Improve Roles

[Trenix]

Disguiser

He should not be able to kill people. It's sort of unfair that mafia can kill two people at one night, or possibly even more depending on how many disguisers the mafia has. Instead, he should be like the janitor. Selecting a person who will die that following night will make you be disguised as him. In addition, he should be able to disguise multiple times because of this. This would make it more balanced.

Janitor

The janitor should know the role of the players he sanitizes rather than their last will because sometimes hosts will decide not to enable last wills. In those situations, a janitor will be completely useless. In addition, the janitor is an ineffective role currently, because it's pretty difficult finding out the role that he sanitized. Lets face it, majority of players troll their last wills. If this was added more roles will become useful. For example, the Coroner, who would always find the janitor's bluffs. The spy would also be more useful, because the janitor will have to tell the mafia what roles he sanitized.

Cultist

Killing the main cultist should make converted players go back to their original roles. Otherwise, cultists are pretty overpowered if you ask me.

Mason/Mason Leader

These role ideas are broken. It's unnecessary to have two different roles for the same organization. That's like us having a cultist and a cultist leader in a game, which is highly unnecessary. In my opinion, you should only have one mason in a game, not multiple masons or a mason leader. That mason should technically be the mason leader, carrying all his abilities. He should then have to recruit citizens into his organization. This could be the key to making citizens actually useful for once. Recruited masons will not be able to recruit masons, only the main mason can recruit.

In addition, if the mason leader attempts to recruit a mafia member or a neutral killing role, it will reveal his name as well as all of the masons to the mafia member or neutral killing role. If the mason leader dies, the mason organization does not get disbanded.

Survivor

Lets be honest, the bullet proof vest is a very lame and boring ability. Instead, a survivor should have a different ability called, "Human Shield". If the survivor gets attacked and he used his ability on someone, that player will die instead of him. This would give this role a bigger power and would make it less boring. This ability will also be limited and selecting the player who's killing you as a human shield will get yourself killed.

Executioner

It's rather lame that if you fail your goal, you lose or you become a jester. This just shows that the role is incomplete, especially since it requires the executioner to be turned into another role in order for this role to be useful. So instead of succumbing to that, why not give the executioner two goals instead of one? The executioner should win if he kills a target that is town, or if he lynches all the mafia. That way if he fails his goal, he could still complete the other one.

Vigilante

If the vigilante goes to visit the same person as the mafia, the vigilante should die.

[Sookie]

Disguiser

He should not be able to kill people. It's sort of unfair that mafia can kill two people at one night, or possibly even more depending on how many disguisers the mafia has. Instead, he should be like the janitor. Selecting a person who will die that following night will make you be disguised as him. In addition, he should be able to disguise multiple times because of this. This would make it more balanced.

Cultist

Killing the main cultist should make converted players go back to their original roles. Otherwise, cultists are pretty overpowered if you ask me.

Mason/Mason Leader

These role ideas are broken. It's unnecessary to have two different roles for the same organization. That's like us having a cultist and a cultist leader in a game, which is highly unnecessary. In my opinion, you should only have one mason in a game, not multiple masons or a mason leader. That mason should technically be the mason leader, carrying all his abilities. He should then have to recruit citizens into his organization. This could be the key to making citizens actually useful for once. Recruited masons will not be able to recruit masons, only the main mason can recruit.

In addition, if the mason leader attempts to recruit a mafia member or a neutral killing role, it will reveal his name as well as all of the masons to the mafia member or neutral killing role. If the mason leader dies, the mason organization does not get disbanded.

Survivor

Lets be honest, the bullet proof vest is a very lame and boring ability. Instead, a survivor should have a different ability called, "Human Shield". If the survivor gets attacked and he used his ability on someone, that player will die instead of him. This would give this role a bigger power and would make it less boring. This ability will also be limited and selecting the player who's killing you as a human shield will get yourself killed.

Executioner

It's rather lame that if you fail your goal, you lose or you become a jester. This just shows that the role is incomplete, especially since it requires the executioner to be turned into another role in order for this role to be useful. So instead of succumbing to that, why not give the executioner two goals instead of one? The executioner should win if he kills a target that is town, or if he lynches all the mafia. That way if he fails his goal, he could still complete the other one.

Vigilante

If the vigilante goes to visit the same person as the mafia, the vigilante should die.

lessee, first off most disguisers are kinda easy to find after they disguise as they don't stay in character. pay close attention to the way people talk their word choice, their grammar, their punctuation. if a suspected disguiser kill happens pay attention to whom is out of character and they are very likely him.

i personally don't like cultists. they can be over powered with certain settings in certain games, but for the most part if there's a night between conversions it equals out to be fine. sometimes their convert dosent work becoause the person they targeted died or cant be converted. so it really does even out.

a Mason leader is very important in a game that has cultist, iirc if a mason leader visits a cultist he kills them and visa-versa. that alone makes it very powerful. plus he can convert citizens to masons.

survivor is one of my favorite roles, you get to kick back and spectate the game while taking part a little bit here and there. just because it doesn't have uber power roles doesn't mean its worthless or boring. also since you cna win with anyone so long as you live your free to make any choice you wnat and support whom ever you feel like, that is your power in the game.

executioner is a powerful class and very dangerous for the town in most cases, sometimes even for the mafia if the settings allow it. play your cards right you can normally get your target on day 2 or 3. if your target dies just play like a jester does. be thankful you have that freedom if you "lose" you still have a chance to win.

i don't see why a vig should be a pseudo bodyguard in that situation. vig is a great role, but it is entirely dependent on the person behind the gun. plus, the whole take the bullet thing is already provided by the bodyguard. if a vig has a double function like that it would a bit overpowered, not to mention not make much sense. you got to a house to kill a dude, but instead decide to take a bullet for him??

these roles listed are balanced and just fine. just because you dislike them or have your own opinions about them doesn't make them bad or wrong and need to be changed for everyone.

[Trenix]

lessee, first off most disguisers are kinda easy to find after they disguise as they don't stay in character. pay close attention to the way people talk their word choice, their grammar, their punctuation. if a suspected disguiser kill happens pay attention to whom is out of character and they are very likely him.

I don't need tips. It's overpowered in the hands of someone who's not a starcraft idiot. What mafia game allows the mafia to kill two people in one night?

i personally don't like cultists. they can be over powered with certain settings in certain games, but for the most part if there's a night between conversions it equals out to be fine. sometimes their convert dosent work becoause the person they targeted died or cant be converted. so it really does even out.

The problem is when someone does get converted, the game wont end until they're all dead. They're just an infestation that's highly difficult to stop.

a Mason leader is very important in a game that has cultist, iirc if a mason leader visits a cultist he kills them and visa-versa. that alone makes it very powerful. plus he can convert citizens to masons.

I know what a mason leader does. All I'm saying is that there should only be one mason that will recruit everyone during the game. Another words, there should be only a mason leader and masons should only be recruits.

survivor is one of my favorite roles, you get to kick back and spectate the game while taking part a little bit here and there. just because it doesn't have uber power roles doesn't mean its worthless or boring. also since you cna win with anyone so long as you live your free to make any choice you wnat and support whom ever you feel like, that is your power in the game.

This game is not about sitting back and spectating. It's about having discussions and making wise decisions. Not only is the bullet proof vest a boring ability, it also stretches our game longer than it's supposed to. So my idea would just make the survivor be more powerful and strategic.

executioner is a powerful class and very dangerous for the town in most cases, sometimes even for the mafia if the settings allow it. play your cards right you can normally get your target on day 2 or 3. if your target dies just play like a jester does. be thankful you have that freedom if you "lose" you still have a chance to win.

The general setting is that your target is town. The executioner renders useless after he fails his role and that's why he turns into a jester. It's a lame way to improve a crippled role.

i don't see why a vig should be a pseudo bodyguard in that situation. vig is a great role, but it is entirely dependent on the person behind the gun. plus, the whole take the bullet thing is already provided by the bodyguard. if a vig has a double function like that it would a bit overpowered, not to mention not make much sense. you got to a house to kill a dude, but instead decide to take a bullet for him??

You read it wrong. If you go trying to kill a person that the mafia is trying to kill, not only will that person die, but the mafia will kill the vigilante too. It makes sense, two people attempting to kill the same person and then bumping into each other. The mafia should win in that outcome because the vigilante targeted the wrong person. It's nothing like a bodyguard, because the bodyguard kills the mafia during his protection process.

these roles listed are balanced and just fine. just because you dislike them or have your own opinions about them doesn't make them bad or wrong and need to be changed for everyone.

You disliked every idea and didn't even consider any of it. Clearly you're just being stubborn. These ideas were from epicmafia and a few were from myself. I suggested these ideas because it could definitely improve the game as well as these roles.

[Sookie]

You disliked every idea and didn't even consider any of it. Clearly you're just being stubborn. These ideas were from epicmafia and a few were from myself. I suggested these ideas because it could definitely improve the game as well as these roles.

i've played enough mafia to see how these ideas would be out of place, so yes i did take the time to think about them and still came to my conclusions. also the fact you call the survivor lame and boring shows to me that you you don't see the value in it. there's more to mafia then tigger happy vig shooting, bus driver trolling and jailing people. its the less powerful roles that require you to think for yourself and not have to rely on a powerful power that make mafia really special.

also i think your the stubborn one coming back to try and counter my points i used to counter your own. i could continue the cycle and counter the points you made a 2nd time, but i get the impression your a very opinionated person that hates to lose and it would be pointless as you would just come up with something else to complain about in something i said.

so I'll just close with saying the roles are fine as is and leave it at that.

[Ash]

Survivor

Lets be honest, the bullet proof vest is a very lame and boring ability. Instead, a survivor should have a different ability called, "Human Shield". If the survivor gets attacked and he used his ability on someone, that player will die instead of him. This would give this role a bigger power and would make it less boring. This ability will also be limited and selecting the player who's killing you as a human shield will get yourself killed.

Executioner

It's rather lame that if you fail your goal, you lose or you become a jester. This just shows that the role is incomplete, especially since it requires the executioner to be turned into another role in order for this role to be useful. So instead of succumbing to that, why not give the executioner two goals instead of one? The executioner should win if he kills a target that is town, or if he lynches all the mafia. That way if he fails his goal, he could still complete the other one.

Vigilante

If the vigilante goes to visit the same person as the mafia, the vigilante should die.

Survivor does not need any improvements.. It is not lame because it balances the game. If every role was lame because they can't kill then every role should have a fucking kill so they won't be lame. If it's called survivor it is because he has to survive and not deflect bullets.

As for executioner, it is not a bad idea but it wouldn't be so challenging if it has two goals. If executioner has two goals, he can always betray the losing side and win easily.

As for vigilante I have to agree with Sookie, but it is a good idea because it would make troll vigilantes think twice.

I have no problem with your cult suggestion.

But for your disguiser.. It seems IMBA for disguiser to be switching identity every day.. He would be able to send lies and lies and try to lynch innocent townies at day.

[Trenix]

i've played enough mafia to see how these ideas would be out of place, so yes i did take the time to think about them and still came to my conclusions.

I really wish I could see where you countered my points. All you did was try and give me tips and tell me how these roles work. Trust me, I know more roles than you could even imagine. Congratulations, you played mafia on Starcraft. That must mean you know all about the original game; not. These role ideas are part of actual mafia games and they never ruined them.

Survivor does not need any improvements.. It is not lame because it balances the game. If every role was lame because they can't kill then every role should have a fucking kill so they won't be lame. If it's called survivor it is because he has to survive and not deflect bullets.

The survivor doesn't kill anyone, nor did I ever ask for him to kill anyone. All he does is put someone else's life at risk for a night rather than his own. Besides, you says that he shouldn't deflect bullets but he has a bullet proof vest. Interesting..

But for your disguiser.. It seems IMBA for disguiser to be switching identity every day.. He would be able to send lies and lies and try to lynch innocent townies at day.

But its fair that he gets easily revealed from lag? Besides, you think it will be overpowered but what if the player he selected did not end up dying that night? Then you didn't disguise yourself and you're at risk of being found out.

[Ash]

The survivor doesn't kill anyone, nor did I ever ask for him to kill anyone. All he does is put someone else's life at risk for a night rather than his own. Besides, you says that he shouldn't deflect bullets but he has a bullet proof vest. Interesting..

But is fair that he get easily revealed from lag. Besides, you think it's overpowered but what if the player he selected did not end up dying that night. Then you didn't disguise yourself.

If I was a town, I wouldn't want that survivor alive then, technically survivor would be trying to grab attention and kill as much town as possible by deflecting bullets. Survivor goal is to survive. If you want to make a new role that also wants to survive then you might as well name it Bullet Deflector.

Your disguiser suggestion is overpowered because statistics show that 70% mafia attacks are successful, unless you have over 9000 doctors/bodyguards. It wouldn't take as much skill as our current disguiser because all you do is jump and jump and jump your identity, sheriffs/invests won't almost have enough time to even find you. Just detectives.

[NorthStar]

I hate it when Trenix makes a suggestion, it's all useless and total bullshit...

[Trenix]

If I was a town, I wouldn't want that survivor alive then, technically survivor would be trying to grab attention and kill as much town as possible by deflecting bullets. Survivor goal is to survive. If you want to make a new role that also wants to survive then you might as well name it Bullet Deflector.

Human shield will be a limited ability, just like the bulletproof vest is. While he can grab people's attention, it will do nothing but get himself lynched or killed eventually. Besides, you're making it seem like survivors never team up with the mafia. I usually kill survivors because they always do what best suits them. Also, the survivor could also get a mafia killed too from this ability. So it's really not in anyone's best interest, besides it's own. Sort of like how a survivor should be, a loner. You're making it seem like he's part of the town alignment.

Lets also remember that it's not a killing ability. Either way, the mafia will kill someone. However if they go to kill the survivor while he used his ability, then the survivor now is in charge of who dies.

Your disguiser suggestion is overpowered because statistics show that 70% mafia attacks are successful, unless you have over 9000 doctors/bodyguards. It wouldn't take as much skill as our current disguiser because all you do is jump and jump and jump your identity, sheriffs/invests won't almost have enough time to even find you. Just detectives.

You can still find him in plenty of ways. First off, you might get lucky with an investigator, sheriff, lookout, or detective. Also, what if a body guard gets him killed? Then, you can also watch how he writes. Also if you notice that random people suddenly get overly talkative, chances are that he's the disguiser. I honestly don't think it'll be that overpowered. If he starts blaming people who clearly are innocent, then he will get lynched soon enough. The good part is that one less person died from the mafia that game.

I hate it when Trenix makes a suggestion, it's all useless ad total bullshit...

Just like your responses. Are you going to argue that Canada owns America next? And if I must add, at least epicmafia.com knows how to spell jailer.

[Trenix]

Look at this tryhard troll, get a life bro, you probably played mafia and lost 69 times in a row and were like, WOW! THESE ROLES SUCK! Then you QQed and got on here to make a thread because you don't know how to play disguiser or any role, l2p, I'm MLG mafia player sponsored by razer and logitech, make $100k a year, pretty good for playing a game! If I say you're bad, you're bad.

I'm actually not bad, I rarely lose. Just feel the roles can be improved, sorry that it's so bad to ask for suggestions on these forums.

[NorthStar]

This fucking grammar nazi brings geography into a discussion about the differences between British and American spellings on Jailor/Jailer.

[Trenix]

And the funny part is that my thread will most likely get locked even though I'm the one getting insulted and trolled.

[Trenix]

@Ash

What if the disguiser couldn't vote?

[Ash]

@Ash

What if the disguiser couldn't vote?

I give up debating.

[Trenix]

I give up debating.

It wasn't a debate. It was a group of fans defending the programmer and refusing to accept any suggestions. Surprised all this trolling, trash talking, racism is even allowed on these forums. Goes to show that the moderators don't give a crap and anyone new who shows up on the forums is unwelcome. Like really, what happened to these forums. I remember when we were able to give suggestions without dealing with all this bullshit and then having my own thread be closed from it. DR, unless you have a e-mail that I could send suggestions to, I'm out. Please improve this community, it's getting worse than League of Legends.

Oh and nice ninja delete on the n word you just threw around like it was nothing. Hope a moderator can still find it.

[Ishnal]

Ever think that maybe its just your suggestions are bad? Ever think the common denominator between the Mafia community and League of Legends community is yourself?

[Trenix]

Ever think that maybe its just your suggestions are bad? Ever think the common denominator between the Mafia community and League of Legends community is yourself?

Yes, but going on the forums just to tell people that their ideas are bad is definitely not contributing to being the bad part of the community. Also if you think the community on League of Legends is good than wow. Enough said. Think you all need to get off the computer and start trying to troll people in real life. That way, you'll see how fast your attitude will get straighten out.

[Ishnal]

Yes, but going on the forums just to tell people that their ideas are bad is definitely not contributing to being the bad part of the community. Also if you think the community on League of Legends is good than wow. Enough said. Think you all need to get off the computer and start trying to troll people in real life. That way, you'll see how fast your attitude will get straighten out.

You sir are the one who can't take criticism, I would hate to see your attitude in real life unless the computer makes you a new man.

[Ash]

It wasn't a debate. It was a group of fans defending the programmer and refusing to accept any suggestions. Surprised all this trolling, trash talking, racism is even allowed on these forums. Goes to show that the moderators don't give a crap and anyone new who shows up on the forums is unwelcome. Like really, what happened to these forums. I remember when we were able to give suggestions without dealing with all this bullshit and then having my own thread be closed from it. DR, unless you have a e-mail that I could send suggestions to, I'm out. Please improve this community, it's getting worse than League of Legends.

Oh and nice ninja delete on the n word you just threw around like it was nothing. Hope a moderator can still find it.

You made me laugh. I was not defending the programmer, I gave my honest thoughts. I am not a good debater, because my brain gets tired out of looking for good arguments to feed to trolls. I am not calling you a troll, but you just remind me of cygx. Cygx is a bad troll. Cygx = bad.

I ninja deleted the N-word because I do not like to give rude posts, as I was in a bad mood.
I don't really mind if you want me to say the word "Nigger" again, but there it is, just so you know I'm not a faggot that deleted the post just so I appear good.

Edit: Also my apologies if I was bad-mannered.

[Trenix]

You sir are the one who can't take criticism, I would hate to see your attitude in real life unless the computer makes you a new man.

Criticism requires some sort of reason for disagreement. So I see no criticism. If I had a reply saying, "look trenix, the disguiser would be overpowered because he will get so many people killed from confusion that it's better off letting him get only one kill than three or more". Instead I got, "you're a dumb troll, stupid newb, shut up". Then you guys look at me like I'm the bad guy when I try to have a smart conversation with logical reasoning.

[Ash]

Criticism requires some sort of reason for disagreement. So I see no criticism. If I had a reply saying, "look trenix, the disguiser would be overpowered because he will get so many people killed from confusion that it's better off letting him get only one kill than three or more".

I did that.

Instead I got, "you're a dumb troll, stupid newb, shut up".

Those people have nothing else to say, they just follow the wagon. I don't see this as much as trolling since it calls for debate, and not TROLLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLLOL.

[Dark.Revenant]

Some of your ideas are good as options for some interesting variants. But I can't add them. You probably don't have to ask why.

[Bazar]

It wasn't a debate. It was a group of fans defending the programmer and refusing to accept any suggestions.

The fact that you can't even see it was a debate goes to show how biased you are.

But allow me to chime in on this discussion of yours.

Regarding the disgusier:
The disgusier is powerful, but limited. Another kill, then he becomes useless. Unlike an consort, consig, blackmailer, or janitor, his power is once only, and results vary.

The sooner he uses his power, the sooner maifa will get a kill. But conversly the less he'll know about the roll he takes.

I've seen disgusiers that kill night 1. And achieving little of value
I've seen disgusiers hold out to night 4 and get lynched as a result, acheving nothing of value.
Sometimes they pull of epic feats of confusion, but that usally requires luck, skill, and misdirection.

As far as overpowered rolls go, i'd rate it as a close 3rd in maifa. With the GF and consig vastly more dangerious.


Regarding cultists:
By converting cultists back into town, what would you acheive?
The born-again townies would have a huge lead over maifa in unity, because they would work together knowing ex-cultists were townies.

Trolls would point out who the cultist was just to break/rig the system

Even if the cultists couldn't trust who was town, the time the cult leader dies, a lot of detection time could of been lost.

Any game with a cultist infestation normally becomes cult vs maifa with town caught in the cross-fire.
To allow 1 kill to shatter that, i can't even comprehend.

Regarding Masons:
I have no idea what you are talking about. Sounds like you are complaining about masons, but then you're describing how masons work when the "becomes mason leader" option is enabled.

Regarding Survivor:
Just because you don't like survivor, doesn't mean it needs to be changed.
Playing survivor is one of my favourite rolls, even pretending to be a survivor is nice.

The best vest for a survivor is that its too much hassle for mafia to attack them, little no reason for town to lynch them.

Your change would make the survivor a hostile target to town. They would always use the sheriff, mayor, or town roll as a human shield rather then risk using a maifa/sk.

Also what does it achieve this change. It does nothing to make the survivor more fun. End of the day hes still a loner, only a dangerious one. It also makes it harder for the survivor to win, because town will be far more inclined to kill them, and maifa/sk will be more inclined to test, since they wouldn't waste a shot if its true.

Regarding Executioner:

You talk about how an executioner shouhld have another way to win, yet berate how they become a jester if they fail.
An executioner has 2 chances to win, just because his roll changes doesn't change that fact.

Your suggestion to have exec's lynch maifa apon failure doesn't even make sense to me. They become aligned with town apon failure? Boring.

Regarding Vigilante

And that achives what in gameplay? I don't really give a damn about lore.
From a lore perspective its pretty clear maifa and the vet go at different hours. You think mafia are going to go around for a cup of tea with their victim, then while they were having buttered scones and tea the vigi bumps in towing a shotgun, and the maifa takes them both out?

In fact from hwo the vigi plays, its pretty clear the vigi is just a drive by shooter of some sort. He never checks what he hits, simply fires some rounds and moves on. He doesn't know what happened till the morning if a body does or doesn't show up.

Gameplay wise, at least ash points out it'd make Vigi's think twice before shooting. But i doubt it'd stop stupid people from shooting, and smart people are already selective with their kills.

[Capitalier]

All you're doing is porting EpicMafia roles over.

[Bluejay]

Don't your ideas for Mason/Mason Leader already happen? The Mason Leader is there to distinguish himself from the other ones, since he's the guy who can recruit and all. Otherwise it would be confusing to figure out which Mason can do what.

Allowing the Survivor to use other people as human shields will most likely result in town deaths, and we have enough neutral roles that detract from the town anyway. Yes, it's different from all of the other roles in that the Survivor doesn't do much in terms of discussion and mostly sits back and lets everyone else do their thing, but there is still decision and thinking involved, as you can't just use the bulletproof vest every night. Being able to survive attacks in the first place is rather powerful, I'd say.

Regarding the Disguiser: plenty of Disguisers I've seen are quiet people who attack other quiet people. Should this be the case, finding one is going to be pretty difficult. Going with your idea, should a Disguiser perform actions multiple times, it'll just confuse people more than helping the town find him.

[Trenix]

Don't your ideas for Mason/Mason Leader already happen? The Mason Leader is there to distinguish himself from the other ones, since he's the guy who can recruit and all. Otherwise it would be confusing to figure out which Mason can do what.

I can say the same about the Cultist. Hard to distinguish who's the leader. I guess you can leave the Mason Leader, but the option of adding Masons to a rolelist shouldn't be possible. Masons should always be recruited, because that's what organizations are about. I was hoping that maybe that would allow DR to have room for a different role, rather than having two roles that are very identical.

Allowing the Survivor to use other people as human shields will most likely result in town deaths, and we have enough neutral roles that detract from the town anyway. Yes, it's different from all of the other roles in that the Survivor doesn't do much in terms of discussion and mostly sits back and lets everyone else do their thing, but there is still decision and thinking involved, as you can't just use the bulletproof vest every night. Being able to survive attacks in the first place is rather powerful, I'd say.

But then there is the possibility that the survivor would get a mafia killed. Also, I'm sure eventually the mafia will find out that they no longer want to kill the survivor because now they have the possibility of killing themselves and they're not able to strategically select their targets. The idea of this ability will be to stop players from attacking you, it'll be much more effective in doing so than a bullet proof vest. The bullet proof vest isn't so effective, because the mafia might believe that the doctor saved you that night and roleblockers could also accuse innocent players. Besides, the human shield will also be limited. The survivor is a quiet role currently, he needs to speak up in this discussion based game.

Regarding the Disguiser: plenty of Disguisers I've seen are quiet people who attack other quiet people. Should this be the case, finding one is going to be pretty difficult. Going with your idea, should a Disguiser perform actions multiple times, it'll just confuse people more than helping the town find him.

If the disguiser attacks quiet people and then doesn't speak, he's just acting like a BMer. But yet, people are not complaining about a blackmailer. So I don't see how this would make a disguiser overpowered.


By the way I added janitor to the list.

[Bluejay]

You're right about the Cultist; I forgot about that since I haven't been one in forever. Also I don't think the two things I said about the Disguiser had anything to do with each other. Sorry if I made it seem that way. My point was that not all Disguisers are people who talk all the time.

Most the survivors I've seen who get attacked either die or survive and immediately call themselves out as being the survivor. Or do that day 1 and try to stay quiet through the rest of the game (participating in discussion, from my own experience, gets the Mafia/SK/whatever to target you more often, lessening your survival chances). Also, with the current settings, the Mafia should be able to recognize that the target had an ability that allowed the Survivor to stay alive, not because the doctor healed him (the killer gets a message that says "Your target survived your attack! Tonight, he has immunity to conventional attacks" if the target has an innate or activated ability to not die at night). Mafia who attack a Survivor using a vest will be pretty confident their target is not town, since Citizens are usually excluded and the chances of attacking a jailed person is low, so they are probably not going to attack him again on the chance the target was an SK or something.

[Trenix]

Mafia who attack a Survivor using a vest will be pretty confident their target is not town, since Citizens are usually excluded and the chances of attacking a jailed person is low, so they are probably not going to attack him again on the chance the target was an SK or something.

SK are usually immune to attacks, so it'll say he's immune rather than he survived an attack. Citizens are also good to have as a cover up for mafia. This is why I keep them with a Mason Leader, so they wont be so useless. Same goes for just having regular masons. Besides, survivors usually are on the town's side to begin with. I've only been in one game where the mafia sided with the neutrals because they quickly pmed them. Human shield will be much easier finding out the survivor than the bullet proof vest.

[Lysergic]

Disguiser

He should not be able to kill people. It's sort of unfair that mafia can kill two people at one night, or possibly even more depending on how many disguisers the mafia has. Instead, he should be like the janitor. Selecting a person who will die that following night will make you be disguised as him. In addition, he should be able to disguise multiple times because of this. This would make it more balanced.

I think it would be more unbalanced to have the Disguiser be able to switch identities multiple times. Mafia gets two kills the way it is... for a single night. They have to carefully determine where this will be the most effective, and if the Disguiser gets found out, he can be roleblocked to prevent switching. I like the way the Disguiser currently works, and disagree that it is unbalanced to have Mafia get two kills during a single night. I mean, the current Forum Mafia game has a ludicrous amount of kills per night (2 and possibly more depending on Sapper action for Mafia, 1 for the Cult, 1 from the SK, etc.), and it seems to be decently balanced so far.

Janitor

The janitor should know the role of the players he sanitizes rather than their last will because sometimes hosts will decide not to enable last wills. In those situations, a janitor will be completely useless.

I really like this idea. I've always thought it kind of sucked that Janitor didn't find out the roles of those he cleaned up.

In addition, the janitor is an ineffective role currently, because it's pretty difficult finding out the role that he sanitized. Lets face it, majority of players troll their last wills. If this was added more roles will become useful. For example, the Coroner, who would always find the janitor's bluffs. The spy would also be more useful, because the janitor will have to tell the mafia what roles he sanitized.

Good reasoning for the Janitor suggestion. Again, really like this improvement - small change with big impact on gameplay.

Cultist

Killing the main cultist should make converted players go back to their original roles. Otherwise, cultists are pretty overpowered if you ask me.

Eh; I'm torn on this one. I remember the original idea was to have a Cult Leader role. The way this suggestion works, you would have to split Cultist into two separate roles - the "original" or leader and the converted Cultists. Because of the script limit issues, this currently can't be done. As for whether or not Cultist is overpowered, I'm also not sure on that one. Cult has a lot of enemies currently. Most setups I play that include Cult also include Sheriffs who can detect Cultists AND Masons who can kill them at night (also, Mafia and SK who want to keep Cult from gaining a majority late-game). Cult is pretty much everyones enemy - nerfing them could make them far too weak. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try, since there's no way of knowing until we do. Still, I'm not entirely sure if I agree that Cult is overpowered in the current game.

Mason/Mason Leader

These role ideas are broken. It's unnecessary to have two different roles for the same organization. That's like us having a cultist and a cultist leader in a game, which is highly unnecessary.

Your earlier suggestion was just that, though - to distinguish between converted Cultists and the "leader" Cultist. It's the same for Mason / Mason Leader.

In my opinion, you should only have one mason in a game, not multiple masons or a mason leader. That mason should technically be the mason leader, carrying all his abilities. He should then have to recruit citizens into his organization. This could be the key to making citizens actually useful for once. Recruited masons will not be able to recruit masons, only the main mason can recruit.

So... you should have a "leader" type role that can recruit people, and then have the normal Masons who can't... so... Mason Leader and Masons? Your suggestion is to have a single role, but ALSO to have it do different things depending on whether or not the role is converted. Unfortunately, this requires two separate roles.

Also, in games without Cult and Citizens, it's still nice to get two Masons. They are very powerful late-game due to their unified voting power and "confirmed town" status. In my mind, Mason Leader and Masons are for entirely separate setups. Given that Citizens are disabled 9 times out of 10, having Masons still included is a nice option. Since your suggestion calls for having two separate roles anyway, I think we should keep it the way it is.

In addition, if the mason leader attempts to recruit a mafia member or a neutral killing role, it will reveal his name as well as all of the masons to the mafia member or neutral killing role. If the mason leader dies, the mason organization does not get disbanded.

It already works this way, except that it only reveals the person who visited the Mafia member / killing role. I prefer that to the Mafia getting a list of EVERYONE in the Masons - it seems like an unnecessarily large nerf to how the Masons function (what other role can accidentally reveal MULTIPLE town roles to the Mafia?).

Survivor

Lets be honest, the bullet proof vest is a very lame and boring ability. Instead, a survivor should have a different ability called, "Human Shield". If the survivor gets attacked and he used his ability on someone, that player will die instead of him. This would give this role a bigger power and would make it less boring. This ability will also be limited and selecting the player who's killing you as a human shield will get yourself killed.

I personally don't like this suggestion. I think Survivors add an important balancing factor to the game, even if they don't have an "exciting" night action. They are completely neutral, and can side with WHOEVER they want, be it Mafia, SK, Arsonist, or Town. I like that. I enjoy playing as Survivor. This suggestion basically makes him a nerfed Bus Driver and completely changes the point of having a Survivor in the game.

Executioner

It's rather lame that if you fail your goal, you lose or you become a jester. This just shows that the role is incomplete, especially since it requires the executioner to be turned into another role in order for this role to be useful. So instead of succumbing to that, why not give the executioner two goals instead of one? The executioner should win if he kills a target that is town, or if he lynches all the mafia. That way if he fails his goal, he could still complete the other one.

I agree with having a second goal for the Executioner. However, it should not be lynching the Mafia. Executioner is not a town role. This turns him into a VERY pro-town neutral if he fails in his first objective. I agree that he should have a second goal, but it should not side him with the town. He could even receive a second name of someone to get lynched - that seems like a better compromise than essentially promoting him to a Citizen.

Vigilante

If the vigilante goes to visit the same person as the mafia, the vigilante should die.

I like this idea.

[Bluejay]

SK are usually immune to attacks, so it'll say he's immune rather than he survived an attack. Citizens are also good to have as a cover up for mafia. This is why I keep them with a Mason Leader, so they wont be so useless. Same goes for just having regular masons. Besides, survivors usually are on the town's side to begin with. I've only been in one game where the mafia sided with the neutrals because they quickly pmed them. Human shield will be much easier finding out the survivor than the bullet proof vest.

Really? I swear I get the same message when playing as GF and attacking SK/Arsonist and a Survivor. Maybe I'm just dumb and can't remember.

[Dark.Revenant]

You realize that even if I do your Mason suggestion, it doesn't save any space because all I'd be doing is hiding the Mason role from the setup list. Recruited Masons would still just be the same role; naming conventions are just about the only things that change.

Besides, the game isn't design to have roles removed, only added.

[Shparky]

Disguiser

He should not be able to kill people. It's sort of unfair that mafia can kill two people at one night, or possibly even more depending on how many disguisers the mafia has. Instead, he should be like the janitor. Selecting a person who will die that following night will make you be disguised as him. In addition, he should be able to disguise multiple times because of this. This would make it more balanced.

That would defeat the purpose of being a Disguiser. How are you really going to disguise if the other person is still alive? The rule of a disguiser is that once you kill, you can't do anything.

Janitor

The janitor should know the role of the players he sanitizes rather than their last will because sometimes hosts will decide not to enable last wills. In those situations, a janitor will be completely useless. In addition, the janitor is an ineffective role currently, because it's pretty difficult finding out the role that he sanitized. Lets face it, majority of players troll their last wills. If this was added more roles will become useful. For example, the Coroner, who would always find the janitor's bluffs. The spy would also be more useful, because the janitor will have to tell the mafia what roles he sanitized.

Janitors are still useful, if last wills are disabled. They can still sanitize people that will create confusion - that's the main point.

Cultist

Killing the main cultist should make converted players go back to their original roles. Otherwise, cultists are pretty overpowered if you ask me.

Once converted, you can't go back. The goal of a Cult is to get large, and lynch the last Mafia & Townies whenever possible. To be honest, Cult may seem OP, but it's actually amazingly limited by how many people as the game goes on. The less people there are, the less powerful a Cult will be.

Mason/Mason Leader

These role ideas are broken. It's unnecessary to have two different roles for the same organization. That's like us having a cultist and a cultist leader in a game, which is highly unnecessary. In my opinion, you should only have one mason in a game, not multiple masons or a mason leader. That mason should technically be the mason leader, carrying all his abilities. He should then have to recruit citizens into his organization. This could be the key to making citizens actually useful for once. Recruited masons will not be able to recruit masons, only the main mason can recruit.

In addition, if the mason leader attempts to recruit a mafia member or a neutral killing role, it will reveal his name as well as all of the masons to the mafia member or neutral killing role. If the mason leader dies, the mason organization does not get disbanded.

What you said is user error. In actual terms, Masons and mason leaders are the most powerful, because they already know each other, and gets a chat ability. Imagine a game with 10 masons and 3 mafia. Now, who will win?

Also, Masons are designed to counter Cultists, which is the point. Having ONE mason defeats the purpose of being masons; they are supposed to work together and determine who's mafia.

Survivor

Lets be honest, the bullet proof vest is a very lame and boring ability. Instead, a survivor should have a different ability called, "Human Shield". If the survivor gets attacked and he used his ability on someone, that player will die instead of him. This would give this role a bigger power and would make it less boring. This ability will also be limited and selecting the player who's killing you as a human shield will get yourself killed.

No. Survivors can have up to 4 bullet proof vests, which literally protects him the whole game if done correctly. Survivors don't really need any additional abilities since they win with any roles regardless, and only has to work with majority in order to win.

Executioner

It's rather lame that if you fail your goal, you lose or you become a jester. This just shows that the role is incomplete, especially since it requires the executioner to be turned into another role in order for this role to be useful. So instead of succumbing to that, why not give the executioner two goals instead of one? The executioner should win if he kills a target that is town, or if he lynches all the mafia. That way if he fails his goal, he could still complete the other one.

If you knew what an Executioner meant, you'd understood.

Vigilante

If the vigilante goes to visit the same person as the mafia, the vigilante should die.

Why?