S-FM 355: Nonstandard Roles 3

[scumbot5679]

not that anyone cares what I say but the EOD was odd yesterday. After doing his best Chris Crocker impression, MM voted Hou after expressing some interest in us not voting there. Although looking back he doesn't seem as opposed as I first thought but it's still sort of just fence sitting.

Voting the uwu spam slot into oblivion on D1 seems like a good way to have very little information because it's not the kind of slot that will create very interesting or analysable interactions imo, so I'm not against the concept, even though I don't particularly townread them

Part of me just wants to think that MM and Martin finally saw the light after no selling my case earlier but a more cynical view is that they knew I'd be hard pushing Huo today, regardless of Bake's flip and they wanted to endear themselves to me. I mean, it's just so odd to me that they said 0 about my case on Huo and then voted there?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Ah yes, so we've got annoying lynch control mechanics. F u n.

I suspect the bounty hunter would want to lay low, since pretty much all he has to do is survive. @Luka this is my terribly subtle way to ask you for reads with some pressure on you

Also, considering Helz is alive, it's safe to assume Werewolf does not exist (it goes before Bounty Hunter in the OoO, so there was no Werewolf kill stopped by BH). It's not too far-fetched to assume there is one neutral who can solo win (BH) and two neutrals who do their own things (Ghost, Monk, Wild Card).

Still think Huo or Lily would've been better lynches, btw. RIP Baker

[scumbot5679]

-vote Huo Huo and Mr Tail

[Mizery]

didn't feel like podracing so i wouldn't be suprised if oli and huo huo are v,

if so that ups wolf equity in lily and auwt for sitting on vanity wagons and not really caring about who died, but also if v/v/v wagons wolves are more likely to have voted than not since they wouldn't want to miss an opportunity by accidentally just skipping day.

Huo Huo and Mr Tail (3): Marshmallow Marshall, MartinGG99, bwcPorscha
oliverz144 (3): bakermir, Huo Huo and Mr Tail, Helz
bakermir (4): oliverz144, Mizery, scumbot5679, Cape90
Marshmallow Marshall (1): Auwt
Cape90 (1): Lilypetal
Skip Day (3): Luka; Dark Magician; Varcron

so then if we assume v/v/v wagons then we can assume ~one evil on each wagon with possible 6 total

mm/porscha
--
scumbot/cape
Auwt/lily
luka/dm/varcron

Again- Auwt/lily more likely to be wolves out of all of them, since they were sitting on low impact vanity wagons while people were consolidating, possibly not wanting to get caught up in flipping a townie.
Cape more likely to be town in this scenario imo, since he was the most recent vote on bakermir and might have been more self conscious about that unless he expected things to move.

I think probably this is a fine place to start, wanting to kill porscha/auwt/lily/dm more out of everyone kinda but like i don't like finding neutrals

[Luka]

Ah yes, so we've got annoying lynch control mechanics. F u n.

I suspect the bounty hunter would want to lay low, since pretty much all he has to do is survive. @Luka this is my terribly subtle way to ask you for reads with some pressure on you

Also, considering Helz is alive, it's safe to assume Werewolf does not exist (it goes before Bounty Hunter in the OoO, so there was no Werewolf kill stopped by BH). It's not too far-fetched to assume there is one neutral who can solo win (BH) and two neutrals who do their own things (Ghost, Monk, Wild Card).

Still think Huo or Lily would've been better lynches, btw. RIP Baker

do you want my honest answer or an answer you would be happy with

[Marshmallow Marshall]

not that anyone cares what I say but the EOD was odd yesterday. After doing his best Chris Crocker impression, MM voted Hou after expressing some interest in us not voting there. Although looking back he doesn't seem as opposed as I first thought but it's still sort of just fence sitting.

Part of me just wants to think that MM and Martin finally saw the light after no selling my case earlier but a more cynical view is that they knew I'd be hard pushing Huo today, regardless of Bake's flip and they wanted to endear themselves to me. I mean, it's just so odd to me that they said 0 about my case on Huo and then voted there?

...no, in fact, I didn't even realize you scumread Huo at all, because you left zero impression on me and your vote was on Baker, not on them. You basically just exist in my book. I just felt like lynching Baker or Oliverz was likely a pretty bad idea (no good case against them + gut saying no), so I went for the best preexisting wagon in the hope to lynch someone else who was suspicious/who had committed the heinous crime of not being towny, and Huo happened to be exactly that. I would not necessarily be sold on lynching them today, for what it's worth, although I'm not super opposed to it. I'll ISO you and take a look at your case.

[Luka]

christ why are people doing wagonomics

[scumbot5679]

oli town sure, I thought so yesterday wich is why I voted bake over him but im not sure why you would assume that huo is town

[Marshmallow Marshall]

do you want my honest answer or an answer you would be happy with

Ideally both in the same sentence

[Mizery]

Also, considering Helz is alive, it's safe to assume Werewolf does not exist

It does, but so does the mafia kill - and there was no kill. This means that BH wasn't the reason he didn't die tonight if the OoO was followed correctly, and that there was a town protective on Helz as well.

[Luka]

Ideally both in the same sentence

whatever ill just give my honest one
I forgot every single damned psot from day one and im backreadign right now

[Marshmallow Marshall]

oli town sure, I thought so yesterday wich is why I voted bake over him but im not sure why you would assume that huo is town

What is this addressing?

[scumbot5679]

would you start reading the god damn thread, MM?

[Luka]

**Mizery**
They have about 3 relevant gameplay related posts and I disagree with most of there gameplay relevant ones. IE: Encouraging Cupid to not use I really don't like, given it could have saved a town in this case. Most of there ISO is just hedging and filler, as well as asking questions as opposed to analyzing the answers to the questions. This is more after a scum rather than anything but Scum Lean

[scumbot5679]

didn't feel like podracing so i wouldn't be suprised if oli and huo huo are v,

i also do not like pod racing

[Marshmallow Marshall]

would you start reading the god damn thread, MM?

No.

[Mizery]

oli town sure, I thought so yesterday wich is why I voted bake over him but im not sure why you would assume that huo is town

if huo is a wolf then i feel like MM is likely a wolf with him based on how things played out, which is something especially i thought that you had thought too (based on your first post this cycle).
the problem with this is that means that the other wolves should have been placed so that huo huo wouldn't die, and i don't see how they would have been. Maybe a wolf on oli with huo huo ready to jump if neccesary

Like, maybe martin /could/ have been the third wolf there and his vote and retraction on bakermir and then vote on huo huo was more distancing but i'm kinda intoxicated right now and probably shouldn't be thinking too hard on this

[Mizery]

so i guess i think martin is town unless he's a wolf with huo huo and mm right now

or a neutral fuck neutrals

[Mizery]

MM just always does everything i associate with general wolfplay and i don't remember playing with him where he was town but i probably have so its best if i just stay away from him

[Mizery]

literally trying to figure out why i called him town and i can't remember i should write these things down it was some sort of mindmeld on something specific

[scumbot5679]

...no, in fact, I didn't even realize you scumread Huo at all, because you left zero impression on me and your vote was on Baker, not on them. You basically just exist in my book. I just felt like lynching Baker or Oliverz was likely a pretty bad idea (no good case against them + gut saying no), so I went for the best preexisting wagon in the hope to lynch someone else who was suspicious/who had committed the heinous crime of not being towny, and Huo happened to be exactly that. I would not necessarily be sold on lynching them today, for what it's worth, although I'm not super opposed to it. I'll ISO you and take a look at your case.

there's a small part of me that's offended that you are claiming that I "just exist" but my question is if you were unaware of my case, what made them suspicious?

[Mizery]

Huo huo jumped on porscha super early but it kinda dissappeared

[Mizery]

watch me confbias my way here

[Mizery]

Cape/huohuo likely not aligned and i do want to look more into cape today

another reason oli is likely not a wolf is his irregular suspicion of helz after helz claimed his role- more likely to come from a mindset of "don't trust anyone" than a post a wolf would make with their tmi being immediately trusting.

Anything surrounding the helz claim is kinda pointless regardless though because it was a confirmable role.

find it super interesting luka called porscha's start good- now that he's outed his full read on me based on d1 actions.

[Mizery]

regardless though luka/varcron/DM contains at most 2 evils only if BH is one of them. Otherwise only one.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Spoiler : context quotes that show scumbot's case :

Are you saying that

is your "answer"?

I think I misread this the first time. I came away thinking DM was sorta bad looking here. The "you didn't respond so you could be scum!" is just sort of...shallow. And assuming ^ is your "answer" then he kinda lied. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he missed so its not "proof" that he lied but eh...still not a great look

I don't think Porscha's q really has anything to do with the game but I think I know what's going on but not going to blurt out the answer yet and I sort of feel like DM line "Everyone has their own way of figuring stuff out." might mean we are on the same page here.

actually, I'm going to post it regardless, the MM read is probably immaterial though it might strengthen my case.

I think ultimately I dislike their voting. You could make the argument that that doesn't make them scum and maybe so I'll try to go a little deeper here.

As I said earlier, I didn't like Huo Huo's vote on Lilly and didn't really like the no sell of 178.

kinda sus on the quick turnaround on Lily. The vote on Porscha seems...safe since their voting likely won't endear them much. But Lilly is posting and so is Cape.

this feels like scum going down the path of least resistance.

it's especially disheartening to put together what, at least IMO, was a solid case on Huo just for no one to really talk about it.

Helz is town but might as well be playing for the other team. I kinda hate Helz arguing that pressure on Martin was a good thing but didn't even bother commenting on mine. And then. AND THEN! Fucking Varcron said it's not even worth commenting on but Varcron is prob actually scum here since trying to jedi mind trick us all into believing that there's nothing to see here is a pro-scum stance.

Don't really like MM's stance either. Just b/c a gen zer is posting like a gen zer doesn't mean said gen zer can't be scum and killing scum is more important than getting "information" I think your and bakes arguments for not wanting to vote scum are terrible.

Bake is prob caught scum and in case I'm not around tomorrow just remember that he defended Huo.

Stop acting like you somehow have seen the truth for sure while we all wander aimlessly like a bunch of intoxicated mosquitos.
Aside from you being annoying , I don't think you're scum, because your case wasn't that solid or even noticeable at all, and yet you seem to REALLY think that you have found the Holy Grail of Truth and that you are entitled to being worshipped for it. This means you've actually thought about it, and what appears to us, mere mortals, as a few posts that aren't bad, but also aren't particularly damning or intense, is actually the tip of the iceberg of your scumhunting thoughts.

You could still be neutral going down the "I scumhunt anyway" route, though.

Regarding Huo: after quickly reading their ISO (I had read their posts, but not in ISO format), I can see what you mean by "going down the path of least resistance". What strikes me the most is that they have produced very, very, very little thoughts of their own (and no profound thoughts at all) despite having 41 posts. It's like they wanted to surf on my initiative when I attacked Lilypetal.

-vote Huo Huo and Mr Tail

[Mizery]

Martin saying no to the proposal tho

What could it mean???

@Martingg90 could you give me the details Mr Martin?

-Huohuo

this is a bad post though

[Marshmallow Marshall]

there's a small part of me that's offended that you are claiming that I "just exist" but my question is if you were unaware of my case, what made them suspicious?

I'm pretty sure there was a lot of things going on in your brain (hence my non-scum read on you, see my last post), but they didn't show up as much as you seem to believe in thread. Don't be offended, happens to me too :P

As for them being "suspicious", at the time, i.e. with like 5 minutes left to EoD, I didn't exactly make an extensive research on them lol. All I knew was that:
- they had posted a lot
- none of what they had said had been particularly memorable, and most of it was meme-y
- they weren't towny
- and most importantly given the circumstances, they already had a vote on them and they weren't Baker or Oliverz, both of whom I townread

My vote was where my heart was, i.e. against Lily, until very close to EoD. The switch was pretty much a "strategic" one because lynching non-towny people is better than lynching towny people; it wasn't about lynching someone I actively scumread, since that seemed pretty much impossible at that point. That said, after reading their ISO, I'm inclined to actively scumread them now.

[Mizery]

I'm going to take a wild guess right now that Huo Huo is neutral, then take that guess not seriously, but when Huo Huo does flip neutral I'm going to point back to this post I can pretend I was right the whole time.

this post honestly would normally imply that martin is a wolf or neutral though due to the fixation on neutrals

[Mizery]

I'm pretty sure there was a lot of things going on in your brain (hence my non-scum read on you, see my last post), but they didn't show up as much as you seem to believe in thread. Don't be offended, happens to me too :P

As for them being "suspicious", at the time, i.e. with like 5 minutes left to EoD, I didn't exactly make an extensive research on them lol. All I knew was that:
- they had posted a lot
- none of what they had said had been particularly memorable, and most of it was meme-y
- they weren't towny
- and most importantly given the circumstances, they already had a vote on them and they weren't Baker or Oliverz, both of whom I townread

My vote was where my heart was, i.e. against Lily, until very close to EoD. The switch was pretty much a "strategic" one because lynching non-towny people is better than lynching towny people; it wasn't about lynching someone I actively scumread, since that seemed pretty much impossible at that point. That said, after reading their ISO, I'm inclined to actively scumread them now.

meaning you found lily towny or that you found huo huo more wolfy

[Marshmallow Marshall]

MM just always does everything i associate with general wolfplay and i don't remember playing with him where he was town but i probably have so its best if i just stay away from him

lol I guess I'm just that cool then

Huo huo jumped on porscha super early but it kinda dissappeared

Not sure why anyone would jump on Porscha at all tbh, I think they were pretty towny overall tone-wise
and i dont remember why

[Marshmallow Marshall]

meaning you found lily towny or that you found huo huo more wolfy

Wha..... no, none of the above XD

Meaning I found Lily scummy, but realized she would never get lynched 5 minutes to EoD with my vote being the only one against her, so I went for a lesser evil by voting Huo instead of having Baker or Oli die

[Mizery]

I mean they weren't

[Mizery]

it generally didn't feel like anyone really cared about how eod played out

[Marshmallow Marshall]

this post honestly would normally imply that martin is a wolf or neutral though due to the fixation on neutrals

I don't think a "fixation", or rather an awareness, of neutrals is unhealthy at all (from a town PoV, obviously) in a setup where there are as many neutrals as there are townies. Am I missing something?

[scumbot5679]

Did you know that mafia is a team game?!? And it require players to interact? Someone has to "find" scum and then others have to either agree or disagree with that case so we can lynch scum. This is my what, 5th game here? Do I really give off the impression that I don't believe what I believe? IMO, lynching Huo furthers the town wincon so whats annoying about me wanting to help my team win?

We can't all be bounty hunters like you.

[Mizery]

I don't think a "fixation", or rather an awareness, of neutrals is unhealthy at all (from a town PoV, obviously) in a setup where there are as many neutrals as there are townies. Am I missing something?

the addition of normally was to imply that i'm not used to dealing with neutrals in games and so the standards here if more neutral games are run can be different

[Mizery]

Did you know that mafia is a team game?!? And it require players to interact? Someone has to "find" scum and then others have to either agree or disagree with that case so we can lynch scum. This is my what, 5th game here? Do I really give off the impression that I don't believe what I believe? IMO, lynching Huo furthers the town wincon so whats annoying about me wanting to help my team win?

[scumbot5679]

scumbot: here's a case that I think is right

*crickets*

MM: its soooooo annoying that you'd try to help town win

fuck off scum

[Lilypetal]

didn't feel like podracing so i wouldn't be suprised if oli and huo huo are v,

if so that ups wolf equity in lily and auwt for sitting on vanity wagons and not really caring about who died, but also if v/v/v wagons wolves are more likely to have voted than not since they wouldn't want to miss an opportunity by accidentally just skipping day.

Huo Huo and Mr Tail (3): Marshmallow Marshall, MartinGG99, bwcPorscha
oliverz144 (3): bakermir, Huo Huo and Mr Tail, Helz
bakermir (4): oliverz144, Mizery, scumbot5679, Cape90
Marshmallow Marshall (1): Auwt
Cape90 (1): Lilypetal
Skip Day (3): Luka; Dark Magician; Varcron

so then if we assume v/v/v wagons then we can assume ~one evil on each wagon with possible 6 total

mm/porscha
--
scumbot/cape
Auwt/lily
luka/dm/varcron

Again- Auwt/lily more likely to be wolves out of all of them, since they were sitting on low impact vanity wagons while people were consolidating, possibly not wanting to get caught up in flipping a townie.
Cape more likely to be town in this scenario imo, since he was the most recent vote on bakermir and might have been more self conscious about that unless he expected things to move.

I think probably this is a fine place to start, wanting to kill porscha/auwt/lily/dm more out of everyone kinda but like i don't like finding neutrals

i was not at eod so that part on me vanity wagoning/not caring is invalid

[Lilypetal]

**Mizery**
They have about 3 relevant gameplay related posts and I disagree with most of there gameplay relevant ones. IE: Encouraging Cupid to not use I really don't like, given it could have saved a town in this case. Most of there ISO is just hedging and filler, as well as asking questions as opposed to analyzing the answers to the questions. This is more after a scum rather than anything but Scum Lean

what

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Did you know that mafia is a team game?!? And it require players to interact? Someone has to "find" scum and then others have to either agree or disagree with that case so we can lynch scum. This is my what, 5th game here? Do I really give off the impression that I don't believe what I believe? IMO, lynching Huo furthers the town wincon so whats annoying about me wanting to help my team win?

We can't all be bounty hunters like you.

...which doesn't mean refusing to see things in other people's perspective and instead choosing to say they "refuse to lynch scum" as if they agreed with you is productive in any way.
Much like discussing this, though, so I won't linger

On another note: Luka, I see your post about scumreading Mizery and I'm not sure I see what you're seeing. Gameplay-related posts are legion in what Mizery is making RIGHT NOW xD. As for game theory disagreements, they are NAI

[Lilypetal]

i find mm kinda towny here

[Lilypetal]

i also kinda find lukah towny for probs NAI reasons

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Did you know that mafia is a team game?!? And it require players to interact? Someone has to "find" scum and then others have to either agree or disagree with that case so we can lynch scum. This is my what, 5th game here? Do I really give off the impression that I don't believe what I believe? IMO, lynching Huo furthers the town wincon so whats annoying about me wanting to help my team win?

is this going to become a copypasta
please dont make this into a copypasta
its already a copypasta now tbh
....AAAAAAAAAAA

[scumbot5679]

whats a copy pasta?

[Mizery]

Also, considering Helz is alive, it's safe to assume Werewolf does not exist

It does, but so does the mafia kill - and there was no kill. This means that BH wasn't the reason he didn't die tonight if the OoO was followed correctly, and that there was a town protective on Helz as well.

mm can you comment/concern/question on this

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Just realized something while skimming through ISOs

I'm waiting for a response from MM because he said nothing about lily when lily came back kid

Also enlighten me why is my voting "the path of less resistance"?

The guys voting poor Huohuo is saying i'm voting the path of less resistance?!?!?

Laughanle completely laughable

-Mr Tail

That was a fair post that could've meant Huo was actually thinking about solving me, but then I posted this:

Okay so those posts from Lilypetal just seem so... off

Spoiler : long post :

Ehhh, maybe. I'm not convinced and don't particularly like the tone of this either (and yes, I'm aware this is not something you can really argue against, but that's just how it is, sorry)

That's Mizery for you, definetly not out of their meta here


This (and to some extent, the post before, but especially this one) feels like scum trying to find a reason to hate on someone, trying to replicate a reasoned scumread on people to look useful.
I don't think town would seriously comment that way on "make up some thoughts" unless they were previously tunnelled at the target player. It reads like "Hey, this is something that could look weird, I should point it out, it would give me a reason to scumread someone", and this just resonates with a scum mindset.
I was gonna comment on the other lines but actually realized it was the same feeling and analysis throughout the entire post, so just ^ the same thing to various extents for the entire attack on Cape lol

-vote Lilypetal

(My vote was already on her, but this is a more serious vote and I wish to renew it, be it just for the sake of vote history)

~~

Considering this, I reaaalllyyyyy want to hear reasons from those who said they townread Lily (such as Porscha, not sure if anyone else said it).

And then...

*crickets chirping*

Huo never addressed it XD

[Mizery]

Cape
Auwt
DM
Lily
Porscha
Varcron

[Luka]

I forgot about this game after making my first read
help