Is asking for alignment cheating?

[Xifon]

As a jailor, is it considered cheating if you ask the person you've jailed for his alignment? Everyone does it but someone in the jailor chat just claimed it's cheating.

Note that it's just the alignment I'm talking about here, not the rest of the role card. I'd never ask for (for example) colors, exact texts or other stuff that's really hard to know. Just the alignment: some very basic information about the role the person is playing.

Thanks,
Xifon


PS: if this is actually considered cheating, then there should be an ingame help item about it. Everyone asks for alignments.

[NorthStar]

Asking for an alignment is like asking if a person is Town, Mafia or Neutral. It's not cheating, as long as you don't ask them to read anything else from their role card aside from the role itself.

[Xifon]

I meant the part that says "Town (Power/Basic)". Asking for a role is, of course, completely legal.

[creedkingsx]

I meant the part that says "Town (Power/Basic)". Asking for a role is, of course, completely legal.

Asking town, neutral, or mafia is fine. The Power/Basic I would consider illegal because those are specific details about the role.

[Ganondorf]

If asking for alignment IS considered cheating, then I will see to it that Congress enacts legislature making it a requirement that every citizen purchase a pig to throw off of the roofs of their houses on every third Tuesday, after which I will chop off my left arm and replace it with a rubber chicken and then make it my mission to hit someone with the beak until they die, after which I will smear the dead person's blood on my sacrificial sheep and then use the bones to make a triforce on my front lawn.

tl;dr
No.

[Blazer]

Asking town, neutral, or mafia is fine. The Power/Basic I would consider illegal because those are specific details about the role.

But anyone can fake those....they are open to the public too. Just click the help tab and look for it.

[Lysergic]

Borderline. If reading a role card is a LIGHT form of cheating, I think asking for alignments is light enough to not even qualify.

Matter of opinion, though.

[creedkingsx]

But anyone can fake those....they are open to the public too. Just click the help tab and look for it.

It would take time to do something like that and to people who are new won't know how to do it. It is asking to read you role car because it is information unique to the role. Something like town alignment is plenty obvious. Information like that is just unfair in my honest opinion.

[swEEt]

wait so u cant ask someone to read the first line of their role cards. That is not cheating... jailor is a boss role do what he says

[Blazer]

It would take time to do something like that and to people who are new won't know how to do it. It is asking to read you role car because it is information unique to the role. Something like town alignment is plenty obvious. Information like that is just unfair in my honest opinion.

I see your point. I guess it's more so unfair for those who don't know the roles power level and such. (ITS OVER 9000!! hehe) I don't even know them at all..but it's information that I disregard.
I could see it being a punishable offense.

[Lysergic]

wait so u cant ask someone to read the first line of their role cards. That is not cheating... jailor is a boss role do what he says

Asking someone to read from their role card is cheating. Doesn't matter if it's the Jailor who is asking - it is still cheating.

[Xifon]

Noted. In the future, I'll avoid asking for those details.

[BURNTESKIMO]

lol its not cheating to ask for role. Jailor is in the game to be that class. whats the point of takling to jailor if he cant ask for ur role L O L. learn 2 lie better. pro tip dont say doctor. everybody and their sister says doctor and gets killed. and its not hard to copy a role card. just cuz ur mafia and u get owned by pro jailors doesnt mean u should cry about it

[Lazers]

I meant the part that says "Town (Power/Basic)". Asking for a role is, of course, completely legal.

If they don't know if a role is power/support basic/advanced then they're either new or retarded

in both cases it's an excellent idea to kill them

[skillah]

Asking someone to read from their role card is cheating. Doesn't matter if it's the Jailor who is asking - it is still cheating.

what if the jailed person just started typing off his role card without being asked, is the jailed person cheating if the information he provided is real?
What if the jailed person types the details off a role card different to his real one?

[Lysergic]

lol its not cheating to ask for role. Jailor is in the game to be that class. whats the point of takling to jailor if he cant ask for ur role L O L. learn 2 lie better. pro tip dont say doctor. everybody and their sister says doctor and gets killed. and its not hard to copy a role card. just cuz ur mafia and u get owned by pro jailors doesnt mean u should cry about it

Jailor can ask for the ROLE. Just not the ROLE CARD. I agree that it would be idiotic to make it illegal to ask for someone's role. But this is about ROLE CARD reading, not role claiming. They are two different things.

[Lysergic]

what if the jailed person just started typing off his role card without being asked, is the jailed person cheating if the information he provided is real?
What if the jailed person types the details off a role card different to his real one?

As far as I'm aware, there's no policy regarding that. But asking for a role card is considered cheating because it's using the role card for something other than its intended purpose (e.g. helping new players learn the game). So while simply volunteering one's role card isn't necessarily cheating, it's still kind of against the spirit of the game.

[TheJackofSpades]

This is how I would come down on with a ruling on this issue to avoid any hypocrisy.
-Asking for alignment falls under the classification of reading your role card. Any details about the role beyond the role's name falls under this.
-Someone willingly giving up their role card's information without you demanding it from them is LEGAL and USABLE. However, it must be clear that said person is not under duress and that the lack of a voluntary claim is not the motivation of execution. This would be the same as asking for a role card without asking.

Why I think this is fair: Asking someone for their alignment is completely trivial information to begin with, and is not really an effective method of getting anything done. In order to keep things consistent, this particular method would be considered cheating -to me-, solely because it won't affect anything anyway. Asking for a role is a much more desirable strategy and is completely acceptable, so it shouldn't be difficult at all to avoid this.

As a rule of thumb, avoid quizzing people over the intricacies of the game. It's lame, and a very unfulfilling victory. How I would respond to a report on the subject, ultimately, is largely decided on the context of the event.

Complicated.

[Crimson]

This is how I would come down on with a ruling on this issue to avoid any hypocrisy.
-Asking for alignment falls under the classification of reading your role card. Any details about the role beyond the role's name falls under this.
-Someone willingly giving up their role card's information without you demanding it from them is LEGAL and USABLE. However, it must be clear that said person is not under duress and that the lack of a voluntary claim is not the motivation of execution. This would be the same as asking for a role card without asking.

Why I think this is fair: Asking someone for their alignment is completely trivial information to begin with, and is not really an effective method of getting anything done. In order to keep things consistent, this particular method would be considered cheating -to me-, solely because it won't affect anything anyway. Asking for a role is a much more desirable strategy and is completely acceptable, so it shouldn't be difficult at all to avoid this.

As a rule of thumb, avoid quizzing people over the intricacies of the game. It's lame, and a very fulfilling victory. How I would respond to a report on the subject, ultimately, is largely decided on the context of the event.

Complicated.

run off a cliff

[BURNTESKIMO]

Jailor can ask for the ROLE. Just not the ROLE CARD. I agree that it would be idiotic to make it illegal to ask for someone's role. But this is about ROLE CARD reading, not role claiming. They are two different things.

what. why would you purposefully deny yourself information that way. I'm looking for mafia to kill not to be kind to noobies as jailor. If they cant read a role card or accurately tell me who they healed/invested/etc... then i will exec them.

[Crimson]

Basically, It's a double standard.

PAGE 3 SECTION 2 OF THE MAFIA HANDBOOK CLEARLY STATES THAT;


"No man may read the role card".

Well, you're clearly making someone read the role card, no matter what.

[Lysergic]

what. why would you purposefully deny yourself information that way. I'm looking for mafia to kill not to be kind to noobies as jailor. If they cant read a role card or accurately tell me who they healed/invested/etc... then i will exec them.

And then you will be reported for cheating and punished.

So it's really your choice. Lawl.

[BURNTESKIMO]

And then you will be reported for cheating and punished.

So it's really your choice. Lawl.

Well that would be a bad way to get banned. I guess I'll just exec them and not ask them to read role card. lawl

[TheJackofSpades]

Basically, It's a double standard.

PAGE 3 SECTION 2 OF THE MAFIA HANDBOOK CLEARLY STATES THAT;


"No man may read the role card".

Well, you're clearly making someone read the role card, no matter what.

You're welcome to try and prove that what I just said is a double standard, but saying the role you were given and reading a role card are two completely different things.

[Lysergic]

Well that would be a bad way to get banned. I guess I'll just exec them and not ask them to read role card. lawl

Or you could, y'know, let them prove their role to you to confirm them.

[BURNTESKIMO]

Or you could, y'know, let them prove their role to you to confirm them.

You sound like you dont play much and just sit around theory crafting. If you ask them to "prove" then you are basically saying try to give me your best lie. If say they claim mayor I can understand but them claiming escort and claiming they visited x player is useless if they are mafia and lied to you. If you ask said player then you will be confirmed as jailor and targeted. I don't see the point of a rule to cater to noobs.

[TheJackofSpades]

I don't see the point of a rule to cater to noobs.

Simple. Because it's a rule that protects new players from being exploited by noobs who can't play the game well enough to the point where they must resort to exploiting a loophole that only new players would be defeated by.

[Lysergic]

You sound like you dont play much and just sit around theory crafting

Lawl. Stopped reading there.

[Crimson]

It's not cheating. I have been playing Mafia since late May. Trust me on it.


Some of the moderators/teal guys don't know what they are talking about. They are just trying to push their agenda. This forum reminds me of the Illuminati, for fucking real.


Anyways, It's either cheating or It's not. Since they say It's not cheating to read the role off the role card but It's cheating to read the Role Type, It's definitely not cheating.






Jack is a perfect example of the Illuminati. Use to be a great guy and not a dick, but ever since he got a title, he always has to be right. Lysergic is forced to defend the cock sucker because he was told by the corporation of new council. BTW, this council sucks dick.


The forum would be better off having me as the only teal guy/moderator, I'm sure everyone agrees on that.



COM was where you could have fun. Now It's serious business. It gets very annoying.

Sorry, ranted a bit.




To answer your question, It's not cheating.

The fact that they keep saying the SAME answer over and over, "It's to protect new players", doesn't mean you are cheating. It's taking advantage of being an experienced player. You learn. If you're new to a game and really interested in playing it, learn the basics.


A good example of this.



Pokemon.

When I was a kid, I use to play Pokemon on the Gameboy all the time. I would have a level 42 Ratata going against a bullshit Gym Leader with a level 50 Pikachu.


That was bullshit.

Was that cheating? No. It was the Gym Leader being more experienced Pokemon Trainer than I was. You get better. You will overcome your opponents as I overcame that Pikachu.


People learn by their mistakes.

[NettleS]

its cheating , falls under role card reading imo

[TheJackofSpades]

The fact that they keep saying the SAME answer over and over, "It's to protect new players", doesn't mean you are cheating. It's taking advantage of being an experienced player. You learn. If you're new to a game and really interested in playing it, learn the basics.


A good example of this.



Pokemon.

When I was a kid, I use to play Pokemon on the Gameboy all the time. I would have a level 42 Ratata going against a bullshit Gym Leader with a level 50 Pikachu.

We keep using the same answer because people who oppose the rule always use the same tired argument. "We should be able to use it because we're more experienced and gained the skill by learning it. New players should have to learn it too." But what those people fail to realize is that it's a "learned skill" that is only effective against the very people they insist should learn it. It's completely useless against everyone else, people who aren't new. So they're advocating for a purposeless learning curve to an already rather overwhelming game(to a new player).

Seriously Crimson, that example doesn't even make sense nor does it pertain to the argument.

A more apt description is that at the end of every gym battle, the gym leader would ask you to read off the description of 3-5 pokemon in the entire pokedex. Such information would include:
-Height
-Weight
-Species
-Type
-Abilities
-What routes they're caught in
-Pokedex description

If you fail to do so, you're forced to restart the game.

Does knowing this information make you better at the game? Maybe some of it.
Do you need to be quizzed on it in order to play? No.

[Ash]

It's not cheating. I have been playing Mafia since late May. Trust me on it.


Some of the moderators/teal guys don't know what they are talking about. They are just trying to push their agenda. This forum reminds me of the Illuminati, for fucking real.


Anyways, It's either cheating or It's not. Since they say It's not cheating to read the role off the role card but It's cheating to read the Role Type, It's definitely not cheating.






Jack is a perfect example of the Illuminati. Use to be a great guy and not a dick, but ever since he got a title, he always has to be right. Lysergic is forced to defend the cock sucker because he was told by the corporation of new council. BTW, this council sucks dick.


The forum would be better off having me as the only teal guy/moderator, I'm sure everyone agrees on that.



COM was where you could have fun. Now It's serious business. It gets very annoying.

Sorry, ranted a bit.




To answer your question, It's not cheating.

The fact that they keep saying the SAME answer over and over, "It's to protect new players", doesn't mean you are cheating. It's taking advantage of being an experienced player. You learn. If you're new to a game and really interested in playing it, learn the basics.


A good example of this.



Pokemon.

When I was a kid, I use to play Pokemon on the Gameboy all the time. I would have a level 42 Ratata going against a bullshit Gym Leader with a level 50 Pikachu.


That was bullshit.

Was that cheating? No. It was the Gym Leader being more experienced Pokemon Trainer than I was. You get better. You will overcome your opponents as I overcame that Pikachu.


People learn by their mistakes.

Actually, they ARE Illuminati. Here's a secret: Kevinpowers was invited to join the Illuminati organization but since he rejected, he got kicked out from keeper status. Haven't heard from Kevinpowers ever since.

[Derogatory]

When I'm a jailor, my strategy is to talk frequently (I do this always. I don't troll talk, I actually talk and give my opinions.) and jail random people (if there's no leads) and take their claimed roles and record them in my LW unless I'm already known as the jailor. If I really believe someone's an anti-town role and survived due to a retarded town, I execute them. I also execute them if they don't tell me their roles. I often don't ask what they've done with that role unless the night is long, as there often isn't enough time. A role would be enough for the town to tell if they're lying or not late game when I may be dead.

Role-calling should definitely be legal, IMO, but only in certain circumstances. Late game, by jailors and on trial. Early game role-calling is both pointless and stupid. For instance, a mayor reveals himself D1 and tells everyone to whisper their roles to him. Since he was an idiot, I jailed him N1 and executed him just for being stupid.

[Apocist]

I even remember DR at on point put in the loading tips, some along the lines about ask to read your role is wrong

[Lysergic]

When I'm a jailor, my strategy is to talk frequently (I do this always. I don't troll talk, I actually talk and give my opinions.) and jail random people (if there's no leads) and take their claimed roles and record them in my LW unless I'm already known as the jailor. If I really believe someone's an anti-town role and survived due to a retarded town, I execute them. I also execute them if they don't tell me their roles. I often don't ask what they've done with that role unless the night is long, as there often isn't enough time. A role would be enough for the town to tell if they're lying or not late game when I may be dead.

Role-calling should definitely be legal, IMO, but only in certain circumstances. Late game, by jailors and on trial. Early game role-calling is both pointless and stupid. For instance, a mayor reveals himself D1 and tells everyone to whisper their roles to him. Since he was an idiot, I jailed him N1 and executed him just for being stupid.

We're talking about forcing players to read information from the role card, not claiming a role.

If the Mayor can be healed, that's actually an excellent strategy that can quickly reveal all scum players to a confirmed towny. And you should never execute a confirmed towny as the jailor unless he's directly acting against town (i.e. voting up town players and killing them).

It's not cheating. I have been playing Mafia since late May. Trust me on it.

And I've been playing Mafia for around a year. And DR, the guy who created Mafia, says it's cheating. So trust DR on it.

[Blazer]

You can't argue your way around DR. Question answered.

[Zack]

...

I have no love for Jack and I am on his side of the arguement in this. Your point is void?

[Clawtrocity]

SC2 Mafia has rules like this now? What the fuck are you guys doing in there?

[Ganondorf]

I have no love for Jack and I am on his side of the arguement in this. Your point is void?

I agree with Zack's agreement... Jack's point is both valid and true. I actually never thought about the whole "asking for alignment is pointless" thing: really, it kinda defeats the original purpose of this thread. On the reading of role cards, it's kinda stupid that: A) One person should have to read a role card to prove or disprove their claim, and B) that the jailor actually knosw the role cards that well by himself or that he can expect to let the jailee read from his role card, check it, and then make a decision in the 35 second period that is the night...

tl;dr
Agree with Zack/Jack

[TheJackofSpades]

SC2 Mafia has rules like this now? What the fuck are you guys doing in there?

Umm no offense Claw but this has been a rule enforced since it began to arise in early June. Pretty much everyone who mattered universally agreed that role card reading was bullshit and shouldn't ever take hold as an acceptable metagame.

[Crimson]

I respect your opinions, but there is nothing wrong with reading the role type off the card.

I don't ask people to do it because I will hear complaints non-stop.

[Clawtrocity]

Umm no offense Claw but this has been a rule enforced since it began to arise in early June. Pretty much everyone who mattered universally agreed that role card reading was bullshit and shouldn't ever take hold as an acceptable metagame.

I was one of those people, but you guys are banning for it? There was nothing we could do about it and we chalked it up to it's bullshit and you shouldn't do it. I don't think punishing people for it is a good idea at all.