less significant point in comparison) can't be explained in the same way?

[Calix]

Fuck, we're doing the "respond to multiple posts by the same person" thing. Just gonna wait until you've finished.

[Unknown1234]

Why do you think that SP's reams of scummy-ass behaviour can be explained by meta, yet Eggy's jumpy read progression (a far less significant point in comparison) can't be explained in the same way?

But that isn't the point I am suggesting. It's not right to use meta to defend Eggy when Secondpassing won't get it the same. The whole point of defending Eggy is wrong.

I don't know, it's hard to remember everything but I feel more against Eggy then Secondpassing. Not to mention the lack of disapproval for his train, even if they wanted him under the bus having one scum lynched is brutal because there is no point unless both Mafia are coordinating a lynch on their teammate. Eggy has gotten a lot less suspicion then I would like.

[DarknessB]

Thoughts below:

I recall that Kovath used one of his giant reads charts in Politico where he was scum. Regardless of intent, they're useful to see the bigger picture and perhaps see what the creator does with such information.

Yeah, I just wanted to flag the point that has come up a couple of times this game -- the idea that contribution isn't a good indicator of alignment, especially since the issue has been debated several times this game alone. Some people (in particular, SP) are scumreading people for not contributing (e.g. TDL) and NU seemed to view Iced's posting of the reads chart favorably.

If it's something that they do a lot (which it is) why would it make you uncomfortable?

Uncomfortable in the sense that neither of them has participated much today and both have avoided much scrutiny, other than Eggy's initial push on Mesk that no one seemed to pay much attention to. Other players with pronounced buddying dynamics like ika / SW have tended to be more active in games together so at least their relationship could be analyzed more. It's the combination of the lower participation and odd reads on each other that worries me.

Call me cocky but I doubt that Eggy's alignment will be difficult to determine. I'm not worried there.

To be fair, Eggy was scum in IC, and no one other than me really made a push on him, and it was too late by the time that happened.

You gave town points for TDL questioning the town-read and now you classify it as self-evident? (implying that it's not worth much) Where do you stand on that point?

Very minor Town points only in the sense that it was TDL taking an action that seemed reasonable. He's an experienced player and I think calling out the read for what it was (without basis) was a reasonable thing to do regardless of alignment. At the very least, it got a bit more discussion out about how / why SP was making the read.

[Calix]

I don't like the chart. It looks like it's giving information but in reality all it does is post other people's reads. Aren't you yourself interested in who Iced town/scum reads?

Okay, so IIOA.

He's posted some thoughts on other players so I don't feel the need for a reads list from him. Since you are apparently incapable of functioning without drooling all over the thread, want me to quote them for you and see wherever your complaint still stands?

But that isn't the point I am suggesting. It's not right to use meta to defend Eggy when Secondpassing won't get it the same. The whole point of defending Eggy is wrong.

I don't know, it's hard to remember everything but I feel more against Eggy then Secondpassing. Not to mention the lack of disapproval for his train, even if they wanted him under the bus having one scum lynched is brutal because there is no point unless both Mafia are coordinating a lynch on their teammate. Eggy has gotten a lot less suspicion then I would like.

SP's meta in no way justifies the reams of contradictions and bizarre reads that don't add up whatsoever. Let me tell you that now.

We're not switching trains onto someone with 4 hours left.

[DarknessB]

But that isn't the point I am suggesting. It's not right to use meta to defend Eggy when Secondpassing won't get it the same. The whole point of defending Eggy is wrong.

I don't know, it's hard to remember everything but I feel more against Eggy then Secondpassing. Not to mention the lack of disapproval for his train, even if they wanted him under the bus having one scum lynched is brutal because there is no point unless both Mafia are coordinating a lynch on their teammate. Eggy has gotten a lot less suspicion then I would like.

I haven't found a ton in Eggy's posts that can be analyzed that deeply, which is largely due to his posts being very quippy and one-off this game (perhaps being inebriated?) vs. SP's posts which have gone in far greater detail. That having been said, if you feel like there's a good case on Eggy, then please go ahead and make it / post an ISO with your explanations of why he's scum.

[Unknown1234]

I haven't found a ton in Eggy's posts that can be analyzed that deeply, which is largely due to his posts being very quippy and one-off this game (perhaps being inebriated?) vs. SP's posts which have gone in far greater detail. That having been said, if you feel like there's a good case on Eggy, then please go ahead and make it / post an ISO with your explanations of why he's scum.

I don't have a computer with me, and I don't have the time which is why I've been so out of it currently.

[DarknessB]

I haven't found a ton in Eggy's posts that can be analyzed that deeply, which is largely due to his posts being very quippy and one-off this game (perhaps being inebriated?) vs. SP's posts which have gone in far greater detail. That having been said, if you feel like there's a good case on Eggy, then please go ahead and make it / post an ISO with your explanations of why he's scum.

Crap, there are only four hours left in the day? I think this might be a better item for tomorrow then given Eggy has barely been discussed in this game and sudden EOD changes in lynches rarely work out well.

[Calix]

Also is it just me or is SP around? It says he's viewing the thread on the 'Who's Online' feature but he doesn't show up when you look at the thread information at the bottom of the page.

[DarknessB]

Also is it just me or is SP around? It says he's viewing the thread on the 'Who's Online' feature but he doesn't show up when you look at the thread information at the bottom of the page.

I think it's a site glitch of some sort -- from my end, I also seem him listed under Who's Online viewing the thread, but not under this Thread Information below. Given his timestamp is relatively current, I think it's safe to conclude he's around.

[DarknessB]

I don't have a computer with me, and I don't have the time which is why I've been so out of it currently.

Understood -- given it's almost EOD, probably better for you to put that together for tomorrow regardless. I don't see Eggy around and flipping a train on him with such little time left won't give us enough time to discuss.

[Unknown1234]

Okay, so IIOA.

He's posted some thoughts on other players so I don't feel the need for a reads list from him. Since you are apparently incapable of functioning without drooling all over the thread, want me to quote them for you and see wherever your complaint still stands?



SP's meta in no way justifies the reams of contradictions and bizarre reads that don't add up whatsoever. Let me tell you that now.

We're not switching trains onto someone with 4 hours left.

What does IIOA mean?

I don't get it. I've posted some thoughts as well, but it is still okay to have my reads list. You say it's good to have it all in one post for clarification, so this argument is really flawed. Why not add more information if we have it?

Did he share his thoughts before or after that post? I don't even remember.

I don't have a good reason to town-read him, but I've never had a good reason, and he's usually town.

I lost track of time.

[Unknown1234]

-vote secondpassing

[DarknessB]

What does IIOA mean?

I don't get it. I've posted some thoughts as well, but it is still okay to have my reads list. You say it's good to have it all in one post for clarification, so this argument is really flawed. Why not add more information if we have it?

Did he share his thoughts before or after that post? I don't even remember.

I don't have a good reason to town-read him, but I've never had a good reason, and he's usually town.

I lost track of time.

IIOA is Information Instead of Analysis, which typically means referring to something about the nature of the setup or background information instead of discussing your actual reads / opinions on the players. I went into this a little bit before, but it was odd that Iced sort of plopped down that chart and didn't really give any value-add of his own other than literally stating some basic patterns that he saw (most people scumread Calix, TDL, and Iced, for example). IIOA is a mild scum tell in terms of a player being afraid / reluctant to jump into actual reads of players. It's also a bit lazy in terms of just placing that information and relying on other people to do the analytical legwork.

[Never Unlucky]

Never Unlucky, I almost laughed at how you said I can't read and then comment on something I already clarified. It's moments like these that make me realize even more how your strategy fails.

"almost laughed at you" -- Pitiful attempt at being an asshole, rofl.

I know you clarified that you couldn't read a basic chart later on; I make my posts as I catch up, isn't it obvious? I saw your clarification after making my post.

It's still not a good chart. My problem with these kinds of things is that it only talks/comments on certain players. Why us four were the only ones chosen? I don't know, maybe not enough information but I think enough could be picked up on it anyways.

Because we were the only ones (Other than Iced himself) who had given a reads list at the time...

Another major comment is that Iced didn't even put his own opinion in. That seems wrong and that its holding on to opinions we don't have.

-

[Calix]

What does IIOA mean?

I don't get it. I've posted some thoughts as well, but it is still okay to have my reads list. You say it's good to have it all in one post for clarification, so this argument is really flawed. Why not add more information if we have it?

Did he share his thoughts before or after that post? I don't even remember.

I don't have a good reason to town-read him, but I've never had a good reason, and he's usually town.

I lost track of time.

No, I meant "do you want me to find Iced's posts with his reads/ thoughts on players" - you said you hadn't checked the thread yet and asked "don't you want to know his thoughts"

Alignments in past games do not have any relation to alignments in this game, otherwise I'd be confirmed town because I never fucking roll scum anymore.

[Calix]

Instead of dicking around, want to explain that 'scum-read' of me from before, Unknown? I'm right here.

SP, I see you too.

[secondpassing]

He has his moments as town, rare as they are. I've yet to see a decent scum performance from him.

Those town moments are only from my most boring games.

No, fucktard. He literally told me on Skype why he unsigned, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

Stop using other game threads for your reads.

Ok

I was the third person to vote you and I used my own reasoning for it across multiple posts (to use your own wording) while following up on it. (as proven here) Explain how that is characteristic of me 'hopping onto a train' or admit that you're misrepresenting my vote to discredit it.

I never try to misrep people intentionally. I think I tried once as witch in Insanity, didn't even have an affect. I'll explain it anyway.

Sure, I exihbit a lot of scum tells, doesn't mean they are scum motivated. Being survivalistic, counter scum-reading, and giving quick reads on people could seem like good reasons for someone to be scum, but they could be just me trying to win as town.

So yet another person siding with you is Town? This is the most survivalistic play I've seen since Improv Mafia, something that becomes even more damning in a setup where only 2/3 Mafia have to die for them to lose.

I'm facing my mislynch. It's my responsibility to not get mislynched.

Yes, can you explain why those points aren't NAI? I think (?) that you scum-read TDL now but if you are going to reveal what you look for in a town read, you should try and explain your reasoning more.

This is like kicking a dead corpse. I read TDL as town initially due to the happy eyes he posted and the theory spec he posted. I like theory spec, I think its a sort of a town tell.
As for the happiness part, in retrospect, it might have been a weaker point. Personally, I like playing town way more than playing as scum, so therefore I should be happier.

I get it that people don't try to read lurkers, but I do because you can. I didn't try to push this town-read.

Scum not wanting town to town-read each other does NOT justify town-reading people because they town-read you. That's survival-orientated because it comes from a mindset where you only care about your reputation in the thread which is exactly what scum would do.

I did not equate those two together. I'm explaining why scum are on my train. Scum are on my train because
1. I exhibit many scum tells, and it would be easy getting a mislynch off without looking too suspicious.
2. They fear the town-bloc that is coming together.

Town should care about their reputation in the thread. Why do you think people care so much about misreps? They don't want their reputation to be marred.

Lurking isn't alignment-indicative and you've seen enough town-aligned lurkers in game to realise this. I also would not characterise TDL's vote as 'jumping onto your train' as it happened AFTER he interacted with you. (aka there was PROGRESSION from him entering the thread to him voting)

If we're talking about the Lurking = Scum thing, sure I can let that up; however, he didn't just lurk, he lurked for a while and then voted me. He even gives himself a way out by calling me 'bad'.
Almost no scum is going to come out of lurking just to drop a naked vote. They would need to make something up and call that the reason.

Sometimes, you can't get this "progression" in your reads. Look at your read on TDL, if I'm correct, it was at null and is still at null. How come you haven't progressed this read? It's because you have a different playstyle.

Why is TDL Scum?
1. Lurked
2. Came out of lurking to vote me

Contrast this with

Ernest Starvo Blofeld(SuperJack)	TheDarkestLight
1. Posted fluff	Didn't post
2. Came out of fluff to give a reads list (appearance of townness)	Came out of lurking to ask questions (appearance of townness)
3. Countered my townread of his to be buddying	Said I was bad and voted me

[Unknown1234]

Oh right, I guess I forgot but NU's /unsign was explained In our chat IIRC, not that it matters but the argument was useless to begin with.

I have to go now, don't know when I'll be back.

[secondpassing]

Does anyone have more vote counts? I've only complied 3 during the time I was here.

Spoiler : Spoiler :

secondpassing (1 [L-5]):
Iced_Monopoly
TheDarkestLight (1 [L-5]):
Calix
Calix (1 [L-5]):
TheDarkestLight
Spruance (1 [L-5]):
DarknessB
Mesk514 (1 [L-5]):
secondpassing

secondpassing (3 [L-3]):
Iced_Monopoly, Calix, Never Unlucky
Calix (1 [L-5]):
TheDarkestLight
Spruance (1 [L-5]):
DarknessB
Never Unlucky (3 [L-3]):
secondpassing, Eggy, Mesk514

Never Unlucky (3 [L-3]):
Iced_Monopoly, Eggy, Mesk514
secondpassing (3 [L-3]):
Calix, TheDarkestLight, Never Unlucky
Spruance (1 [L-5]):
DarknessB
Calix (1 [L-5]):
secondpassing
TheDarkestLight (1 [L-5]):
Spruance

[Calix]

I never try to misrep people intentionally. I think I tried once as witch in Insanity, didn't even have an affect. I'll explain it anyway.

Sure, I exihbit a lot of scum tells, doesn't mean they are scum motivated. Being survivalistic, counter scum-reading, and giving quick reads on people could seem like good reasons for someone to be scum, but they could be just me trying to win as town.

You sound like Unknown. "Just because I'm scummy doesn't make me scum"



You haven't explained why those traits come from a town mindset over a scum one, so your point is invalid.

I've been on about the town!TDL read because of the gap between reasoning and confidence and I've asked about WHY you consider those pointers to be town tells...which you haven't done (until now with the 'I like being town so everyone else must think this way' which is flawed for the same reason that NU's "I did this as scum so you're scum for doing this" reasoning is)

As a side note, TDL prefers being scum. I'm not using this as a point because I think your point is stupid to begin with.

Again, his inactivity wasn't why I took issue with it. It was the reasoning.

I did not equate those two together. I'm explaining why scum are on my train. Scum are on my train because
1. I exhibit many scum tells, and it would be easy getting a mislynch off without looking too suspicious.
2. They fear the town-bloc that is coming together.

It's Day 1 - there isn't a town bloc because not enough information exists for one to have formed yet.

You admit to scummy behaviour and say that only scum would vote you...implying that the town wouldn't vote for scummy players...? wut

Town should care about their reputation in the thread. Why do you think people care so much about misreps? They don't want their reputation to be marred.

You say this, and you are aware that you 'exhibit many scum tells'...yet you continue to do them...?

If we're talking about the Lurking = Scum thing, sure I can let that up; however, he didn't just lurk, he lurked for a while and then voted me. He even gives himself a way out by calling me 'bad'.
Almost no scum is going to come out of lurking just to drop a naked vote. They would need to make something up and call that the reason.

I disagree. He interacted with you first and unless you are saying that he painted your responses as scummy, his vote isn't particularly AI to me.

Sometimes, you can't get this "progression" in your reads. Look at your read on TDL, if I'm correct, it was at null and is still at null. How come you haven't progressed this read? It's because you have a different playstyle.[/quote]

No, it's because he hasn't done anything AI in my eyes. I don't have many static reads.

What does SJ's play have to do with TDL's play?

Again with the "voting me makes you scum" shtick.

[Never Unlucky]

To be fair, Eggy was scum in IC, and no one other than me really made a push on him, and it was too late by the time that happened.

zzz...

Very minor Town points only in the sense that it was TDL taking an action that seemed reasonable. He's an experienced player and I think calling out the read for what it was (without basis) was a reasonable thing to do regardless of alignment. At the very least, it got a bit more discussion out about how / why SP was making the read.

I don't think this behavior is worth any town points. It could be a scum trying to dissociate himself from his scum partner who fucked up for all we know.

He's posted some thoughts on other players so I don't feel the need for a reads list from him. Since you are apparently incapable of functioning without drooling all over the thread, want me to quote them for you and see wherever your complaint still stands?

He's made a list earlier iirc.

We're not switching trains onto someone with 4 hours left.

Don't see why not. I’d prefer lynching TDL at the moment.
I also feel like trolling again.

[secondpassing]

POST

Let's just simplify this, since I want to get on with the Eggy ISO I've been procrastinating about.

If you look HARD enough, everyone exhibits scum tells. Again, I'm only asking you to considering why they do so.
Why is that a scum tell?
What agenda are they pushing?
Do I agree with it?

You've been convinced I was scum, which is either clouding your judgment, or that you are scum yourself and you are pushing my lynch. Posting only to appear you have countered what I have said.
I read poor intent from you.

[Calix]

"trolling"

Don't you fucking dare. We've actually had a game that's been relatively shitpost-free so far.

Go watch tentacle porn or something.

[Calix]

Let's just simplify this, since I want to get on with the Eggy ISO I've been procrastinating about.

Much as ignoring the damning points against you is insane, I'd rather see your reads at this point.

If you look HARD enough, everyone exhibits scum tells. Again, I'm only asking you to considering why they do so.
Why is that a scum tell?
What agenda are they pushing?
Do I agree with it?

You've been convinced I was scum, which is either clouding your judgment, or that you are scum yourself and you are pushing my lynch. Posting only to appear you have countered what I have said.
I read poor intent from you.

Yes, I am aware of the basics of scum-hunting.

You say that I am "convinced" you are scum (implying I am being genuine) and then you backtrack from that by saying that I've ONLY posted to counter you? Nice consistency with your read there.

A quick glance at the top of the page is enough to disprove that. What was that about misrepresentations again?

[deathworlds]

"trolling"

Don't you fucking dare. We've actually had a game that's been relatively shitpost-free so far.

Go watch tentacle porn or something.

Found me a new siggy to replace the old one.

[secondpassing]

Much as ignoring the damning points against you is insane, I'd rather see your reads at this point.



Yes, I am aware of the basics of scum-hunting.

You say that I am "convinced" you are scum (implying I am being genuine) and then you backtrack from that by saying that I've ONLY posted to counter you? Nice consistency with your read there.

A quick glance at the top of the page is enough to disprove that. What was that about misrepresentations again?

I've already given my reads. If you want me to spew some fluff about my town reads, I can do that. I'd rather not.

There is no back track in that sentence. It's either you are convinced that I am scum -- OR -- you are scum, replying to my posts only to counter me.

I don't get where this top of the page refers to.

[secondpassing]

#75 Read List NU + Mesk are scum
#79 Doesn't have a judge against NU, feels NU is discrediting
#82 #83 Thinks NU is too stubborn to be town "he would have given up by now"
#104 Meta scum reads Mesk
#105 Mesk is scum// would vote secondpassing before NU <-change in reads
#107 New scum list Mesk, Iced, sp <-change in reads he's not sure
#108 "Anyone town reading Mesk? Why is sp scummy?"
#109 Mesk hopped on NU's train, meta is very on point
#113 Dislike secondpassing train, thinks rest on NU's train are scum(?)
#114 Likes Calix's information
#115 Doesn't mind lynching secondpassing now
#116 Don't lynch NU, his train is bad

Summary- while he changes his reads often, nothing strikes me as particularly scum-like. In later posts, he says that- he has been on my side the whole time.
While this is not true, he probably just made a mistake.

If he was scum, I think he would have focused to try to make himself look more consistent.
Think I'm going to give him a town lean for now.

Spoiler : Quotes of Mr. Eggy :

It was a joke lol RVS I dont see what the problem is.

Anyway I am pretty confident after reading these few pages that NU is actually scum. He is tunneling second passing for absloutley nothing from what I can see. I find it scummy to cling to something posted on the first page and try to paint it as a slip. I also dont think second passing is scummy whats so ever so as far as im concerned this arguement is TVT or its scum vs town with NU being town.

I know its early in the game but Im pretty sure I kno who 2 of the scum are being NU and mesk.


Mesk has not posted anything that reminds me of her normal town play and since I was scum with her last game I know her scum play pretty well. She normally contributes more than she has so far. And like unknown said. She hasnt even said her "always town stuff" I feel like NU could have jumped on Second passing to defend mesk since he had just voted her.

I think we should lynch NU then Mesk=GG

Anyway im off ill be back on tmrw.

Reads:

Town:
Unknown
Secondpassing
DB
maybe calix

Scum:
Nu
Mesk

Null everyone else

Ill be back tmrw.

[

I dont have a grudge with NU? I just think he is very good and this game I find him scummy for the reasons ive stated. From what i've seen day one slips are not really that much of a thing and
are usually used by scum to push a mislynch. Like what happened in instant mafia. I have no hard feelings towards NU I just dont like his playstyle. He has a way of discrediting things that strikes me as anti town

I dont like his play style? I wont let that cloud my judgement lol. If I thought he was town id have unvoted by now. I dont understand why I even have to explain this, more than anything I want to win lol.

Anyway I gotta go foreal. Ill b back on tmrw. The main reason I find NU scummy is cus hes pushing something as if it was a slip when it doesnt like it was to me. I feel like town would have given up on that already. Also he seemed to have got involved in the argument to defend mesk maybe and she is probably my strongest scum read. They seemed to both ignore eachother.

Mesk has not posted alot but she is my strongest scum read. Her play seems very off from what she normally does. She has not even said she is town yet. Maybe because she was scum last game so she knows people will question it. I still think thst a scum read is not based off of activity but more individual posts.

I think you should hop on the mesk train. I am 99% sure she is scum. If it doesnt seem like its going throught ill vote secondpassing before NU.
The quality of people voting him has me very concerned.

Scum right now.

Mesk

Iced monopoly.

Maybe secondpassing im not sure.

Why do you scumread second passing? The only thing ai find fishy is people I think are scum siding with him and voting NU based on nothing substanial really. I havnt found anything he has said to be particualarly scummy. Another question. Is anyone town reading mesk?

she seemed to hop on the Nu train without much thought given to it all. much like yourself. I feel like it is exactly what I would do if I was scum. I never should have started that train tbh. Also I believe my judge of mesks meta is very on point. being as I have played more with her than anyone else. and I just played a game with her as my scum buddy. her current play reminds me off the begginer game very much. she has not done anything that typical town mesk does in the beggining of the game. I am very confident she is scum.

I dislike the second passing train. mesk was my strongest scum read. NU was the person applying pressure to secondpassing he did nothing scummy ither than clinging to a very small detail from the first page and rolling with it for way to long. then all of a sudden iced and mesk jumped on the NU train without much explination. I dont see the town motive behind it. to me it seems like they are trying to save one of their own and hiding behind the fact me and second passing voted him first to sort of blend it and push a mislynch. I feel like town would definately take more time to chose between the 2. especially since iced put him at L-2. none of their explanations for why they voted him seemed sincere. it is more of a gut feeling than anything else at this point.

Alright I am more satisfied with this explanation than anything mesk or iced has given so far. This strikes me as honnest to god town motivated descision instead of trying to shift the attention onto someone else.

Im going to sleep so Ill be back tomorrow afternoon I suggest you try and strike this conversation with second it might be quite informative. I dont mind lynching him either. I just much rather see mesk hang. much like how she was able to tell I was scum in IC first. I think I am able to tell she is scum now. If people would just take my advice, im positive it would lead to the desired results

Im warning people do not push NU based off who is voting him im pretty sure he is town right now.(sorry for leading this train NU) it was not warranted. he definately should not be the lynch for today. If he is im pretty sure that all 3 people who are voting him right now is the scum team(or atleast 2 of them) which would be really stupid on their part but I cant say I would be suprised.

[Never Unlucky]

ATTENTION EVERYONE! CALIX AND I ARE STARTING A TOWN-BLOC. TO ENTER, REPLY TO THIS POST.

Found me a new siggy to replace the old one.

Lel, Calix is awesome.

There is no back track in that sentence. It's either you are convinced that I am scum -- OR -- you are scum, replying to my posts only to counter me.

[DarknessB]

Don't see why not. I’d prefer lynching TDL at the moment.

Why do you think TDL would be a preferable lynch to SP? I don't recall you having scumread TDL before, but I might have missed that in the thread.

[Calix]

I've already given my reads. If you want me to spew some fluff about my town reads, I can do that. I'd rather not.

There is no back track in that sentence. It's either you are convinced that I am scum -- OR -- you are scum, replying to my posts only to counter me.

I don't get where this top of the page refers to.

Given that you're dying at the moment, going into more detail/ making cases = good. So yeah, not interested in continuing this when you could be doing that.

You said "Posting only to appear you have countered what I have said." and that reads as if I only post to talk about you, which is blatantly untrue.

If your page setting is put at anything less than 50 posts per page, you didn't get hugged enough as a child

[Calix]

Found me a new siggy to replace the old one.

Twice in a row. I'm on a roll with these.

#75 Read List NU + Mesk are scum
#79 Doesn't have a judge against NU, feels NU is discrediting
#82 #83 Thinks NU is too stubborn to be town "he would have given up by now"
#104 Meta scum reads Mesk
#105 Mesk is scum// would vote secondpassing before NU <-change in reads
#107 New scum list Mesk, Iced, sp <-change in reads he's not sure
#108 "Anyone town reading Mesk? Why is sp scummy?"
#109 Mesk hopped on NU's train, meta is very on point
#113 Dislike secondpassing train, thinks rest on NU's train are scum(?)
#114 Likes Calix's information
#115 Doesn't mind lynching secondpassing now
#116 Don't lynch NU, his train is bad

Summary- while he changes his reads often, nothing strikes me as particularly scum-like.

Does anything strike you as town? What makes you conclude 'not scum'?

In later posts, he says that- he has been on my side the whole time.
While this is not true, he probably just made a mistake.

Again, why?

Inconsistency is a common scum tell on this site, given the quality of the player base here.

[secondpassing]

Twice in a row. I'm on a roll with these.



Does anything strike you as town? What makes you conclude 'not scum'?



Again, why?

Inconsistency is a common scum tell on this site, given the quality of the player base here.

I get kind of tired posting with you sometimes, I'm sure you feel the same way.
For everyone elses benefit-

Eggy claimed he had started the Mesk and the Never Unlucky train in other posts. This is untrue because
Mesk never had a train. Never Unlucky was first voted by me.

To claim that he had started the train , in my mind is so blatantly wrong that I think he simply overlooked who else was voting them.
He would have paid more attention if he was scum.

Inconsistency =/= Scum

[Never Unlucky]

Why do you think TDL would be a preferable lynch to SP? I don't recall you having scumread TDL before, but I might have missed that in the thread.

There's this part of me that thinks that SP is town due to his tone and due to the shitty "too dumb/scum to be scum" narrative. SP is record-breaking stupid this game.

TDL is playing very similarly to MattZed in IC in my eyes. He's been lurking, I find his interactions with Calix and SP weird (Alike MattZed when he told you "Let's not argue and cause a TvT fight that will ruin the game...), and his reply to my reads list felt scummy to me as he threw shade on me and didn't have a town tone in that post.

I know I'm being nit-picky here, but I advise you read this post I'm talking about and tell me if you agree with me.


@Ssecondpassing Why did you quote so many of Eggy's posts without commenting on them? What was your point?

[Calix]

I get kind of tired posting with you sometimes, I'm sure you feel the same way.

As with many things, you'd be wrong.

For everyone elses benefit-

Eggy claimed he had started the Mesk and the Never Unlucky train in other posts. This is untrue because
Mesk never had a train. Never Unlucky was first voted by me.

To claim that he had started the train , in my mind is so blatantly wrong that I think he simply overlooked who else was voting them.
He would have paid more attention if he was scum.

Inconsistency =/= Scum

Mesk had Spruance and Eggy voting for her at one point, so Eggy is actually correct.

The fact that you manage to botch up the ENTIRE PREMISE of your read just makes me laugh.