S-FM 220: Empire

[Sino]

Sino you keep attacking arguments against you that are extremely blatant. Although, I give you points because you directly attacked me in the FM as well.

I guess that's how i scumhunt, attacking other's arguments to see which ones are genuine and which ones are fabricated.

[Unknown1234]

I see that you've been noting down townie attributes of players. Can you collate that into a single post since you seem to be more focused on town-hunting rather than scum-hunting and I'd like to see your results there?

I'm a bit iffy on you. I agree with the points that you make on town-leans, which makes me want to town-lean you, but I'm also aware that you do that a lot as scum since you're informed.

Why do you feel that I've been Town-hunting more?

I think my main town-reads are SilverW

[MattZed]

Are you sCum MZ?

No.

[MattZed]

-vote RLVG

Secondpassing has left, so I am going to shift over to RLVG by suggesting a possible no-lync and using the neutral to kill, as well as constant excuses and the fact he seems to be way too disengaged.

SP is here. Why you trying to kill that train's momentum right as we have him here for interrogation?

[Calix]

I'm not complaining about the length of the game. I enjoy reading long games. I do not enjoy people saying that I haven't done anything useful and calling me useless when they didn't consider the position I am in. You can at least give me another hour to catch up or something.

Stop talking, start note-taking. "Defending yourself" can wait.

Don't respond to this either. I'm just calling you out on your latent stupidity in slowing yourself down by making these empty comments.

Great scum-play if you're delaying things, however!

[SilverWolf]

Also @Silwerwolf, can you please point out how i was "overly defensive" please ?

Sure your first two posts responding to Unknown's comments about you where you accused him of throwing shade and said it wasn't productive. It seemed out of place since you are usually pretty mellow in games from what I remember of your town game. I quoted them in an early post. I can track them down again, but the ISO function on this game sucks so I'd rather not unless you really need them.

[SuperJack]

lol I don't actually have an idea of who might be pocketing whom because I haven't been following associations too closely yet, but my instinct is definitely that there's too much agreement.

Yet I saw no one go "Yeh I agree with you x Sino is scummy *votes*

Each person had their own reason to vote.

Why do they have to be pocketed, and it not just be Sino being very scummy?

[SilverWolf]

I'm not complaining about the length of the game. I enjoy reading long games. I do not enjoy people saying that I haven't done anything useful and calling me useless when they didn't consider the position I am in. You can at least give me another hour to catch up or something.

Sure, that's why I haven't moved my vote to you.

[Sino]

Sure your first two posts responding to Unknown's comments about you where you accused him of throwing shade and said it wasn't productive. It seemed out of place since you are usually pretty mellow in games from what I remember of your town game. I quoted them in an early post. I can track them down again, but the ISO function on this game sucks so I'd rather not unless you really need them.

Thanks, i don't really need them.

I don't feel like that was overly defensive, just annoyed at Unknown going for me right away when he still had a lot to catch up.

[Calix]

lol I don't actually have an idea of who might be pocketing whom because I haven't been following associations too closely yet, but my instinct is definitely that there's too much agreement.

It could also be the result of mind melds, but it's plausible that there is one scum among the circle-jerk. That's a rule of thumb for me.

Why do you feel that I've been Town-hunting more?

I think my main town-reads are SilverW

The comments that I remember from you are mostly town-reads and saying "this is a good post/ I like Y because they're making new points" etc etc over your scum-reads.

I don't really agree with your RLVG case. He's suggested No-Lynches before as both alignments and he's often weird/ useless so I think your argument is not AI. If he's scum, it's not for the reasons you have given.

[SuperJack]

No.

I feel that you have cut your reply as short as you can, to avoid saying to much and slipping.
Why would a town person not want to give us more words to tell from. Unless there where infect scum
Also, Scum are known to lie.

=)

-vote MattZed

[Sino]

Yet I saw no one go "Yeh I agree with you x Sino is scummy *votes*

Each person had their own reason to vote.

Why do they have to be pocketed, and it not just be Sino being very scummy?

Yep, that's absolutely not how sp voted me.

[MattZed]

Yet I saw no one go "Yeh I agree with you x Sino is scummy *votes*

Each person had their own reason to vote.

Why do they have to be pocketed, and it not just be Sino being very scummy?

I'm not talking about the Sino train. In fact, that's not really where I get my suspicion of pocketing; if anything, that train seems like lazy scum trying to tack on votes. The pocketing is from weirdly-building consensuses, like we're seeing between Unknown and Silverwolf, myself and Calix, etc.

[Sino]

I don't really agree with your RLVG case. He's suggested No-Lynches before as both alignments and he's often weird/ useless so I think your argument is not AI. If he's scum, it's not for the reasons you have given.

Just as a note, you did ask us not to use meta on you, but you use it on us ?

[SuperJack]

The only thing i have to say is "lol he seems upset the neutral might side with town" is just weak.

Well, Obviously it is going to be weak, we have little to go from on D1.
But sometimes, Scum can get upset after they realise that the setup is set against them. (to the point where they get annoyed by it publically)

[Calix]

I don't like Sino chasing up everyone who ever voted for him. He is way too reactive for my liking and seems tense (not quoting because the ISO function sucks).

I feel that you have cut your reply as short as you can, to avoid saying to much and slipping.
Why would a town person not want to give us more words to tell from. Unless there where infect scum
Also, Scum are known to lie.

=)

[vote]MattZed

wut

[MattZed]

I feel that you have cut your reply as short as you can, to avoid saying to much and slipping.
Why would a town person not want to give us more words to tell from. Unless there where infect scum
Also, Scum are known to lie.

=)

-vote MattZed

You are completely strawing my point. I'm not voting SP because he gave an answer I can twist to see from a scum perspective, but rather because it was anti-town.

[RLVG]

I don't really agree with your RLVG case. He's suggested No-Lynches before as both alignments and he's often weird/ useless so I think your argument is not AI. If he's scum, it's not for the reasons you have given.

Ironically you spoke about meta earlier today lol.

[SuperJack]

I'm not talking about the Sino train. In fact, that's not really where I get my suspicion of pocketing; if anything, that train seems like lazy scum trying to tack on votes. The pocketing is from weirdly-building consensuses, like we're seeing between Unknown and Silverwolf, myself and Calix, etc.

that ball is red
that ball is red
that ball is red

OMG THEY HAVE BEEN CONVERTED.

Or the ball is red so everyone comes to same conclusion.

It's a pretty weak point to say they have been pocketed. SP's behaviour is obvious to everyone hopefully. I've just not joined it as I think there is enough pressure atm.

[deathworlds]

I feel that you have cut your reply as short as you can, to avoid saying to much and slipping.
Why would a town person not want to give us more words to tell from. Unless there where infect scum
Also, Scum are known to lie.

=)

-vote MattZed

I can't tell if this is troll or not.

[SilverWolf]

yup im town

if you were to right now guess who the scum team was and who the neutral was who would it be? i dont need reaosns

pedit: god so amny posts

I have no idea. MattZed, Secondpassing, Sino have all hit my radar at one point or another this game. No clue who the neutral is.

[Calix]

Just as a note, you did ask us not to use meta on you, but you use it on us ?

I have evidence for my assertions. It is objectively true that RLVG has made those comments as both alignments. It is not a meta-read to say that a certain behaviour is NAI for a player because it's not being used to form a read, only disprove an argument.

Your "meta", on the other hand, was pure bullshit designed to throw shade on me.

[Unknown1234]

SP is here. Why you trying to kill that train's momentum right as we have him here for interrogation?

When did I kill the trains momentum? He said he was going to catch up, so I was going to let him catch up and move on.

I don't like your attitude. It's as bad as mine.

[Unknown1234]

Jacks vote is as bad as Secondpassing. Atleast SP didn't try for some hullshit reasoning.

[RLVG]

I have evidence for my assertions. It is objectively true that RLVG has made those comments as both alignments. It is not a meta-read to say that a certain behaviour is NAI for a player because it's not being used to form a read, only disprove an argument.

Your "meta", on the other hand, was pure bullshit designed to throw shade on me.

Hmm, while this makes sense - it's still a form of meta and while not used to form a read, the opposite is also true : it can't be used that way to form said read if the statement is to be true.
#mindfuck

[deathworlds]

Jacks vote is as bad as Secondpassing. Atleast SP didn't try for some hullshit reasoning.

Bullshit reasoning > No reasoning?

At least they are trying if they are bullshitting.

[MattZed]

that ball is red
that ball is red
that ball is red

OMG THEY HAVE BEEN CONVERTED.

Or the ball is red so everyone comes to same conclusion.

It's a pretty weak point to say they have been pocketed. SP's behaviour is obvious to everyone hopefully. I've just not joined it as I think there is enough pressure atm.

*sigh* Why is Calix the pleasant one right now?

You continue to portray my thoughts with absurd oversimplifications. I haven't argued anyone is pocketed; I'm saying something doesn't seem right.

[Unknown1234]

It could also be the result of mind melds, but it's plausible that there is one scum among the circle-jerk. That's a rule of thumb for me.



The comments that I remember from you are mostly town-reads and saying "this is a good post/ I like Y because they're making new points" etc etc over your scum-reads.

I don't really agree with your RLVG case. He's suggested No-Lynches before as both alignments and he's often weird/ useless so I think your argument is not AI. If he's scum, it's not for the reasons you have given.

He's no engaged and hasn't been involved in the game yet has been here most of the time. He was lurking as much as Secondpassing was in a way, maybe not the obvious way but the fact he isn't doing anything. If that made sense.

I don't like his excuses either and how he asked if we were going to let the Neutral control our kills.

[MattZed]

When did I kill the trains momentum? He said he was going to catch up, so I was going to let him catch up and move on.

I don't like your attitude. It's as bad as mine.

And reducing pressure helps a person catch up because...?

I'm not saying you don't have a point about putting attention elsewhere. I'm just saying your strategy is wrong and that you should put your vote back on SP if you're town/neut, lol.

[SuperJack]

I feel that Mattzed is using weak and easy ways to look like he is scum hunting. So far his asking of scum, and then his omg all dat pocketing.

-vote MattZed

And yeh, this Day I'm Serious. And I will be trying hard, mostly to show people that I am no longer that useless day 1 town that all he is good for is a PL/Quick lynch.
I want to lynch a scum day 1, and it be from my own scum hunting that its done.

[Unknown1234]

Bullshit reasoning > No reasoning?

At least they are trying if they are bullshitting.

I mean that I don't like how he tried to justify a terrible vote.

[RLVG]

I don't like his excuses either and how he asked if we were going to let the Neutral control our kills.

My question on letting the neutral control the kills, is based on my knowledge, at the time, that the neutral would win with the town if we did not lynch the emperor and/or the town leader.
A re-read proved that to be untrue since the town had to kill the neutral and there's no secondary win condition.

[Calix]

*sigh* Why is Calix the pleasant one right now?

You continue to portray my thoughts with absurd oversimplifications. I haven't argued anyone is pocketed; I'm saying something doesn't seem right.

It's your turn to try working with me, MattZed.

I'm going to jot down my thoughts here. Currently I have scum-leans on Sino, secondpassing and deathworlds (he has minimal thread presence and seems content to make side comments without getting stuck in the discussion)

Unknown is town or scum trying to curry favour by pocketing players. Leaning towards the former but the latter is well within Unknown's scum range.

I have town-leans on Mesk, SW, ika, MZ to an extent.

Everyone else is null.

[MattZed]

I feel that Mattzed is using weak and easy ways to look like he is scum hunting. So far his asking of scum, and then his omg all dat pocketing.

-vote MattZed

And yeh, this Day I'm Serious. And I will be trying hard, mostly to show people that I am no longer that useless day 1 town that all he is good for is a PL/Quick lynch.
I want to lynch a scum day 1, and it be from my own scum hunting that its done.

If you were doing real scumhunting you would have come up with an argument that would have convinced at least someone by now. Right now, you can't even persuade the people who are a bit suspicious of me to vote me. You miss the entire point. People who are actually reading me know I've spent a lot of time talking about how to deal with the neutral in this multi-faction game, and may have taken issue on my approach. You, however, don't comprehend what my focus has been and are instead strawing on a line of questioning no one else cares about.

Your reasoning is fake. Get real or get hanged.

[Sino]

I'm placing my vote here for now :

-vote SilwerWolf

Her vote just seemed oportunistic, calling me overly defensive, when she did town read me for exactly the same thing in Fringe.

[deathworlds]

It's your turn to try working with me, MattZed.

I'm going to jot down my thoughts here. Currently I have scum-leans on Sino, secondpassing and deathworlds (he has minimal thread presence and seems content to make side comments without getting stuck in the discussion)

Unknown is town or scum trying to curry favour by pocketing players. Leaning towards the former but the latter is well within Unknown's scum range.

I have town-leans on Mesk, SW, ika, MZ to an extent.

Everyone else is null.

Watching some pro starcraft games atm, ill contribute more later.

[Calix]

He's no engaged and hasn't been involved in the game yet has been here most of the time. He was lurking as much as Secondpassing was in a way, maybe not the obvious way but the fact he isn't doing anything. If that made sense.

I don't like his excuses either and how he asked if we were going to let the Neutral control our kills.

Active lurking is the term you want.

Passive play is the term you want.

They aren't terrible arguments and I can see how you would conclude that but I'm still not that convinced.
I'm glad to see this change in attitude. However I think you're focusing on the wrong person.

My question on letting the neutral control the kills, is based on my knowledge, at the time, that the neutral would win with the town if we did not lynch the emperor and/or the town leader.
A re-read proved that to be untrue since the town had to kill the neutral and there's no secondary win condition.

However I would like RLVG to comment on the game and not himself because I'm not reading these bland, boring posts by him, lol.

[Unknown1234]

And reducing pressure helps a person catch up because...?

I'm not saying you don't have a point about putting attention elsewhere. I'm just saying your strategy is wrong and that you should put your vote back on SP if you're town/neut, lol.

I've said this before, but it's the same way I felt about the Sino train. Everyone voted him so he spent his entire time discrediting his train instead of actually scum-hunting. Building up a train releases more frustration from town and makes them feel discouraged. I speak from experience.

[Sino]

It's your turn to try working with me, MattZed.

I'm going to jot down my thoughts here. Currently I have scum-leans on Sino, secondpassing and deathworlds (he has minimal thread presence and seems content to make side comments without getting stuck in the discussion)

Unknown is town or scum trying to curry favour by pocketing players. Leaning towards the former but the latter is well within Unknown's scum range.

I have town-leans on Mesk, SW, ika, MZ to an extent.

Everyone else is null.

Just curious to know how to can town lean on Mesk, and not just null read her.

[Calix]

I'm placing my vote here for now :

-vote SilwerWolf

Her vote just seemed oportunistic, calling me overly defensive, when she did town read me for exactly the same thing in Fringe.

Triple OMGUS. You are on a roll.

[secondpassing]

Before anyone gets even more confused at my play:

-vote Gyrlander

Because I never scum read Sino.

[Unknown1234]

Mesk has that vibe that you get from her that really gives you a sense of Town. I don't disagree with Calix's read.

[RLVG]

I'm placing my vote here for now :

-vote SilwerWolf

Her vote just seemed oportunistic, calling me overly defensive, when she did town read me for exactly the same thing in Fringe.

Honestly, all of the votes on you is oportunistic.
You also mispelled Silver with silWer.

[Unknown1234]

Before anyone gets even more confused at my play:

-vote Gyrlander

Because I never scum read Sino.

You voted the host. I hope it's purposeful.

[Sino]

Triple OMGUS. You are on a roll.

How about you read my posts for once ?

Mesk has that vibe that you get from her that really gives you a sense of Town. I don't disagree with Calix's read.

From one post ?

[MattZed]

It's your turn to try working with me, MattZed.

I'm going to jot down my thoughts here. Currently I have scum-leans on Sino, secondpassing and deathworlds (he has minimal thread presence and seems content to make side comments without getting stuck in the discussion)

Unknown is town or scum trying to curry favour by pocketing players. Leaning towards the former but the latter is well within Unknown's scum range.

I have town-leans on Mesk, SW, ika, MZ to an extent.

Everyone else is null.

To return the favor, townlean on you and Sino. You for agreeing with me (perhaps displaying actual town thought, as well as pro-town moves), and Sino because I've clearly misread him looking back.

Scumlean on SP, SJ, and SW. SP and SJ for the aforementioned reasons, SW because I found it suspicious she jumped onto the Sino train while she found both myself and Sino to be viable candidates, while I don't recall a strong case for choosing Sino over me.

RLVG might actually be a townlean for at least not creating useless WIFOM.

Null on Mesk+yzb atm from too few posts.

I want to townread DW on meta, but frankly I worry that that's just because I like the guy and he hasn't done anything too substantial yet. Instincts say I'm giving him too much credit.

I haven't paid much attention to Unknown's discussion threads. Will probably be worth reading back later to get a read on him.

[Unknown1234]

Honestly, all of the votes on you is oportunistic.
You also mispelled Silver with silWer.

Why don't you say how the votes are opportunistic, and offer up a better option.

I really don't get the Town motivation from this. Maybe I'm a bit worked up but still..

[Calix]

Is it just me or are people not really giving their reads on me much?

I'm very active yet like, two people have talked about their read on me. I'm curious as to why this is the case.

[Unknown1234]

I actually have no read on you. Same with IKA. I'm not getting anything.

[RLVG]

However I would like RLVG to comment on the game and not himself because I'm not reading these bland, boring posts by him, lol.

Comment on the game?

Alright, here's a showerthought.

If Majority is 50% as stated in the setup and not 51%, then both the neutral and the red scum can win, since there's no "X wins over the other in tie situation".

Evil Team: Gain 50% majority in number of players.
Corrupted Royal Assasin: If one of your target gets lynched OR if the Evil Team is dead your win condition turns becomes getting 50% majority.