S-FM 193: Final Fantasy VII

[DarknessB]

The reasons weren't bad. He was scummy as fuck. He knew it was scummy as fuck and even admitted he dig that hole himself.

But you didn't see it that way, you didn't see the blatant scumminess in front of you - why? You didn't say "I have a hard town read on him" but yoh implied it by defending him and fighting that train, and now you're going after people who were scum reading him legitimately. White knighting.

Honestly, I am very pro-Banana on this MattZed vs. Banana debate. Gyrlander admitted himself that his play was over the top scummy and I feel like MattZed is trying to introduce some revisionist history to make it seem very townsided. I just don't buy "it was actually townsided play the whole time!" narrative that MZ is attempting to push and I really don't understand why he's pushing it. I did the ISO as MZ requested and didn't see any of this pro-town play that he alluded to.

My most educated guess right now would be some sort of white knight play or pocketing Gyrlander given his votes. I.e. if MZ were in fact scum, having the Mayor believe in you could be a valuable cudgel to swing around for mislynches. That having been said, I don't have a strong enough feel on MZ to push for a lynch on him today vs. others who have been more scummy.

[Saik0Shinigami]

More fluff posts without anything to add other than we should blindly follow his plan without articulating WHY it is the correct course of action. Even admits to not knowing Gyrlander's role reveal...

Which is why my vote is on him currently. It's screams scum/scumshield to me. 'I'm going to vote this way no questions asked just because'. That's a cop out to never have to explain anything because we have to assume 'it's PoD being PoD'. Rather than what I think it is, a guise to float through some time before he can do what he wants.

[DarknessB]

What i also find interesting is how the AIVION train just suddenly disappeared. Its completely gone.
Also SJ was pocketing Gyr pretty hard, to me it felt like he just knew he was town.

I noticed this as well -- AIVION had quite a bit of pressure on him and it all seems to have vanished after the Gyrlander fiasco earlier. I have a decent scum read on AIVION given his fluff posting and continued reluctance to give any reads (other than jumping on the Grylander train out for survivalistic purposes) , but it could also be just noobish / reckless play. I'd suggest AIVION be one of the players we look at for a lynch today, along with POD and others.

[Calix]

Vote Count #3...or something

powerofdeath (1 [L-6]):
Saik0Shinigami
Saik0Shinigami (2 [L-5]):
pisskop, powerofdeath
BananaCucho (2 [L-5]):
MattZed, GameFreak
MattZed (1 [L-6]):
HeadShrinker

One day, I'll actually do something with these VCs.

[DarknessB]

-vote saik0Shinigami

This is acceptable. Excalibur is acceptable, somebody pushing a case for more than the last 4 pages; that push is acceptable

to boot saiko is beliw the line

Honestly, Excalibur has made ONE post this game. The game rules require five posts per day and the day is almost over. Shifty is presumably going to replace him out tonight so it makes no sense to lynch an empty slot. We're not going to get any information out of that (no one has interacted with him) and it's essentially a naked gamble. We can address Excalibur when his replacement comes into the game tomorrow. I'd much rather lynch someone for scummy behavior than policy lynch just because. Policy lynches don't make as much sense in this 2 KPN game where we don't have a ton of margin of error. Plus, there has been enough scummy behavior by a number of players -- AIVION, POD, SJ, etc. to justify a legitimate lynch.

[Gyrlander]

AIVION hasn't said a world in a lot of time... I wonder where is he. I think we may should focus on players that are here now

[DarknessB]

Oh ey, surprise surprise. People fucking day one up again 0-o People need to learn the difference between looking scummy and being scummy.

I'm going to sip my tea whilst being god damn proud of myself for seeing past Gyr's "scummy look"

At-least this will help with VCA. Shame he revealed early though, no one was going to lynch this early.

You don't get town points for assuming that an insanely scummy player was actually Town. Any objective Town member would have assumed he was scum given his over the top behavior. Grylander's behavior was nothing like how a TPR, much less a Super TPR should act. Essentially, you are patting yourself on the back for the equivalent of the Fire Briner effect -- really not much to write home about. Also, how about some leads other than self-congratulations and English comments regarding the weather and tea? That would help us more so.

[Calix]

AIVION hasn't said a world in a lot of time... I wonder where is he. I think we may should focus on players that are here now

We only have 4 (?) hours left. There is NO guarantee that the people that we want to lynch will even turn up in that time due to time-zones. If we agree to collectively decide on someone, we are going to have to use their prior posts to determine wherever they are a good D1 lynch.

[DarknessB]

You don't get town points for assuming that an insanely scummy player was actually Town. Any objective Town member would have assumed he was scum given his over the top behavior. Grylander's behavior was nothing like how a TPR, much less a Super TPR should act. Essentially, you are patting yourself on the back for the equivalent of the Fire Briner effect -- really not much to write home about. Also, how about some leads other than self-congratulations and English comments regarding the weather and tea? That would help us more so.

For the uninformed, the Fire Briner effect was coined by Banana / Toadette and essentially means getting a read right based on luck or randomness as opposed to any actually accurate deduction on your part. Even in the best case, SJ probably felt bad because Grylander was being "bullied" and did his "must be Town" read. The big question was whether SJ actually knew he was Town because SJ is Mafia and was trying to get towncred either in terms of the "I told you so" guy after the mislynch or pocketing Grylander if he survived -- i.e. the "white knight" play that others have mentioned.

[Gyrlander]

Don't worry guys, If we fail the Materia will surely help us ;D

[DarknessB]

Just went back through the thread.

Continue to think MZ and darkness are very likely scum. Never really thought grylander was scum, hes just shit.

I see a lot of action on the saiko train but I cant figure out how anyone could substantiate this vote. Seems like he mentions old versions of this game and has questions about policy etc, I dont read this as selling his vote or being wishy-washy. Maybe getting a scummy town vibe but not a scum read from these actions.

My reasoning for MZ remains the same and my vote remains unchanged.

I am most suspicious of MattZed for the revisionist history of Grylander -- almost feels like he is trying to ingratiate himself to the Mayor for pocketing purposes. Even Gyrlander admitted that he played like shit to begin the game. Seems like an appeal to flattery to me, especially because no one else, not even Grylander, was portraying his play as solid contributory Town work. MattZed's theories aren't usually this far out of right field, which leads me to believe that he's doing this for some reason he's not saying (being informed / pocketing).

[DarknessB]

I was defending meta earlier with my read on AIVION.

My point was that some players on here use it too much. Instead of reading the player, they just go "they're acting differently, must be scum" without considering wherever the 'new play' is actually scum-motivated. I like to switch up my play-style sometimes and it gets annoying when you get auto-scumread for it JUST because you changed your play-style - it just encourages people to play the same way every game when that happens.

Meta is the cherry on the cake when it comes to reads. It's not the whole fucking cake.

Agreed -- I've started making the in-game point and then the meta point in reads (to the extent both exist). Meta has some use, but it shouldn't be the only reason you are pushing someone. People should constantly be evolving their playstyles or it's going to mean crappy players stay crappy and good players become predictable.

[Gyrlander]

Don't worry guys, If we fail the Materia will surely help us ;D

You may think that this was a random post, but I think we should discuss about how we should use the materia. It is a very valuable item.

[DarknessB]

Just like im 100% positive SJ plays like this to not get D1 lynched and he knows.

This seems to be consistent with his play in other games, yes. It hasn't always meant that he's been Town though. I feel like he also enjoys messing around a bit during Day 1 and that's the only time it's even reasonably acceptable. I don't think this means we should give him a pass though -- especially given the white knight / pocketing point that many of us have mentioned.

[Calix]

You may think that this was a random post, but I think we should discuss about how we should use the materia. It is a very valuable item.

In what sense? This sounds like directing TPR actions, which gives scum a potential roadmap and assumes that the players with the Materia are too incompetent to figure it out for themselves.

[DarknessB]

If your reaction to someone playing wrong is lynchig them, it shows you dont want people to improve. Just saying.

Can I point out that "someone playing wrong" often means that they are self-conscious about having rolled scum, don't know how to act, and are therefore making mistakes? It's much easier to play as Town because you essentially scumhunt. To play as scum, you have to scumhunt AND make shit up / push the lynches that you want. You essentially know information that you can't reveal and which would implicate you. No one was voting you because they thought you sucked -- they were voting you because your behavior was insanely scummy, in terms of emphasis on survivalism, overemphasis on game terminology, trying to bargain players not to vote you, trying to set up a town bloc with anyone who agreed with you, etc.

[DarknessB]

Saik0: I've pushed just about every player in this game at one point or another, MattZed included. I feel like you are doing the infamous pre-flip association thing and associating me with MattZed merely because we have both been high activity so far. There are a ton of things I disagree with MZ on: that Gyrlander was pro-town to begin this game, that Banana is a good lynch target. In fact, we don't agree on much other than preparing ISOs on players.

[DarknessB]

We only have 4 (?) hours left. There is NO guarantee that the people that we want to lynch will even turn up in that time due to time-zones. If we agree to collectively decide on someone, we are going to have to use their prior posts to determine wherever they are a good D1 lynch.

We don't have the luxury of waiting around for players to get back -- we need to start getting trains lined up. I'd advocate any of AIVION, POD, or SJ. MZ is fishy as fuck, but we don't have enough time to dive into that today at least. We can interrogate Excalibur's replacement tomorrow (no policy lynch please). Saik0 is finally contributing and seems like he's putting thought into the game so I'm not crazy about that lynch today.

[Gyrlander]

Can I point out that "someone playing wrong" often means that they are self-conscious about having rolled scum, don't know how to act, and are therefore making mistakes? It's much easier to play as Town because you essentially scumhunt. To play as scum, you have to scumhunt AND make shit up / push the lynches that you want. You essentially know information that you can't reveal and which would implicate you. No one was voting you because they thought you sucked -- they were voting you because your behavior was insanely scummy, in terms of emphasis on survivalism, overemphasis on game terminology, trying to bargain players not to vote you, trying to set up a town bloc with anyone who agreed with you, etc.

... I answered that because he wanted to lynch me for playing horrible, and he said that he didn't think I was scum.

[DarknessB]

You may think that this was a random post, but I think we should discuss about how we should use the materia. It is a very valuable item.

It's pretty obvious how we should use a number of the Materia, but do you really want to get into it in terms of WIFOM?

[BananaCucho]

What happened to my vote?

-vote MattZed

Honestly any other vote I would make at this point would be a sheep vote. This is the only vote I feel okay with atm

[DarknessB]

What happened to my vote?

-vote MattZed

Honestly any other vote I would make at this point would be a sheep vote. This is the only vote I feel okay with atm

Votes were canceled when Grylander was revealed as the Mayor. Also, I honestly don't feel like we're getting a MattZed lynch today. I agree that he is fishy, but I think it's going to have to be something that we dig into tomorrow.

[DarknessB]

Anyway, finally caught up, so let me vote to get the wagons moving.

-vote powerofdeath

[Calix]

What happened to my vote?

-vote MattZed

Honestly any other vote I would make at this point would be a sheep vote. This is the only vote I feel okay with atm

Given how the day has gone, sheeping is the only way we are going to get a lynch off. If you're town-reading SJ, POD or AIVION, say so now because they look like the only players who most players suspect.

[Calix]

-vote SuperJack

[Saik0Shinigami]

Saik0: I've pushed just about every player in this game at one point or another, MattZed included. I feel like you are doing the infamous pre-flip association thing and associating me with MattZed merely because we have both been high activity so far. There are a ton of things I disagree with MZ on: that Gyrlander was pro-town to begin this game, that Banana is a good lynch target. In fact, we don't agree on much other than preparing ISOs on players.

Prior to about 20 posts ago, you agreed on almost all major points including all but one ISO. It wasn't until I posted for a third time that I think there's something between you two that YOU finally spoke up about it and also started saying things DIRECTLY to MattZed. Unfortunately MattZed decided as I was posting that long as post to say something that hurts my arguments. So I need to redo some links to see how it rolls now. But I cannot accept your neg-MattZed remarks at this point because you can do it as cover knowing that I may be on to you since Calix wanted me to post my thoughts so much.

Having said all that. I am more inclined to believe that MattZed is the more scummy of you 2. But I cannot clear either of you based on your recent interactions. Just drop you lower on my lists for it.

[DarknessB]

Prior to about 20 posts ago, you agreed on almost all major points including all but one ISO. It wasn't until I posted for a third time that I think there's something between you two that YOU finally spoke up about it and also started saying things DIRECTLY to MattZed. Unfortunately MattZed decided as I was posting that long as post to say something that hurts my arguments. So I need to redo some links to see how it rolls now. But I cannot accept your neg-MattZed remarks at this point because you can do it as cover knowing that I may be on to you since Calix wanted me to post my thoughts so much.

Having said all that. I am more inclined to believe that MattZed is the more scummy of you 2. But I cannot clear either of you based on your recent interactions. Just drop you lower on my lists for it.

MattZed and I disagreed on the Grylander and Banana points before you posted your read wall -- that was last night before you had been prodded into elaborating further. I ask that you not fall into the pre-flip associations point merely because we had both been scumhunting at the same time.

[HeadShrinker]

We don't have the luxury of waiting around for players to get back -- we need to start getting trains lined up. I'd advocate any of AIVION, POD, or SJ. MZ is fishy as fuck, but we don't have enough time to dive into that today at least. We can interrogate Excalibur's replacement tomorrow (no policy lynch please). Saik0 is finally contributing and seems like he's putting thought into the game so I'm not crazy about that lynch today.

This is all i need to feel more confident in a MZ/darkness scum team.

[pisskop]

powerofdeath (2 [L-5]):
Saik0Shinigami, DarknessB
Saik0Shinigami (2 [L-5]):
pisskop, powerofdeath
BananaCucho (2 [L-5]):
MattZed, GameFreak
MattZed (2 [L-5]):
HeadShrinker, BananaCucho
SuperJack (1 [L-6]):
Calix


what the fuck guys

[BananaCucho]

Given how the day has gone, sheeping is the only way we are going to get a lynch off. If you're town-reading SJ, POD or AIVION, say so now because they look like the only players who most players suspect.

I could vote SJ as well if he gets more votes

[BananaCucho]

This is all i need to feel more confident in a MZ/darkness scum team.

Pre-flip associations are bad

Vote MZ and after he flips scum we'll explore who his buds are

[DarknessB]

This is all i need to feel more confident in a MZ/darkness scum team.

Get the votes on MZ and I will lynch him. Do you have anything to add other than sheeping Saik0?

[HeadShrinker]

Votes were canceled when Grylander was revealed as the Mayor. Also, I honestly don't feel like we're getting a MattZed lynch today. I agree that he is fishy, but I think it's going to have to be something that we dig into tomorrow.

And then this. Why cant we lynch mattzed? because you keep trying to derail any train going towards him. I hope others see this and vote one of the two of you out.

[Gyrlander]

We have 4 L-5 and 1 L-6. Guess I need to hear this place. Pod, please come and defend yourself as soon as possible.

-vote powerofdeath

I was very reluctant of voting you just because you said "ALL HAIL THE MAYOR". Seriously, I love people that treat me like that, that's why I love Mayor. Anyway, I shall not allow my fee-fees interfere!

[DarknessB]

And then this. Why cant we lynch mattzed? because you keep trying to derail any train going towards him. I hope others see this and vote one of the two of you out.

Times like this I wish we had a tunnel icon... Dude, you are doing nothing to advocate your case other than to whine about me. How about you explain why MattZed is sketchy to help get the votes together? Try doing it without literally copying Saik0's thread too.

[Calix]

MattZed and I disagreed on the Grylander and Banana points before you posted your read wall -- that was last night before you had been prodded into elaborating further. I ask that you not fall into the pre-flip associations point merely because we had both been scumhunting at the same time.

I disagree on discouraging Saiko's pre-flip associations. While I disagree with them in general, I think it's a more central part of his play-style than it is for us sc2 plebs and shouldn't be stifled. He'll be more likely to make points that we may overlook.

[DarknessB]

And then this. Why cant we lynch mattzed? because you keep trying to derail any train going towards him. I hope others see this and vote one of the two of you out.

Like holy shit man -- we should lynch MattZed because Darkness [something]? You are terrible at this pushing thing. How about actually ADDRESSING WHY MATTZED IS SCUMMY?

[BananaCucho]

And then this. Why cant we lynch mattzed? because you keep trying to derail any train going towards him. I hope others see this and vote one of the two of you out.

Vote MZ

We have 4 L-5 and 1 L-6. Guess I need to hear this place. Pod, please come and defend yourself as soon as possible.

-vote powerofdeath

I was very reluctant of voting you just because you said "ALL HAIL THE MAYOR". Seriously, I love people that treat me like that, that's why I love Mayor. Anyway, I shall not allow my fee-fees interfere!

Vote MZ and Darkness will switch

[Calix]

As an aside, I like how even the newer players on this site are picking up on LynchZed.

[HeadShrinker]

Times like this I wish we had a tunnel icon... Dude, you are doing nothing to advocate your case other than to whine about me. How about you explain why MattZed is sketchy to help get the votes together? Try doing it without literally copying Saik0's thread too.

Read any of my other posts, nothing has changed. Trying to make my argument seem invalid because it is clearly getting at you. This is not tunneling, that would be repeated questioning, I am stating you are scum. And I am confident in it. If you are closer to the lynch I will change my vote to you.

[DarknessB]

Read any of my other posts, nothing has changed. Trying to make my argument seem invalid because it is clearly getting at you. This is not tunneling, that would be repeated questioning, I am stating you are scum. And I am confident in it. If you are closer to the lynch I will change my vote to you.

You have no argument man -- point me to where you have laid out the scum case. You are sheeping Saik0's pre-flip association and otherwise avoiding any scumhunting.

[BananaCucho]

Oh shitz he is voting MZ

I'm so out of it today

[DarknessB]

Oh shitz he is voting MZ

I'm so out of it today

Yes, he's scumreading me while voting MZ. Basically he's the embodiment of a pre-flip association sheep. It's quite the combination of bad strategies put together. He also refuses to give any reads or scumhunt other than this pathetic tunnel.

[HeadShrinker]

You have no argument man -- point me to where you have laid out the scum case. You are sheeping Saik0's pre-flip association and otherwise avoiding any scumhunting.

Im not doing your work for you, ISO me, find my read lists and other associated posts, realize Ive been saying you two are scum for pages and pages long before saikos read list.

But a scum player would be responding like you, trying to break down my case by stating there isnt any case to begin with.

[HeadShrinker]

Oh shitz he is voting MZ

I'm so out of it today

I voted MZ on like page 2 or 3 and have only felt more strongly about it since that time.

[DarknessB]

Im not doing your work for you, ISO me, find my read lists and other associated posts, realize Ive been saying you two are scum for pages and pages long before saikos read list.

But a scum player would be responding like you, trying to break down my case by stating there isnt any case to begin with.

"I'm too lazy to state my case so I will kill time by asking you to weed through 33 pages of game text so I can further whittle down the clock."

[BananaCucho]

This is a mess

[Calix]

This is a mess

How so?

[HeadShrinker]

"I'm too lazy to state my case so I will kill time by asking you to weed through 33 pages of game text so I can further whittle down the clock."

Are you truly an idiot?

You are not defending yourself well, it is a superficial defense tactic. I am not being lazy, you are being thick. And as scum this would benefit you, dont address my previously stated points. I am not tunneling here, you just wont drop it because you know I am spot on.

[DarknessB]

Also, why would I ISO you? I just think you're terrible Town who is tunneling off of bad ideas. I don't particularly scum-read you. Unlike you, I've laid out my cases on each person who I would be comfortable lynching today.