S-FM 221: Death Note

[BananaCucho]

your forget that in trading off your immunity for the double kill, you have to forgo the nk that night

Incorrect. You can kill and make the trade the same night. You can't kill and convert though. I had clarified this with Sino

[BananaCucho]

Yes, 99% of the time he only speaks negatively, quite a downer.

I mean, I had fun this game, I don't really care how anyone played because this was enjoyable.

Agreed I enjoyed my time in the game. Converting you was not the best move but I went for fun factor vs best strategy.

Converting Mesk after the obvious day 1 cit claim would be the optimal conversion choice (and what I initially considered) until MZ outted as L

[DarknessB]

Agreed I enjoyed my time in the game. Converting you was not the best move but I went for fun factor vs best strategy.

Converting Mesk after the obvious day 1 cit claim would be the optimal conversion choice (and what I initially considered) until MZ outted as L

You should have tried to convert MZ -- ultimate test of WIFOM there.

[SilverWolf]

You should have tried to convert MZ -- ultimate test of WIFOM there.

Game would of ended instantly in a town win.

[DarknessB]

Game would of ended instantly in a town win.

I know -- would have been pretty entertaining, right?

If the actual L was some AFKer though and just didn't CC MZ, would have made for a bonkers mid-game, lol. And before you say that could never happen, RLVG never CCed FB's fake claim in Charmander's Revenge.

[MattZed]

It's a chicken-egg problem though -- one of the main reasons I'm not actively playing games these days is because the quality of play has diminished so much over the past couple of years.

I have no idea what you're talking about. You havent even been on the site for years. Some of our best runs were early and late 2016, only dying down for Christmas and FM signs.

When I joined the site, there was a problem with players not playing games they signed up for, or barely meeting minimum post requirements. This has not been an issue for a long time, and we're much better to be past it.

Yes, there was a lot of trolling this game, and a lot of ignoring basic FM protocols like explaining votes. I would strongly encourage this to stop. However, people were still playing off of who they thought was scum or who was safe to follow, and this got Crypt lynched even if it wasn't the beautiful analytic takedown I was hoping for.

[DarknessB]

I have no idea what you're talking about. You havent even been on the site for years. Some of our best runs were early and late 2016, only dying down for Christmas and FM signs.

When I joined the site, there was a problem with players not playing games they signed up for, or barely meeting minimum post requirements. This has not been an issue for a long time, and we're much better to be past it.

Yes, there was a lot of trolling this game, and a lot of ignoring basic FM protocols like explaining votes. I would strongly encourage this to stop. However, people were still playing off of who they thought was scum or who was safe to follow, and this got Crypt lynched even if it wasn't the beautiful analytic takedown I was hoping for.

Your first S-FM was something like 3-4 games before mine in 2015 which is years ago, lol. Also, I'm not sure I'd characterize late 2016 as being one of our best runs given the infamous Mafia Wars 3.0 freakout which occurred, Empire with all the hosting mistakes / issues, Lazy with the turbo lynches / rage, and now this game. I'd say that's a number of problematic games in a relatively short period. You yourself lamented how problematic the play was in this game right at the end of Day 1.

Many of us use the trope of "there were other problems in the past which aren't problems now so everything is great". It's honestly terrible and is more of a sleight of hand to avoid talking about problems with a nice "everything is fine" message. Yes, there were issues with AFKers in the past, but yesterday's AFKers are today's heavy lurkers / trollers / non-participators. Not sure that I think posting a wall of sheep, voting for any train formed, or voting for people based on general sympathy vs. scumreading is that much better than being AFK to be honest.

Your last point is extremely charitable given multiple Town players asked to be lynched because they were so dissatisfied the level of play in this game, not to mention the utter lack of scumhunting or reads by most of the Town. Many people voted for a train because it existed and they didn't want to bother coming up with their own read. That explained your train on d1 as well as many of the votes on ika, SJ, and Crypt as well.

Finally, a lot of the reason Crypt got voted was because of his reputation as a good FM player. As in, the sense that Crypt must be tricking people (how would scum not kill Crypt?) and it's better not to be taken advantage of by a wily veteran like that. This is a perfect example of being right for the wrong reasons (sort of like Gyrlander sparing you during d1 because he fondly remembered how you were nice to him in FF7 or sparing FB because of his avatar -- neither of which has anything to do with this game of course). Saying the Town put much thought into the Crypt lynch (other than SW who led it) is some major revisionist history. Literally, most of the other Town basically just said, let me know who to vote for, and did so blindly.

[MattZed]

Summer 2015 wasn't years ago. Its not like the site had a long history and then started dying. The most recent wave of S-FMs following the retirement of Orpz' predecessor BorkBot started only about two years ago even so. There was a year where there were literally 0 S-FMs.

I think most players here had fun and learned something. I've given some private advice, and it's been received well. It was certainly not our most solid game, but I dont see anyone here deciding to tighten up their play bases on the thoughts of a non-partipant.

[DarknessB]

I think most players here had fun and learned something. I've given some private advice, and it's been received well. It was certainly not our most solid game, but I dont see anyone here deciding to tighten up their play bases on the thoughts of a non-partipant.

We can agree to disagree then. While I understand that being overly negative doesn't help people improve, nor does presenting an unrealistically sunny message to them. 2/3 of the Town literally did nothing but sheep any train started, spam nonsense, ask to be lynched out of boredom, and actively lurk. I'm used to seeing that in isolation (like 1-2 players per game), but the fact that the majority of the Town fell into that trap here is very alarming.

Re: being a non-participant, how this game worked out isn't making me regret that decision TBH, and you're ignoring the fact that many people become non-participants when they see this type of play. I'd suggest you separate out the validity of message being sent (which is a very fair one) from the person sending the message (whom you can certainly dislike if you want).

[MattZed]

All town still had hunches and played on them. A few trolled, yes, but most of those also tried to win, even if that didnt include long explanations.

[DarknessB]

All town still had hunches and played on them. A few trolled, yes, but most of those also tried to win, even if that didnt include long explanations.

Honestly, we're not going to agree and that's fine. It's really just a question of what people want out of S-FMs. If the answer to the question is this type of gameplay, then I guess that's what we'll see more of in the future.

[SuperJack]

Gg all this was fun! Good job with Banana MZ! And good job with Lynching Cryptonic!

[MattZed]

The trolly attitude had a few factors adding to it, namely scum encouraging it, players feeding off of each other's trolling, and the time between signing and game starting cutting into players' enthusiasm.

This is the kind of thing that can be easily stopped from escalating by having a couple players taking things very seriously like I did.

[DarknessB]

Gg all this was fun! Good job with Banana MZ! And good job with Lynching Cryptonic!

Looks like everyone wants to take the blue pill here. That's fine -- I'll stop commenting then if it's going to be a waste of my time.

[MattZed]

Gg all this was fun! Good job with Banana MZ! And good job with Lynching Cryptonic!

You were a noble town whom I knew had been falsely maligned by BC. I only wish I had had more time or a LW to express that you were one of my stronger townreads, especially post BCs flip.

[ika]

The trolly attitude had a few factors adding to it, namely scum encouraging it, players feeding off of each other's trolling, and the time between signing and game starting cutting into players' enthusiasm.

This is the kind of thing that can be easily stopped from escalating by having a couple players taking things very seriously like I did.

nobody took it serious outside of you/SW

hell even your case one me was lazy in the sense that it was boiled down to "ika cna play better but isnt" thtas not a case

[SilverWolf]

Regarding quality of play, I don't think anyone was terrible. I like a more analytical game. I crave play like Calix did in Empire, MZ did here, where people ISO, give lots of comments on the gamestate, and gave well though out reasons for scumreading someone. Then if you do have a scumread, pushing it to convince others they are scum or interacting with them, questioning them so you can get a better read or get others to get a better read on you both. I personally, don't do well with trolling. It's not my thing. I usually get scumread if I try to joke around too much. It's not that I don't like to joke around. I just like my mafia games to be a little more serious. And this is the thing about this site. It's more prone to trolling. That is why I will play but probably be a little more picky about what games or ***** more.

[SilverWolf]

nobody took it serious outside of you/SW

hell even your case one me was lazy in the sense that it was boiled down to "ika cna play better but isnt" thtas not a case

Your lynch seriously demotivated me.

[SilverWolf]

Looks like everyone wants to take the blue pill here. That's fine -- I'll stop commenting then if it's going to be a waste of my time.

I'm listening and commenting on it.

[ika]

I'm listening and commenting on it.

me too, i think the big issue is that becasue your not playing people take it less serious. @DarknessB

[SilverWolf]

You were a noble town whom I knew had been falsely maligned by BC. I only wish I had had more time or a LW to express that you were one of my stronger townreads, especially post BCs flip.

SJ was town because of his banana push and banana's vote on him. I asked him several times to explain this scumread and he never did. Unfortunately we had to lynch him to narrow down the pool of who it could be and because he wasn't helping town enough.

[SuperJack]

You were a noble town whom I knew had been falsely maligned by BC. I only wish I had had more time or a LW to express that you were one of my stronger townreads, especially post BCs flip.

I've just found it quite difficult to express myself. I really felt unmotivated this game, a like my Education studies, I could see the answer but un-explain what and how I got there.
I also found Crypts read on me annoying, but he was Scum so thats ok. And I think things between me and FB got too heated. Other than that people played quite well. And their lynch on me was Justified, even if it was being more of a lack of effort vs scum read.


Also, I just found it un-motiviating that people will observe the game and always, not participate and then criticise other people and complain about the situation, but do nothing to resolve it.

[DarknessB]

Regarding quality of play, I don't think anyone was terrible. I like a more analytical game. I crave play like Calix did in Empire, MZ did here, where people ISO, give lots of comments on the gamestate, and gave well though out reasons for scumreading someone. Then if you do have a scumread, pushing it to convince others they are scum or interacting with them, questioning them so you can get a better read or get others to get a better read on you both. I personally, don't do well with trolling. It's not my thing. I usually get scumread if I try to joke around too much. It's not that I don't like to joke around. I just like my mafia games to be a little more serious. And this is the thing about this site. It's more prone to trolling. That is why I will play but probably be a little more picky about what games or ***** more.

I'm relieved that at least one person seems to understand where I'm coming from. No one is saying we have to be super serious and not have fun, but the entire point of Forum Mafia is the dialogue / discussion. It's hard to play with people when they're just posting walls of sheep, claiming every role, giving no reads, voting without any explanation and AFKing, townreading players based on stuff that happened one year ago in another game, jumping on any train that is started, etc. I personally don't find it enjoyable, at least when it takes over the game like it did here.

Yes, I agree that this site has a trolly meta sometimes, but I feel like we're been going further in that direction as of late with some of the more analytical players taking a step back and players who were formerly a little more serious becoming far more flippant in their play.

[ika]

Your lynch seriously demotivated me.

i pmed matt after he died telling him i would take him on his bet but he convenetly changed his mind

[DarknessB]

Also, I just found it un-motiviating that people will observe the game and always, not participate and then criticise other people and complain about the situation, but do nothing to resolve it.

But see, the more an analytical player sees of this, the less likely that analytical player is to sign for a future game. No one wants to be the MattZed or SW from Death Note -- i.e. a more serious player in a sea of trolling who can barely hold the game together. The problem is cyclical.

[ika]

I'm relieved that at least one person seems to understand where I'm coming from. No one is saying we have to be super serious and not have fun, but the entire point of Forum Mafia is the dialogue / discussion. It's hard to play with people when they're just posting walls of sheep, claiming every role, voting and AFKing, townreading players based on stuff that happened one year ago in another game, jumping on any train that is started, etc. I personally don't find it enjoyable, at least when it takes over the game like it did here.

Yes, I agree that this site has a trolly meta sometimes, but I feel like we're been going further in that direction as of late with some of the more analytical players taking a step back and players who were formerly a little more serious becoming far more flippant in their play.

This i agree on too, the problem is that we cant retain our playerbase becasue there seems to be this great divide of what the standards are. I got lynched becasue i wsa "trolling" yet there are people like gyr/mesk/stealth who troll, do nothing, ect and get away with it.

Now im not saying they are bad players (cus mesk was right on sw and has shown that she can apply herself). but mattzed showed he seletivly read me based on this "standard" he had for me and becasue i was not doing it i was scum for it. a lot of people did that overall and others called me town for it. but it showed that if player X does Y they get lynched/scum read. where if player Z does Y its a "oh its what they do" (ie empire where unknwon defended mesk).

it has to be a blanket application and not jsut a slective one

[ika]

But see, the more an analytical player sees of this, the less likely that analytical player is to sign for a future game. No one wants to be the MattZed or SW from Death Note -- i.e. a more serious player in a sea of trolling who can barely hold the game together. The problem is cyclical.

in that case we need to get more anyalitcals in the game to the point where there are only 1/2 troll players and if they decide to troll they get policy lynched. by letting them live, we are allowing ti to breed.

[SuperJack]

But see, the more an analytical player sees of this, the less likely that analytical player is to sign for a future game. No one wants to be the MattZed or SW from Death Note -- i.e. a more serious player in a sea of trolling who can barely hold the game together. The problem is cyclical.

Then increase the number of analytical players, then they can set the playing board.

You don't make a team better by removing the better players.

[ika]

Then increase the number of analytical players, then they can set the playing board.

You don't make a team better by removing the better players.

hence why i tell dark to play and that sitting out constantly and complaining does not much

i mena if anything ym play here proved the point that we allow players to get away with it becasue of who they are and not an objective "this is right and this is wrong"

[DarknessB]

Then increase the number of analytical players, then they can set the playing board.

You don't make a team better by removing the better players.

Sure, it's a very tough sell to get those players to sign up for games given how they have been going lately. There's also been a creep over from analytical to a bit more freeform by some players like you and FB. No one is saying anyone should play like a robot, but I don't think anyone would argue against reads and explaining one's votes / suspicions.

[SuperJack]

Such noisy Polish Cow.

[Cryptonic]

I also found Crypts read on me annoying, but he was Scum so thats ok.

LMAO Honestly I just pulled things out of my ass to try get you to react to them.

[Cryptonic]

i mena if anything ym play here proved the point that we allow players to get away with it becasue of who they are and not an objective "this is right and this is wrong"

I'm not so sure. I mean, you got lynched d1 so I don't think you got away with doing anything. If you were playing more legitimately D1, then you might not have been a lynch target D1.

[Stealthbomber16]

This i agree on too, the problem is that we cant retain our playerbase becasue there seems to be this great divide of what the standards are. I got lynched becasue i wsa "trolling" yet there are people like gyr/mesk/stealth who troll, do nothing, ect and get away with it.

Now im not saying they are bad players (cus mesk was right on sw and has shown that she can apply herself). but mattzed showed he seletivly read me based on this "standard" he had for me and becasue i was not doing it i was scum for it. a lot of people did that overall and others called me town for it. but it showed that if player X does Y they get lynched/scum read. where if player Z does Y its a "oh its what they do" (ie empire where unknwon defended mesk).

it has to be a blanket application and not jsut a slective one

PLEASE give us 3 posts from this game where you actually scumhunted and posted reads and I will actually have a conversation with you. I'm extremely disgusted in your play more than anyone this game because you were actively hurting the town by causing more chaos than good. I lynched you because you were derailing the thread and you would be a huge train every day past that, and that is still a lynch that, if the game played out and I could make one change to my style, I would do, because I believe that town was better off without your shit.

I'm not so sure. I mean, you got lynched d1 so I don't think you got away with doing anything. If you were playing more legitimately D1, then you might not have been a lynch target D1.

If ika were playing semi-legitimately like gyr or mesk day 1 I would not have tunneled him so hard and would not have resulted in a wasted day scum-reading SilverWolf.

[Stealthbomber16]

Hell, give us 3 posts where you explain a vote. I'll work with that.

[ika]

cool want to amkea voting block?

pecit: silverwolf confirmed cit claim party block inbound

again, was more serious then not about the town bloc idea which you were going at

Your reason about 220 is faulty to use here. If he shows promise as scum it would not also apply to town!sj.

pointed out faulty reason to mattzeed

shes not home atm. but i know she will respond when she gets back



town for the self admittance of her thinking she is doing jack shit when she is not.

gave read

also scum!sw would prob be trying to buddy me more at this point instead of outright defending me.

explain read more

this is from the first 5 pages alone stealth, i gave resonss sevral times over it was POE as well ill keep going but this isjsut the beigning

[ika]

PLEASE give us 3 posts from this game where you actually scumhunted and posted reads and I will actually have a conversation with you. I'm extremely disgusted in your play more than anyone this game because you were actively hurting the town by causing more chaos than good. I lynched you because you were derailing the thread and you would be a huge train every day past that, and that is still a lynch that, if the game played out and I could make one change to my style, I would do, because I believe that town was better off without your shit.



If ika were playing semi-legitimately like gyr or mesk day 1 I would not have tunneled him so hard and would not have resulted in a wasted day scum-reading SilverWolf.

theres my reads form the first 5 pages.

and done in more then 3 posts.

the scum read on SW is your own fault or not listenign to me

[ika]

Poe leads to Matt or firebringer I have vary town reads on the rest

Break is soon so I can post better maybe

You know that I'm not just doing it for lols. Sorry if I brushed you off with my earlier post. I was making some bin tags so I could not respond proper and was trying to rush it.

I ended up eating lunch and trying to figure out how to say it to you but I have been doing this shit post for a reason.

A) I will by lynched day 1
-this makes me flip cot and I have my reads
-I can not become Kira's apprentice
-everyone has to deal with you being a potential Kira recuit when there is a no kill

B) I don't get lynched
-Kira won't touch be because of the shit I did and could be lynched off it
-Kira won't touch you because you have been the only one I have not shit posted to.

Here the biggest thing though: I've been the only one able to read you. Empire everyone called you town and never even batted an eye to you on being neutral. Now that's the entire reason why I continued to shit post, cus I say you are town for your play and reactions in general. If I was Kira I would try and want to recuit you just like you would do the same. But here's the thing, it would be against my own wincon to try to get you to recuit me so unless you are pulling the single game to fool me. I am playing to wincon and protecting you.

Yes people could maybe figure your Kira or l can check you if you do but I know how you play and by doing this I am forcing Kira to deal with us. That is unless town does first in which case I can watch you play.

What I'm reading here

Is that you're confirming yourself as town by acting scummy.

What the hell?

and heres the post where you even read my post that was game related and full of content and explained my reads

@Stealthbomber16

[SilverWolf]

If ika were playing semi-legitimately like gyr or mesk day 1 I would not have tunneled him so hard and would not have resulted in a wasted day scum-reading SilverWolf.

What does your tunnel on me have to do with ika? He was townreading me and flipped town. If anything you should of looked at that because ika can read me better than anyone else.

[ika]

What does your tunnel on me have to do with ika? He was townreading me and flipped town. If anything you should of looked at that because ika can read me better than anyone else.

this. hes jsut trying to abolish his shit play and not being able to read you proper.

[Mesk514]

GG WP, happy silver was town!

[Stealthbomber16]

again, was more serious then not about the town bloc idea which you were going at

Not reads

pointed out faulty reason to mattzeed

Not reads

gave read

Okay, one read.

explain read more

this is from the first 5 pages alone stealth, i gave resonss sevral times over it was POE as well ill keep going but this isjsut the beigning

and heres the post where you even read my post that was game related and full of content and explained my reads
First one is reads
Second one is complete shit.
@Stealthbomber16

What does your tunnel on me have to do with ika? He was townreading me and flipped town. If anything you should of looked at that because ika can read me better than anyone else.

The reason I really bothered to ISO you was because you were so adamantly defending someone who wasn't contributing anything to the discussion with a mostly meta defense.

this. hes jsut trying to abolish his shit play and not being able to read you proper.

I'm willing to admit that I screwed up my read on SW. Anyone can see that. No point in trying to defend it. This is between your terrible trolling play and my policy lynch.

GG WP, happy silver was town!

if SW was second kira i would've quit the site immediately to hide my shame

[ika]

town bloc is reads, if you dont accpet them as reads thats not my problem, you asked for the post i gave you the post. if your just going to snipe it with "not reads" or not have the dicussion after doing your task you have justified my points and are not willing to even dicussus it becasue you have already set these standardxs of what is and what is not reads

have fun

[SilverWolf]

GG WP, happy silver was town!

I'm glad you were too!!

[SilverWolf]

The reason I really bothered to ISO you was because you were so adamantly defending someone who wasn't contributing anything to the discussion with a mostly meta defense.

You have to understand that I've played in many a game with ika and I have a fairly good record of reading him. I will defend him to the death if I think he's town.

This is between your terrible trolling play and my policy lynch.

I have no idea why you are singling ika out while ignoring the trolling and bad play of other people.

[Firebringer]

Overall I'm pretty disappointed to see FB is even more of a lurker now than when I left

How was I lurking?

[Firebringer]

This i agree on too, the problem is that we cant retain our playerbase becasue there seems to be this great divide of what the standards are. I got lynched becasue i wsa "trolling" yet there are people like gyr/mesk/stealth who troll, do nothing, ect and get away with it.

Now im not saying they are bad players (cus mesk was right on sw and has shown that she can apply herself). but mattzed showed he seletivly read me based on this "standard" he had for me and becasue i was not doing it i was scum for it. a lot of people did that overall and others called me town for it. but it showed that if player X does Y they get lynched/scum read. where if player Z does Y its a "oh its what they do" (ie empire where unknwon defended mesk).

it has to be a blanket application and not jsut a slective one

Dude you didn't simply get lynched because you were trolling at least two people legit had scumreads on u

[Firebringer]

I had most posts in this game lol but I guess I lurked hard

[BananaCucho]

BTW the ika lynch was bullshit lol. I really wanted MZ but had to settle for low hanging fruit

[Gyrlander]

Your first S-FM was something like 3-4 games before mine in 2015 which is years ago, lol. Also, I'm not sure I'd characterize late 2016 as being one of our best runs given the infamous Mafia Wars 3.0 freakout which occurred, Empire with all the hosting mistakes / issues, Lazy with the turbo lynches / rage, and now this game. I'd say that's a number of problematic games in a relatively short period. You yourself lamented how problematic the play was in this game right at the end of Day 1.

Many of us use the trope of "there were other problems in the past which aren't problems now so everything is great". It's honestly terrible and is more of a sleight of hand to avoid talking about problems with a nice "everything is fine" message. Yes, there were issues with AFKers in the past, but yesterday's AFKers are today's heavy lurkers / trollers / non-participators. Not sure that I think posting a wall of sheep, voting for any train formed, or voting for people based on general sympathy vs. scumreading is that much better than being AFK to be honest.

Your last point is extremely charitable given multiple Town players asked to be lynched because they were so dissatisfied the level of play in this game, not to mention the utter lack of scumhunting or reads by most of the Town. Many people voted for a train because it existed and they didn't want to bother coming up with their own read. That explained your train on d1 as well as many of the votes on ika, SJ, and Crypt as well.

Finally, a lot of the reason Crypt got voted was because of his reputation as a good FM player. As in, the sense that Crypt must be tricking people (how would scum not kill Crypt?) and it's better not to be taken advantage of by a wily veteran like that. This is a perfect example of being right for the wrong reasons (sort of like Gyrlander sparing you during d1 because he fondly remembered how you were nice to him in FF7 or sparing FB because of his avatar -- neither of which has anything to do with this game of course). Saying the Town put much thought into the Crypt lynch (other than SW who led it) is some major revisionist history. Literally, most of the other Town basically just said, let me know who to vote for, and did so blindly.

You surely have to learn that out of 10 things that I say, 9 are lies. I had my reasons yo town read FB, but as I was being continously scum-read and annoyed for just a little and stupid thing I said It was because of his avatar so everyone would just shut up.

About MZ, I don't remember that part. Still, pretty sure I had my reasons. I do not forgive players because of random things.