S-FM Condorcet Lynching

[Voss]

S-FM Condorcet Lynch Cop9er

Goon
Goon
Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Spoiler : Town Roles :

Citizen


Sheriff

Spoiler : Mafia Roles :

Mafioso

Order of Operations

2) Sheriff investigations
3) Mafia Kill

Win Conditions
Town: Eliminate the Mafia.
Mafia: Eliminate the Town such that living Mafia is at least equal to the living Town members.

Mechanics
-Condorcet Lynch. Detailed below
-If a majority vote to 'Lock in Votes' nighttime will come sooner. (This is to potentially help streamline the game).
-Days end after 48 hours. Nights are 24 hours + the remaining end day time, if ended shorter
-Game starts on Day 1
-Last Wills are not Allowed.
-Death Notes are not Allowed.
-Mafia have a factional night chat.
-Sheriff will know the identity of 1 random town member before Day 1 starts.
-Mafia must kill, or the kill will be randomed.
-No Suicide.
-Citizens do not win ties

Condorcet Lynch
-Everyone must submit a vote by the end of the day.
-To submit your vote for the days lynch:
--Rank the people you want lynched from 'scummiest' to 'towniest'.
--The names need to be on a new line, or comma separated
--Wrap it in a spoiler with the name being 'cvote' to not clog up the game thread.
--Post in Thread
-Every 6-8 hours, I will recap the scumlists of everyone, as well as who would be lynched if day ended at that point.
-Although you don't need to know how the calculation works to play, an explanation is listed here for transparency : https://plus.maths.org/content/which-voting-system-best
-To avoid being lynched, stay off of the high part of other player's scum lists.
-To lynch someone you deem scummy, put them high on your scum list.
-To avoid lynching someone you deem towny, don't include them, or better yet, put them at the bottom of your list.

Example

Spoiler : cvote :

Distorted
Dutes
Lenneth
Ratatoskr
Blinkskater
Efekannn02
naz
rumox
Unknown1234
Marshmallow Marshall

Rules of Conduct
1. Forum Mafia Rules
2. Inactive players will be replaced by another player, if necessary, they will be modkilled.
3. To ask the Host a question, you must highlight the question in green, and mention the host @Voss . You may also pm me on Discord.
4. Minimum of 5 posts per game day.
5. English shall be the only language used.
6. Do not post links to other websites.
7. Pictures are allowed in moderation.
8. Videos are not allowed.
9. Directly quoting any feedback or PM by me is forbidden.
10. Have Fun.

Credits to @SuperJack for the formatting and content of this post.

[rumox]

I'd sign up for it

[Ganelon]

Very interesting idea, I'd sign up for a test run. I feel like Town would be advantaged by this, as it would offer more information than just a regular Lynch.

[Voss]

Not quite. Here's the example in the link

Votes Preferences
4 ABC
6 BAC
6 CAB
2 CBA
1 ACB
1 BCA

By analysing all the profiles, pitting each candidate against the other two, the clerk found that the electorate of Chuddlehampton preferred A to B (11 votes have preference AB and only 9 have preference BA), A to C (again by 11 votes to 9), and B to C (again 11 to 9).

As the electorate prefers A to both B and C, A is deemed the winner.

[Voss]

How would this lynch decision is made?

give me an example with each person giving a list of who they think is most suspicious to least, and i'll walk you through the end.

[Voss]

"If everyone's top1 vote didn't reach 51% then the one with LEAST votes gets removed from the vote"

I think you've described the alternative vote, which is the second example. The condorcet vote is the one below that.

[OzyWho]

give me an example with each person giving a list of who they think is most suspicious to least, and i'll walk you through the end.

I tried making something as hard as I could:

---

Player A	Player B	Player C	Player D	Player E	Player F	Player G
VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES
B	A	B	A	F	C	F
F	F	A	B	B	E	A
G	E	D	C	G	D	E
E	G	G	E	C	A	C
C	D	E	F	A	G	B
D	C	F	G	D	B	D

[OzyWho]

I tried making something as hard as I could:

---

Player A	Player B	Player C	Player D	Player E	Player F	Player G
VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES
B	A	B	A	F	C	F
F	F	A	B	B	E	A
G	E	D	C	G	D	E
E	G	G	E	C	A	C
C	D	E	F	A	G	B
D	C	F	G	D	B	D

@Voss , i did the preference counting:

A>B	3		B>A	2
A>C	3		C>A	2
A>D	4		D>A	1
A>E	4		E>A	1
A>F	3		F>A	2
A>G	4		G>A	1
B>C	3		C>B	2
B>D	4		D>B	1
B>E	3		E>B	2
B>F	3		F>B	2
B>G	4		G>B	1
C>D	4		D>C	1
C>E	2		E>C	3
C>F	1		F>C	4
C>G	2		G>C	3
D>E	1		E>D	4
D>F	1		F>D	4
D>G	2		G>D	3
E>F	2		F>E	3
E>G	3		G>E	2
F>G	4		G>F	1

A>	24
B>	19
C>	12
D>	7
E>	15
F>	19
G>	11

How is the lynch target decided now?
It is A, right?

---

Also, I deleted my previous... questions. I felt like they had nothing to do in this thread since I asked question without even reading the idea first. I think you should delete your responses too, to keep this thread clean.

[Voss]

You're right that A is the lynch target, but I'm not sure if the tallies are just a coincidence of the right answer.

A would be the most suspicious person because the majority want to lynch A over anyone else.
B would be the next most suspicious because, after A is removed, everyone wants to lynch B over everyone else.
F, E, G, C, D follow.

[Voss]

cool color coding.

[OzyWho]

You're right that A is the lynch target, but I'm not sure if the tallies are just a coincidence of the right answer.

Sorry, I am not very familiar with that word. What do you mean by "tallies"?

---

A would be the most suspicious person because the majority want to lynch A over anyone else.
B would be the next most suspicious because, after A is removed, everyone wants to lynch B over everyone else.
F, E, G, C, D follow.

What makes B more suspicious (or higher priority as I would say) than F?

---

cool color coding.

Thx. It was color fader + text replacement + bbcode table generator + the fact that I replaced upper case letters while color fader made color codes in lower cases. Took few minutes but looks like a lot of work.
Gotta say though, that text replacement - it really is useful again and again and again. I like it.

[Voss]

Sorry, I am not very familiar with that word. What do you mean by "tallies"?

---

What makes B more suspicious (or higher priority as I would say) than F?

You've added up the totals in a table. That's what I mean by tallies.

B is more suspicious than F because people would rather lynch B than F, 3 to 2.

B is the second most suspicious because everyone would rather lynch B than C, D, E, F, and G. Just not A. people would rather lynch A over B.

[OzyWho]

Hmm, alright. Then I don't understand the system.

Good luck explaining it to the rest.

[Voss]

You're question was, why is B a higher priority than F?

3 people want to lynch B, 2 people want to lynch F. If the vote/election was between B and F, you know how everyone would vote. More people want to see B dead over F.
Does that make sense?

[OzyWho]

You're question was, why is B a higher priority than F?

3 people want to lynch B, 2 people want to lynch F. If the vote/election was between B and F, you know how everyone would vote. More people want to see B dead over F.
Does that make sense?

Ohh, I get it now. It's how ties are decided I guess. Since both had a "score" of 19 then you look at between them both:
B>F 3
F>B 2

Or that 19 was irrelevant?

[SuperJack]

Sounds great! Just make an easy to understand setup post, and we can go from there ^^

[Voss]

Ohh, I get it now. It's how ties are decided I guess. Since both had a "score" of 19 then you look at between them both:
B>F 3
F>B 2

Or that 19 was irrelevant?

the 19 probably correlates, but doesn't directly affect the decision.

and okay SJ, I'll do it when I get some more time on my plate.

[OzyWho]

I'm on phone so I can't make a quick example. I wanted to ask, how would tiebreak work in this scenario:
8 players
4 players top vote is A, 4 players top vote is B.
3 players second top vote is A, 3 players second top vote is B, +whatever A and B voted themselves as their second top.

[Arsonist]

Sorry, I am not very familiar with that word. What do you mean by "tallies"?

---

What makes B more suspicious (or higher priority as I would say) than F?

---

Thx. It was color fader + text replacement + bbcode table generator + the fact that I replaced upper case letters while color fader made color codes in lower cases. Took few minutes but looks like a lot of work.
Gotta say though, that text replacement - it really is useful again and again and again. I like it.

That's what color fader i use!
BBCode tables i create by myself.

[OzyWho]

That's what color fader i use!
BBCode tables i create by myself.

Explain to me why my tables borders have black color while it's white for others!

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Lol I love the concept but good luck getting enough players that will understand how to vote....

[OzyWho]

Lol I love the concept but good luck getting enough players that will understand how to vote....

What's hard PMing own scumread with all players included in order from most scummy to most townie?

[OzyWho]

I'm on phone so I can't make a quick example. I wanted to ask, how would tiebreak work in this scenario:
8 players
4 players top vote is A, 4 players top vote is B.
3 players second top vote is A, 3 players second top vote is B, +whatever A and B voted themselves as their second top.

A smaller one:

Player A	Player B	Player C	Player D
VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES
B	A	B	A
C	D	A	B
D	C	D	C

---

This is a tie and no Lynch, right?

[Voss]

Lol I love the concept but good luck getting enough players that will understand how to vote....

What's hard PMing own scumread with all players included in order from most scummy to most townie?

That's all the players have to do. Give an honest list of who they want lynched most, to who they want lynched least. I'll handle the "hard" part.

[Voss]

Lol I love the concept but good luck getting enough players that will understand how to vote....

A smaller one:

Player A	Player B	Player C	Player D
VOTES	VOTES	VOTES	VOTES
B	A	B	A
C	D	A	B
D	C	D	C

---

This is a tie and no Lynch, right?

yes exactly. And even if you looked just at the first preferences, it's a tie. This scenario is unlikely to happen, (although it's more likely to happen when there are even number of players left), and I'll probably run a setup guaranteeing that there are odd number of players during the day.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

yes exactly. And even if you looked just at the first preferences, it's a tie. This scenario is unlikely to happen, (although it's more likely to happen when there are even number of players left), and I'll probably run a setup guaranteeing that there are odd number of players during the day.

Oh, so the Condorcet paradox is simply going to end in a no lynch situation?

[Voss]

Lol I love the concept but good luck getting enough players that will understand how to vote....

I'm on phone so I can't make a quick example. I wanted to ask, how would tiebreak work in this scenario:
8 players
4 players top vote is A, 4 players top vote is B.
3 players second top vote is A, 3 players second top vote is B, +whatever A and B voted themselves as their second top.

This example's too generic, but I think the other one I commented on makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to ask questions. It's really flushing out how I'm going to explain it.

[Voss]

Oh, so the Condorcet paradox is simply going to end in a no lynch situation?

I think in the game I'm going to run, it won't be possible to have no clear winner. But yeah, they'll end in a no lynch.

[OzyWho]

I'll probably run a setup guaranteeing that there are odd number of players during the day.

That's a mandatory Lynch + mandatory kill setup, right?

[Voss]

That's a mandatory Lynch + mandatory kill setup, right?

That's correct.

[Distorted]

! sounds fun im in

[Voss]

@SuperJack , for review.

I also want to point out the general strategy with the Cop n0 peek, but unsure if that's in bad taste.

[OzyWho]

This timing is dirty.

---

Goon
Goon
Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Mechanics
-Sheriff will know the identity of 1 random town member before Day 1 starts.

When I read the role list, I was like: "Why is there a sheriff? Isn't that imbalanced?".
But then I read that additional game Mechanic.
I am sorry for this generic(is that the right word?) question, I feel like I should ask more specific questions, if I have any.
But:

Is this balanced?

[OzyWho]

Condorcet Lynch
-Although you don't need to know how the calculation works to play

I do not think that future hosts can host this if they wanted to. At least I know I wouldn't feel comfortable.

---

What happens if a player doesn't add everyone in his list and the Day has ended? Would the game stop until he does?

[Voss]

This timing is dirty.

---

When I read the role list, I was like: "Why is there a sheriff? Isn't that imbalanced?".
But then I read that additional game Mechanic.
I am sorry for this generic(is that the right word?) question, I feel like I should ask more specific questions, if I have any.
But:

Is this balanced?

yes. I've played this setup very many times on another forum. It's called cop 9. Why don't you think it's balanced?

I do not think that future hosts can host this if they wanted to. At least I know I wouldn't feel comfortable.

If you're going to quote, quote the entire line. Are you uncomfortable in the fact that I'm not going in detail about how the calculation works? Or just the fact that I said "you don't need to know."

In any case, I'm going to edit in just what players should keep in mind. Which is, stay off the top of people's scum lists, or you're likely to get lynched.

What happens if a player doesn't add everyone in his list and the Day has ended? Would the game stop until he does?

It's an invalid vote if one doesn't include everyone. If the player in question doesn't submit any votes on a given day, I'll probably try to replace them out for being difficult. But I'm naive enough as a host to believe that I won't need to do this.

[OzyWho]

yes. I've played this setup very many times on another forum. It's called cop 9. Why don't you think it's balanced?

I kinda changed my mind. :P
It's just that I remembered playing basic Citizens vs Goons setups, and with more scum favored in terms of role ratio. So seeing anything additional gave me impression of imbalance.
However - I think in those setups, the mafia didn't have Factional night kill? So that balances it out, I guess.

---

If you're going to quote, quote the entire line. Are you uncomfortable in the fact that I'm not going in detail about how the calculation works? Or just the fact that I said "you don't need to know."

I quoted only the relevant part of my concern. My concern being: I fear that other people would have difficulty hosting this setup.
I am not trying to be a dick here and I am not asking you to copy paste how calculations work. I think I was indirectly asking:

Could you add "Hosting Instructions"? Or you think they would be redundant/unnecessary?

So I guess the answer the your question is: the "you don't need to know." part.

---

It's an invalid vote if one doesn't include everyone. If the player in question doesn't submit any votes on a given day, I'll probably try to replace them out for being difficult. But I'm naive enough as a host to believe that I won't need to do this.

Ohh. I see.
I think I would make a smaller setup, so the Host can cherry pick the most active players from the signups, just so less likely to encounter complications. But that's just me.

[Voss]

I came off a little strong in my last post. I realize you're not actually trying to attack me, and have been helping me refine the experiment i want to host. so I really do appreciate that!


I'd be willing to post hosting instructions after the game. I kinda want to see how it works out first though, and hope the players can bare with me while I fine tune things.

[OzyWho]

I'd be willing to post hosting instructions after the game. I kinda want to see how it works out first though, and hope the players can bare with me while I fine tune things.

That sounds interesting!

[OzyWho]

@SuperJack
I know you don't have almost any free time, but I was just thinking that if you approved this setup then @Voss could open his game and I could cancel mine. (At this rate, I predict 20 days before I would have enough signups for mine)
I do think that this smaller setup could get full signups faster than the 13 player one. And this one also seems more fun!

( Either way. May 2018 is without a Forum Mafia game except the Assasin one, which lasted ~2 days. )

[OzyWho]

How to vote to 'Lock in Votes'?

[Voss]

This timing is dirty.

---

When I read the role list, I was like: "Why is there a sheriff? Isn't that imbalanced?".
But then I read that additional game Mechanic.
I am sorry for this generic(is that the right word?) question, I feel like I should ask more specific questions, if I have any.
But:

Is this balanced?

How to vote to 'Lock in Votes'?

Does anyone know if I can manually set a thread's minimum vote lynch to something other than how many players are playing?

Ideally, how I want this to work, is everyone does a 'skip day', thread will lock, and I'll figure out who was lynched.

[OzyWho]

Does anyone know if I can manually set a thread's minimum vote lynch to something other than how many players are playing?

Ideally, how I want this to work, is everyone does a 'skip day', thread will lock, and I'll figure out who was lynched.

Ohh, so vote to lock in Votes' by just the usual

-vote skip

Ok ok

I think it is possible to change required vote count with [L] tag:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/32510-RLVG-s-Guide-to-Hosting
(6. Handling game thread)

[Voss]

I've updated a couple of the requirements for the voting mechanic.

[OzyWho]

Condorcet Lynch
-To lynch someone you deem scummy, put them high on your scum list.
-To avoid lynching someone you deem towny, don't include them, or better yet, put them at the bottom of your list.

Is it ok if everyone's lists consist of 1-3 players only on Day1?

---

A	B	C
VOTES	VOTES	VOTES
B	C	A
C	A	B

In this scenario - it's RNG, right?
(I think this is a likely scenario to happen if it get's to Day4.)

---

[Voss]

This timing is dirty.

---

When I read the role list, I was like: "Why is there a sheriff? Isn't that imbalanced?".
But then I read that additional game Mechanic.
I am sorry for this generic(is that the right word?) question, I feel like I should ask more specific questions, if I have any.
But:

Is this balanced?

Is it ok if everyone's lists consist of 1-3 players only on Day1?

---

A	B	C
VOTES	VOTES	VOTES
B	C	A
C	A	B

In this scenario - it's RNG, right?
(I think this is a likely scenario to happen if it get's to Day4.)

---

in this d4 scenario, if you were doing normal majority lynch, it'd still be undeterminate. So if players want to RNG the lynch, because it's mandatory, I can't help that. And skip day isn't the path to victory for town.

If this sounds harsh, I'm actually laughing while i'm typing it.

[Voss]

oh, missed the other question.

You could just do 1-3 players, but if you do all 9, you kind of protect your town reads from the lynch.

I've finished a tool that'll help visualize the vote standing, as well as an easy way to help with the more complicated vote text.

[Voss]

https://narrator.systeminplace.net/condorcet.html

as a test, anyone on the signup list can vote in the following thread, and the condorcet ranking page will get updated.

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...-1511492048953

[OzyWho]

Does people putting or not putting their own name in their own "cvote" list influence anything? (vote outcome wise)

[Voss]

This timing is dirty.

---

When I read the role list, I was like: "Why is there a sheriff? Isn't that imbalanced?".
But then I read that additional game Mechanic.
I am sorry for this generic(is that the right word?) question, I feel like I should ask more specific questions, if I have any.
But:

Is this balanced?

Does people putting or not putting their own name in their own "cvote" list influence anything? (vote outcome wise)

99% sure the answer is no. Submitting 8/9 votes and not including yourself is the same as including 9/9 votes and putting yourself at the bottom. But to be safe, you should always put yourself at the bottom since that behavior is defined.

[Ganelon]

I imagine it works something like this:

Elector 1: A, B, C, D

Elector 2: A, B, D, C

Elector 3: C, D, A, B

Elector 4: B, D, A, C

I think use of a table to indicate voting preferences illustrates the algorithm better:

Elector ID	Elector A	Elector B	Elector C	Elector D
Elector A	0	3	3	2
Elector B	1	0	3	3
Elector C	1	1	0	2
Elector D	2	1	2	0

This would likely result in A winning the election, correct? A is preferred to B, C by the majority, and is tied with D, who whoever is also tied with C and but viewed negatively by comparison to B.
So something like
A>B>D>C?

Edit: Ah. I think I understand this now. Gimme a second.