S-FM Nonstandard Roles 3

[powerofdeath]

S-FM Nonstandard Roles 3

Role List:
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town/Hidden Neutral
Hidden Neutral
Hidden Neutral

Possible Roles:
Mafia roles: Fabricator; Evil Flower Child; Shadow; Evil Vengeful; Evil Pacifist; Janitor; Evil Parrot; Evil Cat Lady; Blackmailer
Town roles: Gambler; Pacifist; Night Watchman; Tough Guy; Soul Mate; Sapling; Flower Child; Vengeful; Fancy Lady; Judge; Bully; Grave Robber; Door Salesman; Detector; Parrot; Bride; Cat Lady; Teacher
Neutral roles: Werewolf; Evil Teacher; Corruptor; Bounty Hunter; Ghost; Monk; Wild Card

Role Card:

Fabricator - Visit one person every night. That person will receive an additional fake feedback of your choice. Cannot use Corruptor's Feedback.

Evil Flower Child - During the day, choose a player to be prevented from lynching. This will be hidden and not take effect/use up the charge until the person is successfully lynched. 1x use only. It will be announced at end of the day that the person was protected. Can target self.

Shadow - Once per game you can double your team's votes during the day, while hiding all votes. (All votes for the rest of the day will become 100% anonymous. Nobody will know the vote count. All I will announce is who got lynched at the end of the day).

Evil Vengeful - You may select another player to be also killed when you are killed by any means. You must choose while alive, and may change your targets as many times as you like. The effect will trigger immediately upon death.

Evil Pacifist - Once per game you may publicly reveal a player's role to the entire game. This must be done during the day. However once you use your ability, nobody can be lynched during this day. (Day will be skipped with no lynch). Cannot target self.

Janitor - Once per game during the night you may choose to thoroughly clean the entire town. All players that die that night, and the following day (including lynching) will be cleaned, and their roles will remain hidden.

Evil Parrot - Visit a player each night. If your target have a night action, you will use the same night action on your target. Cannot target self.

Evil Cat Lady - During the day give a player a cat. At night the player may choose to either let the cat out and be roleblocked for the night, or let the cat stay, and have the Evil Cat Lady learn your role. (If your target is indecisive, the default is cat will stay for the night).

Blackmailer - Visit a player each night and blackmail them. This will prevent them from speaking or voting during the day. It will be publicly announced that your target was blackmailed. Cannot target teammates. Cannot target same player twice in a row.

Gambler - Visit a player and guess their alignment to see if you are correct or not. You may either guess if they are a member of the mafia, a member of the town, or if they are neutral third party. If you guess wrong, your identity will be revealed to the mafia.

Pacifist - Once per game you may publicly reveal a player's role to the entire game. This must be done during the day. However once you use your ability, nobody can be lynched during this day. (Day will be skipped with no lynch). Cannot target self.

Night Watchman - Thrice per game you may protect a player from dying. You can use your ability multiple times in a single night or spread them out in separate nights. Cannot target self.

Tough Guy - Visit and protect a player from dying at night. If your target is attacked, you and your attacker will see each others' roles. You will die at the end of the day. Cannot target self.

Soul Mate - Visit and protect a player from dying at night. If your target is attacked, your target will learn your identity and role, and you are bound to your target. Once bound, you may not visit again and if you OR the person you're bound to get attacked again, both of you will die. Cannot target self.

Sapling - Power in vote. Each night you may choose to grow into a tree. Once you become a tree, you cannot vote, and you will become deathproof. You will no longer count toward the town's majority for the purpose of Mafia trying to achieve 51% majority/Killers achieving 50% majority.

Flower Child - During the day, choose a player to be prevented from lynching. This will be hidden and not take effect/use up the charge until the person is successfully lynched. 1x use only. It will be announced at end of the day that the person was protected. Can target self.

Vengeful - You may select another player to be also killed when you are killed by any means. You must choose while alive, and may change your targets as many times as you like. The effect will trigger immediately upon death.

Fancy Lady - You may visit a player at night. When visiting a player, you become immune from being attacked. If your target is not sided with town, you will die, and it will be announced that you died visiting an evil player. If your target is killed at night, you will die and it will be announced that you died visiting a player that got killed. Cannot target self.

Judge - If nobody is lynched, you may overturn it to a living player of your choice. However if you tried to lynch a town, town will riot and lynch you instead. It will be announced at the end of the day that you tried to judge someone, and who got judged.

Bully - During the day, give a person a wedgie. This will prevent them from voting for the day and prevent them from taking any night actions that night. If they already placed a vote, their vote will no longer count. Wedgies are public, but Bully’s identity will remain hidden.

Grave Robber - The first town that die, you become their role. At night, you may forfeit your role, and revert back to being a grave robber. This will prevent you from taking any night actions. You will not revert back to being a graverobber until the start of the following day.

Door Salesman - Visit a player each night. If they die that night you gain 1 extra vote permanently. You can stack infinity.

Detector - Passively learn all roles that visit you each night. Once per game you may also learn the identity of each roles that visit you that night.

Parrot - Visit a player each night. If your target have a night action, you will use the same night action on your target. Cannot target self. You cannot visit the same person twice in a row.

Bride - During the day, you may give a proposal to another player. If they accept the proposal, you both see each others role and become lover. When one of you die, the other die. This will not affect either of your win conditions. If they deny the proposal, the target will be publicly revealed as someone who denied the proposal. They have 24 hours to accept the proposal.

Cat Lady - During the day give a player a cat. At night the player may choose to either let the cat out and be roleblocked for the night, or let the cat stay, and have the Cat Lady learn your role. (If your target is indecisive, the default is cat will stay for the night).

Teacher - Choose 2 players at night. Learn if their alignments match or not. (Mafia/Town/neutral). Cannot target self.

Werewolf - Visit a player to guess a player's exact role each night. If the werewolf was correct, the player will be devoured. The werewolf will become kill immune and lynch immune for 1 night and day cycle. If the werewolf was incorrect, the werewolf dies.

Evil Teacher - Choose 2 players at night. If their alignment don't match, they both will die. You may choose yourself and someone else. If they don't match your Neutral Alignment, only they will die.(Mafia/Town/Neutral). You cannot be killed by the Mafia.

Corruptor - Each night you can visit a player to glitch. That player won't be able to speak, vote, or use their role abilities the following day, and will die at the end of the day. Their roles will remain completely hidden on flip. When Corruptor die, any living players that was glitched will unglitch themselves and may resume the game normally. Players being protected cannot be glitched. You cannot be killed by the Mafia.

Bounty Hunter - Each odd nights visit a player and place a bounty on them. The bounty will prevent them from being killed at night. The bounty will be announced at the start of the day. If they are not lynched within 3 days, the bounty hunter become pernamently immune to kills and lynching. End the game with a victory the second time this happen.

Ghost - You must die by any means or forms. Once killed, you must see your killer's faction lose. When you are killed, you may haunt a player during the day to learn their alignment and role. You will have 100% complete control over their actions/role card until the start of following day. Target will not know they were haunted until the start of the following day. Being lynched will always result in wanting to see Town's faction lose. In an event of multiple killers, it will go in order of: Town > Mafia > Evil Teacher > Werewolf.

Monk - Visit a player and protect them from dying each night. During the night, predict a player who might get lynched. If they are lynched, protect them from being lynched during the day. It will be announced at end of the day that the person was protected. Exit with a win when you successfully protect a total of 3 players. Can target self. You cannot save a person that is marked with a bounty.

Wild Card - Anyone that visit you become wild. Anyone that you visit become wild. Win when everyone ALIVE are wild. You can never be wild yourself. You may pick any roles in the rolelist during the day and become that role for the rest of the day and following night. However your actions are incapable of killing anyone. Upon death, you have the ability to choose 1 more person to become Wild. (Being Wild in general does nothing except to achieve wincon for Wild Card).

Order of Operations:
1. Release the Cat
2. Fancy Lady Visit
3. Fabricator/Parrot/Night Watchman/Tough Guy/Soul Mate/Monk
4. Mafia/Werewolf/Evil Teacher kills
5. Blackmailer/Gambler/Door Salesman/Teacher/Bounty Hunter
6. Corruptor
7. Sapling Grow into Trees/Grave Robber Reverts back

Feedback:

You found a cat in your house. You must choose to either let the cat out, and be roleblocked for the night, or let the cat stay, and the Cat Lady will learn your role.

You cat came back to you, reporting that (Name) is (Role).

You are blackmailed. You cannot speak or vote today.

Your alignment's guess is correct.

Your alignment's guess is incorrect. The Mafia now know your identity!

(Name), the Gambler lost the gamble and went in debt and they owe the Mafia a lot of money.

You fought off your attacker: (Name) the (Role). You are bleeding to death, and will die at the end of the day.

(Name) the Tough Guy fought you off from killing your target.

You failed to kill your target as they were protected last night!

You fought off your attacker, and you are now bound to your target.

(Name), the Soul Mate, fought off your attacker, and is now bound to you.

You received a wedgie! You can no longer vote for the rest of the day. You cannot perform any night actions this night.

(Role), (Role), (Role)... visited you last night.

(Name and Role), (Name and Role), (Name and Role)... visited you last night.

(Name), the Bride proposed to you. You have 24 hours to decide if you want to accept the proposal. If you do not answer/Deny the proposal, it will be publicly revealed that you denied the proposal. If you accept the proposal, you and the Bride will learn each other's roles and become lover. As a lover, if one of you die, the other dies as well. This will not affect your win conditions.

(Name and Role) accepted your proposal. You are now in love with them. As a lover, if one of you die, the other dies as well. This will not affect your win conditions.

Your targets have matching alignments.

Your targets do not have matching alignments.

You successfully devoured your target. You are deathproof for 1 day and night cycle.

You have been glitched. You cannot speak or vote today. You will die at the end of the day and your role will remain hidden.

The Corruptor is dead. You are no longer glitched.

You successfully died. You now must see (Alignment) lose.

You learned that you were possessed by a ghost last night.

You haunted (Name). Their role is (Role). You have 100% complete control over their actions/role card until the start of the following day.

You successfully protected your target. You only need X more protections to win!

(Name) is now wild!

You successfully became (Role).

You successfully grew into a big beautiful tree.

You successfully reverted back to being a Grave Robber.

Mechanics:
Days are 48 hours. Nights are 24 hours.
Game start on Day 1 with a lynch.

All Neutral Roles are 100% unique. There will not be duplicate of Neutral Roles. There may be duplicate of Town and Mafia Roles.

Mafia share 24/7 chat. Mafia can decide who to send to perform a factional kill. Mafia can still perform their rolecard alongwith performing the factional kill.

Plurality vote will be used. Not voting will count as Skipping the Day. Hammering does not lynch the person or end the day. Whoever have the most votes by 48 hours will be voted out. In an event of a tie, the day is skipped.

Death Notes/Last Wills are not allowed. Roles/Alignments will be revealed upon death, but you will not know what killed them(unless stated otherwise).

Rules:
You must have discord to play. Add me powerofdeath#0997.
No editing, no deleting posts
No videos
Cannot mention anything at all from your DMs with the host. This may result in a modkill depend on severity.
If you have questions, do not hesitate to ask me on discord. If you have questions you wanted to be answered publicly ask in GREEN TEXT and I will answer them.
No cheating, contacting out of game, or playing against your win condition.
You must post at least five times every 24 hours interval. You will receive 1 warning, and will be replaced if this happen the second time. (Unless a role is preventing you from speaking).
In an event of a replacement, I may extend day by 24 more hours. (This only apply if replacement occurs within 18 hours of EotD.)

Win Condition:
Mafia: Gain 50% Majority. Must see Werewolf/Evil Teacher/Corruptor killed as well. Alternately you win with a victory if a living member of the Mafia survive to see all Town/Werewolf/Evil Teacher/Corruptor killed even if you have yet to achieve 50% majority. Victory will end the game.
Town: Have one living member (No Trees) survive to see All Mafia/Werewolf/Evil Teacher/Corruptor killed. Victory will end the game.
Werewolf: Gain 50% Majority. Victory will end the game.
Evil Teacher: Gain 50% Majority. Victory will end the game.
Corruptor: Gain 50% Majority. Victory will end the game.
Bounty Hunter: Win when 2 bounties do not get lynched on time. Victory will end the game.
Ghost: Die and see your killer's faction Lose. Victory does not end the game.
Monk: Successfully protect a total of 3 players. Victory does not end the game.
Wild Card: Win when all living players are wild. Victory does not end the game.

[powerofdeath]

I hosted Nonstandard Roles 1 and 2 back in the days and they were pretty popular. Decided to do a third edition in 2023!

I might add more crazy roles, and I will post all future edits here.

9/20 Update: I submitted this as Ready to be Reviewed.
9/22 Update: Removed blackmail from Bully. Reworded some rolecards to be more clear. Made 13th Slot potential to be hidden town or hidden neutral. Added: "Upon death, you have the ability to choose 1 more person to become Wild" to Wild Card
9/23 Update: Mafia now have 24/7 Chat.
9/29 Update: Removed Prophet rolecard. Added to Cat Lady rolecard that default is letting cat stay. Added to Town Parrot rolecard that they cannot visit the same target twice in a row. Monk cant save a person marked with a bounty.
10/2 Update: Updated Ghost's rolecard.
11/17 Update: Updated Blackmailer so that they cant target same player twice in a row(anti-unfun factor)

[Marshmallow Marshall]

This setup looks very cool at first glance ^^


3 neutrals makes this potentially very swingy. It also makes town outnumbered pretty fast (9v3v3), which is a potential balance concern. This also makes it unlikely for saplings to choose to become trees, considering how that deprives town from highly necessary votes. I think turning one Neutral slot into a Town/Neutral Hidden could be a good way to ensure optimal balance, depending on the exact roles that have been selected.

Bully might be in the realm of anti-fun, and could probably achieve similar results without being as annoying by simply removing a player's ability to vote for the day instead of silencing them entirely. This isn't a decree, btw, I'm just saying it for the sake of fun.
(If it is meant to be a town mirror for Blackmailer, this is not clearly apparent in the current role descriptions, considering it says Bully will generate "wedgies" whereas Blackmailer will generate "blackmails"; if the intent is for them to be hard to distinguish between, this should be made obvious in the setup.)

How does Shadow work, exactly? Does it hide ALL votes (i.e. make all votes private), or does it simply hide the additional votes created by the role? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

How do Pacifist/Evil Pacifist work, exactly? The current wording seems to imply nobody can ever vote again when the ability is used, but I assume that isn't the case, considering it is entirely silly xD. Is the effect limited to the day the ability is used on? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

Does the Wild Card have to die in order to win? The current rolecard seems to imply so, considering the Wild Card itself cannot be "wild". A clarification on the matter in the rolecard could be nice. Also, if that is really how the role is meant to be played, it seems incredibly difficult to pull off, to the point of the role being almost unwinnable (having to die very late into the game while surviving for a long time earlier AND targeting the right people AND making sure the game doesn't end too soon... that's a lot of constraints).

Majority-only lynch system is pretty much out of fashion (and has been so for years) and is usually disliked compared to plurality+majority, unless there is a specific design reason for it. Hence, plurality+majority is advised. Judge can still be useful in that context if people end up skipping; it can also give an interesting possible incentive to skip.
Idem for scum night-only chat as opposed to permanent chat. Permanent chat is advised.

[powerofdeath]

This setup looks very cool at first glance ^^


3 neutrals makes this potentially very swingy. It also makes town outnumbered pretty fast (9v3v3), which is a potential balance concern. This also makes it unlikely for saplings to choose to become trees, considering how that deprives town from highly necessary votes. I think turning one Neutral slot into a Town/Neutral Hidden could be a good way to ensure optimal balance, depending on the exact roles that have been selected.

Bully might be in the realm of anti-fun, and could probably achieve similar results without being as annoying by simply removing a player's ability to vote for the day instead of silencing them entirely. This isn't a decree, btw, I'm just saying it for the sake of fun.
(If it is meant to be a town mirror for Blackmailer, this is not clearly apparent in the current role descriptions, considering it says Bully will generate "wedgies" whereas Blackmailer will generate "blackmails"; if the intent is for them to be hard to distinguish between, this should be made obvious in the setup.)

How does Shadow work, exactly? Does it hide ALL votes (i.e. make all votes private), or does it simply hide the additional votes created by the role? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

How do Pacifist/Evil Pacifist work, exactly? The current wording seems to imply nobody can ever vote again when the ability is used, but I assume that isn't the case, considering it is entirely silly xD. Is the effect limited to the day the ability is used on? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

Does the Wild Card have to die in order to win? The current rolecard seems to imply so, considering the Wild Card itself cannot be "wild". A clarification on the matter in the rolecard could be nice. Also, if that is really how the role is meant to be played, it seems incredibly difficult to pull off, to the point of the role being almost unwinnable (having to die very late into the game while surviving for a long time earlier AND targeting the right people AND making sure the game doesn't end too soon... that's a lot of constraints).

Majority-only lynch system is pretty much out of fashion (and has been so for years) and is usually disliked compared to plurality+majority, unless there is a specific design reason for it. Hence, plurality+majority is advised. Judge can still be useful in that context if people end up skipping; it can also give an interesting possible incentive to skip.
Idem for scum night-only chat as opposed to permanent chat. Permanent chat is advised.

isnt 9v3v3 the norm in the arcade sc2mafia? I tend to compensate town by making it PR heavy for 3v9v3. I can also run it through with Lumi to have it pass the balance test (if Lumi isnt playing). For now I changed it to town/neutral

Yeah I could adjust Bully so it wouldnt blackmail.

Shadow make all votes 100% anonymous and even the vote count is anonymous. I will add to the rolecard to expand on it.

Pacifist just make it that nobody can be lynched the day pacifist use their powers, aka day will be skipped and it will go to next day like normal. That’s the price of revealing someone’s role publicly. I can word it better in the rolecard.

Yes Wild Card need to die. It does have the power to become any roles they want to help them, which could make or break their wincon. Though I am open to suggestions to buff it. I still want the Wild Card to die though.

I used Majority only in my last 2 games I hosted and I liked it. I’m a fan of the idea of forcing the game to use all 48 hours instead of having mafia blitz or town decide to skip too early.

As for mafia not having Day chat, the idea behind it is that they have powers to do things during the day which is already a little bit op. Though I can adjust it back if its really necessary to let them chat 24/7.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

9v3v3 is a norm on the Arcade, yes - a completely different format with different roles, different meta, and most importantly, different phase length. The Arcade is another game, and its balance standards do not apply here. If you doubt this, go host a fully vanilla game on the Arcade xD. More seriously: setups hosted on the Arcade would be infinitely townsided in FM due to massclaim potential and self-confirmable roles, which compensate for overall poor town skill, little time, and sheer numbers. This is just one example of the aspects that make FM and the Arcade so different, and I'm pretty sure noone seriously considered Arcade balancing standards as remotely valid for FM in the last years.
If you want to Lumify the setup and Lumi agrees, it can always be a good idea, yes.

Regarding Wild Card: What about a one-charge ability that makes a target player "wildify" anyone they visit (can be multitasked with normal wildification)?
Also, just to make sure, being "wild" does absolutely nothing apart from contributing to the Wild Card's wincon, right?

Regarding lynch system: Oh, I get it now. That is not what majority vote means, though: you're referring to plurality-only, which is much better. Majority is the 50 % + 1 rule (the one that results in hammer). You basically want to disable hammers, which is fine, although some may find it bothersome in the later stages of the game.
I also notice that ties result in skipping the day, which is a highly unusual mechanic. I'm not sure what the point of it is, and believe it needs to be justified. If you do keep this in the game, it will have to be highlighted to be made very obvious, because people will 100 % assume ties are decided by coinflip like in the great majority of games.

Regarding mafia day chat: It's usually considered as a quality of life feature + one that enables skill-based outcome differences, which results in a better quality game overall. This is why the policy of FM staff is to make 24/7 scumchats default unless there is a setup design reason for it; the idea isn't to use it as a balance tool, and it's generally best to just use something else to do this. See this thread (and maybe specifically this post of mine) for the community discussion on the topic if you're interested.


Edit: Also just saying that while I'm criticizing/looking to fix stuff, I love the setup and really look forward to playing it!

[powerofdeath]

Oops yeah I always confuse majority vs plurarity

Being Wild does nothing. I will add to rolecard to clarify. I also added: Upon death, you have the ability to choose 1 more person to become Wild.

Mafia have potential to Pacify, use Flower Child, Shadow the votes, and even have Vengeful change targets during the day. Hence the reasons for no discussion between the Mafia during the day. They gotta discuss everything out at night. I may even add more rolecards for Mafia to make it easier for them to hide behind claims.

If the rules are still very strict about it, I will make it 24/7.

I hate the idea of coinflip and letting "RNG" decide the outcome of tie votes. If you have better ideas than to skip the day, let me know.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Oops yeah I always confuse majority vs plurarity

Being Wild does nothing. I will add to rolecard to clarify. I also added: Upon death, you have the ability to choose 1 more person to become Wild.

Mafia have potential to Pacify, use Flower Child, Shadow the votes, and even have Vengeful change targets during the day. Hence the reasons for no discussion between the Mafia during the day. They gotta discuss everything out at night. I may even add more rolecards for Mafia to make it easier for them to hide behind claims.

If the rules are still very strict about it, I will make it 24/7.

I hate the idea of coinflip and letting "RNG" decide the outcome of tie votes. If you have better ideas than to skip the day, let me know.

Regarding Wildcard: Sounds good; it at least gives wildcard some leeway.

Regarding permanent mafia chat: I would have thought it makes the game even more interesting if the Mafia can coordinate their powerful day actions if their skill level is high enough, making room for spectacular and thoroughly skill-dependent mafia plays; balancing can be achieved through other means. That said, if you really want night-only specifically because of the design of scum rolecards, I won't force you to change it; I however maintain the suggestion.

Regarding coinflip in ties: You're probably one of the first people I hear saying that, tbh, so I'm not sure how popular that concern is, but I can see where it comes from. The only actual low-complexity alternative I see would be to have all tied people get lynched, which is how Paradox Interactive FM games handle it (TIE FOR THE TIE GODS). As a player, I wholeheartedly prefer the coinflip option, especially in a setup where the focus is supposed to be on the "nonstandard roles" that bring interesting interactions rather than on playing around the lynch system, but that's just personal preference. However, if you do choose to go through with the "ties result in skipping the day" mechanic, it is imperative that you make it very clear for players, because people are otherwise likely going to miss it lol (as much as they're supposed to have read the setup).

[powerofdeath]

Regarding Wildcard: Sounds good; it at least gives wildcard some leeway.

Regarding permanent mafia chat: I would have thought it makes the game even more interesting if the Mafia can coordinate their powerful day actions if their skill level is high enough, making room for spectacular and thoroughly skill-dependent mafia plays; balancing can be achieved through other means. That said, if you really want night-only specifically because of the design of scum rolecards, I won't force you to change it; I however maintain the suggestion.

Regarding coinflip in ties: You're probably one of the first people I hear saying that, tbh, so I'm not sure how popular that concern is, but I can see where it comes from. The only actual low-complexity alternative I see would be to have all tied people get lynched, which is how Paradox Interactive FM games handle it (TIE FOR THE TIE GODS). As a player, I wholeheartedly prefer the coinflip option, especially in a setup where the focus is supposed to be on the "nonstandard roles" that bring interesting interactions rather than on playing around the lynch system, but that's just personal preference. However, if you do choose to go through with the "ties result in skipping the day" mechanic, it is imperative that you make it very clear for players, because people are otherwise likely going to miss it lol (as much as they're supposed to have read the setup).

Okay I guess I'll compromise. Mafia will get 24/7 chat, but I am keeping the skip if tied votes.
I already highlighted it in white. I will also mention it few times when game start and during signup.

[powerofdeath]

Heavily considering removing Prophet. It doesnt look fun to play.

[MartinGG99]

I promise to get around to reviewing this but considering this is full of non-standard roles I won't be getting to it until a few days from now. I'd like to have plenty of time in one sitting to look at it. As far as I'm aware Geyde is going to be the next host so there's also no rush in reviewing this.

[MartinGG99]

Apologies for the delay. I'll be more active the next few days.

I also notice that ties result in skipping the day, which is a highly unusual mechanic. I'm not sure what the point of it is, and believe it needs to be justified. If you do keep this in the game, it will have to be highlighted to be made very obvious, because people will 100 % assume ties are decided by coinflip like in the great majority of games.

I hate the idea of coinflip and letting "RNG" decide the outcome of tie votes. If you have better ideas than to skip the day, let me know.

One thing I've done in the past as host is have tie decisions be semi-arbritary. Say, for example, whoever posts first in a day phase gets to live or whoever has the longest / shortest username. Maybe even just randomly assign everyone a number at game-start and whoever has lowest number is chopped. Obviously, to each example there are pros/cons and to some extent could be similarly RNG-based, but its to give you an idea without making an absurdly complex tie resolution system.

Personally, I don't quite care if ties are RNG or skip day. I think RNG is most common, but I don't think its so common so as to assume every game does that. But maybe in certain communities you would assume that. In principle though I do agree with MM that good communication practices would be great in this regard.

Evil Flower Child-During the day, choose a player to be prevented from lynching. This will be hidden and not take effect/use up the charge until the person is successfully lynched. 1x use only. It will be announced at end of the day that the person was protected. Can target self.

wat. I assume this means until a different person is successfuly dead-ed by vote that day? Or does this mean like you can keep using it till someone actually would be eliminated but instead are saved?

Evil Cat Lady - During the day give a player a cat. At night the player may choose to either let the cat out and be roleblocked for the night, or let the cat stay, and have the Evil Cat Lady learn your role.

What happens if a player refuses to respond to the inquiry? Is it just RNG? Does it just default to letting the cat stay? It should clarify this imo, even if you could conjecture the last case.


Tough Guy, Soul Mate, Sapling are all preety cool.

Fancy Lady - You may visit a player at night. When visiting a player, you become immune from being attacked. If your target is not sided with town, you will die, and it will be announced that you died visiting an evil player. If your target is killed at night, you will die and it will be announced that you died visiting a player that got killed. Cannot target self.

I got concerns that Fancy Lady could be over-powered or maybe even game-breaking at late-game. On paper, It has reasonable draw-backs, but I don't think the mafia have a viable/reliable counter-play in the early-to-mid game if people other than the Fancy Lady start fake-claiming that -- if they're the fancy lady, they're visiting X or Y -- as the entire power of Fancy Lady lies in its ability to not die unless its target is non-town or dies as well. There's basically all the reason to have separate fake-claims for Fancy Lady from everyone in the game and practically no draw-backs to it, which makes mafia's way of dealing with this quite difficult. Add in the fact that, at this point of my reading from top to down, I haven't really seen any redirectors and etc and so not only if a Fancy Lady dies late-game then a mafia is revealed but also the Fancy Lady flip reveals a bunch of people being town late-game. Which is just nightmare fuel for the mafia, and since this is so powerful, this sort of mass-fake-claim issue will be caused (assuming optimal play) in every game regardless of Fancy Lady's actual existence.

Honestly, may want to re-work that role directly or giving the mafia some sort of factional instead of adjusting what roles the mafia have available to them. Even if mafia had like a dedicated role to defeating this, there's a chance that they lose that role early-game and we just return to the same issues I mention here about it.

Door Salesman - Visit a player each night. If they die that night you gain 1 extra vote permanently. You can stack infinity.

What kind of salesman is this lmao, life insurance scammer or something???

Parrot - Visit a player each night. If your target have a night action, you will use the same night action on your target. Cannot target self.

Another reason to re-work Fancy Lady: Parrot + Fancy Lady can create an infinite loop of night immunity to each-other.

.

Anyways I'm going to be done for the moment. I'll look at the neutrals and other stuff of the setup later.

[powerofdeath]

Apologies for the delay. I'll be more active the next few days.



One thing I've done in the past as host is have tie decisions be semi-arbritary. Say, for example, whoever posts first in a day phase gets to live or whoever has the longest / shortest username. Maybe even just randomly assign everyone a number at game-start and whoever has lowest number is chopped. Obviously, to each example there are pros/cons and to some extent could be similarly RNG-based, but its to give you an idea without making an absurdly complex tie resolution system.

Personally, I don't quite care if ties are RNG or skip day. I think RNG is most common, but I don't think its so common so as to assume every game does that. But maybe in certain communities you would assume that. In principle though I do agree with MM that good communication practices would be great in this regard.

I'm just gonna keep the skip day.

wat. I assume this means until a different person is successfuly dead-ed by vote that day? Or does this mean like you can keep using it till someone actually would be eliminated but instead are saved?

They can keep using it until their target actually would be eliminated, then it get used up and they get saved. If you use it on Bob during the day, and bob doesnt get lynched that day, you can use it again next day. If Bob did get lynched, then it get used up.

What happens if a player refuses to respond to the inquiry? Is it just RNG? Does it just default to letting the cat stay? It should clarify this imo, even if you could conjecture the last case.

I'll add to the rolecard that no reply = let the cat stay.

Tough Guy, Soul Mate, Sapling are all preety cool.

ty

I got concerns that Fancy Lady could be over-powered or maybe even game-breaking at late-game. On paper, It has reasonable draw-backs, but I don't think the mafia have a viable/reliable counter-play in the early-to-mid game if people other than the Fancy Lady start fake-claiming that -- if they're the fancy lady, they're visiting X or Y -- as the entire power of Fancy Lady lies in its ability to not die unless its target is non-town or dies as well. There's basically all the reason to have separate fake-claims for Fancy Lady from everyone in the game and practically no draw-backs to it, which makes mafia's way of dealing with this quite difficult. Add in the fact that, at this point of my reading from top to down, I haven't really seen any redirectors and etc and so not only if a Fancy Lady dies late-game then a mafia is revealed but also the Fancy Lady flip reveals a bunch of people being town late-game. Which is just nightmare fuel for the mafia, and since this is so powerful, this sort of mass-fake-claim issue will be caused (assuming optimal play) in every game regardless of Fancy Lady's actual existence.

You can pretty much think of it as an alignment cop. There is no last will in this game. If they visit mafia and die, and never informed town who they visit, well RIP!
If they announce theyre going to visit X, mafia can just kill X and get Fancy Lady killed as well. 2 birds for 1 stone. If X is mafia, then Fancy Lady gave up their life to find 1 mafia. If they announce they will visit X to wifom mafia, and visit Y, and still died. Town is gonna lynch X and it will end up being a mislynch. All which is a major risk when they claim their target.
If they announce they are going to visit "one of X or Y" to keep mafia from knowing which target, this also keep town from knowing which target too, and die next day for finding mafia. then X and Y are basically counter claims. Mafia will have to try to win that CC.


Honestly, may want to re-work that role directly or giving the mafia some sort of factional instead of adjusting what roles the mafia have available to them. Even if mafia had like a dedicated role to defeating this, there's a chance that they lose that role early-game and we just return to the same issues I mention here about it.



What kind of salesman is this lmao, life insurance scammer or something???

Leave it up to your imagination :P

Another reason to re-work Fancy Lady: Parrot + Fancy Lady can create an infinite loop of night immunity to each-other.

I'll make it so that town Parrot cannot visit same target two in a row. Good catch.



Anyways I'm going to be done for the moment. I'll look at the neutrals and other stuff of the setup later.

I also removed Prophet role card. I just recently played a game in FOL (and won) as a neutral third party, this gave me insight on what could be fun to play as when youre third party, and Prophet just doesnt seem fun at all. You just literally pick a day, then afk rest of the game.

[MartinGG99]

You can pretty much think of it as an alignment cop. There is no last will in this game. If they visit mafia and die, and never informed town who they visit, well RIP!
If they announce theyre going to visit X, mafia can just kill X and get Fancy Lady killed as well. 2 birds for 1 stone. If X is mafia, then Fancy Lady gave up their life to find 1 mafia. If they announce they will visit X to wifom mafia, and visit Y, and still died. Town is gonna lynch X and it will end up being a mislynch. All which is a major risk when they claim their target.
If they announce they are going to visit "one of X or Y" to keep mafia from knowing which target, this also keep town from knowing which target too, and die next day for finding mafia. then X and Y are basically counter claims. Mafia will have to try to win that CC.

This cannot be so easily done if every single player proclaims to be the Fancy Lady (or that if they were fancy lady), and they would visit [insert player's choice of target]. All it requires is the real Fancy Lady is truthful, and the mafia would be none the wiser while if the Fancy Lady dies then all you gotta do is look at the Fancy Lady's iso to see what they claimed. If anyone else was actually the fancy lady instead, you would do a similar procedure since they (along with everyone else in the game) proclaimed their targets as if they were the real Fancy Lady. Under such circumstance, Fancy Lady would have little reason to WIFOM too since being truthful (among the mass of fake-claims) is a major component of this working. If they legitimately can't decide which they would visit, maybe they do say "I will visit one of X or Y" but in the case they die and no one of X/Y dies then they know a mafia is in there.

Thus, there is basically no way to tell who the Fancy Lady is if everyone proclaims to be it. And that's an issue that only hurts the non-town. Like say Fancy Lady dies n3. Because they didn't die earlier, their proclaimed target on d2 (for n2) is definitively town and possibly proclaimed target on d1 as well if that target is still alive by that stage of the game. Fancy Lady's proclaimed target on d3 (for n3) would be indiscriminately chopped because what they proclaimed d3 is what they would visit n3. Mafia would've not had a good chance to tell who Fancy Lady actually is unless they were insanely good and managed to pin everyone else as a non-fancy-lady role.

What you have then is an almost night-immune alignment cop with a last will recording their last actions, even if last wills don't exist. Especially if everyone plays optimally and does not lie, as Fancy Lady, what their proclaimed targets are. With 12 players (from the perspective of mafia) or 14 players (from the perspective of neutrals) all claiming Fancy Lady, whittling that down to whoever is the Fancy Lady before fancy lady manages to get a few good checks off is almost entirely luck-driven. There would be no way to discern the real Fancy Lady claim until the flip, and since everyone would be claiming targets, no matter who the Fancy Lady is there'll be an obvious trail to figuring out who they targeted.

I should add a caveat though, in some cases in the sea of fake-claims you could (as mafia) maybe figure out who's most likely to be targeted by Fancy Lady instead of figuring who is the Fancy Lady. But that's really only something that gains reliability in the late-game, at a point where killing Fancy Lady may actually be the worst decision ever (because in order for Fancy Lady to live that long, they will have met several town players who may still be alive as well). So its really not a good solution for the mafia to use to defeat a mass-claim-Fancy-Lady scenario, but its among the best they have currently as far as I can think of.


I still have yet to check the neutrals, I just wanted to clarify this point.

[powerofdeath]

I understand Fancy Lady is a strong role. I will keep the balance in mind of this. This setup is all Hidden(not random) so i basically come up with the setup that I deem is balanced

[powerofdeath]

Updated Monk’s role, they cant save someone who is marked with a bounty.

[powerofdeath]

This cannot be so easily done if every single player proclaims to be the Fancy Lady (or that if they were fancy lady), and they would visit [insert player's choice of target]. All it requires is the real Fancy Lady is truthful, and the mafia would be none the wiser while if the Fancy Lady dies then all you gotta do is look at the Fancy Lady's iso to see what they claimed. If anyone else was actually the fancy lady instead, you would do a similar procedure since they (along with everyone else in the game) proclaimed their targets as if they were the real Fancy Lady. Under such circumstance, Fancy Lady would have little reason to WIFOM too since being truthful (among the mass of fake-claims) is a major component of this working. If they legitimately can't decide which they would visit, maybe they do say "I will visit one of X or Y" but in the case they die and no one of X/Y dies then they know a mafia is in there.

Thus, there is basically no way to tell who the Fancy Lady is if everyone proclaims to be it. And that's an issue that only hurts the non-town. Like say Fancy Lady dies n3. Because they didn't die earlier, their proclaimed target on d2 (for n2) is definitively town and possibly proclaimed target on d1 as well if that target is still alive by that stage of the game. Fancy Lady's proclaimed target on d3 (for n3) would be indiscriminately chopped because what they proclaimed d3 is what they would visit n3. Mafia would've not had a good chance to tell who Fancy Lady actually is unless they were insanely good and managed to pin everyone else as a non-fancy-lady role.

What you have then is an almost night-immune alignment cop with a last will recording their last actions, even if last wills don't exist. Especially if everyone plays optimally and does not lie, as Fancy Lady, what their proclaimed targets are. With 12 players (from the perspective of mafia) or 14 players (from the perspective of neutrals) all claiming Fancy Lady, whittling that down to whoever is the Fancy Lady before fancy lady manages to get a few good checks off is almost entirely luck-driven. There would be no way to discern the real Fancy Lady claim until the flip, and since everyone would be claiming targets, no matter who the Fancy Lady is there'll be an obvious trail to figuring out who they targeted.

I should add a caveat though, in some cases in the sea of fake-claims you could (as mafia) maybe figure out who's most likely to be targeted by Fancy Lady instead of figuring who is the Fancy Lady. But that's really only something that gains reliability in the late-game, at a point where killing Fancy Lady may actually be the worst decision ever (because in order for Fancy Lady to live that long, they will have met several town players who may still be alive as well). So its really not a good solution for the mafia to use to defeat a mass-claim-Fancy-Lady scenario, but its among the best they have currently as far as I can think of.


I still have yet to check the neutrals, I just wanted to clarify this point.

Also Fancy Lady could die visiting a neutral.

[MartinGG99]

Well, so long as you're mindful that it can be preety strong if it lives to late-game, I don't see any other issues with that role. I'm also aware that it can die when visiting neutrals, but as far as town is concerned that is still a caught non-town and if its later than n1 then Fancy Lady either did not visit anyone or they did visit a town who's probably still alive at that point. I was just trying to make it clear that the lack of last wills doesn't really prevent the town and Fancy Lady concocting a plan to effectively make a public last will without mafia knowing which is real.

Edit: Sorry if it seems I'm on repeat lol. I just wanted to be extra clear is all, since your first (earlier, with the white text in the quotes) response seemed to treat it as if it was going to be prevented from easily revealing people as town or non-town when I don't think that is the case. But, as I've said, so long as you're aware I don't mind too much about the role's potential existence.

[MartinGG99]

Looking at the rest of the setup, only concern I had is the fundamental king-maker nature of Ghost, and its unclear as to how its "killer" is determined if they die via plurality vote. Otherwise setup seems good to go especially since its hidden and can be fine-tuned there via host's judgement.

Edit: Since this likely to be addressed before signups are posted when it's your turn in the Queue, I'm just adding this to the Queue. I'll move this thread to the approved section when full approval is given.

[powerofdeath]

Looking at the rest of the setup, only concern I had is the fundamental king-maker nature of Ghost, and its unclear as to how its "killer" is determined if they die via plurality vote. Otherwise setup seems good to go especially since its hidden and can be fine-tuned there via host's judgement.

Edit: Since this likely to be addressed before signups are posted when it's your turn in the Queue, I'm just adding this to the Queue. I'll move this thread to the approved section when full approval is given.

I'll add to rolecard that being lynched will always result in wanting the Town dead. I also included situations in an event of multiple killers.

[MartinGG99]

Just noting here that current MM and I support approval of this setup. MM has suggested that maybe Lumi take a look just in case, but that may be some time since Lumi is a bit busy atm.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Just noting here that current MM and I support approval of this setup. MM has suggested that maybe Lumi take a look just in case, but that may be some time since Lumi is a bit busy atm.

I am approving this setup as per @MartinGG99 's good judgment and my own, considering the last game ended and @Lumi is still busy; further comments may still be made here, but everything should be fine.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...les-3?p=996223

Putting the last page of the game here for the sake of rebalancing if we want to re-run this setup eventually, which is not unfathomable in my opinion, although a few changes would be nice. (doesn't have to be now or soon)

Edit by MartinGG99: PoD has suggested this for future potential hosts

Recommended edits for anyone who want to host this in the future.

Janitor -> Does not use up a charge if somehow nobody die or get lynched for the whole night and day.
Ghost -> Cannot haunt the same players 2 nights in a row
Bounty Hunter -> Redesign the role completely imo. The way it currently stand is almost unwinnable or even scrap it out entirely.
Werewolves -> Cannot devour fully grown trees
Sapling -> Be more clear with how becoming a tree impact the game. Include in the rolecard that becoming a tree doesnt make you IC.
Door Salesman -> Include in the rolecard that getting extra votes isn't public and nobody know their votes count as 2+. This prevent them from becoming IC.
Wild Card -> I would say let Wild Card pick 1 player to be Wild at Start of Game + 1 player to be Wild upon death to make it easier for them to win.
Detector - Becareful of including this role as it can break game if everyone mass claim day 1. Just balance around it, just like you need to balance around Fancy Lady too.

If you are gonna include more roles and stuff, I suggest more VT variants beside just Saplings. Also more creative neutrals. Feel free to add and remove roles, since if youre gonna host it, you can choose roles for this. I recommend to include more visiting roles in general but nothing too gamebreaking for Wild Card.